Level 3 is half the early game

[odigity]

I'm playing in two 5e games so far. In both, I've been at level 3 for the last four sessions. I suspect WotC intended it to be this way, because it is the direct result of math.

The XP for creatures in the early game tends to double with each CR bump, and only starts curving down at CR3:

CR 1/8 = 25xp
CR 1/4 = 50xp
CR 1/2 = 100xp
CR 1 = 200xp
CR 2 = 450xp
CR 3 = 700xp
CR 4 = 1100xp

However, the XP to reach the next level tends to triple with each level (need 300% of previous goal each time), as opposed to late game when you only need 15-20% of previous goal for each level:

Lvl 2 = 300
Lvl 3 = 900
Lvl 4 = 2700
Lvl 5 = 6500

The dispartity between the mere doubling of XP/CR combined with the tripling of XP goals/lvl tends to peak right around levels 3-4. The end result is you spend about as much time at level 3 as you do at levels 1, 2, and 4 combined.

[MadGrady]

What games are you playing?

I know in the D&D Adventure League games we run, the minimum XP earned is 450 per game with the max being 600 per game. That should only be 4 games max after hitting level 3 cap of 900.

Edit - these caps change as we enter into higher tiers.

If yours is homebrew, might want to consider boosting xp gains from non-combat encounters and objectives as well (something AL does for their encounters)

[odigity]

What games are you playing?

I know in the D&D Adventure League games we run, the minimum XP earned is 450 per game with the max being 600 per game. That should only be 4 games max after hitting level 3 cap of 900.

Edit - these caps change as we enter into higher tiers.

If yours is homebrew, might want to consider boosting xp gains from non-combat encounters and objectives as well (something AL does for their encounters)

Both are normal home games, and in both we mostly just earn what we kill. We have 5-6 characters in each, so to yield 450xp for a night we'd have to kill 2250-2700xp worth of creatures, which is quite a lot at level 3. That's 22-27 orcs per night to hit your minimum (or 45-54 goblins, or 90-108 kobolds). Since we've mostly been fighting kobolds/goblins/orcs/hobgoblins/gnolls so far (occasionaly bugbear or owlbear), it's been slow going getting from 900 to close to 2700.

[Solzak]

Don't you get double xp when fighting multiple at the same time? Or is that for purely working out the CR amount?

[odigity]

Don't you get double xp when fighting multiple at the same time? Or is that for purely working out the CR amount?

All those tables and multipliers are just for estimating encounter difficulty relative to party size/levels using XP as the means of expression.

You are only actually rewarded the simple sum of the individual XP amounts for each creature defeated, divided among the party.

(Yes, this is stupid.)

[Theodoxus]

Yet another reason I use milestones - the PCs level when I want or need them to... Typically 2-3 sessions, depending on how much they accomplish to forward the metaplot.

This way, they get xp for 8 hours of non-dice RP that gets them information to the next chapter, or 8 hours of a boss fight with lieutenants that ends up being 4 minutes of in-game time.

Tangential PC driven plots don't reward XP - I find that players who want to do something specific in the world, are accounting for the world to be fairly static at the level they plotted it out. Granting xp/levels for side quests messes up the flow of the metagame and everyone suffers.

[jkat718]

I think your math checks out, but the reason that you've been stuck at level 3 for so long, I think, is that you have a large party. You have 6 players, when the assumed party size is 4. My group has the same problem. Just make sure your DM knows that (s)he should be adjusting your XP threshold because of your party size. Hopefully, that means you'll have harder encounters, and therefore more XP to divvy up.

[Selkirk]

we've been having a similar problem going from level 4 to level 5. now that were at level 4 were picking up like 300 xp per session(3 sessions in and about 900xp total)...which makes level 5 feel like level 20. i really like the session based guidelines from dmg (and from post above).

dmg session recommendations are hitting 2nd level after one session. hitting 3rd level after another session. then 2-3 sessions for each additional level (4 hour sessions). this actually feels a bit fast but would be an improvement over our present pace.

or alternately xp per adventuring day (6-8 medium to hard encounters ^^;..)...would yield 1200xp per day for 3rd and 1700/day for 4th.

for our group i think our dm is having a tough time scaling the encounters appropriately...not just xp wise but challenge wise (after 3 sessions i haven't even used a 2nd level spell and am resorting to my crossbow or cantrips for fighting). part of the problem is were using lmop and there just aren't enough interesting creatures...

[Endarire]

I agree on the "award levels, not EXP" notion. It's what I did for The Metaphysical Revolution (http://campbellgrege.com/work-listing/the-metaphysical-revolution-dd-3-5-module/).

[MadGrady]

Yeah, having such a large party is a big downside to the xp grind. Since they are homebrew games, you guys are much more free to adjust to you guys getting the increased encounter xp for gangs of baddies (instead of just standard kill xp) or to move to a more milestone method. Suggestions are to use your proficiency bonus as a guide for how many games to play before you level.

