Is there a 3.5 Tracking handbook?

[aleucard]

Essentially, I want to build the kind of character that can find and/or follow anything under any circumstances. The closest there exists to this is the Scouting handbopk, but it says exactly zero about actually finding things if they're not right in front of you or are otherwise directly dangerous. A little help, please?

EDIT: I accidentally a letter. Sorry.

[Troacctid]

Be a Seer of 17th level or higher and manifest metafaculty? That should do it.

If you're not using magic, you basically just take the Track feat, boost your Survival checks, and that's about it. Maybe add in Scent, with waterbreathing so you can use it underwater. I guess Urban Tracking is a thing too, so you could also take that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Lets see.

Way's to track targets who's identity you know.

1) Create a component free Ice Assassin of the target and order it to tell you where said target is. As the Ice Assassin has all of the targets knowledge at the time of creation, this works quite well generally.

2) Wish yourself to the location of the target. The Transport Travelers Clause will dump you next to them with no chance of error.

3) Use a lot of Divination's to narrow down the targets location.

---
None magical tracking really stands no chance pass the first few levels unless your target is an utter idiot. At least direct tracking as opposed to gathering information about the target to surmise where they are or are going to be.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Everyone who is serious about not being tracked is going to get Pass without Trace in one form or another, so your best bet is going to be divinations.

Gloves of Psychometry can be very helpful in some circumstances and are reasonably cheap.
ECS offers the Inquisitives Goggles (requires Mark of Finding) which add some useful (and afaik unique) utility to finding and tracking people, long before Discern Location and similarly powerful options become available.

[Telok]

Sunday, December 14th, 6 PM.
A 7th level party consisting of a cleric, a wizard, two druids, a crusader, a warblade, and my savage bard/ur-priest functionally wiped with an encounter of four 3rd level orc rangers mounted on dire wolves, and two frost giants mounted on elephants. The survivors were the wizard (dimension door & invisibility) and my character (illusions & invisibility).

This was a wilderness campaign that started at 3rd level. The entire time we have been dealing with trackers, mostly goblins riding wolves and the occasional 1st level ranger goblin riding a worg. These people never did anything about it. They just sucked up the two or three times a week midnight raids and our enemies always knowing where we were. I tried to conceal tracks and campsites, I suggested traveling at night and resting during the day, I suggested Pass Without Trace and Rope Trick. They never did anything.

So they all died and the wizard lost all her belongings except her clothes and a spell component pouch while I escaped completely unharmed and rather richer for thier foolishness.

New campaign. Urban.
Should I play a core monk with only skill focus feats and cross class skills in order to get them all declared outlaws, sentenced to death, and hunted by everyone?

Anyways, the moral of the story: There really are people that stupid out there.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This was a wilderness campaign that started at 3rd level. The entire time we have been dealing with trackers, mostly goblins riding wolves and the occasional 1st level ranger goblin riding a worg. These people never did anything about it. They just sucked up the two or three times a week midnight raids and our enemies always knowing where we were. I tried to conceal tracks and campsites, I suggested traveling at night and resting during the day, I suggested Pass Without Trace and Rope Trick. They never did anything.
There is no enemy more lethal than stupidity. If they refuse to take precautions even if you shove them in their faces they deserve to die.


New campaign. Urban.
Should I play a core monk with only skill focus feats and cross class skills in order to get them all declared outlaws, sentenced to death, and hunted by everyone?

Anyways, the moral of the story: There really are people that stupid out there.
I prefer not to let OOC disagreements dictate my characters behaviour, and i doubt it would help the general mood at your table. If you're so fed up with it you can't enjoy playing anymore i'd just leave. No point in ruining their game out of spite (even if they seem plenty capable of it on their own).

[OttoVonBigby]

Void Disciple PrC, Complete Divine. In my campaign it's...involved, fluff-wise. Call it an attempt to balance the class's ridiculous power.

In essence, it makes you Cerebro.

[sideswipe]

Sunday, December 14th, 6 PM.
A 7th level party consisting of a cleric, a wizard, two druids, a crusader, a warblade, and my savage bard/ur-priest functionally wiped with an encounter of four 3rd level orc rangers mounted on dire wolves, and two frost giants mounted on elephants. The survivors were the wizard (dimension door & invisibility) and my character (illusions & invisibility).

