Why so many Sorcerer / Warlock MCs vs Bard / Warlock?

[GiantOctopodes]

So, certainly, I see the appeal of a 1 or 2 level dip in sorcerer for a warlock. You get effectively 4 cantrips and 4 1st level spell slots, as well as +1 hp/level and an always on mage armour. Definitely worthwhile.

However, Bard is just as easy to MC into, gives you a free skill proficiency, a number of bardic inspiration dice equal to your charisma mod, 2 cantrips and the same number of 1st level slots with a 1 level dip, and only 1 less with a 2 level dip, and possibly most important, gives you Bard spells as a ritual caster, which is the 2nd best ritual caster list in the game (with the best being of course Wizard). Gaining 12 spells known that don't require a slot is not a small thing. The 2nd level, jack of all trades, is absurdly useful in and of itself, giving 1/2 proficiency with *all* skills and tools, not to mention initiative, etc.

So, certainly, I see the worth in the MC dip into sorcerer. But why does everyone only refer to that, and no one ever discuss the possibility of bard?

[Giant2005]

You have it all backwards. It isn't common for the Warlock to be the dominant class in the Warlock/Sorc multi - the standard ratio is 1 Warlock and 18 Sorc (Or as many Sorc levels as you can muster).
It is a more favorable option due to the Sorc and Warlock enhancing each other's strengths (Quicken Spell + EB). Going with Bard will give a Bard more fighting power but the abilities don't synergize like the Sorc/Warlock combo.

[Person_Man]

I see a lot of Warlock 2/Whatever 18 on the boards. Warlock provides Eldritch Blast + Cha damage + 10 ft push, Hex (+1d6 damage), and Armor of Agathys (temp hit points + retributive damage), which are all very nifty things, plus a few other ancillary benefits.

Having said that, I don't think its a great idea for mid-high level games. Every class ends up with decent to high damage output if they want it. You just need the right combination of subclass abilities and spells. Warlock just happens to get its high damage at level 2, whereas other classes generally wait until level 3 to 8.

[silveralen]

Hrmm, I must say, I still don't see it. I was referring to Warlocks being advised to dip sorc for more spell slots to get them through the 2-11 stretch, but the same is true the other way- why dip warlock vs bard? A fire based sorc has scorching ray deal more damage from levels 6-17 than eldritch blast, and not having delayed (and ultimately lost) an ASI frees one up for Elemental Adept, which changes the average damage from 36 to 39, and makes fire nearly as useful as force in terms of damage type. As a result, the 2 level dip in sorcerer only gains you 3 damage on cantrips (and only from levels 17-20).

Admittedly Hex is nice, but Armour of Agathys is nothing to write home about (unless they deal less than 5 damage on the hit, it's only 5 damage, once, and it relies on being hit within the hour, so it's pretty much always better to save that 2nd slot for hex).

As such, I would argue that the benefits gained from Bard are at least competitive vs those gained from Warlock, and the same statement is true from that angle as well. In short, Bard seems always at least a competitive dip, vs Warlock or Sorcerer.

Well scorching ray isn't a cantrip, so that isn't a great comparison. Eldritch blast works well because multiple hits stack the ability modifier, unlike most cantrips (this has been said to be unintentional, but is seen as such a foundation of warlock being viable that most ignore it). So the dip for warlock makes your at will damage much higher much higher (5-10 points) with a better collection of abilities (multi target potentially, no save to push). This is actually very useful for a damage focused sorcerer, in both terms of at will damage and the amount of nova damage things like quicken spell offer with eldritch blast. It doesn't hurt that a three level dip in warlock gives you access to the same capstone as full sorcerer (4 sorcerer points per short rest) with the added bonus of being able to use them as 2 2nd level spell slots instead of 2 lvl 1, if need be.

Similarly, a warlock dipping sorcerer gains access to more spells than if he were to dip bard (font of magic) which is more useful to the class than jack of all trades generally. In addition, a three level dip gets you meta magic vs expertise, the former generally being preferable for most. Still, a bard up is viable for warlock.

For sorcerer, the bard dip normally gets ignored because it doesn't offer much a sorcerer might want. For versatility, a three dip of warlock gets you access to all rituals of any spell casting class, while damage isn't bard's thing so it won't be boosted there. If you want a bit more non magical ability without losing spell slots, it could work, but generally I don't see the pay off as being worth delaying more powerful spells, or just going full bard in the first place.