[odigity]

or alternately xp per adventuring day (6-8 medium to hard encounters ^^;..)...would yield 1200xp per day for 3rd and 1700/day for 4th.

The ecounters/day thing is such a generaliziation in a vacuum that it's basically useless.

When we're traveling overland, we tend to hit slightly less than 1 random encounter per day. However, when we're dungeering, that variable could be any number, and is basically controlled by the chars. For example, one of my two campaigns started in a converted version of Keep on the Borderlands / Caves of Chaos. Once we found the caves, we could have gone through them one by one and triggered 20+ encounters in one day if we didn't choose to short/long rest when we did.

And regardless, encounters / unit of game time has nothing to do with XP / unit of real life time, which is what controls how fast you level up.


for our group i think our dm is having a tough time scaling the encounters appropriately...not just xp wise but challenge wise (after 3 sessions i haven't even used a 2nd level spell and am resorting to my crossbow or cantrips for fighting). part of the problem is were using lmop and there just aren't enough interesting creatures...

I assume lmop = Lost Mine of Phandelver from the 5e Starter Set, which is what I'm playing in the other campaign. (I joined at level 2 after the original party had played 1-2 sessions.) So far we've encountered:

- the red brand gang, mostly low-level humans
- that weird one-eye creature that messed with your mind (we negotiated peacefully)
- the glassstaff spellcasting dude
- misc owlbears and stirges in the wild
- orcs, goblins, ogre (this encountered dropped me to 0hp for two rounds, closest we've been to "in trouble")
- necromancer + undead (negotiated peacefully)
- currently storming the castle in the woods, don't want to give away too much, but we managed to get one strong creature to fight another strong creature, so all in all, we've gotten off very easy throughout the whole thing

[odigity]

Yeah, having such a large party is a big downside to the xp grind. Since they are homebrew games, you guys are much more free to adjust to you guys getting the increased encounter xp for gangs of baddies (instead of just standard kill xp) or to move to a more milestone method. Suggestions are to use your proficiency bonus as a guide for how many games to play before you level.

But I don't want to "cheat". Meaning, if we're spending a lot of time discussing/debating tactics, or looking up rules questions, or getting off on tangents, and it results in us defeating less monsters / session, then that's our fault, and we should fix the problem, not ask the DM to fudge XP so we progress faster than we've earned.

I assume 5e was designed to progress chars at a certain rate based on the monster XP values alone, without assuming DM generousity in the from of per-goal/session/whatever boosts. (Much in the same way the game is balanced without magic items.) I would like to earn my levels within that framework, at least for my first few 5e campaigns.

[MadGrady]

But I don't want to "cheat". Meaning, if we're spending a lot of time discussing/debating tactics, or looking up rules questions, or getting off on tangents, and it results in us defeating less monsters / session, then that's our fault, and we should fix the problem, not ask the DM to fudge XP so we progress faster than we've earned.

I assume 5e was designed to progress chars at a certain rate based on the monster XP values alone, without assuming DM generousity in the from of per-goal/session/whatever boosts. (Much in the same way the game is balanced without magic items.) I would like to earn my levels within that framework, at least for my first few 5e campaigns.

The milestone method is actually a sanctioned method. Hoard of the Dragon Queen (the opening main adventure for this first season of Adventure League) allows the DM to choose to either grant XP or level based on Milestone. It actually says - if using milestone, then your players should now be X level.

So I don't want to insinuate that you all should cheat. What I am suggesting is that you should utilize the best method for your group. If that's to grind away on 400 kobolds, and your group actually enjoys that, then that's what you should do. If the grind isn't as popular, but your group likes to have more social/puzzle encounters, then start granting xp for those (something official D&D modules do as well). If it's still going slow, then institute minimum XP rewards for certain encounters. D&D does this as well with their modules. Everyone gets the minimum xp (whether they killed all the baddies or not) and then they have opportunity to earn more (with a max cap) based upon certain objectives throughout the module.

Don't cheat. But I do think it is ok to bend the game to your groups specific play style.

[Xetheral]

I think your math checks out, but the reason that you've been stuck at level 3 for so long, I think, is that you have a large party. You have 6 players, when the assumed party size is 4. My group has the same problem. Just make sure your DM knows that (s)he should be adjusting your XP threshold because of your party size. Hopefully, that means you'll have harder encounters, and therefore more XP to divvy up.

Unfortunately, scaling combat difficulty with party size is a very complicated undertaking, because the chance of PC death rises faster than the difficulty increases. The more experience one has as a DM, the easier it is to manage, but it's still quite tricky.