This was a wilderness campaign that started at 3rd level. The entire time we have been dealing with trackers, mostly goblins riding wolves and the occasional 1st level ranger goblin riding a worg. These people never did anything about it. They just sucked up the two or three times a week midnight raids and our enemies always knowing where we were. I tried to conceal tracks and campsites, I suggested traveling at night and resting during the day, I suggested Pass Without Trace and Rope Trick. They never did anything.

So they all died and the wizard lost all her belongings except her clothes and a spell component pouch while I escaped completely unharmed and rather richer for thier foolishness.

New campaign. Urban.
Should I play a core monk with only skill focus feats and cross class skills in order to get them all declared outlaws, sentenced to death, and hunted by everyone?

Anyways, the moral of the story: There really are people that stupid out there.

i would play one of the orc rangers and haunt them forever.......

[Telok]

I'm sorry about the ranty derail, I just needed to get that off my chest. Usually these guys are pretty good but the tracking thing...

Anyways the very first blocks to tracking someone down are wands of first level spells like Pass Wothout Trace and Dead End (Spike Stones is pretty harsh on trackers too). Around 5th level spells like Nondetection come into play. By 10th level you're facing scrying detection and countermeasures combined with counter scrying and teleport/summons revenge attacks. By 15th level people have completed PrCs that give Mind Blank or can cast it themselves. At that point anyone you can simply Scry and teleport to is incompetent and walking around with a big bullseye on their back.

That said Gather Information and social tracking (hunting someone down through the chain of people that they know and interact with) are rarely defended against and surprisingly difficult to stop short of batman/tippy wizard levels of paranoia and spellcasting. Legend Lore and bardic knowledge are also applicable at higher levels if the target is at least semi-famous/infamous.

[aleucard]

Alright, so there's two different levels for the Tracking specialist to follow; the one where the target is paranoid or knowledgable enough to use the hard counters to at least most of the methods that use things like the Track feat, and the one where the target is not. Sure, assuming the first may be expedient, but that is 1) not usually all that flavorful for someone who wants to be a non-caster, and 2) can get prohibitively expensive to cover enough of the bases if you're a non-caster. Even a list of all the counters and reverse-counters would be nice.

[Telok]

Even a list of all the counters and reverse-counters would be nice.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is probably a good starting point. You'll mostly want the Mind Blank and Special Senses sections.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there an easy counter (a magic item, for instance) to Pass Without Trace? There are a bunch of items which grant a Pass Without Trace effect, but I haven't found any which negate it. I was hoping for an item akin to the Cloud Cloak (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a), which negates concealment from fog and mist: an out-of-the-blue solution to a frequent problem.

From the description of Gwaeron's Boots (Magic Item Compendium, page 109) it would appear that Pass Without Trace only affects the visual manifestation of tracks, and does nothing to prevent scent trails.

[Troacctid]

From the description of pass without trace...

The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subjects is impossible by nonmagical means.
Better get some magical means.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is there an easy counter (a magic item, for instance) to Pass Without Trace? There are a bunch of items which grant a Pass Without Trace effect, but I haven't found any which negate it. I was hoping for an item akin to the Cloud Cloak (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a), which negates concealment from fog and mist: an out-of-the-blue solution to a frequent problem.

From the description of Gwaeron's Boots (Magic Item Compendium, page 109) it would appear that Pass Without Trace only affects the visual manifestation of tracks, and does nothing to prevent scent trails.

Inquisitives Goggles from ECS are the only one i'm aware of. They require a Mark of Finding though.

[Curmudgeon]

Inquisitives Goggles from ECS are the only one i'm aware of. They require a Mark of Finding though.
Those don't do what I'm looking for, though: simply ignore Pass Without Trace and allow normal tracking. The Inquisitive Goggles are only good for finding the last creature to pass along, meaning any path that's used regularly confounds tracking.

[Bronk]

Those don't do what I'm looking for, though: simply ignore Pass Without Trace and allow normal tracking. The Inquisitive Goggles are only good for finding the last creature to pass along, meaning any path that's used regularly confounds tracking.