As for bard... neither class has anything bard truly wants. He can rock solid at will damage by going war college, can cherry pick spells, and has access to rituals. Someone building mainly bard will never have much nova potential and the other metamagic isn't really that great for a class that has fallbacks other than magic as is. I don't see alot for bard in most multiclass combos honestly.

[Dalebert]

My main 5e character is a warlock dipping bard. Only one level for a while but I may go deeper later on.

[Osiris]

One reason: quicken spell. Bards don't get this, but sorcerers do. It can potentially double your damage.
Consider the following build that I have formulated: Sorc 3 Warlock 2 Rogue 3. The rogue, predictably, is an assassin.
All cantrips scale with level, so you're doing 2d10 damage. However, your invocations are Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast.
Now you're doing 2d10 + 8 damage (potentially 18 cha, two rays) oh, and pushing the opponent some feet.
Warlocks can also cast Hex. 2d10 +1d6 + 8 damage.
BUT assassins AND sorcerer quicken spell can increase damage. double damage, and double the dice again.
Total: 8d10 + 4d6 + 16 dmg, average: 74.

Not bad for only an 8th level build. Bards can't really do that damage without dipping Sorc.

None of this matters, though, if you're dead-set on dipping bard (or vice versa with warlock). Both are perfectly fine choices.

[odigity]

Now you're doing 2d10 + 8 damage (potentially 18 cha, two rays) oh, and pushing the opponent some feet.
Warlocks can also cast Hex. 2d10 +1d6 + 8 damage.
BUT assassins AND sorcerer quicken spell can increase damage. double damage, and double the dice again.
Total: 8d10 + 4d6 + 16 dmg, average: 74.
gh, if you're dead-set on dipping bard (or vice versa with warlock). Both are perfectly fine choices.

It's actually even better than that. Hex triggers on each ray, so it's 2d10 + 2d6 + 8 for one casting, double that for two castings via Quicken (4d10 + 4d6 + 16), and double the dice again if a surprise round with Assassin (8d10 + 8d6 + 16) = 88 avg.

But that's your big trick. If you're at 8th level with 2-3 lvls each of Rogue, Warlock, and Sorcerer, you're hurting for anything powerful to do besides a surprise round nova. You'd be two levels away minimum from 3rd lvl spells, while your team mates could be one level away from 5th lvl spells. Plus no extra attacks, no feats/ASIs, etc.

[SharkForce]

the other reason is that so many sorcerers are kinda pushed into a single damage type, and eldritch blast offers them the ability to deal lots of damage with a second damage type so that they're not completely helpless against things that are immune to their primary damage type (which is probably fire, because scorching ray is amazing single-target damage with it).

[Dalebert]

But that's your big trick.

And since quicken costs 2 points, you can do it once a day, maybe a couple times more by burning through all your sorc slots to get SPs. It's an impressive blow those few times you do it but you're paying a very heavy price for it as Odigity pointed out.

I can't see myself playing a sorc as a single-classed. They get only 15 spells known at 20th level--there's another thread about that. They seem like a class that needs to be mixed with another Cha caster. I think people just really love MM from 3.5, understandably, and now sorc is the only way to get it.

[Swiftness]

One reason: quicken spell. Bards don't get this, but sorcerers do. It can potentially double your damage.
Consider the following build that I have formulated: Sorc 3 Warlock 2 Rogue 3. The rogue, predictably, is an assassin.
All cantrips scale with level, so you're doing 2d10 damage. However, your invocations are Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast.
Now you're doing 2d10 + 8 damage (potentially 18 cha, two rays) oh, and pushing the opponent some feet.
Warlocks can also cast Hex. 2d10 +1d6 + 8 damage.
BUT assassins AND sorcerer quicken spell can increase damage. double damage, and double the dice again.
Total: 8d10 + 4d6 + 16 dmg, average: 74.

Not bad for only an 8th level build. Bards can't really do that damage without dipping Sorc.

None of this matters, though, if you're dead-set on dipping bard (or vice versa with warlock). Both are perfectly fine choices.

How are you casting both hex and 2 cast of the cantrip during one round?

[TheOOB]

Mixing spellcasters is usually a bad idea. Any full caster will have enough spells to be casting for a half dozen encounters plus, and basic cantrip damage is bad. The Something 18/2 warlock trades your most powerful abilities for your (nearly) entire career and powerful spell slots for an auto attack you'll only use when you're out of the lessened amount of spells.

