Need advice/help with a difficult player

[Dousedinoil]

Hey all,

I apologize if this isn't the right section to post this as I'm new to the forums. I started playing D&D a few months ago and am playing a Neutral Good cleric. The problem that I'm having is that one of the people in my group is Chaotic Neutral. Our DM has his own compaign that he's made that involves fighting a lot of bandits and assassins. I tried healing our enemies so that we can turn them over to the authorities but it became evident earlier on that one of our party members would kill anyone we came across. Everyone I brought back or stabilized she would murder with her daggers. I let it go after a while but now it's getting worse. We will just ask an innocent person on the streets for information and try to gather information on the assassins whereabouts. Another party member rolled a D20 on diplomacy and as able to get everything we needed out of the guy. However, afterwards the assassin character in our party tried to kill him. I got in her way and said I wouldn't allow it. She still tried to get through me but failed.

She has also tried to kill a harmless kid because he threw a rock at her and has also plotted to try killing another member in the party. She also leaves to party often to go off on her own. When scouting ahead she doesn't come back and tell us what she has seen. Instead she goes in, tries to solo a group by herself and then shows up asking me to heal her with only 1 hp left. I don't feel as my character would even want to heal a murderer even if she is part of the party.

When I talk to her about it she says she's chaotic neutral and just doing what she wants regardless of its good or evil. I tried to make the argument that she's evil for trying to harm innocent people on numerous occasions. The DM has even tried to punish her by almost killing her twice. Is a he playing her character according to her alignment and what are some ways we can get around this issue? I hate taking 3 hours doing something that takes an hour because we waste all our spells on eachother and fighting.

Advice?

[graeylin]

A) talk to the DM and tell them this isn't fun. tell them what you need for it to be fun.
B) talk to the other player, and tell them this isn't fun. tell them what you need for it to be fun.
C) if nothing happens, quit, and find another game.


I could give you tons of advice on how the other player is wrong on alignment, they are playing evil, etc., but it won't matter. You can't change someone's mind, they have to. (or, don't bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig). I'd tell you to not heal them, let them die, be passive aggressive, but... that won't change a thing.

The best you can do is let people know YOUR feelings, and desired outcomes, and then be prepared to do something else when they don't change. You could offer to run your own game, etc., but the first steps and bottom line is that you have to lay out your problem to the others, suggest a solution, and then be prepared to make a hard decision.

[Callin]

Let her die.

[JDL]

In character, tell the murdering player that you won't tolerate wanton violence against innocent people.

If they continue, next time they need healing you accidentally cast Harm instead of Heal.

[Douglas]

Ideally, talk with the player out of game and convince her that this is a problem that needs to stop. If that fails or is not an option, turn her argument around on her - if she's allowed to role play her character's alignment, so are you, and your character wants nothing to do with a murdering psychopath; declare that said psychopath is now evicted from the party due to her behavior.

[Solaris]

Ideally, talk with the player out of game and convince her that this is a problem that needs to stop. If that fails or is not an option, turn her argument around on her - if she's allowed to role play her character's alignment, so are you, and your character wants nothing to do with a murdering psychopath; declare that said psychopath is now evicted from the party due to her behavior.

/thread

Nothing else needs said; tell her to shape up or ship out (and that's straight-up CE, not CN, regardless of what she claims). If she refuses? Well, I know who I'd bet on in a fight between a cleric and a rogue.

[jedipotter]

Well.....


.....before the game even started, even just as a player, you should look for Red Flags. And at the top of the list is different alignments. If your planning on being alignment X and another player wants to be alignment Y, there is always a chance that there will be problems.


But alignments aside, if any player does something during a game you don't like....you don't need to help them just as ''your in the same group''. How about not healing the character? That is a great thing to do.

[Troacctid]

When I talk to her about it she says she's chaotic neutral and just doing what she wants regardless of its good or evil.

That's not how Neutral works on the Good/Evil axis. Neutral with respect to Good and Evil means that you have a healthy distaste for Evil, but aren't actively trying to be Good. If you don't care at all whether what you do is Good or Evil, and you do Evil things, then you are Evil, not Neutral.

[P.F.]

That's not how Neutral works on the Good/Evil axis. Neutral with respect to Good and Evil means that you have a healthy distaste for Evil, but aren't actively trying to be Good. If you don't care at all whether what you do is Good or Evil, and you do Evil things, then you are Evil, not Neutral.

And you're the cleric. If anyone should be able to tell good from evil, it's your character. Withholding healing is one of the most effective ways to coerce other characters. Tell her that you don't heal evil people without a very good reason, not even evil people who think they're chaotic neutral.

[Arbane]

Talk to the player first, then to the GM. If that doesn't work....


Ideally, talk with the player out of game and convince her that this is a problem that needs to stop. If that fails or is not an option, turn her argument around on her - if she's allowed to role play her character's alignment, so are you, and your character wants nothing to do with a murdering psychopath; declare that said psychopath is now evicted from the party due to her behavior.

... This is pretty good advice. (Warning: will cause bad feelings and grudges, no matter how well done.)

[(Un)Inspired]

But alignments aside, if any player does something during a game you don't like....you don't need to help them just as ''your in the same group''. How about not healing the character? That is a great thing to do.

I totally agree. This murderous character needs you help. They keep asking for healing. Tell them that you can't, in good confidence, keep them fit and hale if they're just going to use their good health to murder people.

[Dousedinoil]

Thanks for all the advice guys/gals. I've already talked to the DM about it and he's trying to give her warnings by penalizing her with enemies (IE if she attacks a harmless person, a group of his friends come after her with daggers) but she doesn't seem to care. I've talked to her about it and she just justifies it with "my character does what she wants" and not reading the alignment properly. Like others have suggested, I'm not going to argue with what is evil/neutral. She will just interpret the words her own way. It's a shame the PHB isn't more clear.

The problem with not healing is that she stays at the inn for like a week leaving us a person down. It wastes a lot of time. I think I'll just refuse to heal her and hope she learns her lesson.

[Inevitability]

You are a cleric. That means that you are one of the most versatile classes in the game. Look at your spell list, find everything that can hurt someone, and prepare it.

Next time Chaotic Stupid attacks someone, hold a short speech on how CS's actions have been irrefutable proof she is an evil psychopath who is too dangerous to travel with, then open fire. You don't have to kill her per sé, you can just knock her out and stuff her in the biggest prison you've ever seen.

