Gunslinger/Paladin?

[Qc Storm]

I'm about to play a Kingmaker campaign, and Gunslinger seemed like a cool class. Mysterious Stranger is a must, I love the archetype and I will be the party face. However Gunslinger levels get a bit boring near the middle of the class, so I was considering multiclassing into Paladin. Both because they are cool, and the CHA synergy is welcome.

Few things to note : I will also be a Musket Master. the DM allowed me to stack both Mysterious Stranger and that if I gave up Stranger's Fortune. However this part isn't set in stone, I just think muskets are cool and so are d12s.

As for the paladin, I will most likely go with Sacred Servant. The lack of smite uses doesn't bother me, and we will most likely not have a divine caster, so the extra bump to my very limited spellcasting/healing would be welcome. However I am open about paladin archetypes also. Shame that Holy Gun is garbage for actual gunslingers.

My greatest predicament right now is Misfire. I have no ways to prevent it. DM suggested a trait to grab a level 0 spell (Mend) and tape a wand of Mend to my musket (ruled that owning the SLA allowed me to cast it from a wand). This is a pretty good alternative, but would be a bit annoying to use in combat. Considering the misfire chance is 1-3 while using alchemical ammo...

I was also wondering if I should burn a trait to get Diplomacy, or if I should just dump all my skll points in it when I take paladin levels.

How many paladin/gunslinger levels should I take, in what order? Both of them offer vital abilities at low level (like that sweet sweet divine grace).

What about feats? Skils?

I usually play human for serious characters, as I have a difficult time treating more outlandish races seriously, especially the small ones. Good thing that they are always excellent choices, but once again, I can be convinced to switch. Would miss that 1/4 grit though.

I do not know what stats to expect, but using 20 point buy I would go with the following :

STR : 8
DEX : 16
CON : 12
INT : 10
WIS : 8
CHA : 18 (using human +2)

Thoughts?

[AnonymousPepper]

Gunslinger 5 is the minimum, for Gun Training. Dex to damage is super important. 7 isn't as big as it looks, because Clustered Shot gives you a similar effect to Dead Shot for the cost of a feat instead of levels. Gunslinger 11 is also a good stopping point though, for Lightning Reload.

I'd also recommend getting in three levels of Fighter (Trench Fighter archetype) for double dex to damage (Trench Fighting stacks with Gun Training).

[Psyren]

I'd also recommend getting in three levels of Fighter (Trench Fighter archetype) for double dex to damage (Trench Fighting stacks with Gun Training).

Not since the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) they don't.

[grarrrg]

Mysterious Stranger is a must, I love the archetype and I will be the party face....
Few things to note : I will also be a Musket Master. the DM allowed me to stack both Mysterious Stranger and that if I gave up Stranger's Fortune.

I assume this means you get to keep Musket Master Gun Training then?
Go for it! Stranger 5/Paladin 2 (not necessarily that order).

[NightbringerGGZ]

I assume this means you get to keep Musket Master Gun Training then?
Go for it! Stranger 5/Paladin 2 (not necessarily that order).

That's a really solid trade! I would suggest you go with 5 levels of Gunslinger so you can grab your Dex to damage ability as soon as possible. With your musket you'll have decent range and will be able to reload that musket as a free action with the right ammo. This lets you pick up the standard ranged feats swiftly. Starting at level 6 you can go Paladin. I suggest grabbing the Divine Hunter archetype and retraining Precise Shot if you've picked it up with a feat choice already. Holy Gun is a great concept, but the archetype is really terrible. You're better off with standard Smite.

The wand of mend idea is a good way to handle misfires. You might be better off with a trait that gives you Use Magic Device as a class skill (with the +1 trait bonus on UMD checks) rather than picking Mend up as an SLA. With a decent Cha you could have an 8 in UMD right at first level and then you'll be able to use other utility wands (maybe a CLW for instance).

[animewatcha]

Not since the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) they don't.

How does work for 2-handed fighter archetype.. before this I read the archetype as doing 3.5 x str mod added to damage rolls.

[Psyren]

How does work for 2-handed fighter archetype.. before this I read the archetype as doing 3.5 x str mod added to damage rolls.

Exactly like it says it does - you add double your strength bonus. (The key is that the archetype doesn't say "you add your strength bonus again" - it says "multiply your Str bonus by two." There is no actual stacking going on.)

[animewatcha]

Before the FAQ, was it 3.5 x str ?

[Psyren]

Before the FAQ, was it 3.5 x str ?

I'm not seeing where you're getting 3.5x from.

Normal rule: You get 1.5x strength on damage rolls.
THF Archetype: You get 2x strength on damage rolls (single attack, or all attacks after the first later.)

Were you double-counting/adding these before?

[animewatcha]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter

Before the 'martials can't have nice things' modifier ruling, I was under the impression that you would add 2x on top of the 1.5x for two-handed attack. Since it didn't say it replaced it.

[Snowbluff]

If you are doing a Gun Pally, keep your smite. You want the damage.

Litany of Righteousness.

[N. Jolly]

Okay, so how much Paladin do you want, because really, you could get away with 2 levels of it before going Mysterious Stranger. I'd honestly say Paladin 2/Mysterious Stranger X, and for archetype, pick up Divine Hunter, as you'd also get Precise Shot for free skipping the need for Point Blank Shot, which would generally not be that valuable for a musket wielder.

