Genasi and level adjustment

[Marlowe]

http://feerune.online.free.fr/races%20classes/images/genasi-g.gif

I was looking at these the other day, and wondered why I never see them in-game. And then I looked at the stats and realised why. For +1LA Genasi get

*Outsider type
*Darkvision
*Level-based bonus to saving throws against spells of their chosen element
*Some very situational 1/day SLAs.
*A compulsion to chose the Domain of their native element should they take Cleric levels (no comment as to whether this displaces their chosen God's standard Domain choices, whether they simply can't follow a deity that doesn't offer the relevant domain, or what).
* -2 Charisma (all)
* -2 Wisdom (Air and Earth)
* +2 Dex and Int (Air)
* +2 Str and Con (Earth)
* +2 Int (fire)
* +2 Con (Water)
* Water Genasi have a swim speed and can breath water, while Air Genasi don't need to breathe.

These are from FR Campaign Setting. The listing for them in Monsters of Faerun is slightly different, but not really any better.

All this is...neat. But it seems very underwhelming for LA +1. There's no net gain to stats and aside from the Outsider type (which can be a two-edged sword) they don't seem all that exceptional even compared with some LA +0 races.

Would there be any huge problem with houseruling them down to LA +0?

[kenjigoku]

If you can get your hands on Savage Species and do an acid test on them we could know for sure if they deserve a +1 LA.

Personally, I would say go for it. +1 LA with buyoff is basically a small speed bump.

[Jeraa]

Players Guide to Faerun has a LA +0 version. Instead of being Outsiders, they are Humanoids with the Planetouched subtype.


Planetouched: Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders) with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.

[Red Fel]

Good news! The Player's Guide to Faerun has your back!

The PGtF contains an appendix entitled "Variants: Races with Level Adjustments". This section offers "Lesser Versions" of various LA +1 races, including the Planetouched. The "Lesser Planetouched" exchanges the Outsider (Native) type and subtype with the Humanoid (Planetouched) type and subtype, meaning that a Lesser Planetouched can be affected by spells that affect Humanoids as well as those which affect Outsiders. Your LA is reduced to +0, but all other attributes remain intact.

That's actually a really good trade-off. You lose the LA, and you can be affected by beneficial spells such as Enlarge Person.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Troacctid]

Just looking at the statblocks without having played them, I'd estimate their Lesser variants at around the same power level as Dwarves, give or take. Air and Fire Genasi are probably a little better because they give a bonus to a primary casting stat, but that's more a symptom of class balance than racial balance.

[Marlowe]

I'm well aware of the "Lesser Races" rule. I'm trying not to have a bar of it because then you open the door for Lesser Aasimar, Tiefling, Mechanatrix, Zenthyri and Chaond. All of whom are already decent at LA +1.

I'm asking if Genasi would be too much at LA +0 with type unchanged. They don't seem especially better than Neraph, who are currently the only LA+0 Outsider I can think of, and they seem a little underpowered in comparison to Hobgoblins, who I often see quoted as a race that barely deserves LA +1.

Anyway, I feel silly:
https://imageshack.com/a/img537/6006/wG6ncJ.gif

[Vhaidara]

I have actually allowed both Air and Earth at 0 in the past.

If you ever have trouble with a GM about it, consider trying to get the PF races ifrit, oread, sylph, and undine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races), which are, respectively, fire, earth, air, and water genasi in all but name. All of them are 6 Race Points (Undine is 7) in a system where humans are 10, so you have evidence that they aren't stronger than humans.

[Psyren]

I really like "Tieffelin" :smallbiggrin:

Personally I say it's fine - but then I'm biased by Pathfinder, whose genasi are already LA 0 outsiders. It doesn't break anything.

[(Un)Inspired]

I really like "Tieffelin" :smallbiggrin:

Personally I say it's fine - but then I'm biased by Pathfinder, whose genasi are already LA 0 outsiders. It doesn't break anything.

Built in genasi with no LA is probably my favorite part of pathfinder. I just miss fire genasi getting an int bump.

[Marlowe]

While I don't like much about Pathfinder or using it as a basis for comparison, it certainly is interesting that those PF versions of Genasi are stronger than the Faerun variety (net positive stat adjustments. Elemental resistance. Actually useful SLAs) while being...considered weaker than Humans? Do I get that right?

Of course, PF Humans are stronger than D&D Humans. Because Humans in 3.0/3.5 were totally underpowered and needed a boost.

[Psyren]

All the races needed a boost, that was the point. And humans being the best isn't a bad thing - there is already plenty of incentive not to be human because of how cool or RP-heavy the other races are. If humans are going to be vanilla in an RPG, they might as well be gourmet imo.

[Feint's End]

All the races needed a boost, that was the point. And humans being the best isn't a bad thing - there is already plenty of incentive not to be human because of how cool or RP-heavy the other races are. If humans are going to be vanilla in an RPG, they might as well be gourmet imo.