Alternatively, depending on your level you could build your own prison (abandoned dungeons work fine), add a Create Food and Water trap, and be done. Come to check on CS from time to time, hit her with a Detect Good spell, and only set her free when she's come to understand her acts were evil and has redeemed herself.

[Arbane]

Thanks for all the advice guys/gals. I've already talked to the DM about it and he's trying to give her warnings by penalizing her with enemies (IE if she attacks a harmless person, a group of his friends come after her with daggers) but she doesn't seem to care.

I'm tempted to start a betting pool on how long it'll take for Chaotic Dumbass to get you all killed. Good luck with the game, though. Five sessions, tops.

[Douglas]

The problem with not healing is that she stays at the inn for like a week leaving us a person down. It wastes a lot of time. I think I'll just refuse to heal her and hope she learns her lesson.
The problem there is that you're still implicitly or explicitly accepting that her character is part of the party. For this sort of thing to work, you will probably have to point blank issue an ultimatum - "This character is no longer in the party. Either leave the game or make a new character, we're not adventuring with her any more. And this time, pick a personality that can actually fit the party." Anything short of that, she can and likely will somehow work around while making the party suffer somehow, because she appears to not care about in game consequences and only eviction from the party carries an out of game consequence. Just make sure to discuss it with the rest of the party beforehand so you can be sure they'll back you up.

Tossing the character in a dungeon with a righteous speech can be a good in character way to deliver such an ultimatum, but follow it up with the out of character one.

[jordan.k93]

Get yourself a PDF or physical copy of the "Book of Vile Darkness" which has clear cut examples of what is good, and what is evil, use this to rules lawyer that she is, indeed, evil.

Now we have established that she is Evil Aligned, memorise a Detect Evil spell, and next time she shows up with 1HP or tries to slay an innocent, kill her ass or demand that she change her ways.

Hey, if she's started plotting party member assassinations, then it's time to take of the gloves.

That's how to do it in game anyway, out of game, talk to DM, he shouldn't also be pulling punches coz she's deciding to try and solo the group's encounters, he's enabling this player's douchbaggery.

[LentilNinja]

As its been stated, you're the party healer. You're good aligned and you've been traveling with a psycho whos harming innocent people. The moment she needs healing, just kill her with an inflict spell. This player's going "my character does what she wants" so flip the argument on her: "My character does whats right".

Roleplaying is a two way street, and D&D is a multiplayer game.

[hifidelity2]

As a DM (and as you say you have spoken to the DM so maybe suggest it) I would (after warnings) move her alignment from CN to CE. That might make the rest of the party turn away from them

[RoboEmperor]

General consensus is, any evil act makes the person evil. Neutral people don't do good, but don't do evil either. Some rare exceptions are allowed but that character is doing evil everyday.

1st, ask the DM to change her alignment to chaotic evil.
2nd, tell the DM your party does not associate with evil, and the character in question must start repenting or otherwise face the wrath of the party.

In real life, tell the player you have a problem with the way he is playing his character.

If DM still allows, then obviously the DM enjoys having an evil party member.

There is a lot of stuff you an do to just get the character in question killed, incarcerated, or otherwise incapable of adventuring, but i don't think this is the solution you're looking for.

If everyone in the group agrees with you, talk to the person, otherwise it's time to split ways.

[Darrin]

The teeth-gnashing over alignments is a fig leaf. The problem here is one player has decided that playing a psychotic murderhobo is "Fun", and is just using the alignment rules as an excuse. It's probably likely that this player would think that this is the default mode of play regardless of the rules, setting, theme, etc. And, to be fair, this is not the wrong way to play if the rest of the group is into it and having just as much fun murderhoboing each other. However, it sounds like the rest of the group wants a "heroic" game where the PCs actually act like heroes sometimes. So the key question here is whether the problem player is capable of playing anything other than a murderhobo... and while the odds are probably against it, we'll give this player the benefit of the doubt.

The DM or you (backed by the DM) have to have an OOC (out-of-character) conversation immediately with the whole group before the next session starts and lay this out explicitly:

"This campaign is supposed to be heroic and the PCs are supposed to be good or at least leaning that way. It's assumed that every player will choose to create characters that support each other and help each other, putting the survival of the party before any personal goals. This is not subject to negotiation. If you want to play at this table, you have to decide right now that you can play a character that fits in with this group. If you can, then we will retire your current character immediately, and you can make a new character at the same level. If you can't, then you can't play at this table."

[P.F.]

It's a shame the PHB isn't more clear.

No. It's perfectly, unambiguously, entirely clear:


Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. --PHB p104

Sound familiar?


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. --Ibid

A character who does whatever she wants, as long as it's not evil, is neutral. A character who does whatever they want evil or otherwise is evil. Quite explicitly evil. It's not even remotely debatable. Don't be drawn into it. You're the cleric, she's the deranged psychopath. Play your character righteously!


I think I'll just refuse to heal her and hope she learns her lesson.

Probably a good start, let us know how it works out.

[Dousedinoil]

The problem is that the PC wants her to be an assassin and it requires an evil alignment. Are their other prestige classes that are similar to assassin that aren't evil?

I'm going to see if the DM will force her to be lawful evil so that we can at least try and make everyone happy. We can try that whole "my enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. However if she keeps killing innocent people and doesn't respect my PC's wishes she won't be healed. In fact, my character would probably get her hands dirty to rid the world of a murderous psychopath.

[Dousedinoil]

No. It's perfectly, unambiguously, entirely clear:



Sound familiar?



A character who does whatever she wants, as long as it's not evil, is neutral. A character who does whatever they want evil or otherwise is evil. Quite explicitly evil. It's not even remotely debatable. Don't be drawn into it. You're the cleric, she's the deranged psychopath. Play your character righteously!



Probably a good start, let us know how it works out.

Awesome! Thanks again for all the help. I think their are a lot of good ideas here.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The problem is that the PC wants her to be an assassin and it requires an evil alignment. Are their other prestige classes that are similar to assassin that aren't evil?

I'm going to see if the DM will force her to be lawful evil so that we can at least try and make everyone happy. We can try that whole "my enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. However if she keeps killing innocent people and doesn't respect my PC's wishes she won't be healed. In fact, my character would probably get her hands dirty to rid the world of a murderous psychopath.

I would communicate those intentions to the DM so they can be prepared to arbitrate the inevitable argument this will likely lead to.

[Darrin]

The problem is that the PC wants her to be an assassin and it requires an evil alignment. Are their other prestige classes that are similar to assassin that aren't evil?