At this point, you're already 2 feats ahead of the curve (Rapid Reload, Precise Shot) and could easily continue forward, waiting until 13th level before getting Sig Deed for constant Cha to damage WITH Dex to damage from Gun Training, which would make you into a monster.

As for misfire, you're honestly best off picking up a double barreled musket and waiting to pick up Greater Reliable since that's dropping misfire by 4, which is the misfire rate of your weapon. Until you get an extra attack (either through BAB or Rapid Shot), stick with your regular musket and normal ammo, since you don't need to drop reload to a free action just yet. You're in dangerous territory until you can pick up that +4 weapon (+1 and Greater Reliable is +3), but that's just the natural way of the slinger, sadly. Consider bringing a back up weapon for situations like this, another musket shouldn't be too hard to pick up before then.

[Qc Storm]

Although the free feat from Divine Hunter is nice, I'm not sure if it's worth the loss of Aura of Courage. Most people recommend Paladin 2, but wouldn't an extra level be great? Immunity to fear when you have awful will saves is great, as is giving bonuses to friends nearby. Also immunity to disease. And mercies.

Skipping Point Blank Shot is nice, but I'm gonna need it for Rapid Shot anyway. And I might be able to live without it, when I regularly shoot Touch AC?

Should I focus more on CHA than DEX? Considering everything that keys off it.

UMD is nice, but in the previous games I've played, I've rarely made use of it. Perhaps I was not imaginative enough. But now my skill points are rather limited and my duties, varied. Also one of the reasons why I don't want to start paladin too late. Need some ranks in that skill.

Litany of Righteousness is deliciously powerful.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter

Before the 'martials can't have nice things' modifier ruling, I was under the impression that you would add 2x on top of the 1.5x for two-handed attack. Since it didn't say it replaced it.

Your interpretation was valid, as was the other one. They merely clarified which one was intended.

[Snowbluff]

... I don't get it. Isn't there a feat that does something like that? Why would they even bother fixing it? :smallsigh:

I would say if that you are not going further into paladin, get a glove of Storing and a Wand of Litany of Righteousness anyway. You can use it because you have paladin levels, and it would double (!) your damage on a swift action. That being said, Cha would suck on your character at that point, so Mysterious Stranger should probably be replaced.

[stack]

Paladin 4 with oath of vengeance keeps you smiting much longer.

[grarrrg]

Most people recommend Paladin 2, but wouldn't an extra level be great?

Paladin 2 is the minimum, and is _normally_ the 'dip stop' point.
BUT Gunslingers are VERY frontloaded, so once you hit level 5 for DEX to Damage, you don't really 'need' any more levels.
So as long as you get at least Gunslinger 5/Paladin 2 you can then do whatever and you'll be fine. So more Paladin works just fine.

[Hazrond]

hey guys, is levels of gunslinger REALLY necessary? I believe that paladins actually have a gun based archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-gun) of their own. would that not work seeing as pathfinder likes to reward straight classing more than multiclassing?

[AnonymousPepper]

Not since the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) they don't.

They finally fixed that?

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day. Thanks for the correction.

[Qc Storm]

hey guys, is levels of gunslinger REALLY necessary? I believe that paladins actually have a gun based archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-gun) of their own. would that not work seeing as pathfinder likes to reward straight classing more than multiclassing?

It's pretty awful overall. Grants you no bonus damage aside from the smite, and no way to clear your guns or help with full attacks. Smite Shot is also pretty much worse than a regular smite, even when used by guns.

EDIT : I suppose you could take Quick Clear with the first level deed they give you, but considering you start the day with 1 grit, and it is capped by wisdom which a paladin is likely to dump...

[Hazrond]

It's pretty awful overall. Grants you no bonus damage aside from the smite, and no way to clear your guns or help with full attacks. Smite Shot is also pretty much worse than a regular smite, even when used by guns.

EDIT : I suppose you could take Quick Clear with the first level deed they give you, but considering you start the day with 1 grit, and it is capped by wisdom which a paladin is likely to dump...

am i wrong in believing that you can regain grit points in much the same way as a gunslinger? if so what is the issue? if you are rolling really badly you can always drop the failure chance entirely by adding reliable to the gun if its something with a low misfire rate

Edit: Plus, you only have to deal with the low grit till 11th level, where your grit is switched to Charisma

[grarrrg]

am i wrong in believing that you can regain grit points in much the same way as a gunslinger? if so what is the issue? if you are rolling really badly you can always drop the failure chance entirely by adding reliable to the gun if its something with a low misfire rate

Smiting Shot might be redeemable if it was per shot. The problem is that it is a Standard Action for one attack.
Because of this Holy Gun is generally "ok" until level 5 (slightly longer if you somehow don't have access to Alchemical Cartridges).
But the moment you can (reliably) hit with Iteratives/Rapid-Shot it becomes horrible.
The only real potential use after level 5 is combining it with a Scatter Weapon.

As is, you are pretty much better off going Mysterious Stranger 1/Any-other-Paladin X.


Edit: Plus, you only have to deal with the low grit till 11th level, where your grit is switched to Charisma

"'Only' until level 11" is not something I want to build my character around.

[Hazrond]

"'Only' until level 11" is not something I want to build my character around.

fair point.