The spell just says 'magical means' without any kind of qualifier, so I'd think that any magic item that grants a magical bonus to survival checks for tracking would count, so definitely the Lens of Detection and possibly using the Onyx Dog, since it's a magic item that can track by itself. Goggles of Minute Seeing could help find individual tracks, and you could presumably follow them once found using the track feat and a survival check, but it isn't as straightforward as the other two.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The spell just says 'magical means' without any kind of qualifier, so I'd think that any magic item that grants a magical bonus to survival checks for tracking would count, so definitely the Lens of Detection and possibly using the Onyx Dog, since it's a magic item that can track by itself. Goggles of Minute Seeing could help find individual tracks but not follow them, per the Track feat.

A magical item that enhances your mundane tracking is not a magical means of tracking. Neither is a magical construct that tracks by mundane means.

Tracking requires either tracks or a scent trail, both of which are eliminated by Pass without Trace, so there is nothing to follow no matter how high you boost your survival check or how magically good you are at following tracks. There are no tracks to follow, so it doesn't work.

You need a way to track something else, and the ability to perceive that something else is gained by magic. The Inquisitive Goggles let you track by aura, but you need an item that the person you're tracking was the last to touch, the tracks can't be older than 24 hours and you need to pass a rather high search check.
It doesn't help that you need to spend 2 feats to use them.
There may be other items that do something similar at less cost, because that's pretty useless for the price you pay. If there are i don't recall them but my memory is far from perfect.


Other then that you're going straight into divination spells which have pretty much nothing to do with tracking even if they're used to the same end. They also have their own counters. Pass without Trace does nothing to stop Locate Creature, Circle Dance or in fact any divination spell that reveals someones location.

Everything but Discern Location is blocked by Private Sanctum or similar means. The only divination "spell" that can get past Mind Blank is Metafaculty afaik, and even that it still limited by the fact that you need to have seen the target before. It's also only available to a relatively small subset of manifesters.

[Bronk]

A magical item that enhances your mundane tracking is not a magical means of tracking. Neither is a magical construct that tracks by mundane means.

Tracking requires either tracks or a scent trail, both of which are eliminated by Pass without Trace, so there is nothing to follow no matter how high you boost your survival check or how magically good you are at following tracks. There are no tracks to follow, so it doesn't work.


I think you might be reading into the spell a bit.

First, it has a qualifier to its function... tracking is only impossible without magical means, and I think that using a magic item to track counts as 'magical means'. With the Lens and the Goggles, you're tracking while looking through a magic item that boosts your tracking ability with magic. With the dog, you're using a small rock to create a magic dog that can track for you.

Second, even if it does completely eliminate what it says it does, even to magical means, it only eliminates 'footprints' and 'scent', not all tracks, so trackers with the Scent ability wouldn't get their bonus, and you could follow the other traces mentioned by the track feat (broken branches, tufts of hair, and displaced pebbles).

At worst, the 'Pass Without Trace' spell would require you to use those 'magical means' and then make a tracking roll equivalent to tracking over firm or hard ground.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Second, even if it does completely eliminate what it says it does, even to magical means, it only eliminates 'footprints' and 'scent', not all tracks, so trackers with the Scent ability wouldn't get their bonus, and you could follow the other traces mentioned by the track feat (broken branches, tufts of hair, and displaced pebbles).

At worst, the 'Pass Without Trace' spell would require you to use those 'magical means' and then make a tracking roll equivalent to tracking over firm or hard ground.

If you want to rule it that way, that's your prerogative. I interpret "can't be tracked by mundane means" as "can't be tracked by any of the things the Track feat normally uses". If you want to follow someone protected like that you'll have to find a way to see something else (auras, for example) that can be used to follow the trail, not just increase your ability to notice the things that you could follow anyway.

I remembered one item that might help. The Far Corners of the World:Magic Items of the Woodlands article has the Fey Tracker. It allows you to track even someone under Pass without Trace or Trackless Step, but they get a DC15 will save to avoid it. It's also really expensive (22,500gp), especially considering it's limited usefulness. So, not all that useful but maybe you can get your DM to allow something similar with a harder (or no) save.