Yes. It's called the Avenger, and WotC posted it on their website:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Requires a non-chaotic alignment (although I have doubts the player can pull that off).

Just be aware... it sounds like you have an OOC problem, so attempts to handle it IC are very likely to fail.

[prufock]

"This campaign is supposed to be heroic and the PCs are supposed to be good or at least leaning that way. It's assumed that every player will choose to create characters that support each other and help each other, putting the survival of the party before any personal goals. This is not subject to negotiation. If you want to play at this table, you have to decide right now that you can play a character that fits in with this group. If you can, then we will retire your current character immediately, and you can make a new character at the same level. If you can't, then you can't play at this table."
Something like this (though worded as less of an ultimatum) should be clarified before a game even starts. I usually describe a campaign as "This is a high-heroism, fight-the-evil campaign. All characters must be good or neutral leaning toward good" or "This is an evil campaign, but I expect you to work together to fulfill your missions" or "This is a shades of grey campaign. You are mercenaries for hire, and there are no hard-and-fast alignment boundaries" or "We're playing Paranoia!"

Other people have given good advice, both in game and out, but remember that there will likely be butthurt when it comes to retribution. I would start with your character refusing her healing when she does something evil or stupid. Lectures are a cleric favourite. Your character should also pray to your god (the DM) for guidance. Draw a metaphorical line (like killing a child, or whatever is in fitting with your character); if she crosses it, pull the "big speech followed by a swift smiting" act.

[Aethenol]

The problem is that the PC wants her to be an assassin and it requires an evil alignment. Are their other prestige classes that are similar to assassin that aren't evil?

After lurking for years, I'll speak up since no-one has answered this specific question (at least, when I started typing, anyway.)

Slayer of Domiel from the Book of Exalted Deeds, [pg 73-75] is an option. I mention it first because it is designed specifically for the "I want to be a good assassin" types. Of course, the PC will need to change their behavior SIGNIFICANTLY for an alignment shift all the way to GOOD. I am sure that others will leap in regarding what is wrong with this class, and I agree. But, it fits your needs.

Nightsong Enforcer from Complete Adventurer [pg 60-62] lacks the spellcasting of the Assassin & Slayer, but it is built around sneak attacking in co-ordination with others. This class even gives some minor static buffs to other party members. Lower power than Slayer, but it does get Improved Evasion eventually.



I'm going to see if the DM will force her to be lawful evil so that we can at least try and make everyone happy. We can try that whole "my enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. However if she keeps killing innocent people and doesn't respect my PC's wishes she won't be healed. In fact, my character would probably get her hands dirty to rid the world of a murderous psychopath..

As others have said, THIS. Your PC should realize that this person is a threat to the innocent, and remove it. The fact is, the player is a jerk, and should get the boot. He/she/it does not care how their actions are making the game NOT FUN for you and the other party members, and perhaps the GM. What I have suggested is just a band-aid over a sucking chest wound. I've played with players like this before; they usually leave once the party starts killing their characters for evil actions. Occasionally they straighten out and become valuable contributors to the game, both in- and and out-of-character. So talk it over with the other players and the GM, and then act when you agree it is for the better enjoyment of all (sans the troublemaker, anyway). Maybe you'll get lucky?

[atemu1234]

Sounds like this player needs the word neutral explained to them. You can't ignore the moral ramifications of your actions; that's sociopathy, IE closer to neutral evil than chaotic neutral. Anyway, you should tell them to stop before they get you killed, because the player controls the character. They can change their character's behavior and even its alignment, and they don't need to act like jerks to roleplay CN anyway.

[LoyalPaladin]

Like others have suggested, I'm not going to argue with what is evil/neutral. She will just interpret the words her own way. It's a shame the PHB isn't more clear.
Maybe you should have her visit this website (http://www.easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html). I know my DM had us all read up on our alignment before playing and easy damus is pretty comprehensive.

[Petrocorus]

The problem is that the PC wants her to be an assassin and it requires an evil alignment. Are their other prestige classes that are similar to assassin that aren't evil?


In addition of the other already good proposals, i'll add Ebonmar Infiltrator from Cityscape, which doesn't have an alignment restriction and Fatemaker from PlH which requires non-lawful, both quite close to the assassin.

She can also build a pseudo-assassin with Wizard / Rogue / PrC. What are her classes by now?

[Scipio_77]

Hey all,

I apologize if this isn't the right section to post this as I'm new to the forums. I started playing D&D a few months ago and am playing a Neutral Good cleric. The problem that I'm having is that one of the people in my group is Chaotic Neutral. Our DM has his own compaign that he's made that involves fighting a lot of bandits and assassins. I tried healing our enemies so that we can turn them over to the authorities but it became evident earlier on that one of our party members would kill anyone we came across. Everyone I brought back or stabilized she would murder with her daggers. I let it go after a while but now it's getting worse. We will just ask an innocent person on the streets for information and try to gather information on the assassins whereabouts. Another party member rolled a D20 on diplomacy and as able to get everything we needed out of the guy. However, afterwards the assassin character in our party tried to kill him. I got in her way and said I wouldn't allow it. She still tried to get through me but failed.

She has also tried to kill a harmless kid because he threw a rock at her and has also plotted to try killing another member in the party. She also leaves to party often to go off on her own. When scouting ahead she doesn't come back and tell us what she has seen. Instead she goes in, tries to solo a group by herself and then shows up asking me to heal her with only 1 hp left. I don't feel as my character would even want to heal a murderer even if she is part of the party.

When I talk to her about it she says she's chaotic neutral and just doing what she wants regardless of its good or evil. I tried to make the argument that she's evil for trying to harm innocent people on numerous occasions. The DM has even tried to punish her by almost killing her twice. Is a he playing her character according to her alignment and what are some ways we can get around this issue? I hate taking 3 hours doing something that takes an hour because we waste all our spells on eachother and fighting.

Advice?

RP it.

Pray to your deity. Kill the assassin. Bury the corpse. Say solemn prayers.

Here is a fitting quote from one of our sessions:
Cleric: We raise the fighter.
Wizard: Yes.
Cleric: and the ranger?
Wizard: Yes.
Cleric: How about the gnome?
Wizard: We bury the gnome.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I think an important question to ask is: Does the player want to explicitly have the Assassin CLASS, or are they trying to be AN Assassin?

The former is mechanical benefits, and those can be gained in other ways than specifically being an evil murderhobo (ahh, terminology, so apt) who doesn't see themselves OOC as EVIL as they are IC.

