The Champion

[Perseus_Stoned]

Everybody, I love the class "The Champion" and I was wondering if anyone had used it in their campaign. I was wondering if any prestige classes had been designed for it (I have designed about 4 now). Also I saw a few things I thought (in my humble and inexperienced mind) might need some correcting or adjusting. Would you consider these reasonable or do you see anything unbalancing/wrong about these?


You gain the "bonus feat" ability again on levels 8 and 16.
When rechoosing your avatar ability scores, you may not relocate enough points to take any stats under 8 (forgoing racial adjustments).
Taking Avatar form becomes a standard action; Perfect Transformation reallots that to a "Free action" and also takes out "hero form per day" uses and changes it to "rounds per day" (allowing a lot freer shifting).
Take out alignment restrictions (already been done, but needs some rewording).
Maybe grant the Avatar form something like Uncanny Dodge.

Also how would the adjustments go into epic form?
Here's what I thought:


Every 4 levels gain an additional “hero form per day”, starts at 22
Continue getting energy resistance every 4 levels, starts at 23
Select a third and final domain at level 28
Fly speed increases (+30) every 6 levels, starts at 24
Every 8 levels, +5 damage reductions (starts at 25)
Epic bonus feats
Champion: every 4
Avatar: every 3
Both: every 5
Spells per day do not increase after 20th level, caster level is half his class level

[Rad]

Personally, I had a kind of "reads good, plays bad" feeling about this class. The main consideration is that a Champion has great flavor but is never balanced: you spend your time in your normal form as a weak member of the party and then turn into the stronger element of the party. The fact that you are never "average" might not be nice on the long run and the DM has some trouble in setting the encounters strength.
In the end, I considered playing the class (also to really test it and find out how it plays) but after a chat with my DM at the time we agreed that it would be better for everyone's fun if I just played something else.

However, this is an "untested" opinion. Did anybody actually play it? How did it feel like? How did the other players and the DM feel about it?

[Reptilius]

I've never played it, and my players are such weenies they get skittish around non-core classes. But what I want to know is this: The text for avatar form says the champion loses all racial traits except ability adjustments. But what about naturally four-armed champions? Would, say, a Thri-kreen champion still have four arms? What about Weapon Familiarity, like dwarves and waraxes?

[Perseus_Stoned]

I've never played it, and my players are such weenies they get skittish around non-core classes. But what I want to know is this: The text for avatar form says the champion loses all racial traits except ability adjustments. But what about naturally four-armed champions? Would, say, a Thri-kreen champion still have four arms? What about Weapon Familiarity, like dwarves and waraxes?

I'd have to say no, since the flavor text of "Hero Form" states this:


The avatar is a Medium-size native outsider with the Good subtype (even if the champion himself is a different size), and looks only slightly like the champion's normal form. It is always in the prime of life, even if the champion is younger or older, and is obviously virile and powerful.

Even if you interpret "slightly like the champion's normal form" as to mean 4 arms, it would probably be too grossly unbalanced to allow and, by rules as clearly intended (since it changes its type and size to make sure this stays constant), shouldn't really be allowed.

What would people think about a monk (unarmed damage, maybe some VoP synergy), barbarian (just for rage and some power attack bonuses), and/or mage (put all your ability points towards intelligence, get some crazy spells) prestige class for the champion?

[Reptilius]

Those all sound like good ideas except for the mage. I was brainstorming a soulknife/champion PrC, but I was too lazy to do it.

[tonberryking]

I've played as a champion and I've used a champion as an NPC for a game I'm running IRL. Personally, I'd like to try one as a PC again, but in any case I do aquiesse that they work better as characters the Party runs into rather than a Prince Adam joining their ranks.