Warlock fares a little better, but once again, you're losing your best abilities for a few level 1 spells.

[squab]

And since quicken costs 2 points, you can do it once a day, maybe a couple times more by burning through all your sorc slots to get SPs. It's an impressive blow those few times you do it but you're paying a very heavy price for it as Odigity pointed out.

I can't see myself playing a sorc as a single-classed. They get only 15 spells known at 20th level--there's another thread about that. They seem like a class that needs to be mixed with another Cha caster. I think people just really love MM from 3.5, understandably, and now sorc is the only way to get it. What's the MM from 3.5? My first thought is Monster Manual...

[SouthpawSoldier]

What's the MM from 3.5? My first thought is Monster Manual...

Meta Magic; inherent in the 5e Sorcerer.

[lordshadowisle]

Mixing spellcasters is usually a bad idea. Any full caster will have enough spells to be casting for a half dozen encounters plus, and basic cantrip damage is bad. The Something 18/2 warlock trades your most powerful abilities for your (nearly) entire career and powerful spell slots for an auto attack you'll only use when you're out of the lessened amount of spells.

Warlock fares a little better, but once again, you're losing your best abilities for a few level 1 spells.

This is something true of multiclassing in general, it looks good at level X, but is generally a pain to play through to that level.

That said, I do think dips in warlock is an exception to this, because the warlock levels actually makes lower levels more endurable. I'll say that for casters in general, before level 6, you won't have the slots to spend slots in each battle, and even if you do, it will be a strategic cast of fireball or a buff before reverting to your cantrips or crossbow. Eldritch Blast + Hex makes early combats much easier. It also helps that the warlock spell slots are recovered per short rest, and you can take an at-will utility invocation to lessen resource issues.

At higher levels though, I agree with what you say; it can feel boring not to have the latest toys.

[TheOOB]

This is something true of multiclassing in general, it looks good at level X, but is generally a pain to play through to that level.

That said, I do think dips in warlock is an exception to this, because the warlock levels actually makes lower levels more endurable. I'll say that for casters in general, before level 6, you won't have the slots to spend slots in each battle, and even if you do, it will be a strategic cast of fireball or a buff before reverting to your cantrips or crossbow. Eldritch Blast + Hex makes early combats much easier. It also helps that the warlock spell slots are recovered per short rest, and you can take an at-will utility invocation to lessen resource issues.

At higher levels though, I agree with what you say; it can feel boring not to have the latest toys.

I'm not sure I agree. Let's say your a sorcerer. You can cast a d10 cantrip, the same damage as blast before the invocation. At level 5, and sorcerer will deal 2d10(11) damage with the cantrip, and a warlock will deal 2d10+6(17) on average, It's true the warlock deals more damage with their basic attack, but the sorcerer attack still is relevant. However you lose 2 3rd level spell slots, and 1 2nd level spells slot, thats once you can make a big play, and twice you can make the defining action in a round. That's twice you can 28 damage to a 20' sphere and once you can deal 21 damage to a single target. That's three fights you and entirly worse than a single classed sorcerer, and that sorc would still have 6 spell slots(not to mention sorcerery points), so they are not likely to need to use their cantrips alone for any fight, and even if they do, thats not that bad.

A couple things I think need to be noted. First is that the warlock has virtually no synergy with any caster Focusing on auto attacks and short rest abilities is for fighters, and thats what a warlock is, a warrior style class flavored like a caster.m A warlock shouldn't be treated like a true spellcaster, and the offer almost nothing to a spellcaster. You don't play a spellcaster to chip away at your foes health, that's your warriors job, you play a spellcaster because when the time is right you want to make a big damn impact on the session, so that when you cast the right spell at the right moment you hold the entire game in the palm of your hand. Casting one of your high level spells is like telling the DM to step aside for a moment, letting you take control for a round. A fighter or warlock is good all the time, but a full caster a few times per day are great. Trading greatness for mediocrity seems like a waste to me.

I don't think I'd mix a warlock with another full caster in any build, and for any primarily full caster build I wouldn't multiclass at all, or at least if I did I'd either a)pick another full caster for a couple levels so at least I have my high level slots, or b)pick a class that has proficiencies I need(warlock offers nothing to full casters in this regard).

