Belkar

[Shadowscale]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise? What he did to crystal and the other rogues was amazing. His build seems fairly optimized.

[Gray Mage]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise? What he did to crystal and the other rogues was amazing. His build seems fairly optimized.

The answer is, he isn't. He is like this because of a mix of Rich not caring about crunch that way and fighting a lot of low level mooks. His build is probably one of the most unoptimized of the whole comic.

Edit: More to the point, he's a pure melee combatant with a racial str penalty, using TWF without sources of bonus damage and doesn't have the wis to use even one of his spells.

[SowZ]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise? What he did to crystal and the other rogues was amazing. His build seems fairly optimized.

His sheer number of attacks and ability to reliably do at least 7 or so damage an attack, combined with good AC, makes him really good at fighting hordes of level 1 warriors. He is not good at much else. Notice how thoroughly Roy trounced him in their mock-duel.

Against the hobgoblins, it wasn't as hard as it looked. Past a certain level, ECL 1 enemies can't really do anything to you. It was the perfect set up for him. And Roy would have fared better in that encounter, anyway.

Defeating Miko was mostly him manipulating her emotions and being pretty clever when he has to be.

The thieves guild was a more impressive feat. But for that, he had the combination of element of surprise, the damage Haley had already done, and he got lucky. Haley did more damage in that fight, anyway.

Finally, Belkar is an okay character in OOTS land which builds characters with about the optimization of WOTC's sample characters. These are people, not character sheets, so feats and skill points are chosen organically, not plotted out ahead of time for maximum efficiency. (Although I often wonder why that is in 'game mechanics are literal' style worlds. One would think there would be people whose entire job depended on advising the best build options and it would be a field of science that improved over time. But that would make it hard or impossible to tell most stories.)

[Jak]

I think he must have a very high Dex and weapon finesse to be hitting all the time, which is reasonable if he didn't bother to put anything into wisdom. Maybe he's a strongheart halfling for the extra feat? Idk though, I haven't ever done any ranger builds.

[SowZ]

I think he must have a very high Dex and weapon finesse to be hitting all the time, which is reasonable if he didn't bother to put anything into wisdom. Maybe he's a strongheart halfling for the extra feat? Idk though, I haven't ever done any ranger builds.

The only real mechanical reason to go TWF ranger is so you can focus on Strength over Dex. It is one of the few ways for dual wielders to even remotely keep up with Two Handers in the damage department without sneak attack.

[Jak]

The only real mechanical reason to go TWF ranger is so you can focus on Strength over Dex. It is one of the few ways for dual wielders to even remotely keep up with Two Handers in the damage department without sneak attack.

Good point, but then he's just working against himself being a halfling. You're right, his damage doesn't make sense. Unless he picked up that Dex to damage feat from ToB, but even then, I don't think he'd be doing that much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise? What he did to crystal and the other rogues was amazing. His build seems fairly optimized.

The Class and Level Geekery thread has part of a statblock for Belkar that could help answer this question. However, Belkar really isn't all that optimized. Most of where he looks is good is against low-level mooks and the like. Until recently, he barely utilized most of his class features.

[theNater]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise? What he did to crystal and the other rogues was amazing. His build seems fairly optimized.
His build is significantly more optimized for melee combat than the rogues, simply by virtue of being a ranger/barbarian instead of a rogue. I ran the numbers once, and Belkar's BAB and HP(from class) ended up being higher than Bozzok's, despite Bozzok's level advantage. Just having a class appropriate to the situation is very meaningful.

[Shadowscale]

His build is significantly more optimized for melee combat than the rogues, simply by virtue of being a ranger/barbarian instead of a rogue. I ran the numbers once, and Belkar's BAB and HP(from class) ended up being higher than Bozzok's, despite Bozzok's level advantage. Just having a class appropriate to the situation is very meaningful.

Didn't Bozzok have fighter levels?

[theNater]

Didn't Bozzok have fighter levels?
Nobody ever says he does, and his total level would have to be insanely high for him to have enough rogue levels to backstab Haley and have fighter levels on top of that. So, probably not.