The latter? They've played too much Assassin's Creed, ignoring the plot, and just trying to stab everyone/thing in sight. That's not being a cool, sly, guile-ful Assassin with mystique, that's being a sloppy, amateur, budding serial killer.

Big difference.

[graeylin]

So you have a cold blooded, chaotic, (evil), random killer loose?

Time for Dexter as an NPC to become part of the world, and decide this person has done their last murder.

[Sith_Happens]

The problem with not healing is that she stays at the inn for like a week leaving us a person down. It wastes a lot of time. I think I'll just refuse to heal her and hope she learns her lesson.

It only wastes anyone's time but hers if you actually sit and wait for her to finish her bed rest. The whole point of not healing her is that eventually she's stuck in bed while the rest of you do your adventuring.

[atemu1234]

So you have a cold blooded, chaotic, (evil), random killer loose?

Time for Dexter as an NPC to become part of the world, and decide this person has done their last murder.

Has anyone around here seen stats for Dexter? I remember I saw a 3rd-party vestige that reminded me of him, once, but apart from that...

[ZamielVanWeber]

As its been stated, you're the party healer. You're good aligned and you've been traveling with a psycho whos harming innocent people. The moment she needs healing, just kill her with an inflict spell. This player's going "my character does what she wants" so flip the argument on her: "My character does whats right".

Roleplaying is a two way street, and D&D is a multiplayer game.

This was my first thought personally. You are not that character's baby sitter. Try resolving it OOC. See if the DM will inform her that her alignment is now CE (the DM has the right to change the alignment of players as play dictates). If so you can cast detect evil next time she nearly gets killed on a scouting mission and end the threat right then and there.

[Susano-wo]

It only wastes anyone's time but hers if you actually sit and wait for her to finish her bed rest. The whole point of not healing her is that eventually she's stuck in bed while the rest of you do your adventuring.

And, unless the adventure hooks are keeping them stationary, they have left town. "Ok, you have fun staying at the Inn. we're just gonna make a quick stop to the local constabulary and be on our way. have a nice life[in prison.]"

Also, yeah the inflict instead of heal on the spellcraftless character is a good solution. [or, you know, just throw down. Hold person works great on low will characters...like Rogues :smallbiggrin:, and SA needs special circumstances/allies to function.]

But seriously, this an archetypal example of disruptive behavior being justified by hiding behind alignment and "what my character would do." Though if its really such a sandbox campaign that this is ok, then your retaliation should be no problemo. :smallamused:

[Though I've gotta say: the detect evil thing is irrelevant. Pinging evil does not make it ok to kill someone, and not pinging evil does not make it wrong to kill someone.]

[ben-zayb]

Maybe this player thought :belkar: is a viable PC concept for all tables, which is obviously not the case in your table. Instead of solving this problem IC, I second/third/nth that this be resolved by talking to the player OOC.

[Sith_Happens]

One important thing, if you do decide to respond to the next "It's what my character would do" with a "Well my character has just about had it with yours so keep that in mind" then I strongly recommend no longer sleeping from that point forward (easily achievable by casting Lesser Restoration or Ray of Resurgence on yourself each morning). This is exactly the type of player likely to respond to the slightest threat or provocation from a teammate with a midnight stabbing, and you obviously don't want to be open for that. Make sure only the DM knows about your new insomniac habits, though, that way you can still pretend to sleep each night and gank your would-be murderer.:smallamused:

[(Un)Inspired]

One important thing, if you do decide to respond to the next "It's what my character would do" with a "Well my character has just about had it with yours so keep that in mind" then I strongly recommend no longer sleeping from that point forward (easily achievable by casting Lesser Restoration or Ray of Resurgence on yourself each morning). This is exactly the type of player likely to respond to the slightest threat or provocation from a teammate with a midnight stabbing, and you obviously don't want to be open for that. Make sure only the DM knows about your new insomniac habits, though, that way you can still pretend to sleep each night and gank your would-be murderer.:smallamused:

Just make sure that when you jump out of hiding to hit him on the back of the head while he is stabbing the pillows and basketball you hid under you blanket as subterfuge you yell, "Ah Ha!"

[Susano-wo]

One important thing, if you do decide to respond to the next "It's what my character would do" with a "Well my character has just about had it with yours so keep that in mind" then I strongly recommend no longer sleeping from that point forward (easily achievable by casting Lesser Restoration or Ray of Resurgence on yourself each morning). This is exactly the type of player likely to respond to the slightest threat or provocation from a teammate with a midnight stabbing, and you obviously don't want to be open for that. Make sure only the DM knows about your new insomniac habits, though, that way you can still pretend to sleep each night and gank your would-be murderer.:smallamused:

I wouldn't even give Psycho Sally that much warning[barring character scruples]. I would respect that they can be pretty deadly to me if they surprise me and just throw down right then and there. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Has anyone around here seen stats for Dexter? I remember I saw a 3rd-party vestige that reminded me of him, once, but apart from that...

Race is obviously human. Build... At least a decent number of skill points, so no fighter... Maybe rogue with fighter bonus feats?

Alignment is almost definitely LE. He may only try to kill Evil people, but he doesn't feel remorse over killing innocents and pretty much needs to kill.

[StoneCipher]

Play your character and damn the consequences. Just give an OOC warning that you may bite if provoked.

I see this as an in character issue, and if your character finds that this person has committed too many murders you should be able to issue a form of punishment if they have not been punished. If you are a good cleric and are one that stops evil in its tracks, feel free to do so.

I remember one time I played a (very dumb and gullible) CG dungeon crashing fighter and one of the party members decided to play a joke with my character and pretend he was a demon. They succeeded in convincing my fighter that they were in fact a demon and then my fighter proceeded to tackle them to the ground and slam their head against the ground until dead.

In game actions have in game consequences.

[LoyalPaladin]

In game actions have in game consequences.
This. I've killed our NE Bard twice now. I'm a Paladin, which is close enough to a Cleric. Killing innocents is a no fly zone. She'll get the idea when she is sitting a couple levels below you.

[Dousedinoil]

Hey all,

We don't play again until Monday so I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Her character is already aware that Im against killing innocent people and she could easily vanish/run if confronted with full health. I'm going to wait until she is low on health and pretend to go in to heal her but sink my sword right through her.

Even though my character is against killing, a few drinks and prayers will help ease the pain.

If she manages to escape somehow, I'll wait in the shadows of my bedroom for her to show herself. Any spells I can use to make it so she can't run? Or traps I can setup?

I'm still pretty new so I can't afford to spend the gold on anything too crazy.

