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JackMage666
2007-03-28, 06:59 PM
Is it just me, or did Truenamers get the short end of hte stick? I mean, they start off with a good selection of skills, as well as the proficiencys roughly equal to a Cleric, if I remember correctly. But, then take into account the fact that their abilities are ever increasingly hard to use, as the DC to use an Utterance is 15+(2xCR or HD of target). They are increasingly difficult to use, and their utterances arn't even all that great. I don't get it, why did Wizards make the Truenamer so difficult to use? I mean, sure, it can be done, but it's constantly difficult, for abilities that arn't all that great.

Is there something I'm missing that makes the Truenamer decen even?

EvilElitest
2007-03-28, 07:00 PM
Yeah i was wondering about that myself. And binders for that matter.
from,
EE

Assassinfox
2007-03-28, 07:24 PM
Nope. You're not missing anything. Truenamers DO get the short end of the stick. They're the illegitimate lovechild of a melee fighter and a spellcaster.

Nifft
2007-03-28, 07:29 PM
When you look at the expected total skill bonus for an "expert" (for someone who cares about having a high skill check), you'll see that they scale pretty well with that formula. Pretty well, not perfectly, because there are a lot of uneven spots.

The real issue is: against critters of your CR, you are fine. Against critters higher than your CR, you're in trouble: thus, Truenamers make the Worst Buffer Cohorts Evar(tm).

At level 1, I'd expect a Truenamer's skill check to look like this:
Ranks = 4
Int = 14 = +2
Extras = Skill Focus (+3)
Total = d20 + 9 = 10 - 29
vs. CR 1-3 (DC 17 - 21)

At level 8, I'd expect a Truenamer's base skill check to look like this:
Ranks = 11
Int = 18 (14 +2 level +2 headband) = +4
Extras = Skill Focus (+3), Amulet (+5) = +8
Total = d20 + 23 = 24 - 43
vs CR 6-10 (DC 27 - 35)

At level 14, I'd expect a Truenamer's base skill check to look like this:
Ranks = 17
Int = 22 (14 +3 level +4 headband +1 wish) = +6
Extras = Skill Focus (+3), Amulet (+10), Luckstone (+1)
Total = d20 + 37 = 38 - 57
vs. CR 12-16 (DC 39 - 47)

At level 20, I'd expect a Truenamer's base skill check to look like this:
Ranks = 23
Int = 30 (14 +5 level +6 headband +5 wishes) = +10
Extras = Skill Focus (+3), Amulet (+10), Luckstone (+1)
Total = d20 + 47 = 48 - 67
vs. CR 18-22 (DC 51 - 59)


Now, note how after level one I say "base skill check" instead of "skill check". That's because, after 1st level, I expect a Truenamer to have access to one or more of the following temporary skill boosters:
- That skill boosting Utterance (+5 for 5 rounds)
- A spellcaster, or some wands, for guidance (+1 once), prayer (+1 for 1 round/level), heroism (+2 for 10 min/level) and/or heroism, greater (+4 for 1 min/level), good hope (+2 to 1 subject/level for 1 min/level)
- A Bard who can Inspire Competence (+2 for up to 2 minutes)
- Action Points
- A custom item that gives you another +2, +4 or +10

... though those last two are house rules territory, many of the others will stack, since the amulet gives an Enhancement bonus and most of the other effects give Morale (spells) or Competence (Bardic Music).

So your maxed out temporary bonus at 20th level would be:

Utterance (+5), greater heroism (+4 morale), Bardic Music (+2 competence) = +11 over and above your regular bonuses.


Basically, it's balanced, but only if your DM gives you access to the assumed D&D wealth levels, and only if your DM throws mostly level-appropriate encounters at you. You will shine brighter against weak foes, and lose the spotlight when facing the BBEG ("boss fights").

If you take some wands, scrolls or staves and Use Magic Device your way through the end fights, you can win there too, though. :)

Cheers, -- N

The_Snark
2007-03-28, 07:41 PM
Basically, the Truenamer's problem stems from the fact that it's a skill-based system, and Wizards wanted to make sure it couldn't be abused. What they ended up doing was calculating how high a Truespeaker's Truespeak skill could get at a certain level (without resorting to custom material); this basically means having a starting Int score of 16 or 18, putting most if not all stat increases into Int, Skill Focus (truespeak), and the most powerful Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Headband of Intellect that the truespeaker could reasonably be expected to have. A truespeaker with all that will have a good shot at affecting enemy creatures with utterances.