[Hasteur]

I was able to dicev... convince my DM to let me play a Champion in his D&D3.5 session. Needless to say it's been a labor of love. It has saved us in several spots to blow the HeroForm so that we have a replacement tank. Currently evaluating the class at low levels (Started at L1 and recently crossed L4). The avatar is nice however if you're the strait up Champion (Good side of the coin) and you're playing in a party that is at best "A few points shy of Neutral" be prepared for much fireworks in terms of the role-playing. We've recently been venturing through a tomb where the rest of the party has been looting the closed sepulchers. Now both of my character(s) have expressed extreme reservations at looting corpses that we did not defeat in honorable combat.

Remember it's not just the Nifty avatar form that makes the class shine. It's the becoming a paragon of virtue (or vileness if you take the evil variant) and forcefully expressing and proselytizing of the other characters (and complete) strangers that gives the entry of the role-play for the character

[turtlemonkey]

ya, i was wondering how it played out myself

also i had a question on the feats aspect of it
looking at some of his example champions made are the feats done right?


The avatar has one feat for every 3 character levels the champion has (regardless of the class). These may be feats he has in his normal form or they may be any feat he qualifies for by virtue of the avatar's ability scores; the avatar gains another feat whenever the champion reaches a character level divisible by three.

So looking at the quoted part the avitar should have 1 feat/3 levels regardless of class (as noted in Sindee the Black example who is level 9 and the avitar has 5 feats (4 from levels, 1 from bonus feat))

Then looking at it it says the avatar gains another feat whenever the champion reaches a character level disiable by 3. Does this mean that whenever your champion class level is divisible by 3? so if you were level 3 champion your avitar would get 1 feat at level 1, the bonus feat at level 2, then 2 feats at level 3? one for your champion class level being divisible by 3, and one for the champion total character level divisible by 3?

That would effectivly double the amount of feats an avatar would have if going straight champion. Or am I just really not reading that last line right. Because it sounds like the avatar should get some more feats stacked on top of the one's it gets besides the bonus feat and feats it gains from your total character level disible by 3

[Fawsto]

The fact is: 75% of the time you are a overpowered commoner, with extra feats a decent life die and a few skillpoints. When you take on the avatar he is a Overatributed Fighter due to his bunch of feats. I'd like to Play a Champion at least once... The problem? You must go Hack'nSlash to shine around. But I will reread the class to see anything odd appearing.

[Shades of Gray]

Well you see. A champion has flight. Good Strength. and other supernatural powers. But many need to keep their identities secret.

Champion=Superman
Regular form= Clark Kent.

On a more serious note, I played one. WE were munchkining AND roleplaying (heresy I know!). I know that the Dm was complaining at my BAB.

Hero Form Strength+ Bull's Strength Spell+ Enlarge Person Strength Bonus+ Champion BAB.

It was also fun to roleplay. My regular form had crazy CHA. I was making an inspirational speech, and to my surprise people were listening. Of course there was a sarcastic, pessimistic, annoying NPC elf.

After the 3rd insult I jumped him.
Bull rush: Natural 20.
Opposed Strength: Natural 1

The DM ruled that I snapped his neck.

Of course he came back as a vampire.

[Jayngfet]

provided that I can finish up the capmagne and gaming world I'm working on, I'm goint to produce the books and some printed homebrew classes from various sites that fit in a world where so many things listed have been changed so drasticly, divine tricster and champion high on the list

[Cranglesmack]

I am about to enter a game with a DM who has been interested in seeing someone play a Champion, and I have been itching to try out the class.

Thing is, I'm a bit of a nut for feats, but I don't much care to play a Fighter, and the Avatar form just doesn't offer enough feats for my tastes. I was thinking of asking the DM to allow me to trade in the Avatar's ability score boosts on a one-for-one basis for feats. Would this be insanely overpowered, or do you think I'd be screwing myself over royally?

I'd plan on giving up two at first level, maybe one more at second, then fifth, seventh, tenth, so on and so forth.

[Jayngfet]

hhhhhhm, I wonder how an NPC champion would work, a right to rule based on divine forces and a verification on who a high ranking figure is by asking them to transform, obviously this would be interesting, a goblin in fancy clothes turning into a hound archon or phenixborn in a fantastic( and possibly shattering surrounding objects) display of holy thunder and lightning would be very cool.