[LoyalPaladin]

Any spells I can use to make it so she can't run? Or traps I can setup?
You could always cast daylight on her clothes? No hiding when you are casting 60ft of light everywhere.

[StoneCipher]

Not saying it would necessarily be against your character's roleplay, but if you're a good cleric and kicking someone while they're down by stabbing them instead of healing them, you're going down the same path as them. While they may be a murderous monster, they at least trust you to not kill them while their back is turned. Take the high road and confront them in the open is my advice. Whether or not they can escape is not the issue. The issue is letting them know you won't let them get away with their murders anymore.

They will have to basically stop or leave the party. Because they'd have not many options other than being imprisoned, beaten, or otherwise punished. They could kill you in your sleep, but again in character actions have in character consequences. You would earn your death at their hands if they decide to do so, but they would likely anger the rest of the party by doing so, and they would not be able to travel with them anymore.

[Scipio_77]

Hey all,

We don't play again until Monday so I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Her character is already aware that Im against killing innocent people and she could easily vanish/run if confronted with full health. I'm going to wait until she is low on health and pretend to go in to heal her but sink my sword right through her.

Even though my character is against killing, a few drinks and prayers will help ease the pain.

If she manages to escape somehow, I'll wait in the shadows of my bedroom for her to show herself. Any spells I can use to make it so she can't run? Or traps I can setup?

I'm still pretty new so I can't afford to spend the gold on anything too crazy.

Just RP some anguish, gnashing of teeth and prayers for forgiveness.

I wouldn't go for sword, I'd go for a spell so you know you would do enough damage. The DM should allow you a heal check to see how wounded the assassin is, if she is very wounded then just close in for a heal then use a prepared inflict spell instead.

If the group is completely unaccustomed to in-group slaying there might be reactions. In my group we don't really differentiate much between PCs and NPCs (you'd slay a PC for the same reasons and in the same manners you slay an NPC), though long bonds and former friendships might play a part.

[Petrocorus]

Hey all,

We don't play again until Monday so I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Her character is already aware that Im against killing innocent people and she could easily vanish/run if confronted with full health. I'm going to wait until she is low on health and pretend to go in to heal her but sink my sword right through her.

Is your character LG, NG, or CG?

[LoyalPaladin]

Not saying it would necessarily be against your character's roleplay, but if you're a good cleric and kicking someone while they're down by stabbing them instead of healing them, you're going down the same path as them.
This is a valid point I didn't think of. Do you have the "Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm)" spell? Then it could just trigger when they murder an innocent.

[StoneCipher]

This is a valid point I didn't think of. Do you have the "Mark of Justice" spell? Then it could just trigger when they murder an innocent.

Now that is a splendid idea.

[Scipio_77]

Is your character LG, NG, or CG?

I don't think is very relevant. If her/his deity has allowed him to heal a child-killing assassin without repercussions, it probably won't mind her/him killing the assassin.

[Dousedinoil]

This is a valid point I didn't think of. Do you have the "Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm)" spell? Then it could just trigger when they murder an innocent.

I'm not level 5 yet.

[Dousedinoil]

Is your character LG, NG, or CG?

NG. I've already tried to "throw down the gaunlet" by standing between her and the innocent person she tried to kill. I only did not lethal damage but she ended up fleeing.

[Dousedinoil]

Not saying it would necessarily be against your character's roleplay, but if you're a good cleric and kicking someone while they're down by stabbing them instead of healing them, you're going down the same path as them. While they may be a murderous monster, they at least trust you to not kill them while their back is turned. Take the high road and confront them in the open is my advice. Whether or not they can escape is not the issue. The issue is letting them know you won't let them get away with their murders anymore.

They will have to basically stop or leave the party. Because they'd have not many options other than being imprisoned, beaten, or otherwise punished. They could kill you in your sleep, but again in character actions have in character consequences. You would earn your death at their hands if they decide to do so, but they would likely anger the rest of the party by doing so, and they would not be able to travel with them anymore.

This is why I haven't killed her. I don't want to kill anyone but I've given her too many chances at redemption already. I don't see a way in which I can just hand her over to the authorities.

[LoyalPaladin]

Now that is a splendid idea.
I am a large fan of the -6 to Constitution selection. An assassin gets a d6 for health right? That should hurt sufficiently.


I'm not level 5 yet.
What level are you?

[Dousedinoil]

I am a large fan of the -6 to Constitution selection. An assassin gets a d6 for health right? That should hurt sufficiently.


What level are you?

I'm only level 3 :(

[Dousedinoil]

Just RP some anguish, gnashing of teeth and prayers for forgiveness.

I wouldn't go for sword, I'd go for a spell so you know you would do enough damage. The DM should allow you a heal check to see how wounded the assassin is, if she is very wounded then just close in for a heal then use a prepared inflict spell instead.

If the group is completely unaccustomed to in-group slaying there might be reactions. In my group we don't really differentiate much between PCs and NPCs (you'd slay a PC for the same reasons and in the same manners you slay an NPC), though long bonds and former friendships might play a part.

Can a NG servant of pelor use a necromancy spell like inflict moderate wounds? It seems kind of out of character.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm only level 3 :(
Try to get a beatstick to hold them down and then manacle them? You could pray to Pelor (Your DM) to place the Mark of Justice for you haha. Rules mean nothing before a god!

[Petrocorus]

NG. I've already tried to "throw down the gaunlet" by standing between her and the innocent person she tried to kill. I only did not lethal damage but she ended up fleeing.

According to me, this is the right way to do it. But next time, do lethal damage. And find a way to prevent her fleeing. You're probably not the only player she's annoyed.

[Douglas]

I'm only level 3 :(
That's high enough to cast Hold Person, which opens up a lot of options if it works.

Can a NG servant of pelor use a necromancy spell like inflict moderate wounds? It seems kind of out of character.
As a Good cleric of a Good deity, you are not able to cast spells that have the [evil] descriptor. The inflict spells, despite their association with evil thanks to the spontaneous casting class feature, do not have that descriptor, so they are available to you.

Try to get a beatstick to hold them down and then manacle them? You could pray to Pelor (Your DM) to place the Mark of Justice for you haha. Rules mean nothing before a god!
Hold Person, manacles, tie up securely with rope, deliver to authorities? Is the problem that there aren't any appropriate authorities available, or that you can't figure out how to deliver her to them?

[LoyalPaladin]

Hold Person, manacles, tie up securely with rope, deliver to authorities? Is the problem that there aren't any appropriate authorities available, or that you can't figure out how to deliver her to them?
I'd forgotten all about Hold Person! This would be great for all your friend imprisoning needs!

