Please convince me to use reach weapons

[Windrammer]

I adored the fact that 5e got rid of that stupid rule of being unable to attack adjacent targets. I don't adore the fact that 3.5 demands two feats and a swift action to be able to do what, realistically, you should be doing freely (excluding that silly spiked chain).

But thematically, I love reach fighting (with polearms, more specifically). And it can be a blast so long as you have the breathing room to do it. I'm just having trouble bringing myself to do it in 3.5.

My experience with reach fighting is a bit limited and I would love it if someone could make a case for its viability for me. Pls

[Khedrac]

It's all down to personal preference.

My fighter-types tend to carry a reach weapon as a backup. If I am not the only fighter-type and we are in a narrow corridor I can go second using my reach weapon to attack past my ally.

Also, most fighter-types carry a "golf-bag" of weapons. E.g.:

Greatsword - main weapon enchanted for damage, adamantine or star metal
morning star - for piercing/bludgeoning - cold iron

With those 2 you still could usefully use a silver weapon, so why not a reach weapon "just in case"?

Also I tend to have the primary back-up weapon as Ghost-Touch, but if you want another weapon with a specific set of enchantments you again need a third weapon - so if not a reach one then what else?

Alternatively some two-weapon builds go for reach weapon and armor-spikes.

It is all down to personal preference, if you don't like them don't use them.

[Baroknik]

I adored the fact that 5e got rid of that stupid rule of being unable to attack adjacent targets. I don't adore the fact that 3.5 demands two feats and a swift action to be able to do what, realistically, you should be doing freely (excluding that silly spiked chain).

But thematically, I love reach fighting (with polearms, more specifically). And it can be a blast so long as you have the breathing room to do it. I'm just having trouble bringing myself to do it in 3.5.

My experience with reach fighting is a bit limited and I would love it if someone could make a case for its viability for me. Pls

If you aren't looking to drop a feat on EWP, the general recommendation is to pick up a glaive (for trip bonus) and spiked gauntlets or armor spikes, that way you get the benefits of reach and threaten the squares next to you.
I personally like armor spikes, as you can add defending to them and gain bonus AC.

[Taveena]

The Duom is, in its initial printing, a martial Reach weapon which allows you to attack adjacent targets.

In addition to the Spiked Chain, in Dragon #319, there are two exotic weapons - the Rope Dart and the Meteor Hammer - which have a 15 foot reach but can attack adjacent targets, and they're real life weapons with notable reach. They only do 1d4, but are Monk weapons, and can thus be used with Decisive Strike for some extremely heavy-hitting AoOs over a massive area, and have the Trip special quality, making them ideal for lockdown builds.

[DeltaEmil]

You don't really need to have feats like Short Haft or something like that. If you cannot take a 5-foot step, you can also simply wear spiked gauntlets to make attacks against adjacent opponents, or, if you're proficient with martial weapons, use spiked armor.

[HighWater]

If you aren't looking to drop a feat on EWP, the general recommendation is to pick up a glaive (for trip bonus) and spiked gauntlets or armor spikes, that way you get the benefits of reach and threaten the squares next to you.
I personally like armor spikes, as you can add defending to them and gain bonus AC.

Do you mean the Guisarme? The SRD Glaive doesn't allow for tripping, but the Guisarme does. There's no bonus to tripping either, btw.

[Andezzar]

Greatsword - main weapon enchanted for damage, adamantine or star metal
morning star - for piercing/bludgeoning - cold iron

With those 2 you still could usefully use a silver weapon, so why not a reach weapon "just in case"?
Silversheen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#silversheen) will get rid of the need for a silver weapon. Also -5 to -15 damage is hardly the end of the world.


If you aren't looking to drop a feat on EWP, the general recommendation is to pick up a glaive (for trip bonus) and spiked gauntlets or armor spikes, that way you get the benefits of reach and threaten the squares next to you.It's the Guisarme that gives the ability to trip with the weapons. The Ranseur gives a bonus to disarm attempts and the glaive does nothing but the greatest damage of the three.


I personally like armor spikes, as you can add defending to them and gain bonus AC.Clear that up with your DM. By strict RAW the defending property only does something for swords. If your DM rules that defending works with all melee weapons, then the spiked gauntlets can be enchanted just as well.

[Nightraiderx]

For 2K in the MIC 31 there is the changeling property that allows you to change the length of the spear as a short spear, spear, or long spear as a swift action once per round. It's like buying the Short-haft feat.

[PsyBomb]

The big difference is threatening 8 squares versus threatening 12, and having the ones you threaten be outside of easy reach of many opponents.

[Nightraiderx]

The big difference is threatening 8 squares versus threatening 12, and having the ones you threaten be outside of easy reach of many opponents.

a good combat reflexes and a trip polearm also limit the movement of those who bother trying.

[Andezzar]

For 2K in the MIC 31 there is the changeling property that allows you to change the length of the spear as a short spear, spear, or long spear as a swift action once per round. It's like buying the Short-haft feat.Both can only change the threat area on your turn. It's outside your turn whan you need the threat area.


a good combat reflexes and a trip polearm also limit the movement of those who bother trying.You are pretty much forced to use one of the weapons that have reach and allow you to attack and threaten within your natural reach if you want to make a good lockdown build.