Example: At level 5, let's assume Truespeaker Bob has max ranks in Truespeak, Skill Focus (truespeak), and Int 17. He's got a modifier of +14, which is on average 24.5. Compare this to the DC of 25 for a CR 5 creature, and you're not too far off, particularly since higher Int scores or even magic items could reasonably be available at this level.

At level 1, Bob had 16 Int and 4 ranks of Truespeak, giving him a +7 modifier as compared to a CR 1 creature's DC 17.

At level 20, Bob will have 23 ranks of Truespeak, Skill Focus, an Int of... let's say 20 without modifiers, plus 6 for a Headband of Intellect +6, plus a +4 inherent bonus from wishes or tomes, for a total of Int 30. He also has an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10. Bob now has a Truespeak modifier of +46, doing reasonably well against a CR 20 creature's DC 55.

Unfortunately, what this means is that any truenamer who didn't do everything possible to max out Truespeak is screwed. Can't find tomes or someone to cast lots of Wishes? That'll hurt. Didn't roll an 18 and put it in Int? You can get by with 16, but you'll have to stick all your stat increases there. Didn't take Skill Focus? Well, that one was your own fault, but it'll still hurt you a bit. Your DM didn't give you an Amulet of the Silver Tongue or headband of intellect? That'll kill you at high levels, especially the amulet. Basically, the truenamer's ability to function depends largely on the DM and the availability of magic items. I don't think that was really necessary, given that utterances are not all that powerful.

It's good against lower CR creatures, since the DCs are lower, but most utterances affect only 1 creature, so there goes any advantage you might have had against lots of smaller enemies. Against foes with CR higher than your level, you're best off buffing party members. Utterances often allow saving throws, too, which are always lower than spells... just not all that good.

EE, not sure why you're talking about binders. They're fine; just have to choose vestiges that work well together, and a wrong choice only lasts a day. They aren't on the level of a druid or wizard, but the ability to change party roles on a daily basis is valuable.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-28, 07:44 PM
Truenamers are certianly interesting, a good option to use if wizards are to high magic for your game, and i think the DC's are fine personaly, never played one but i hope to some day

EvilElitest
2007-03-28, 07:55 PM
Binders are nice, but they rely on getting the right vistages. I don't trust my DM enough maybe. But if you discount them, they you don't have much. Anyways, its irrelevant.
from,
EE

Druid
2007-03-28, 08:05 PM
The DCs are stupid high. At level 20 unless you have an item to increase your skill check you need to roll a 19 to affect anything of appropriate CR (this is assuming that you've managed 34 intelligence, maxed skill ranks, and taken skill focus). With the DC scaling per use that means you can use a true speaking ability once a day with only a 10% chance of it working in the first place. Wizards obviously figured people would be buying items that give a huge skill boost, but wouldn't it have been better to just add a rule to the true speak skill description that magic items cannot be created to give a bonus to it? You shouldn't need an expensive magic item to use your most basic class abilities. Most of the true speaking abilities aren't even that good. Warlocks get better stuff at will without jumping through the hoops of a poorly thought out skill check system. So no, you're not missing anything, the true namer is just one of the most poorly designed classes in DnD.

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 08:10 PM
I like the idea of Truenamers, though, that's the problem. I think it'd be cool to play one, but I do hate failing as horribly as one probably would. Well, at least the dice gods seem to like me, and I got really high stats (the DM's method of rolling gives REALLY high stats, so my base of 18,18,18,17,17,16 isn't bad at all, and totally legal) so maybe I can make a usable Truespeaker.

martyboy74
2007-03-28, 08:12 PM
I like the idea of Truenamers, though, that's the problem. I think it'd be cool to play one, but I do hate failing as horribly as one problem would. Well, at least the dice gods seem to like me, and I got really high stats (the DM's method of rolling gives REALLY high stats, so my base of 18,18,18,17,17,16 isn't bad at all, and totally legal) so maybe I can make a usable Truespeaker.
...how the hell is your DM generating stats? :smalleek:

JackMage666
2007-03-28, 08:15 PM
Something along the lines of 4d6, reroll all 1s and 2s, repeat 12 times, and pick out the best 6. The lowest any score can be is 9, and that is far more rare than rolling an 18. Oh, and, if you don't like it, you get 1 free reroll as well. Yeah, really powerful. Still, this was a lucky set of rolls, so it's like the cosmos favored my truenamer.