Meh I disagree. Humans shouldn't be better or worse than other races. Enough players pick human out of flavour or lack of creativity ... They don't need to be one of the best races in the game (probably best for most short of psionics ... where they luckily suck)

On another note. Tiefling and Aasimar are both really bad for +1la and overall a decent +0 la race. The thing to consider is that you always have to compare to human and they are approximately on par even if the have no la (better for some, worse for others).

Then again I'm spoiled from pathfinder where every race has it's own advantages and is one of the best choices for a given build and not "human above everything". Quite frankly 3.5 Races suck in comparison

[Marlowe]

On another note. Tiefling and Aasimar are both really bad for +1la and overall a decent +0 la race. The thing to consider is that you always have to compare to human and they are approximately on par even if the have no la (better for some, worse for others).


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[Feint's End]

Good answer :smallwink: ... I'm not sure how it is relevant to what I said though.

[Psyren]

Meh I disagree. Humans shouldn't be better or worse than other races. Enough players pick human out of flavour or lack of creativity ... They don't need to be one of the best races in the game (probably best for most short of psionics ... where they luckily suck)

But they're not the best inherently - they're the best because feats are so valuable. That's not really their fault, and it fits with their lore and themes.

If your build requires Skill Focus, Half-elves are just as good (and better in many ways) while the other races have advantages too. Even if you do consider humans to still be "best," the gap is now small enough that it can be easily dismissed.

[Feint's End]

But they're not the best inherently - they're the best because feats are so valuable. That's not really their fault, and it fits with their lore and themes.

If your build requires Skill Focus, Half-elves are just as good (and better in many ways) while the other races have advantages too. Even if you do consider humans to still be "best," the gap is now small enough that it can be easily dismissed.

Well if by lore you mean "the best and worst can be found among them" then you are right. But I find the lack of creativity of humans just being the "normal" race quite sad.

In pathfinder things look a bit different I agree. Though favoured class boni helped to make humans even better in many cases and most other races situational. I want humans to be a situational best choice too (it's fine and dandy if they are always a decent choice ... like half elf or half orc)

[Psyren]

I agree that a lot of the FCBs for humans are too good - but that too is a problem with the class design, not the race design.

Sorcerer for instance I would have made +1/3 spell known instead of +1 spell known.

[Feint's End]

I agree that a lot of the FCBs for humans are too good - but that too is a problem with the class design, not the race design.

Sorcerer for instance I would have made +1/3 spell known instead of +1 spell known.

Yeah that would have been more reasonable. Not sure if they wouldn't still be the best race though.

I don't think it's only an issue of class design. Because while yes you do have the value of feats and the necessity of more spells known, they still decided to give humans boni to support exactly those most important part of builds. And I'm fairly sure they designed the classes first and handed out favoured class boni later.

So the issue is not only that most classes have one or two things which are really the best things to increase but also that humans often provide exactly those things.

[Psyren]

Favored class bonuses are still part of class design. For example, if they hadn't come up with an "arcane reservoir" for the arcanist, how would they know that the gnome should recover more points per day in theirs?

The only part that overlaps with race design is the fluff question of "what kind of bonuses in general should this race get?" For humans they decided "more resources" fits with humanity's theme of flexibility - so their FCBs tend towards things like free spells, free feats, free points etc. By contrast, they decided "half-orc = brute" and so half-orc bonuses tend to be things like extra damage, more crits, longer rage etc.

[Feint's End]

Favored class bonuses are still part of class design. For example, if they hadn't come up with an "arcane reservoir" for the arcanist, how would they know that the gnome should recover more points per day in theirs?

The only part that overlaps with race design is the fluff question of "what kind of bonuses in general should this race get?" For humans they decided "more resources" fits with humanity's theme of flexibility - so their FCBs tend towards things like free spells, free feats, free points etc. By contrast, they decided "half-orc = brute" and so half-orc bonuses tend to be things like extra damage, more crits, longer rage etc.

Yes but the human "theme" (if you really want to call it that ... I think they don't actually have one) is basically applicable to every class there is, while the Half-Orc theme is much more limited in use. That's what's bugging me. Sure ... Half Orc and Human might be on par for some martial classes (only considering the AFC that is ... considering the feat Humans likely come ahead here too) but as soon as we move any other direction human will still be decent or even very good while the Half Orc gets meh.

So Humans are actually a good pic for everything ... often better than races who actually specialize in those things. I think this shouldn't be the case.

I'm basically argueing that the issue isn't just in the class design but in the idea that "humans have to be good in everything, because humans are awesome!!!!!"

[Psyren]

I'm basically argueing that the issue isn't just in the class design but in the idea that "humans have to be good in everything, because humans are awesome!!!!!"