[Nightraiderx]

Both can only change the threat area on your turn. It's outside your turn whan you need the threat area.

You are pretty much forced to use one of the weapons that have reach and allow you to attack and threaten within your natural reach if you want to make a good lockdown build.

I am well aware of that, but at least it's not a waste of two feats.

The second one isn't really a bad point. OP did say he wanted to use polearms. 3.5 does not have an easy way to use reach and non-reach of a polearm fluently.
There are exotic weapons that do that. (spiked chain, kusari-gama). The only way to have natural reach and still attack adjacent is to use the inhuman reach feat (aberration blood is a pre-req) and reflavor it as polearm training, now you can take a short spear, and attack 5 and 10 ft away.

[Andezzar]

I am well aware of that, but at least it's not a waste of two feats.

The second one isn't really a bad point. OP did say he wanted to use polearms. 3.5 does not have an easy way to use reach and non-reach of a polearm fluently.
There are exotic weapons that do that. (spiked chain, kusari-gama). The only way to have natural reach and still attack adjacent is to use the inhuman reach feat (aberration blood is a pre-req) and reflavor it as polearm training, now you can take a short spear, and attack 5 and 10 ft away.You could also reflavor the spiked chain as a pole arm and EWP: Spiked chain as some polearm fighting style that allows attacking both near and far enemies with that polearm. I could easily see the stats of the spiked chain as some form of spear. IRL you can use polearms to trip and 2d4 x2 damage is not far from the d8 x3 a long spear does.

You could also simply invent a style feat that applies to all pole arms and allows threatening within reach. As if a Glaive/Ranseur/Guisarme that can threaten both within reach and within 2 * reach for the cost of a feat would be so unbalanced.

[Taveena]

As mentioned, the Duom is a martial polearm reach weapon that also threatens adjacent. Whee!

[sideswipe]

ok make you like reach weapons....

why do you like (insert melee weapon here)'s? they smash people in the face and make you happy is probably the answer.

who do you like ranged weapons? they can be used to make people have a bad time and you are safe and sound.

reach weapons are both. you can beat someone's face in from a safe distance. why have cake and eat it too when you can have cake and ice cream and gobble it up in a nice pile of amazing filthiness and come out smiling covered in cream and icing.

that is the reason you should use reach weapons.

[Troacctid]

Reach weapons are important when fighting many larger monsters that have natural reach. Without a reach weapon, you need to provoke an attack of opportunity to get into melee range. With a reach weapon, you do not. That's a fairly big deal.

[eggynack]

It's pretty simple. Assume you have a reach weapon and your opponent does not. If you go first, then things progress normally (unless you delay), but if your opponent goes first then you get a free attack when they try to close with you. You can even use that free attack to trip the opponent, stopping their attack and getting a stack of other free attacks. Now, assume your opponent has a reach weapon and you do not. Same situation in reverse, and now your approach gives your opponent that free attack. If you had a reach weapon, then you wouldn't receive that attack. This effect can even multiply across several approaching combatants from either side if combat reflexes is being used.

Moreover, returning to that tripping thing, the combined effect of combat reflexes and tripping means that you're able to basically lock down your whole section of the battlefield, a section that grows in response to size increases, with a flurry of attacks. It's quite possibly the best way to actually tank in this fine game of ours, preventing the general movement of opponents. Meanwhile, greatsword guy is kinda just running up and hitting folks. You're basically trading away two damage a hit for the combination of all of that control and extra attacks. It's a great trade.

If an opponent is too close, then all it really takes is a 5-foot step away to continue to attack, or you could have a secondary weapon to handle things. It's not exactly a great hardship, and won't really hurt you at all unless you're basically just locked right up against your opponent for the duration of combat. Less breathing room and more just any normal combat situation. It's annoying, but the payoff is more than worth it. If you want to use reach weapons, then go right ahead, because they're just about the best weapons in the game.

[Andezzar]

Reach weapons are important when fighting many larger monsters that have natural reach. Without a reach weapon, you need to provoke an attack of opportunity to get into melee range. With a reach weapon, you do not. That's a fairly big deal.If you are quick enough you need not bother. Everyone is flatfooted at the beginning of combat until their turn. At best that is one charge (at half distance) in the surprise round and a Full Attack (or another charge if the first killed the enemy) in the first normal round. Afterwards total concealment is your friend (as long as you can see through it).

[eggynack]

If you are quick enough you need not bother. Everyone is flatfooted at the beginning of combat until their turn. At best that is one charge (at half distance) in the surprise round and a Full Attack (or another charge if the first killed the enemy) in the first normal round. Afterwards total concealment is your friend (as long as you can see through it).
If the enemy has combat reflexes, then they can AoO you even if they're flat-footed.

[Gnome Alone]

It's the Guisarme that gives the ability to trip with the weapons. The Ranseur gives a bonus to disarm attempts and the glaive does nothing but the greatest damage of the three.

And by like half a point, right? Why I Glaive again?

[Andezzar]

@eggynack: its pretty much rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock


And by like half a point, right? Why I Glaive again?I don't know.