Edit - Damn "1" key.. Good thing I have 2.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-28, 08:20 PM
thats a high powered game...and on the topic of items that give you a bonus, there is an item that gives you a +10 in the book...so if you dont buy it your silly

Jerthanis
2007-03-28, 08:25 PM
I've actually kind of had this problem with all three of the types of new spellcasters detailed in the Tome of Magic. I start reading their flavor and I can't control my exuberance, "This is amazingly cool flavor! I can't wait to play a character like this!" then I get to the mechanics and I say, "Wait... the Shadowcaster has a split casting stat, but doesn't even get bonus slots/day? You mean I've gotta survive on 1/day crappy mysteries, no armor and d6 HD, dealing with impeded saves because I've gotta pump my Intelligence just to keep gaining mysteries?" and my enthusiasm fades. I move on, reading the next one and once again gain amazing hope for a fresh new class that will carry with it amazing flavor and interesting, new mechanics and twice more I find my hopes dashed on the surface of the troublesome mechanics.

TSGames
2007-03-28, 09:11 PM
I've actually kind of had this problem with all three of the types of new spellcasters detailed in the Tome of Magic. I start reading their flavor and I can't control my exuberance, "This is amazingly cool flavor! I can't wait to play a character like this!" then I get to the mechanics and I say, "Wait... the Shadowcaster has a split casting stat, but doesn't even get bonus slots/day? You mean I've gotta survive on 1/day crappy mysteries, no armor and d6 HD, dealing with impeded saves because I've gotta pump my Intelligence just to keep gaining mysteries?" and my enthusiasm fades. I move on, reading the next one and once again gain amazing hope for a fresh new class that will carry with it amazing flavor and interesting, new mechanics and twice more I find my hopes dashed on the surface of the troublesome mechanics.
No armor? You're doing something wrong... you should read the feat still mystery.

AmberVael
2007-03-28, 09:36 PM
Well, the problem I run into is that, even should you be able to use your utterances, you really don't gain much from it.
The buffs you have will be fairly hard to use on your allies due to their class levels. You may be able to use them- once or twice. Even then, they aren't very helpful.
By the time you have slightly useful buffs, using them on your allies is nigh impossible.

Well, what about the other ones, hm?
Okay, so you can hit an enemy for about your level worth of d6's. Maybe. Once a day or so. Over two rounds.
Big whoop. I'll make a Warlock who can do better. And more often.

By the time you have a useful control utterance (Dominate-like) you won't be able to hit someone with it, because you'll be level 18. And so will they.

And then...
But then...
What about the Lexicon of the Perfect Map?
The DC includes a target creature... some of them don't HAVE a target...
So is the DC 15? Is it 25 for a "non magical item?"
If so... woohoo... infinite Gate spell.
But I can't find a place it specifies.

Suffice to say, the Truename magic section is too hard on the poor guys. They get fewer potential utterances per day than a wizard gets spells, less OPTIONS than a wizard gets for using spells, and the utterances they DO get and CAN use are worse than an equivalent level spell.

Why did such a good idea have to get such a bad mechanical system?

My thought?
Truenamers: Warlocks with Skill Checks.

Kultrum
2007-03-28, 10:01 PM
their a great idea, however wizards did it all wrong, its my how that in an upcoming book they will redo the class so that it is possible to be a n effective truenamer without spending all your time uping your truespeak checks.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-28, 10:08 PM
hopefully, i wouldnt mind seeing them supported along with the tome of battle

Jerthanis
2007-03-29, 06:08 AM
No armor? You're doing something wrong... you should read the feat still mystery.