I guess I just don't see the problem with humans being awesome. They dominate every D&D setting as well as Golarion for a reason.

[Feint's End]

I guess I just don't see the problem with humans being awesome. They dominate every D&D setting as well as Golarion for a reason.

Well maybe it's just me. I'm tired of most settings being so human centric with them being the most generic. I'd like to see a setting where human really are just one among many .... with their own niches and specialities but not good at everything. Just like every other race.

[Psyren]

It's perhaps more accurate to say they're good at anything - not everything. A human in a given setting can be its most powerful archmage, an athlete that can compete across the planes, a thief/assassin without peer, it's most savvy political leader, its most skilled artisan etc. - but rarely will they be more than one of these, and never all of them at once unless you're dealing with Elmi- excuse me, a Mary Sue-type character :smallwink:

[Feint's End]

Yes I agree. But then the question is if the chance of say any other race becoming best at anything is equally high. Humans can become great at pretty much whatever they choose. As an orc you are limited. You can still become a wizard but you are never gonna be as good as a human wizard (well you can punch them ... which is pretty awesome).

I do however see your point.

Btw did you take a look at my psionic archer build I posted yesterday yet? I'm not sure if anyone has thought of the overall combination yet or if I just built something, that has been discovered before

[Psyren]

I saw but I'm not familiar enough with Soul Archer yet to really add anything.

[Marlowe]

Good answer :smallwink: ... I'm not sure how it is relevant to what I said though.

It referred to three things:
1, You are the first person I have seen on this forum, EVER, to suggest that Aasimar and Tiefling are poor value for their LA, and that I expected there to be some comment.
2, That even if you were somehow proven correct, that there are still races far worse for LA+1. Of which Feytouched is just one obvious one.
3, That I had utterly no interest in involving myself in this tangent. Hence, I left it to Lily Von Teifrogue and Conrad Aasimaladin.
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/252x373q90/537/McGJ29.jpg

[Solaris]

If you're going to make an assertion on these forums, you should be prepared to defend it. It's not like we're a pack of rabid nerds who protest vigorously to anyone on the internet who disagrees with us on anything.
Oh wait, we totally are.

I, too, have never really found aasimar and tiefling to be quite worth their level adjustment. They're not brokenly so that they're utterly unplayable (hello, drow), but they're kinda meh for being +1. The problem is that the lesser planetouched option doesn't take away enough to bring them on par with most LA +0 races (except human and dwarf)... though truth be told, they're not so overwhelming that my grey elven rogue/wizard is noticing the difference in a third-level party wherein he's the only non-aasimar/celadrin character (besides the human fighter, a'course).
The difference will only decrease more as we continue to get higher in level and the racial traits matter less and less.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It referred to three things:
1, You are the first person I have seen on this forum, EVER, to suggest that Aasimar and Tiefling are poor value for their LA, and that I expected there to be some comment.
2, That even if you were somehow proven correct, that there are still races far worse for LA+1. Of which Feytouched is just one obvious one.


1) At +0 they are nice for their stat mods, tiefling makes for a nice int caster and Wis and Cha are useful all over the place. At +1 I could just pick Grey Elf over Tiefling and go easy bake wizard instead. Aasimar's is a little harder to replace, but they were just discussing the Athasian Human in another thread, which gets powers known and floating +2s for the same price (sadly dragon content, but I could just say "Forget this" and pick a normal human for the feat instead).
2) There are more races over costed on LA than under costed or balanced.

[Marlowe]

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/252x373q90/537/MAvxGi.jpg

[Feint's End]

I saw but I'm not familiar enough with Soul Archer yet to really add anything.

Alright. Well if you get to it sometimes I'd appreciate your feedback.

[lytokk]

I have nothing really to add to this discussion, I'm just waiting to see more word bubbles on racial art.

[Marlowe]

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[Marlowe]

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[ZamielVanWeber]

This thread is pure gold. I love you Marlowe.

[Marlowe]

Posting this because I'm tired of stumbling upon the image looking for other things.

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[Marlowe]

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[Waddacku]

Kamille is so much less annoying than Judau.

Also you're honestly the first person I can remember seeing here saying Aasimar and Tieflings aren't weak for LA +1.

[Marlowe]

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/351x373q90/911/u3LCqx.jpg

EDIT: Also. Because its not polite to just ignore people:
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[Waddacku]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/Waddacku/char_7077_zpsff262535.jpg

[Marlowe]

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[atemu1234]

This thread is the best thread.

[Vhaidara]

Can you just rename this thread "Marlowe Captions Planetouched"?

[Marlowe]

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EDIT: The word Lily is looking for is, of course; "Cambion". A Campion is a flower.

Also, we didn't mean to seriously suggest that there's only six Australians who don't have irritating accents.

There must be at least a dozen.