[lordshadowisle]

Hex makes the difference. At level 5, by expending 1 of 2 slots (that recover on a short rest), EB deals 2(1d10+3+1d6) = 24 damage. This is outright superior to a level 2 spell (and scorching ray is no slouch either!). It's perfectly plausible for a Sorc3/WL2 to spend no other spell resources on combat, and still be as effective as the sorc 5 in all but 2 battles. All other spell slots can be spent to solve other problems. You can even burn warlock slots to rebuild your spell points!

I think that is the advantage of a warlock dip: it greatly raises the minimum level that you can fight at. In the worst case, when all your other resources are spent, you'll still be good. I find this to be one of the major issues that spellcasters face at low levels- insufficient slots to do everything. Spend wrongly, and you could be useless for the battle at the end of the day.

As for usefulness of the dip later, at higher levels, Hex+EB obsoletes even level 3 (and sometimes 4) spells in terms of single target damage. And at that point, you'll have enough spell points to repeatably quicken it for more damage. These numbers are nothing to scoff at. The loss is usually a single casting of a higher level spell, which admittedly is powerful, is a narrow difference. In this light, your statement that "Trading greatness for mediocrity" is quite odd; you can still cast everything else! One spell, even wish, does not make the difference between greatness and mediocrity.

While I can see your point in noting the warlock's similarity to warriors, I think you're drawing an artificial definition of a "true spellcaster", and naturally by that criteria, the warlock dip falls short.

[SharkForce]

i would further add that while getting only level 5 slots when you could be getting level 6 slots is a bit of a downer, the simple truth is that level 2 and 3 spells are pretty much your meat and potatoes as an arcane caster and once you're past that point you're losing relatively little. hypnotic pattern, web, fear, phantasmal force, etc. (with sometimes level 4 and 5 spells mixed in; banishment, confusion, bigby's hand, etc) are the main spells you're expecting to use as daily resources. certainly, it is a great benefit to be able to throw around a mass suggestion or sunbeam once per day. certainly, when you could be casting wish you'll be a bit sad to only have access to level 8 spells.

but really, at level 20, there's a lot of value to be had from throwing web at a dragon and watching it crash to the ground, prone and restrained for a round. higher level spells are often better, but lower level spells are typically still quite relevant (and in some cases just straight up better; web is frankly better than flesh to stone, for example). they have the same DC, after all.

a warlock splash can go a long way towards making you substantially more relevant throughout the entire day at low levels, and doesn't carry an unbearable cost at high levels.

[MrStabby]

Hopefully it is not too unwelcome but I will broaden my reply a little to address one of the points made - that multiclassing casters is usually a bad idea.

Generally I accept this but there are a few exceptions.

So if you are going to multiclass you lose out on high level spells if not spell slots. This means your character concept should not be about high level spells. I have seen a few things that have given players great fun:

1) A touch of paladin and a warlock dip. This allows smite damage from extra spell slots from the warlock and can use pact of the blade for the second attack. This is predominantly a melee combination with a lot of utility spells.

2) Adding some sorcerer for metamagic. Instead of high level spells you cast a lot of low level spells quickly.

3) Using something like a necromancer build - necromancer 6 + Warlock will quickly build a decent undead army whilst still giving you awesome at will damage from level 8. Level 3+ spell slots replenish your minions between encounters and level 2 or less slots are used for utility.

4) A level of cleric to get a domain feature and access to level 1 cleric spells. This is not so bad for a warlock who can use any unspent spell slots to revive the party between short rests (life cleric makes this awesome AND gives weapon and armor proficiency (as well as spell slots)).

5) Use warlock and another caster for great versatility, a wide choice of spells and focus on making the most of low level spells. Spells like hold person are pretty great when you can cast them out of lots of slots and basically get at least one per encounter. Web was also given as an example - the problem is that you have to be willing to play support here (and hence worry less about losing Hex).



If you do want to multi-class make sure you are happy with the awesome things you can do other than high level spells. Things like Osiris's suggested build might be in here - your low frequency assassinate damage is basically equivalent to your high level spells. If your high level enemies are likely to be packing counterspell you may be better not relying on single super-spells per encounter.

[Dralnu]

Before the errata, I would've said nah to MC'ing as a sorcerer. But now that scorching ray is a lot less powerful for dragon sorcerers, dipping two levels into warlock seems like the best way to get powerful damage, especially single-target. Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast is battlefield control, high damage, and force damage works on most monsters. That's worth the two level delay imo.