But you still have to deal with the Armor check penalty unless you blow more feats on the armor proficiency, and... well, I guess you can suck up the Armor check penalty without too much trouble due to the limited number of touch or ranged touch mysteries. But still, a split casting stat is painful enough when you're not dealing with such limited number of times/day and limited also by a limited selection of newer and better mysteries (the paths system is interesting, but terribly implemented, as it can be very hard to get the mysteries you want at each level.)

I guess I'm most put off by the Shadow magic user because I was most excited by it, and thus the letdown when I finally got to the point where I realized it wasn't all that well done mechanically. Truenamers and Binders both seemed to get even shorter ends of the stick, but I hadn't been as stoked to play one as I had a Shadow magic user.

Khantalas
2007-03-29, 06:23 AM
But you still have to deal with the Armor check penalty unless you blow more feats on the armor proficiency...

Mithral chain shirt. Mithral shield. That is all.

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 09:59 AM
Throw on Twightlight to the Mithral Chain Shirt, and you don't even need Still Mystery.

Druid
2007-03-29, 10:56 AM
thats a high powered game...and on the topic of items that give you a bonus, there is an item that gives you a +10 in the book...so if you dont buy it your silly

Yes, but it shouldn't be necessary. Without a magic item only the most optimized truenamers can even use their mediocre abilities and even then not very well.

Draz74
2007-03-29, 11:24 AM
I've actually kind of had this problem with all three of the types of new spellcasters detailed in the Tome of Magic. I start reading their flavor and I can't control my exuberance, "This is amazingly cool flavor! I can't wait to play a character like this!" then I get to the mechanics and I say, "Wait... the Shadowcaster has a split casting stat, but doesn't even get bonus slots/day? You mean I've gotta survive on 1/day crappy mysteries, no armor and d6 HD, dealing with impeded saves because I've gotta pump my Intelligence just to keep gaining mysteries?" and my enthusiasm fades. I move on, reading the next one and once again gain amazing hope for a fresh new class that will carry with it amazing flavor and interesting, new mechanics and twice more I find my hopes dashed on the surface of the troublesome mechanics.

OK, in response to all of this, here's the thing I've concluded:

ONE MAJOR PURPOSE OF TOME OF MAGIC WAS TO PROVIDE A SPELLCASTER NERF.

People complain all the time, "Full casters win D&D so bad, it's not even funny. How can we fix this?"
Well, here's the simplest possible answer: "Use Tome of Magic classes instead of core full casters."
Is the truenamer weak when compared to the Rogue, Barbarian, etc.? Maybe ... but only a little bit, if so.
Look at the truenamer carefully, you'll find ways to make it pass its skill checks fairly reliably and ways to make it influence the battle when it does pass its checks. The CharOp board has found (cheesy) ways to make your Truespeak check so high you want to cry. People who think the Truenamer's magic (when successful) isn't as good as the Warlock's are using the wrong utterances. Doing damage with the Word of Nurturing spells is about the worst thing you can be doing in most cases; those utterances are meant to be mainly for healing.

Want good utterances? Many utterances are decent, depending on your build and party (e.g. Archer's Eye for a Truenamer Archer); but here are the ones that really stand out:
- Universal Aptitude is probably the most important utterance. Besides being generally useful, you can buff yourself with it at the start of an important batte, then get 5 rounds of +5 Truespeak checks!
- Seek the Sky (normal or Greater)! Giving your party flying is always good ... but there's also a no-save-anti-flying ability here that will make you the best friend of all your melee allies!
- Temporal Spiral: Duplicate the best ability (Grant Move Action) of the Marshall class.
- Word of Nurturing: The higher-level Nurturing words are decent healing. They can't replace a good Cleric, since they work gradually; but they'll make the Cleric's spells and Wands of Cure Light Wounds go a lot further if you use them between battles. Don't use for damage except in emergencies. (Your Truenamer should be a half-decent combatant anyway, without using utterances.)
- Magic Contraction: If you have an arcane caster in the party, this is an amazing way to boost him.
- Word of Bolstering: Like Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness in one, only it can do Con penalties if you want too. And works as a sort of Restoration spell in a pinch too.
- Essence of Lifespark: Not as good as Enervation. But then, I did admit these casters were supposed to be weaker than core casters. If your Truespeak check is good, you can eventually make a character really really bad with these negative levels.
- Mystic Rampart: Your caster friends will really love when you give a foe -5 saves.
- Fortify Armor: Armor of Fortification is critical when fighting NPC rogues, but expensive. Get it for free.
- Conjunctive Gate: I think people know this one.
- Fog from the Void: Not that hard to duplicate the wizard's coveted Solid Fog.