[Petrocorus]

Hold Person, manacles, tie up securely with rope, deliver to authorities? Is the problem that there aren't any appropriate authorities available, or that you can't figure out how to deliver her to them?

Totally concur. Next time she do something bad/evil, Hold Person her and beat the blood out of her. Literally. Warn her OOC beforehand, that your character won't put up with her #*%! any longer, and when she do it, unleash the Cleric. You can talk to other PC to have them help you. If the whole party is against her, she might understand she has really gone too far.

[Inevitability]

If you are level 3, that means you can cast Summon Monster II. 1d3 celestial badgers can be a pain in the butt if all three are currently mauling you. A raging badger hitting with all its attacks deals around 8 damage per round, on average.

Two swarms of badgers should soften up the wannabe assassin, as well as cut off any possible escape routes. Especially if you manage to get a Hold Person off as well.

And remember, you don't have to fight alone. Hire a few thugs to accompany you on your next journey 'in order to have some extra muscle'. The moment your target is vulnerable, shout: 'I'll pay you double if you kill her now!' and blast her.

Oh, and what domains do you have?

[Douglas]

I would strongly encourage trying to find a solution that does not involve actually killing her character, as that could be perceived as actually validating her play style by adopting it yourself. That you're killing for a much more serious reason than she does would likely be ignored or dismissed, if she even notices at all, in favor of some kind of "so violence is ok if you do it?" retort. Finding an appropriate judicial system to take her off your hands neatly disarms that point while driving home that this is a direct consequence to her own behavior.

[Dousedinoil]

I would strongly encourage trying to find a solution that does not involve actually killing her character, as that could be perceived as actually validating her play style by adopting it yourself. That you're killing for a much more serious reason than she does would likely be ignored or dismissed, if she even notices at all, in favor of some kind of "so violence is ok if you do it?" retort. Finding an appropriate judicial system to take her off your hands neatly disarms that point while driving home that this is a direct consequence to her own behavior.

I'm actually okay will killing Evil creatures and players. My PC won't stand around as innocent people are being murdered. I see a big difference between the two. I'm not going to murder her in her sleep or poison her but I will bash her head in if she attacks another innocent person.

I don't think that handing her into the authorities will do a whole lot. It's clear that they authorities only care about "what's within their walls" and so far she's only attempted murder in their eyes.

[LoyalPaladin]

I don't think that handing her into the authorities will do a whole lot. It's clear that they authorities only care about "what's within their walls" and so far she's only attempted murder in their eyes.
Worst. Authorities. Ever. Send a letter to your local Pelor temple and ask for Paladins? Tell them you're sticking to an evil assassin that is blood thirsty? Pelor's Paladins wont find that funny at all.

[Dousedinoil]

If you are level 3, that means you can cast Summon Monster II. 1d3 celestial badgers can be a pain in the butt if all three are currently mauling you. A raging badger hitting with all its attacks deals around 8 damage per round, on average.

Two swarms of badgers should soften up the wannabe assassin, as well as cut off any possible escape routes. Especially if you manage to get a Hold Person off as well.

And remember, you don't have to fight alone. Hire a few thugs to accompany you on your next journey 'in order to have some extra muscle'. The moment your target is vulnerable, shout: 'I'll pay you double if you kill her now!' and blast her.

Oh, and what domains do you have?

I have sun and planning. Those Badgers sound incredibly deadly.

[Dousedinoil]

Worst. Authorities. Ever. Send a letter to your local Pelor temple and ask for Paladins? Tell them you're sticking to an evil assassin that is blood thirsty? Pelor's Paladins wont find that funny at all.

I might give this a try first. I'll have then follow us and catch her in the act. That way she is held responsible for her actions and I don't have to kill her. If this doesn't work, I'll just stop healing her so she's stuck in an inn all day.

If that fails, I release the raging badgers.

[Inevitability]

Do you have divine metamagic? Extending both badger summonings may not make much of a difference, but it may help.

[lytokk]

I'm going to say to clear any instances of pvp with the DM. Let the DM know what you would like to do before you consider doing it. There may be some rules regarding PVP that you aren't aware of, like for instance it not being allowed. If the DM is behind your plan, it works out better for you.

[LoyalPaladin]

I might give this a try first. I'll have then follow us and catch her in the act. That way she is held responsible for her actions and I don't have to kill her. If this doesn't work, I'll just stop healing her so she's stuck in an inn all day.

If that fails, I release the raging badgers.
Make sure you send the letter in private. Not even OOC. Just talk to your DM and tell him you plan on doing that. Then in 1d4 days Palys show up and take care of it. But I like your order.

1. Contact superiors.
2. Refuse to aid her wicked ways.
3. Badgers. Badgers. Badgers. Badgers.

[Sith_Happens]

Not saying it would necessarily be against your character's roleplay, but if you're a good cleric and kicking someone while they're down by stabbing them instead of healing them, you're going down the same path as them. While they may be a murderous monster, they at least trust you to not kill them while their back is turned. Take the high road and confront them in the open is my advice.

Good characters are under no obligation to fight fair, especially not against Evil characters that they know will take advantage of any unnecessary restraint.


Hold Person, manacles, tie up securely with rope, deliver to authorities? Is the problem that there aren't any appropriate authorities available, or that you can't figure out how to deliver her to them?

If you do this then make sure you're in or near one of the towns she attempted murder in. Find the NPC whose life you saved from her and have them testify.

If, on the other hand, you're worried about your ability to make a case for her imprisonment, a coup de gras is considered the standard followup to Hold Person anyways.

[StoneCipher]

Good characters are under no obligation to fight fair, especially not against Evil characters that they know will take advantage of any unnecessary restraint.

No, but its a little dubious to be deceitful given a previous record of cooperation with the person. Treachery is one of those things that gets you on a lot of naughty lists. It would be different if the OP was getting increasingly hostile after every murder and showed signs of getting near execution level pissed.

But then again, I only know what I'm told. That could be in fact the case. I just feel that good characters should avoid backstabbing people. (Not literally, of course.)

[Scipio_77]

No, but its a little dubious to be deceitful given a previous record of cooperation with the person. Treachery is one of those things that gets you on a lot of naughty lists. It would be different if the OP was getting increasingly hostile after every murder and showed signs of getting near execution level pissed.

But then again, I only know what I'm told. That could be in fact the case. I just feel that good characters should avoid backstabbing people. (Not literally, of course.)