[factotum]

The thieves guild was a more impressive feat. But for that, he had the combination of element of surprise, the damage Haley had already done, and he got lucky.

I wouldn't say it was that impressive--given Belkar's in the region of level 15, and most of the people he were facing were relatively low level mooks, you'd expect him to carve through them without too much trouble. His fight against Bozzok and Crystal was a bit more impressive, but even then, I believe Rangers get a better BAB than rogues do, which would have helped him a lot; also he was explicitly fighting defensively and didn't go for the jugular until Bozzok ran off.

[Kish]

Can someone explain to me how Belkar is so crazy efficient in melee crunch wise?
Would "The question indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the comic" be a helpful answer? No? Never mind then.

[littlebum2002]

Don't forget he was probably also raging at the time.

[theNater]

Don't forget he was probably also raging at the time.
In OotS, rage is an emotional state as well as a mechanical one. Belkar was not angry, so he was probably not raging.

[runeghost]

Finally, Belkar is an okay character in OOTS land which builds characters with about the optimization of WOTC's sample characters. These are people, not character sheets, so feats and skill points are chosen organically, not plotted out ahead of time for maximum efficiency. (Although I often wonder why that is in 'game mechanics are literal' style worlds. One would think there would be people whose entire job depended on advising the best build options and it would be a field of science that improved over time. But that would make it hard or impossible to tell most stories.)

I suspect The Giant's opinion of what we used to call "min-maxing" builds can be seen in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Personally, I think once you're building a character solely around tactical effectiveness, instead of "what this imaginary person would do", you're moving away from roleplaying and into a tactical combat game. (Which can still be fun, of course.)

[littlebum2002]

In OotS, rage is an emotional state as well as a mechanical one. Belkar was not angry, so he was probably not raging.

True dat..........

[MrMercury]

1) "DM fiat" aka Rich wants Belkar to be effective
2) Belkar's build could potentially be decent still if he took the right feats

[Jay R]

Good point, but then he's just working against himself being a halfling.

You're thinking like a player, not a character. He was born a halfling; that's not a decision.

Muggsy Bogues did not decide to be a short basketball player. He's a short man who decided to play basketball.

Similarly, Belkar never got to ask himself, "Would this Ranger build be better as a human or dwarf?" He is a halfling; he decided to be a Ranger. So he'll be the best Ranger he can be.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

We are talking about a person who would lobby to have slaying the innocent replace baseball as Americas past-time. Imagine a build made for just that. of course he can lay on the damage

[2.5 cats]

Worth noting that rangers get a bonus (+3 or +4 IIRC) on both to-hit and to-damage vs. their "favored enemy." I'm just about positive that Belkar's #1 favored enemy is humans. Factor in those bonuses and the two-weapon thing gets really nasty really quickly.

[SirKazum]

Never thought about humans being a favorite enemy... makes sense, though.

Also, for anyone questioning why Belkar would choose to be a TWF ranger, rather than an archery ranger, it bears remembering that the OOTS technically started their career in 3.0 edition, not 3.5 (since the very first comic is all about switching over to 3.5). Back then, IIRC, the ONLY option for rangers was TWF. Also, they got d10 hit dice, and Small characters like Belkar could use Medium-sized weapons. So, while still far from optimized, Belkar's build at least made more sense as a 3.0 character... until he got screwed over by the shift to 3.5 (which is the whole joke of that first comic).

[Keltest]

Never thought about humans being a favorite enemy... makes sense, though.

Also, for anyone questioning why Belkar would choose to be a TWF ranger, rather than an archery ranger, it bears remembering that the OOTS technically started their career in 3.0 edition, not 3.5 (since the very first comic is all about switching over to 3.5). Back then, IIRC, the ONLY option for rangers was TWF. Also, they got d10 hit dice, and Small characters like Belkar could use Medium-sized weapons. So, while still far from optimized, Belkar's build at least made more sense as a 3.0 character... until he got screwed over by the shift to 3.5 (which is the whole joke of that first comic).