What about the Lexicon of the Perfect Map?
The DC includes a target creature... some of them don't HAVE a target...
So is the DC 15? Is it 25 for a "non magical item?"
If so... woohoo... infinite Gate spell.
But I can't find a place it specifies.

It's in the book's errata, which you can download from the Wizards site. I think it's 25 + (5 * Utterance Level).

AmberVael
2007-03-29, 12:42 PM
OK, in response to all of this, here's the thing I've concluded:

ONE MAJOR PURPOSE OF TOME OF MAGIC WAS TO PROVIDE A SPELLCASTER NERF.
People complain all the time, "Full casters win D&D so bad, it's not even funny. How can we fix this?"
Well, here's the simplest possible answer: "Use Tome of Magic classes instead of core full casters."
And they did. But... they did it too late.
And now people are used to wizards and sorcerers.
So this class is terrible in comparison.

And yeah, the Truenamer has some okay utterances. Some. Okay.
The Wizard, as stated, or even the Sorcerer, for crying out loud, will be able to have the same (if not better) spells which they DON'T have to use checks for.
The Warlock has his fair share of handy abilities too, if a few less and maybe a bit less powerful... but he gets them all day long.
Even the Binder and Shadowcaster have better things going for them, in comparision to mister linguisitics master. The Binder has his abilities all day long and is a far better combatant as well.
The Shadow Caster has a similar issue of limited number of spells like the Truename, but they don't have checks either.

Yeah, the Truenamer is meant to be a nerfed caster. But they didn't remove the old spell system. And even the other new 'spellcasters' are better than him.

I'd cite some stuff, but I don't have my book with me. Maybe later I'll bring up the evidence.

Draz74
2007-03-29, 01:00 PM
And they did. But... they did it too late.
And now people are used to wizards and sorcerers.
So this class is terrible in comparison.

True. But this is silly, when it comes from the same people who complain about the wizards' and sorcerers' power.


And yeah, the Truenamer has some okay utterances. Some. Okay.
The Wizard, as stated, or even the Sorcerer, for crying out loud, will be able to have the same (if not better) spells which they DON'T have to use checks for.
The Warlock has his fair share of handy abilities too, if a few less and maybe a bit less powerful... but he gets them all day long.

Well, some of the Utterances I listed are actually things the Sorc/Wiz surprisingly can't duplicate.

Yeah, I guess the Truenamer and Warlock are about equal in power. Which means the Truenamer is underpowered. But not as underpowered as most people say. (Way better than the Samurai!)


Even the Binder and Shadowcaster have better things going for them, in comparision to mister linguisitics master. The Binder has his abilities all day long and is a far better combatant as well.
The Shadow Caster has a similar issue of limited number of spells like the Truename, but they don't have checks either.

I haven't playtested the Shadowcaster enough to really get a feel for its power, but from reading the classes carefully ... I'd actually rather play a Truenamer than a Shadowcaster. Shadowcaster seems just as weak and with less fun of a style than Truenamer.

Binder is slightly better than the other two. This is the power level all three of them should have had.


Yeah, the Truenamer is meant to be a nerfed caster. But they didn't remove the old spell system. And even the other new 'spellcasters' are better than him.


They didn't dare suggest explicitly to remove the old spell system. They left that up to brave DMs. Or (judging by the PrCs in ToM) they just assumed that the old spell system will co-exist with the less-broken one, but at least now, players who like casting but don't want to be overpowered have a way to do it.

I agree the Truenamer could use a bit of a boost. What do you suggest?

(Oh, one other thing about the Truenamer that people tend to overlook that makes him much better: UMD! Unlike the Warlock, he's easily got plenty of skill points to spend on it! Yay for casting whatever wizard spells he wants, in a pinch!)