Well, if the character falls that is just an interesting character progression. Perhaps the character grows more neutral and converts to a more violent religion, perhaps the player has to undergo an atonement spell etc etc.

Also in a typical fantasy setting, good PCs kill and maim on a regular basis. People often have a tendency to apply "ingame alignment" towards NPCs and "real world morals" towards PCs, which makes them far more forgiving than they should be. And yes, going straight for the kill on the assassin is harsh... but that is what players with do vs most enemy rogue-like NPCs, even those who had served them in the past... because that's just a type of enemy you don't want to have skulking in the shadows (figuratively and literally).

[Magesmiley]

If this doesn't work, I'll just stop healing her so she's stuck in an inn all day.

Make sure that the rest of the party is on-board with going off and adventuring without her rather than waiting for her to heal naturally. It only takes sitting one or two adventures out as a spectator before most people get the message.

[StoneCipher]

True enough, but that's why I mentioned it being up to how he plays his character. I am just making suggestions on how to maintain a good karma. Besides, unless it was hashed out OOC, that kind of abrupt execution would likely cause a flipped table.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming that this is an in character problem and not an out of character one; next time it's your turn on watch, coup-de-grace the little psycho in her sleep. No, it's not a good thing to do. Yes, it's an act of betrayal and an evil act in its own right. That doesn't matter.

Such behavior is utterly unacceptable. That character is -way- past the point they should've been shifted to chaotic evil. Time for an unlawful but wholly warranted execution. Roleplay the anguish and remorse that it had to come to this if you like but this nut-bar is well past the point of no return if she's willing to fight you to kill an innocent. If the player wants to be an assassin she needs to play a smarter type of evil.

[Tohsaka Rin]

As Roy once said; "I think I'm willing to take the alignment hit on this one."

What's more evil: Killing a remorseless maniac, or sparing them, and letting them continue on hurting and murdering innocent people?

[CSeiberlin]

I might give this a try first. I'll have then follow us and catch her in the act. That way she is held responsible for her actions and I don't have to kill her. If this doesn't work, I'll just stop healing her so she's stuck in an inn all day.

If that fails, I release the raging badgers.

Pseudo-medieval fantasy world anyway. Players tend to think in modern terms of justice and legal codes when throughout most human history Justice and Law are what the local Lord and Religious Authority said it was. You are playing a cleric (presumably of a clergy with some power)... if you feel her crimes (that you witnessed) can't be ignored, go ahead and report her to your hierarchy. Your testimony has some weight (and in a magical world she'll also detect as Evil.... her profession of innocence won't be worth a warm bucket of spit against your cleric's accusations). Don't think in modern terms presumption of innocence....that is a wonderful modern innovation and it is a total anachronism for standard medieval fantasy. The only evidence you need is your testimony (which in some pre-modern courts was the only evidence allowed...obviously talk to your DM beforehand to make sure he's on the same page but once you get him thinking about who runs the local law and how it functions he's more likely to see it as a very arbitrary system).

Your cleric has a built in level of authority most other classes cannot tap into. Use it if you have to, but I would strongly advise you against waiting until the assassin is weak and then killing her. For one, it's evil.... you are playing false to a comrade you've accepted into your company. It's a dangerous world, your posse (or some archetype of the murdering hobo bands most adventuring groups fall into) has to be able to trust one another. Waiting for someone to get into a tight spot before you betray them is against basic good aligned murder hobo morality. If you no longer trust one of your comrades to further your group's ends and cannot trust them to watch your back, it's time you give them their cut of the current company profits and send them on their way (to npc-dom). Just make sure the rest of the company is in agreement before you give the "Your services are no longer required. Good day." speech. Honestly, because the character is playing in a very unreliable independent way (not a team player) you have little reason to keep her on anyway. As a rule of thumb, don't tolerate anything from a pc that you wouldn't tolerate from an npc if they pulled the same crap (especially if they are not your friend).

Secondly, most groups don't handle pvp well. D&D is a cooperative game and the fun is doing adventures and building a story. Some groups can handle inter-party conflict and enjoy it... it doesn't sound like you do. Anyway killing other PCs takes away from that solid core of game time that could be better spend more productively....like adventuring. The combat will take at least 15 minutes (even in a total gankfest) and possibly longer (more likely at higher levels). Then, assuming the player doesn't storm off in a huff, a new pc will be made and introduced to the party....killing more precious table time when you could be advancing the actual adventure. And then there is the all too common problem with the replacement pc just becoming a vehicle for revenge....creating a cycle of pvp that tends to really detract from getting anything substantive done until it burns itself out.

Finally the best way to handle this is probably the 'talk to the DM and player about the situation' route. Let the player know their actions are leading you down a certain road (that your cleric is getting to or at the point they can no longer tolerate the evil acts) and let the DM know that it's a bit doubleplus unfun. Try to find a way that things can be channeled. Meaning it should be clear to the player that if the other pcs have no motivation to keep the company of someone that undercuts the group's goals and is continually pushing buttons there is no reason for the group to tolerate her pc's presence (and a new pc will be required). Murder hobo ethics are that you never steal, cheat, or murder your comrades....no matter your alignment (unless the payoff\benefit is so great you are leaving the party anyway). Evil aligned PCs can be tolerated (use Belkar as a template if nothing else) if they help further a group's goals, but the understanding is the moment they become more a hindrance than a help they'll either become an npc or worm food.

Anyway, my 2 cp (rehashing some previous posts but still don't get caught up in modern legal code malarkey).

[tadkins]

In this case, being/having another Chaotic Neutral to take care of the psycho would be a good thing. They could handle it by whatever means are necessary.

[CSeiberlin]

As Roy once said; "I think I'm willing to take the alignment hit on this one."

What's more evil: Killing a remorseless maniac, or sparing them, and letting them continue on hurting and murdering innocent people?

Heh...what would Batman do?

:smallcool:

[(Un)Inspired]

Heh...what would Batman do?

:smallcool:

Well we know that Superman would kill the dude with a neck-snap.

Kuh-Chaaa! (That's a neck snapping sound).

[Solaris]

As Roy once said; "I think I'm willing to take the alignment hit on this one."

What's more evil: Killing a remorseless maniac, or sparing them, and letting them continue on hurting and murdering innocent people?

I'm with you. She's already given the remorseless maniac the opportunity... and the Chaotic Stupid Assassin passed it up.
High time to demonstrate who's better in combat. Beat her into negatives, stabilize her, and dump her onto a prison from which there is no escape. I know if I were the DM, I'd be plotting something very similar - I can't stand Chaotic Stupid characters.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well we know that Superman would kill the dude with a neck-snap.