[Telonius]

Is there an easy counter (a magic item, for instance) to Pass Without Trace? There are a bunch of items which grant a Pass Without Trace effect, but I haven't found any which negate it. I was hoping for an item akin to the Cloud Cloak (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a), which negates concealment from fog and mist: an out-of-the-blue solution to a frequent problem.

From the description of Gwaeron's Boots (Magic Item Compendium, page 109) it would appear that Pass Without Trace only affects the visual manifestation of tracks, and does nothing to prevent scent trails.

Kind of a long shot, but maybe Speak with Plants? "Pardon me, Mr. Undergrowth, but did someone step on you a few minutes ago?"

[Curmudgeon]

I remembered one item that might help. The Far Corners of the World:Magic Items of the Woodlands article has the Fey Tracker. It allows you to track even someone under Pass without Trace or Trackless Step, but they get a DC15 will save to avoid it. It's also really expensive (22,500gp), especially considering it's limited usefulness. So, not all that useful but maybe you can get your DM to allow something similar with a harder (or no) save.
OK, that's pretty much the sort of item I was hoping existed, if a bit disappointing. With the low Will save the Feytracker is likely only to work if you're attempting to track a group, where the odds of at least one character failing their save would make it practical. However, it's better than nothing. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Everyone who is serious about not being tracked is going to get Pass without Trace in one form or another, so your best bet is going to be divinations.
Nonononono. These type of statements that you can just stop X with Y specific thing are almost never valid. I've not once seen anyone even mention pass without trace in any build outside a discussion on mundane tracking. There are 1,000 things to defend against and no one defends against even a small portion of them. The only reason someone would use pass without trace is if they knew they were being tracked, or were at such a high level that they have nothing better to do with their 1st level spells at which point you're teleporting around anyway and it's not any help. Any defense that isn't general purpose is close to garbage. Unless you face the same challenge twice, which is extremely rare.

Divinations are good by level 15, but suck at low level. With will negates, SR yes and a 1 hour casting time, and a big bonus to save DCs on anything you haven't met face to face, scrying at level 7 is merely ok. Again, going after the same foe twice is uncommon.

Skills are pretty easy to pump so I'm surprised there isn't a handbook with ways to get survival/track to epic DCs at low level. That could be quite handy since divinations and teleportation don't become that great until high level. Once you do get to high level yeah tracking isn't that much use. Though it could combine well with a way to trace teleportation and perhaps some other divinations. That woudkl make a good alternate option for going after annoying fleeing foes, as they might pass their save on scrying. Having several magical and mundane ways to locate a foe would be handy to cover contingencies.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nonononono. These type of statements that you can just stop X with Y specific thing are almost never valid. I've not once seen anyone even mention pass without trace in any build outside a discussion on mundane tracking.
The difference is that you don't need to spent in-combat actions and can plan it beforehand. You'll know beforehand when you want to avoid being tracked. If getting a first level spell to help with that is too much effort you're clearly not serious about not being tracked, so there's no need for anyone following you to expend special resources to do so.


Divinations are good by level 15, but suck at low level. With will negates, SR yes and a 1 hour casting time, and a big bonus to save DCs on anything you haven't met face to face, scrying at level 7 is merely ok. Again, going after the same foe twice is uncommon.
Scrying is hardly the only divination usable to find someone. There's enough information gathering spells to fill a whole spellbook with, and people have written handbooks about using them efficiently.


Skills are pretty easy to pump so I'm surprised there isn't a handbook with ways to get survival/track to epic DCs at low level. That could be quite handy since divinations and teleportation don't become that great until high level. Once you do get to high level yeah tracking isn't that much use. Though it could combine well with a way to trace teleportation and perhaps some other divinations. That woudkl make a good alternate option for going after annoying fleeing foes, as they might pass their save on scrying. Having several magical and mundane ways to locate a foe would be handy to cover contingencies.

Investing into mundane tracking is a waste of resources. Anyone you can track with it isn't serious about not being followed in the first place because it's hard-countered by a long duration first level spell.
Even without that, all you need to avoid mundane tracking is flight, which pretty much everyone gets asap because it has tons of other benefits.