Druid
2007-03-29, 01:32 PM
I agree the Truenamer could use a bit of a boost. What do you suggest?

How about lowering the utterance DCs? You admitted yourself that you need charop board level cheese to get a decent check modifier. My solution was to change the DC to 15 (I think, it's been a while since I played) +CR with the added rule that true naming rolls can't be enhanced by magic items. In my eyes magic items are the problem in the first place. The possibility of an item granting +30 (no such item has been published, but the rules allow it) to checks is what necessitates the incredibly high scaling on the DCs. Making it balanced for someone who uses an item like that makes it impossible for someone with out that item to be at all useful.

AmberVael
2007-03-29, 02:22 PM
Honestly, the best way to pump up your truespeak skill is to get your DM to allow an Item Familiar (from UA, but is also listed in the d20 SRD).
Invest Ranks ftw!

The_Snark
2007-03-29, 04:20 PM
I haven't playtested the Shadowcaster enough to really get a feel for its power, but from reading the classes carefully ... I'd actually rather play a Truenamer than a Shadowcaster. Shadowcaster seems just as weak and with less fun of a style than Truenamer.

Binder is slightly better than the other two. This is the power level all three of them should have had.

Agreed for the most part, but I like the shadowcaster rather better than the truenamer. Mechanics-wise, it's like a sorcerer that's been taken down a peg or two. At very low levels, it's sort of unplayable—you have one ability, usable once a day, and most of the 1st-level mysteries are lackluster. And then you have what are fundamentally cantrips. As you get into level 5 it becomes tolerable, and then as you get to level 7 and get more uses of everything (as well as access to Black Magic), it becomes better. The lower levels could use boosting, but that's about all, I think. More mystery paths would help too.

Flavor-wise, I like it a lot; it takes a lot out of old stories, which traditional magic does also, and leaves it unmodified. Now, instead of generically using magic to control someone's mind or kill them, you can steal their shadow and use it to control them.


As for balancing Truenamers, rather than a skill it could be based on a level check; something like Truenamer level +Int modifier. The feat Truespeak Training would make that level check into character level+Int. You aren't losing much flavor-wise, and it cuts out a lot of the possibilities for abuse—no more +30 Truespeak items, Exemplar levels, etc. Now the DCs can be set at a reasonable level.

And get rid of (or at least change) the Law of Resistance, too. The truenamer's abilities are already unreliable, the least you could do is let them keep trying.

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 07:58 PM
Well, with a ECL 7 character, I managed to make a cahracter with +32 on Truespeak checks, but thats with the Amulet of the Silver Tongue (+10), and I created the Lesser Ring od Truespeaking (+5 Circumstance), as well as Skill Focus, max skills, and 18. This cost me 12,500 gp, so my weapon and armor hurt a bit, but that's alright, I suppose. It was to be expected, after all.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-29, 08:02 PM
Custom magic items are by DM fiat though. A self founded weapon of legacy could give a competence bonus too. Truenamers would work well in Eberron, an artificer can give pretty decent skill boosts. Bracelets of spellsharing and a caster able to cast improvisation at the start of an encounter also helps a lot.

JackMage666
2007-03-29, 08:10 PM
He allowed me to make a +5 UMD item once, 2.5 K, just like all the other circumstance bonus ones. Given the classes ridiculously high DCs, I think he'd understand, and any other DM should as well, if their player is willing to take on this gimped class.

Starsinger
2007-03-29, 08:24 PM
- Seek the Sky (normal or Greater)! Giving your party flying is always good ... but there's also a no-save-anti-flying ability here that will make you the best friend of all your melee allies!


As long as an Utterance is active, you can't utter it again until its duration ends. So you can't give your entire party flying at once, I suppose you could give it to them one at a time, or two at a time with both

Draz74
2007-03-30, 01:00 PM
As long as an Utterance is active, you can't utter it again until its duration ends. So you can't give your entire party flying at once, I suppose you could give it to them one at a time, or two at a time with both

True ... I didn't mean the whole party. The ones with ranged attacks, for example, don't need it as often.