[Windrammer]

It seems many didn't read the body of the post haha

I'm well aware of the spiked chain and meteor hammer, I just don't think they're cool. It's the pole arms I like

[Extra Anchovies]

It seems many didn't read the body of the post haha

I'm well aware of the spiked chain and meteor hammer, I just don't think they're cool. It's the pole arms I like

Then glaive + spiked armor is for you. Having someone slip past your guisarme only to get a faceful of spikes is cool.

[Doc_Maynot]

As mentioned, the Duom is a martial polearm reach weapon that also threatens adjacent. Whee!

Seconding the Duom. Polearm, reach, martial, printed in the official Dragon Magazine Compendium. It's only downside is that one has a -2 penalty on the attack roll against "a second adjacent opponent in the same round you attacked the first opponent."

[Windrammer]

It's pretty simple. Assume you have a reach weapon and your opponent does not. If you go first, then things progress normally (unless you delay), but if your opponent goes first then you get a free attack when they try to close with you. You can even use that free attack to trip the opponent, stopping their attack and getting a stack of other free attacks. Now, assume your opponent has a reach weapon and you do not. Same situation in reverse, and now your approach gives your opponent that free attack. If you had a reach weapon, then you wouldn't receive that attack. This effect can even multiply across several approaching combatants from either side if combat reflexes is being used.

Moreover, returning to that tripping thing, the combined effect of combat reflexes and tripping means that you're able to basically lock down your whole section of the battlefield, a section that grows in response to size increases, with a flurry of attacks. It's quite possibly the best way to actually tank in this fine game of ours, preventing the general movement of opponents. Meanwhile, greatsword guy is kinda just running up and hitting folks. You're basically trading away two damage a hit for the combination of all of that control and extra attacks. It's a great trade.

If an opponent is too close, then all it really takes is a 5-foot step away to continue to attack, or you could have a secondary weapon to handle things. It's not exactly a great hardship, and won't really hurt you at all unless you're basically just locked right up against your opponent for the duration of combat. Less breathing room and more just any normal combat situation. It's annoying, but the payoff is more than worth it. If you want to use reach weapons, then go right ahead, because they're just about the best weapons in the game.

That's what I was looking for... Thank you. Question: a lot of tome of battle maneuvers, like adamant one hurricane, are described as being for adjacent targets. Does that mean I cannot use it with a reach weapon?

[Extra Anchovies]

That's what I was looking for... Thank you. Question: a lot of tome of battle maneuvers, like adamant one hurricane, are described as being for adjacent targets. Does that mean I cannot use it with a reach weapon?

ToB is not a fan of unusual weapons. No ranged support, and also this sort of reach non-support. I'd houserule it to "an enemy within your reach", but ask your DM.

Also, carry spiked gauntlets/armor for those maneuvers.

[Andezzar]

The maneuvers similar to whirlwind attack will get a lot more powerful against hordes if you change that. There are many ways to get reach beyond 5ft. and that is not even accounting for using a reach weapon

[Kislath]

As a DM who could never get his players to use polearms, your topic pleases me.

I used to put incredibly powerfully enchanted polearms in dungeons as treasure, but they still wouldn't use them.

You've warmed my heart for showing any interest at all.

[Andezzar]

Did they have weapon focus and/or similar one weapon only feats? If so I can see why they are disinclined to use other weapons. Did you use the polearms to great effect against them?

[Windrammer]

As a DM who could never get his players to use polearms, your topic pleases me.

I used to put incredibly powerfully enchanted polearms in dungeons as treasure, but they still wouldn't use them.

You've warmed my heart for showing any interest at all.

I've only had good experiences using polearms, it's just a very large and unfortunate turnoff about the limitations. Also feels daunting in how it complicates things as such, you have to rethink your combat style. Without reach you can just plant your ass in front of the bad guy and stay there until you hit him dead. With reach, you have to carefully think about each five foot step, and how you're going to keep everyone at ten feet without stepping off a cliff.

[Taveena]

Duooooooom. Martial polearm reach weapon that hits adjacent. Why wouldn't you use iiiiiit.

[animewatcha]

What about the mobs that have abilities/spells/buffs/etc. active that screw you over if you hit them in melee, but not with a reach weapon? In MMOs, this would be a damage shield / thorns effect.

[Andezzar]

Duooooooom. Martial polearm reach weapon that hits adjacent. Why wouldn't you use iiiiiit.Because it looks stupid.


What about the mobs that have abilities/spells/buffs/etc. active that screw you over if you hit them in melee, but not with a reach weapon? In MMOs, this would be a damage shield / thorns effect.I can't remember one such ability that excludes melee attacks with reach weapons from the effect.

[animewatcha]

The usual language is 'melee weapon or natural weapon'. I knew one of the dinos that could be taken as animal companion so I am looking through monster manual 3 right now...


Here it is. Page 39 Bloodstriker - Spiked skin. Others might have a little different wording here or there, but they generally mention 'melee or natural weapon' with Reach weapons making you safe.

[Troacctid]

I can't remember one such ability that excludes melee attacks with reach weapons from the effect.

Fire shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) is a classic example.