Kuh-Chaaa! (That's a neck snapping sound).

Really? I thought it would be more along the lines of "huttah!" (https://41.media.tumblr.com/e00ccc7a4a593e192fd2385c1cfbc671/tumblr_ncu5kpHC1P1rw0mueo2_500.png)

[(Un)Inspired]

Really? I thought it would be more along the lines of "huttah!" (https://41.media.tumblr.com/e00ccc7a4a593e192fd2385c1cfbc671/tumblr_ncu5kpHC1P1rw0mueo2_500.png)

It sounds different when it's Kryptonians doing it.

EDIT: actually I just realized Kuh-Chaa! is the sound I make when I practice Karate-chopping. I guess it's not a neck-snapping-sound.

[Arbane]

Well we know that Superman would kill the dude with a neck-snap.

Kuh-Chaaa! (That's a neck snapping sound).

No, Superman would punch them out then drop them off at the nearest prison. He's as big on 'thou shalt not kill' as Batman and has a lot more other options.

Wonder Woman would kill them.


It sounds different when it's Kryptonians doing it.

I think with most people, it would sound more like 'POP'.

[Sith_Happens]

No, Superman would punch them out then drop them off at the nearest prison. He's as big on 'thou shalt not kill' as Batman and has a lot more other options.

Unlike Batman, though, Superman has a "Zod exception clause.":smallwink:

[thematgreen]

I had almost the exact same situation with a player. My character was an invenstigator. He made contacts in both the police force and the criminal underworld and utilized both to get information.

We had discovered that a local tavern owner was the head of a fairly large kidnapping ring. The badguy and I had a mutual respect since he actually had no idea that kids were involved and washed his hands of it, even allowing himself to be arrested so he could testify against the kidnappers.

We completed the adventure and the guy was arrested. I brokered a deal where he had time served and would get out with no harm done. It would stop him from becoming a thorn later and gave me a powerful contact in the city. The kidnappers were stopped and he had his orginzation on the watch to stop any futher activities.

...but that wasn't enough for our wizard. Throughout the campaign he kept pushing and threatening the guy, making attacks during diplomacy checks, and just being a negative nusiance. This culminated in him burning the guys tavern down while said badguy was in jail.

My response to this uncontrollable party member? Two signed letters explaining what had happened, one to the police, one to the criminal.

The wizard was arresed and killed in a prison "accident".

Long story short, in game, report the assassin to the authorities and spread the word about her actions. Let nature take it's course.

[(Un)Inspired]

No, Superman would punch them out then drop them off at the nearest prison. He's as big on 'thou shalt not kill' as Batman and has a lot more other options.


Not according to Znyder...

[Auron3991]

I'm seeing a lot of hard solutions, so let me offer a slightly softer one. Ask your DM to randomly have attacked NPCs have some serious class levels. A few NPCs that have levels like Crusader 11/Cleric 1 (and yes I do mean that build), Wizard/Sorcerer 12, or something similar ought to do the trick. It should teach them to be far more careful when their health goes negative off of one attack or they're paralyzed without warning.

There are natural consequences to a person being a murdering lunatic, especially in high fantasy settings. Have their punishment come from that.

[Dousedinoil]

Hey all,

I hope I'm not causing any problems by bumping this thread but I did say that I would let everyone know what happened.

So after spending so much time trying to figure out what to do, the problem took care of itself. IE the character was killed off.

Our DM purposely gave us a really hard battle that we probably shouldn't have won. Our assassin disguised herself as an enemy soldier and was supposed to get information and report back to us. Instead she did what she has done every other time and try and murder everyone as soon as they are vulnerable. She killed one guard but was left stuck surrounded by enemy with no armor on. Instead of just letting her die, we rushed in somewhat caught the soldiers by surprise. However, she refused to pull back and took massive damage without armor. I healed her back to full health and she went back in without equipping her armor. I suggested a retreat but she went back in and took massive damage again! Everyone was left with little health and it was time to GTFO.

However, instead of running away with 1hp, she went to investigate the cave the soldiers came out of. What I didn't mention was that while the fight was going on, other soldiers were running away from the rumbling cave. As she entered, the cave collapsed and killed her.

[Trasilor]

Hey all,

I hope I'm not causing any problems by bumping this thread but I did say that I would let everyone know what happened.

So after spending so much time trying to figure out what to do, the problem took care of itself. IE the character was killed off.

Our DM purposely gave us a really hard battle that we probably shouldn't have won. Our assassin disguised herself as an enemy soldier and was supposed to get information and report back to us. Instead she did what she has done every other time and try and murder everyone as soon as they are vulnerable. She killed one guard but was left stuck surrounded by enemy with no armor on. Instead of just letting her die, we rushed in somewhat caught the soldiers by surprise. However, she refused to pull back and took massive damage without armor. I healed her back to full health and she went back in without equipping her armor. I suggested a retreat but she went back in and took massive damage again! Everyone was left with little health and it was time to GTFO.

However, instead of running away with 1hp, she went to investigate the cave the soldiers came out of. What I didn't mention was that while the fight was going on, other soldiers were running away from the rumbling cave. As she entered, the cave collapsed and killed her.

Wow...rocks fall and she dies. :smallamused:

Hopefully the players next character is not 'assassin 2.0'.

For the players next character, you might want to play up how frustrated the the would-be assassin made your characters. Insist that you previously helped a 'partymate' without fully realizing their ill intentions and it made your character physically ill. Healing a person is a divine gift of Pelor and you will only do it to those that follow his basic tennats: Destroy evil, protect innocent...etc. Until this unknown person demonstrates these qualities you are under no obligation to heal them.

[Dousedinoil]

Well I guess I could give more details. I guess rocks just falling and dying sounds bad.

The soldiers were ex-military that deserted the king and as it turns out had a young (40 foot) dragon imprisoned in the cave. They harvested scales from the dragon and were selling them to a buyer at a high price.

So when we ambushed the camp, the soldiers yelled "were under attack" and the rest started to flee. Shortly after the mountainside was rumbling and shaking. The rocks falling occurred when the dragon came broke free of its shackles and bursts out the cave.

Our assassin failed to approach the shaking mountainside with caution. She would have lived If she wasnt at 1hp.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hopefully the players next character is not 'assassin 2.0'.
At least she has a thread full of ideas on how to deal with it now.