[Selkirk]

i think the session guidelines are good ones. 2-3 sessions (12 hours of play) however you do it ...either with combat or milestone/quest completion is a good length between levels. but it's just a guideline obviously...if the campaign is in an rpg heavy/political intrigue mode then spacing out levels to 4-6 sessions makes perfect sense.

the problem with the a combat focused campaign (like mine)- with no real xp rewards (or even challenging battles)- is that the sessions drag on and on between levels. but at that point just levelling isn't a fix (you aren't using any powers at a given level anyways). as long as the players are interested and engaged you could have a perfectly good campaign from levels 0-2 that lasts 6 months...but most campaigns and player groups aren't this way and that's where the session guidelines come into play -makes the dm think up more interesting/challenging encounters and better goals for the campaign.

notes-serious weakness with the xp/day is that fighting 40 orcs isn't that much more interesting than fighting 10...so milestones combined with xp is a better solution imo.

[odigity]

I agree milestones and other similar systems make sense game-balance-wise; I'm just biased against them because it doesn't feel right to me. I don't want my char advancing because of DM fiat (you're level 2 now!), I want pre-agreed upon rules that we all understand, and then to go earn my progress within the framework of those rules.

So, if milestones and side-quests had XP amounts associated with them and announced in advance, at least then I'd still feel like I'm control of my destiny and have earned what I got, because I knew what I would get and chose to go do it, and then succeeded.

It's entirely a subjective thing, granted.

[Selkirk]

and yeah i agree it feels somewhat weird just saying ok you guys are level 2 or 3 ..but if they defeat the swamp witch either thru combat or cunning then they get a certain number of xp makes sense to me. and it gives group flexibility, problem solving is as rewarding as hack and slash (altho i will always prefer hack and slash :D).

[MadGrady]

I agree milestones and other similar systems make sense game-balance-wise; I'm just biased against them because it doesn't feel right to me. I don't want my char advancing because of DM fiat (you're level 2 now!), I want pre-agreed upon rules that we all understand, and then to go earn my progress within the framework of those rules.

So, if milestones and side-quests had XP amounts associated with them and announced in advance, at least then I'd still feel like I'm control of my destiny and have earned what I got, because I knew what I would get and chose to go do it, and then succeeded.

It's entirely a subjective thing, granted.

I think this is a perfectly understandable viewpoint, and one I know you aren't alone in. You need to do what's right for your group.

With that viewpoint in mind, then I would recommend starting to add xp values to non-combat encounters, and mission objectives.

Ie - you are sent on a quest to retrieve the orb of whatsit from the Evil Mage Dude on the Island of Wheresthat

Locating the map to the hidden island of wheresthat = 50xp (for EACH character)
Capturing Mage Dude & bringing him back to town to face justice = 50xp (each)
Killing Mage for his crimes = 50 xp (each)
Defeating Mage Dude but he escapes justice and flees = 25xp (each)
Retrieving the orb = 100xp (each)


Therefore, on top of any xp you might get for defeating the guy and his minions, you also got xp from completing portions of the quest, and you can vary amounts based upon how well/poorly they completed said items.

This is how Encounters runs their stuff, and it is a very decent portion of the overall XP for the module.

[jkat718]

Unfortunately, scaling combat difficulty with party size is a very complicated undertaking, because the chance of PC death rises faster than the difficulty increases. The more experience one has as a DM, the easier it is to manage, but it's still quite tricky.

The rules for adjusting for other sizes are in the DMG, on p. 83. To summarize, it just says that the rules assume a party size of 4 or 5, and to use the next lowest multiplier of you have more people (and the next highest if you have more. The same text is written in the FreeMG.

[Xetheral]

The rules for adjusting for other sizes are in the DMG, on p. 83. To summarize, it just says that the rules assume a party size of 4 or 5, and to use the next lowest multiplier of you have more people (and the next highest if you have more. The same text is written in the FreeMG.

Good point. If the rules on encounter building work well enough to handle scaling up to larger party sizes, great! But in my experience I've never found encounter building rules to be worth much, other than as a baseline from which new DMs can learn what not to do.

[Yakk]

A reason you don't get multipliers for fighting larger groups of foes is that this rewards you for clumping foes.

Instead, figure out how to break enemy forces up into smaller clumps. Same XP, easier (and faster) fights.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For those interested, here's a level-by-level breakdown of how many Medium-difficulty encounters you would need to beat in order to level up at each level:

Level 1 -> Level 2: 300 xp, 6 encounters (at 50 xp each)
Level 2 -> Level 3: 600 xp, 6 encounters (at 100 xp each)
Level 3 -> Level 4: 1800 xp, 12 encounters (at 150 xp each)
Level 4 -> Level 5: 3800 xp, 15.2 encounters (at 250 xp each)
Level 5 -> Level 6: 7500 xp, 15 encounters (at 500 xp each)
Level 6 -> Level 7: 9000 xp, 15 encounters (at 600 xp each)
Level 7 -> Level 8: 11000 xp, 14.67 encounters (at 750 xp each)
Level 8 -> Level 9: 14000 xp, 15.56 encounters (at 900 xp each)
Level 9 -> Level 10: 16000 xp, 14.54 encounters (at 1100 xp each)
Level 10 -> Level 11: 19000 xp, 15.83 encounters (at 1200 xp each)
Level 11 -> Level 12: 15000 xp, 9.38 encounters (at 1600 xp each)
Level 12 -> Level 13: 20000 xp, 10 encounters (at 2000 xp each)
Level 13 -> Level 14: 20000 xp, 9.09 encounters (at 2200 xp each)
Level 14 -> Level 15: 25000 xp, 10 encounters (at 2500 xp each)
Level 15 -> Level 16: 30000 xp, 10.71 encounters (at 2800 xp each)
Level 16 -> Level 17: 30000 xp, 9.38 encounters (at 3200 xp each)
Level 17 -> Level 18: 40000 xp, 10.26 encounters (at 3900 xp each)
Level 18 -> Level 19: 40000 xp, 9.52 encounters (at 4200 xp each)
Level 19 -> Level 20: 50000 xp, 10.2 encounters (at 4900 xp each)

If you judge how leveling up is supposed to work on a per encounter basis, then as-is, you are basically fast tracked through levels 1 and 2 at 6 encounters per level, at which point the game slows down to a rate of 15 encounters per level from levels 4 through 11. From there, the game speeds up (somewhat) to a rate of about 10 encounters per level from 11 onward. Assuming an on-the-dot "Medium" encounter average.

The reason why enemy experience doesn't stack up like this is because past the first few levels, you are expected to (as a group) be able to take on more than one of a given creature, and the organization system for creature experience shifts to pairs and small groups, and groups of any size will always offer more experience than the sum of their parts due to the group multiplier. One Gnoll, for example, is an Easy encounter for a 1st-level party, awarding 25 xp each, whereas two Gnolls is considered a Hard encounter, offering 75 each: 25 per Gnoll, and then the total multiplied by 1.5 for the pairing.

[odigity]

For those interested, here's a level-by-level breakdown of how many Medium-difficulty encounters you would need to beat in order to level up at each level:

Thank you! That's mighty interesting and useful.


If you judge how leveling up is supposed to work on a per encounter basis, then as-is, you are basically fast tracked through levels 1 and 2 at 6 encounters per level, at which point the game slows down to a rate of 15 encounters per level from levels 4 through 11.

That's what I've been noticing. Level 4 felt like it took forever compares to level 2 and 3. Sad to see now (based on your chart) that it's only going to a little worse next level, and then hold there for a long time.


The reason why enemy experience doesn't stack up like this is because past the first few levels, you are expected to (as a group) be able to take on more than one of a given creature, and the organization system for creature experience shifts to pairs and small groups, and groups of any size will always offer more experience than the sum of their parts due to the group multiplier. One Gnoll, for example, is an Easy encounter for a 1st-level party, awarding 25 xp each, whereas two Gnolls is considered a Hard encounter, offering 75 each: 25 per Gnoll, and then the total multiplied by 1.5 for the pairing.

I'm afraid you are incorrect about this. You only get the sum of the XP of all creatures (divided by the party) for defeating them. No multipliers are used for this. The multipliers are only for estimating encounter difficulty. So, a goblin is worth 25xp, and two goblins together are only worth 50xp, even though you treat it as 75xp when calculating XP thresholds/budgets for encounter construction.

It's far more convoluted than it needed to be, and I would guess this mistake is quite rampant.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thank you! That's mighty interesting and useful.

You are welcome! :smallsmile:


That's what I've been noticing. Level 4 felt like it took forever compares to level 2 and 3. Sad to see now (based on your chart) that it's only going to a little worse next level, and then hold there for a long time.

That trend should be consistent if you are fighting encounters at-level, and that appears to be the designer's intent: fast-track you through the first levels (which are tutorial levels that most games skip anyways) and spend the bulk of the game between levels 4 and 10.


I'm afraid you are incorrect about this. You only get the sum of the XP of all creatures (divided by the party) for defeating them. No multipliers are used for this. The multipliers are only for estimating encounter difficulty. So, a goblin is worth 25xp, and two goblins together are only worth 50xp, even though you treat it as 75xp when calculating XP thresholds/budgets for encounter construction.

It's far more convoluted than it needed to be, and I would guess this mistake is quite rampant.

Yes, I see my mistake now. My bad.

[odigity]

...and that appears to be the designer's intent: fast-track you through the first levels (which are tutorial levels that most games skip anyways)...

I prefer starting at level 1 when possible, but I am glad to get to level 3 fast.

[Dalebert]

I prefer the completely arbitrary "DM feels like it's time for you to level" and he tells you to level up. Less math.