Teleportation in air

[Elkad]

Came up tonight. Well actually we rolled right by it, but now I see some evidence we may have done it wrong.


Flying familiar (Imp) used Benign Transposition wand from 80' in the air to get out of a sticky spot by trading places with a party member's horse (which turned out rather badly for the horse).

We blew by all the rules under the "rule of cool" after a short discussion about whether a mount was "willing".

After the game, I saw this...

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration


A flying creature can be supported by air, but air may not count as a "surface". So can a flying creature teleport through the air or not?
If so, can it carry a non-flying creature with it?
Can a non-flying creature teleport into the air at all?
Can transposition (benign or baleful) swap a flying creature at altitude with a non-flying one?

I've used "d-door straight up, max range" as an escape route more times than I can count. Just make sure to go high enough that one round of falling (while unable to take any actions) won't splatter you. But by RAW it appears I shouldn't be able to do this?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The rule you've quoted is supposed to be in regards to conjuration (summoning), (calling), and (creation) spells. Teleportation spells don't bring things to your location in the sense they're talking about and they certainly don't bring anything into being.

It was a legal use for the spell, if a bit of a douchebag move on the imp's part but hey, imp.

[Psyren]

The rule you've quoted is supposed to be in regards to conjuration (summoning), (calling), and (creation) spells. Teleportation spells don't bring things to your location in the sense they're talking about and they certainly don't bring anything into being.

Benign Transposition does bring something to your location though, because you're switching places. No griefing party members or animal companions by flying off a cliff and swapping.

[Elkad]

The limitation is under the generic conjuration heading, not the sub-types, which would seem to apply to ANY conjuration spell, unless over-ruled in the sub-type.

The opening descriptive sentence says "transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation)"
So teleportation is explicitly transport.

So in the case of benign transposition while flying, you are most definitely "transporting a creature" ("to your location" is questionable, since you left at the same time) and it is "floating" and not "on a surface capable of supporting it"


Not my game (I'm the one that did the horse-dropping :biggrin: ), but in mine I'm inclined to let it work anyway, and I'll bring it up with the DM in that game.

But RAW it sure reads like it shouldn't work.

If it does work, then picture this. Badguy is leaning on the tower wall scratching himself. Wizard flies up (or walks up stairs, steps off edge and casts Feather Fall), touches the same wall at altitude, and uses Baleful Transposition to swap with bad guy. One failed Will Save later Badguy appears at altitude and takes up to 13d6 from a 3rd level wizard.

[Fouredged Sword]

Generally I take it as a specific VS general rule conflict and the spell wins out as specifying the location the target appears as in the place you used to occupy. If you pick a location, it must conform to the surface rule. If the spell specifies a location, the target ends up in that location regardless of the surface rule.

General rule - In General things can only be teleported to surfaces that can support them.

Specific rule - This Specific spell moves a target into your space and you into it's space.

[Psyren]

General rule - In General things can only be teleported to surfaces that can support them.

Specific rule - This Specific spell moves a target into your space and you into it's space.

That's not how spell entries work - the spell does make the general rule specific by listing the general rule (i.e. the school and subschool) in the specific entry, and thus incorporating those rules. You can't say "well, the spell doesn't mention X even though the school or subschool does, therefore it trumps."

By your logic, dimension door says you "arrive exactly at the spot desired" - the spell says nothing about being dependent on astral travel (even though the teleportation subschool does), so you can use it to teleport even if access to the astral plane is cut off.

[Elkad]

Using general vs specific then, how about a flying creature just teleporting to a different airborne location?

No other creature involved, so the air would be a "surface capable of supporting" me?

What about a non-flying creature teleporting himself far into the air?

[Psyren]

A flying creature can teleport to a midair location, yes. A non-flying creature normally cannot.

[supermonkeyjoe]

The exact text with bold for emphasis:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

This clause only affect things that are being brought to your location so the spell works if you are teleporting yourself or others to another location whether it is in open air or not, but not if you are calling something to your location or bringing it into being.

Depending on your reading of benign transposition, the target may be brought to your position or not, depending on how you parse the teleportation effect, personally I would allow it as a DM

[Psyren]

Teleporting yourself somewhere could also fall under that clause. Anywhere you end up is your location - you are always there, after all.

[Flickerdart]

Teleporting yourself somewhere could also fall under that clause. Anywhere you end up is your location - you are always there, after all.
On the other hand, you are not there until you arrive there, so while you are determining whether or not going there is legal, it is not yet your location.