[Citan]

Mixing spellcasters is usually a bad idea. Any full caster will have enough spells to be casting for a half dozen encounters plus, and basic cantrip damage is bad. The Something 18/2 warlock trades your most powerful abilities for your (nearly) entire career and powerful spell slots for an auto attack you'll only use when you're out of the lessened amount of spells.

Warlock fares a little better, but once again, you're losing your best abilities for a few level 1 spells.
You're awfully severe on your conclusion, I'd daresay you're wrong.
First, unless you go past 3 levels in other classes, you'll get at least one lvl9 known spell. And you'll ever get one 9th spell slot max. So, while it's nice to know two or three lvl9 spells, it's not character-breaking. Same with abilities from lvl18 to 20 to range from great to lacklusting.

Second, it all depends on your playstyle and objectives. There are examples of intelligent mixes (some may have been quoted already)...

Some classic combos...
Paladin 12 / Warlock 8: provides 2 maximum smites per short rest (and exclusive spells you can use with classic spell slots), which means much more efficiency in the day (if classic rythm of 6-8 encouters).
Sorcerer X / Warlock 3+: Just this dip provides a better MMP regeneration than Sorcerer's lvl 20 capstone (2 lvl2 = 6 MMP), and going 2/3 more levels ups the ante to 10 points (or provide short-rest Fireballs if you'd prefer), in addition to other benefits (Pact Feature, other exclusive spells etc).

Cleric + Druid: either...
- light dip in Druid (Cleric main) for cantrips and some spells (like Shillelagh for a War Cleric), or
- more heavy investment in Land Circle to get specific spells (Moonbeam, Conjure Animals etc) and spell slot recovery, or
- light dip in Cleric (Druid main) to get Domain bonus (like Tempest for Call Lightning, Life to be a good healer, Trickster to launch spells from another point etc).

These are the most obvious that come to mind, but I'm sure there are many others... Only one difficult to mix with is Wizard because only INT-based caster (before maybe a Mystic archetype is published)...

In short, the pertinence of multiclassing will really depend on your character fluff, playstyle and expected attainable level...

[ImperiousLeader]

I'll admit, I think multiclassing dilutes a lot of core class power. 2 levels of warlock puts you behind a spell level for most of your career. That's later access to higher tier spells, feats, class features, etc. Most "builds", seem to start at a higher level. Does this make sense as you level? Does my third level Sorcerer really want to detour through two levels of warlock, delaying access to 3rd level spells and a feat/stat bump? Personally, that's probably a no. Others may see the advantage.

[JAL_1138]

Also, unless I'm mistaken, you only get to cast the Bard spells you know as rituals, so unless you're dipping warlock to power up the bard via EB and a couple of recharging Warlock slots, a warlock dipping Bard doesn't really get much.

[Dralnu]

I'll admit, I think multiclassing dilutes a lot of core class power. 2 levels of warlock puts you behind a spell level for most of your career. That's later access to higher tier spells, feats, class features, etc. Most "builds", seem to start at a higher level. Does this make sense as you level? Does my third level Sorcerer really want to detour through two levels of warlock, delaying access to 3rd level spells and a feat/stat bump? Personally, that's probably a no. Others may see the advantage.

Not at early levels, but by level 11 Agonizing EB gets pretty significant.

For an example (and because I spend too much time thinking about it) the sorcerer I play is currently level 7. I plan on taking my 8th or 9th levels in warlock for agonizing EB. The tradeoff is:

Warlock:
- two cantrips: eldritch blast, something
- two spell slots (1st): hex, hellish rebuke
- dark one's blessing: killing creatures gives 7 temp HP
- two invocations: agonizing blast, repelling blast

At character lvl 11, you can spend 2 SP to quicken EB for 6d10+30 (63) force damage that pushes the target. You could Hex twice per short rest for quickened EB 6d10+6d6+30 (84) damage. A quickened Fire Bolt is only doing 6d10+10 (43) damage at this point.

But you've missed out on 2 SP, spell slots; and delayed Dragon Wings, Dragon Presence, ASI's, Metamagic, access to your higher lvl spells

It's a serious trade off but I think it's worth it for some folk. Me personally, I'm playing a typical fire mage, so at some point soon I'll need to take that lame feat that ignore elemental resistance, but I'm still boned against fire immunity. The warlock dip gives me sweet consistent damage that is also force so I don't even need the feat. Extra bonus!