Illumian v Spellscale Mystic Theruge

[Tindragon]

I have a player joining the group this weekend. Continuation on older homebrew campaign, other DM taking a break. Starting level 8th.

The player is looking at Sorc/Favored Soul Mt. Spellscale race. after some quick searches, I am drawn to point out the Illumian as race vs spellscale.

Stats can be rolled 5d6 use 3 highest, 6 times, order as you like.

Or use standard set of 17 16 15 14 12 10

Don't forget +1 inherent bonus at levels 4 and 8 ....

Any race, only 1 elf allowed in party.(if any, and I will have a big say in the back story)

No evil alignments, CN and TN will be expected to act "heroic" and over all good(ish).

Strongly suggest communicating and coming up with a balanced party.

Starting level 8 gold (27,000) no more than 25% on 1 item. (6750)

If it's allowed per RAW and last 3.5 Errata, I'll likely allow it.

FLAWS for FEATS are allowed during character creation. The flaws must be detrimental to the class.

Max Hit Points levels 1-3 then take average, or roll 1x per level.


Party so far:
Human (reptillian template SS) Cleric (cause, no diety, DMM Persist)
Spellscale Warlock
former dwarf gone Dragonborn Duskblade
human (w half iron golem: aquired previously) Monk
ogre half dragon (? color) Warhulk.

So with all this in mind, if his heart is set on Sorc/FS/MT how best would he optimize. Spellscale v Illumian...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Illumian has Improved Sigil (Krau) that lets him get into Mystic Theurge much faster as well as regain the last caster levels., It is a fantastic race if you want to run Mystic Theurge. The tiny bonus to Cha is nothing compared to early entry, which will let him keep up with the other characters (although they are so LA heavy that may not be a problem).

[Troacctid]

I usually like Illumian on theurge-type builds for the easy early entry, but with both sides being spontaneous casters, Spellscale is actually just as easy--both races get early entry with just one feat (Improved Sigil: Krau for Illumian, Versatile Spellcaster with Hlal meditation for Spellscale). Versatile Spellcaster is the better feat, and both classes are Cha-based, so I think I give Spellscale the edge here. Also, the whole party seems to have a scaly theme to it, so why break it up, right?

Edit: Note that as neither Sorcerer nor Favored Soul has Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, you will still need to do some finagling to qualify for Mystic Theurge, e.g. taking the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level and the Draconic Knowledge feat.

[Gemini476]

I usually like Illumian on theurge-type builds for the easy early entry, but with both sides being spontaneous casters, Spellscale is actually just as easy--both races get early entry with just one feat (Improved Sigil: Krau for Illumian, Versatile Spellcaster with Hlal meditation for Spellscale). Versatile Spellcaster is the better feat, and both classes are Cha-based, so I think I give Spellscale the edge here. Also, the whole party seems to have a scaly theme to it, so why break it up, right?

Note that as neither Sorcerer nor Favored Soul has Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, you will still need to do some finagling to qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Favoured Soul got Knowledge(Religion) in the Dead Levels II (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) article, actually.

[Jeff the Green]

Edit: Note that as neither Sorcerer nor Favored Soul has Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill, you will still need to do some finagling to qualify for Mystic Theurge, e.g. taking the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level and the Draconic Knowledge feat.

There's an online article suggesting swapping out Favored Soul's Knowledge (arcana) for Knowledge (religion).

[Urpriest]

As a concerned citizen, I have to ask: is this guy's heart actually set on Sorc/FS/MT, or is it merely set on the fluff of Sorc/FS/MT (Charismatic spellcaster who mingles arcane and divine magic)? Because there are lots of builds that encompass the latter while not being nearly as painful to play as the former.

[Troacctid]

As a concerned citizen, I have to ask: is this guy's heart actually set on Sorc/FS/MT, or is it merely set on the fluff of Sorc/FS/MT (Charismatic spellcaster who mingles arcane and divine magic)? Because there are lots of builds that encompass the latter while not being nearly as painful to play as the former.

What's wrong with Sorc/FS/MT? If you use early entry, you only lose one level of casting--that's the same as Sand Shaper, which is conventionally considered a decent prestige class for Sorcerers. And you're still as SAD as ever, since you can just not use your Favored Soul side for spells that allow saves. I mean, you suck for the first few levels, but the campaign's starting at 8, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[Tindragon]

Thanks much for all the input!

[Urpriest]

What's wrong with Sorc/FS/MT? If you use early entry, you only lose one level of casting--that's the same as Sand Shaper, which is conventionally considered a decent prestige class for Sorcerers. And you're still as SAD as ever, since you can just not use your Favored Soul side for spells that allow saves. I mean, you suck for the first few levels, but the campaign's starting at 8, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Even with early entry, you're still losing ten levels of class features and [however many feats your DM thinks constitutes a legal early entry trick]. By contrast, you could have used those feats and class features on things that actually support the intended fluff, like Dweomerkeeper.

[Snowbluff]

Ur Priest, I don't know what you mean by class features. :smalltongue:

Now, where is that Arcane Hierophant link...

[Troacctid]

10 levels of Sorcerer class features? Oh no, what an awful thing to miss out on! And Favored Soul class features too! I'll never get those wings at level 17 now, and whatever shall I do without Weapon Specialization?

[Rebel7284]

If you like scaly creatures with bonuses to charisma, how about a Dragonwraught Desert Kobold. You can be old for +2 to all mental stats or venerable for +3. Also you count as a dragon for all the nice perks of that (Alter Self, Wings of Cover, etc). Most importantly, you can take a feat and do a ritual to get a sorcerer level and thus recover the level you lose to enter favored soul.

[Urpriest]

10 levels of Sorcerer class features? Oh no, what an awful thing to miss out on! And Favored Soul class features too! I'll never get those wings at level 17 now, and whatever shall I do without Weapon Specialization?

:smallsigh:

Prestige class class features. You know, those things most casters get after 5th level or so?

[Troacctid]

"Eleven extra levels of casting" sounds like a class feature to me, and a pretty good one, too.

[Urpriest]

"Eleven extra levels of casting" sounds like a class feature to me, and a pretty good one, too.

Eh. It's not nothing, don't get me wrong, but after taking into account action economy (you're dealing with Spontaneous Casters, so you won't have a large library of buffs to apply in the morning) and the fact that there are lots of PrCs and feats that give you choice spells from other lists for much less investment, it's just not worth it. Especially when the only way it contributes to flavor is "able to cast both types of spells", which is quite a bit less interesting in practice than most class features that are actually designed to support divine/arcane flavor.

[Sith_Happens]

Eh. It's not nothing, don't get me wrong, but after taking into account action economy (you're dealing with Spontaneous Casters, so you won't have a large library of buffs to apply in the morning) and the fact that there are lots of PrCs and feats that give you choice spells from other lists for much less investment, it's just not worth it. Especially when the only way it contributes to flavor is "able to cast both types of spells", which is quite a bit less interesting in practice than most class features that are actually designed to support divine/arcane flavor.

I'm sorry, what was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of casting Divine Power and Righteous Might on my familiar.:smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, what was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of casting Divine Power and Righteous Might on my familiar.:smalltongue:

PFFT HAHAHAH!

Actually, cast Divine Power on yourself. You familiar will also get the full BAB. :smalltongue:

[Rebel7284]

Alternatively to my Desert Kobold suggestion, you can also take Jungle Kobold. They get more Wisdom, but they need to get 10GP glasses from Sandstorm to not be dazzled in sunlight.