Also, who ever heard of a Halfling using a longbow?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, who ever heard of a Halfling using a longbow?

Well, the Hobbits sent archers to help reinforce the men of Arnor.

[Emperordaniel]

Well, the Hobbits sent archers to help reinforce the men of Arnor.

If I recall, there were also more than a few hobbit archers in the resistance that sprung up to end the Scouring of the Shire (Wormtongue, as I remember, was shot in the back by a bunch of them when he tried to run away after he killed Sharkey/Saruman).

[Keltest]

Well, the Hobbits sent archers to help reinforce the men of Arnor.

I assume those hobbit archers were not using 6 ft tall longbows.

[SirKazum]

Well they *could* be shooting from atop a stool or a stepladder :smalltongue:

[littlebum2002]

According to Wikipedia, a longbow is a bow which is approximately as tall as the person shooting it. And D&D has stats for small longbows. So I imagine a halfling would use a 3' tall longbow.

[Jay R]

According to Vaarsuvius's theory, Belkar's Favored Enemy must be anything he doesn't lust after. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)

And does anybody recall what fighting skills are included in the Sexy Shoeless God of War template?

[Keltest]

According to Wikipedia, a longbow is a bow which is approximately as tall as the person shooting it. And D&D has stats for small longbows. So I imagine a halfling would use a 3' tall longbow.

I believe they have a name for those. Shortbows.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe they have a name for those. Shortbows.

The post you responded to was just about archery in general, so I that counts.

[ti'esar]

According to Vaarsuvius's theory, Belkar's Favored Enemy must be anything he doesn't lust after. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)

That theory's been pretty discredited for a long time.

[veti]

Nah, Belkar's favoured enemy is 'mooks'.

Probably followed by 'things with more heads than they should have, because chimeras and hydras just annoy me'.

What, you thought he got that good by following the rules?

[Jay R]

Well, the Hobbits sent archers to help reinforce the men of Arnor.

"While there was still a King at Ribroast, the boggies stayed nominally his subjects, and to the last battle at Ribroast with the Slumlord of Borax, they sent some snipers, though who they sided with is unclear."
-- Bored of the Rings, Harvard Lampoon

Admit it - Belkar is more like a boggie than a hobbit.

[littlebum2002]

I believe they have a name for those. Shortbows.

Nope. They have Small-sized shortbows as well.

A longbow is just a bow which is as tall as you are. You shouldn't expect someone who is 7' tall to use the same longbow as someone who is 5' tall, so the same applies to someone who is 3' tall. If a 3' tall creature has a longbow, it's 3' tall. If they have a shortbow, it's 1.5' tall.

[Psyren]

His build runs on pure plot/fiat. If it helps you rationalize it, he is basically a 4e ranger (high-damage striker) dropped into a 3.5 world. He cracks a joke about this himself in SSDT. That or just imagine a whole bunch of extremely powerful homebrew feats.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

In the Thieves Guild fight, remember that rogues only have D6 hit dice, and they probably don't have high CON modifiers. Plus (from OOPC) Jenny's about level 3, and I'd guess most of the rest of them aren't much higher (Hank, Bozzok and Crystal are the main exceptions, possibly also Yor), so most probably only have mid-teens in hit points at best.

Crystal's Haley's level (somewhere around 14/15 at the time, according to the classes/levels thread), but still may only have around 50-60 hit points (max for 1st + an average of 3.5 per level after with no CON modifier puts her at about 55), and, when Belkar "takes it to overtime" in #613, might have already lost a couple from Haley's sap and kick in the bathroom a few strips before.

He immediately connects with both daggers (Crystal's got a wound on her left cheek and on her body when Celia flies Haley away), and hits at least three times (there's 6 Slash sound effects, which usually indicates a successful hit, and Crystal gets a new cross wound on her right chin, her body wound goes from a line to a cross and there's a single line wound on her left boot) before he trips her up and pounces on her to knock her down to 0 in #616.

All Belkar really needs to do is reliably put out something like 6-8 hp of damage per dagger strike.