Monk Fighter Multiclass

[Fightmaster]

I'm starting a new campaign as a monk, and I was wondering how I could go about being less squishy. I figured I could take some levels in fighter possibly. Could anyone recommend a good level ratio/disciplines?

[silveralen]

Okay, first off why did you think monk/fighter makes you less squishy? I don't really see much synergy in that regard behind a little extra HP, so I need a little more info on how you are bundling them together.

Also, I assume you are looking for primary monk with a fighter dip?

[Fightmaster]

Aside from the extra hit points, I could possibly go for Combat Master fighter, and the dueling fighting style. I want most of my levels to be monk however. I was considering choosing elemental monk as well

[Easy_Lee]

Monk in general doesn't multiclass too well. There are some popular builds with shadow monk, since it's the least ki-dependent, but the class likes its ki. Elemental monks are even more hesitant to multiclass, due to higher ki-requirements than anybody. Be very careful when multiclassing a monk.

Fighter doesn't really add tankiness. What it would do is give you a fighting style, and you would take dueling since it works with your unarmed strikes. Is this worth it? My suspicion is no.

Some feel an elemental monk / warlock build has merit. This mostly stems from the fact that water whip is a bonus action, so you could eldritch blast + water whip in the same round for some good dps, especially after hex.

However, I suspect Shadow Monk 8 / blade-pact warlock 12 is the best warlock / monk hybrid, due to hex + thirsting blade + 3-4 fist attacks yielding some serious damage. That variant can dumpstat wisdom, since you can just take armor of shadows and max DEX for pretty good AC. You would want to take the warlock levels first for that build.

All that said, if you want to play an elemental monk, i suggest you just play an elemental monk.

[TheOOB]

With rare exception, multiclassing trades power for verisility. Monks are already pretty darn tough, they can get a high AC, decent AC, and some good saves. The only thing fighting gives to a monk is action surge, but that probabally not worth losing two levels for most of your career.

[Eslin]

If you're early on, at least 3 levels each of battlemaster fighter and open hand monk synergise very well. 5 of monk and 4 of fighter at least, really - you get 4 attacks a round and the best disabling of any martial character.

[odigity]

However, I suspect Shadow Monk 8 / blade-pact warlock 12 is the best warlock / monk hybrid, due to hex + thirsting blade + 3-4 fist attacks yielding some serious damage.

Thirsting Blade doesn't stack with any other Extra Attack feature, including the Monk's Extra Attack at level 5. It would be entirely redundant.


That variant can dumpstat wisdom, since you can just take armor of shadows and max DEX for pretty good AC.

Sure, 18 AC is close to 20 AC, but if you're dumping Wis, you're missing out on Stunning Fist, which is amazing.

I think the concensus on the forums for best multiclass for Monk is Shadow Monk + Assassin Rogue.

I'm personally playing a Monk right now with 1 Warlock level for Hex, because it adds a lot of damage across the Monk's 4 attacks. Plan to grab a second level for Devil's Sight and Mask of Many Faces invocations, and because a second spell lot is nice. Then either straight Shadow Monk to 18, or possible also dip some Assassin Rogue. I hate having a Monk fail basic climb/swim checks because my Str sucks and I'm not proficient in Athletics; even one level of Rogue would fix that up quick (+1 prof + Expertise) on top of sneak atack, which would trigger any time I use the Monk's Shadow Step.

[Giant2005]

Monk Paladin is my favorite Monk multi although for it to really shine, you want to have 11 Pally levels which means you aren't primarily a Monk. You also want to use Plate Mail unless you roll amazing stats which means you aren't going to seem very Monk-ey.
If you insist on primarily being a Monk, then the only low level dip that would add much is Warlock or Ranger for Hex or Hunter's Mark respectively but even those are only really helpful for fights in which the enemy has quite a sack of HP, otherwise you are better off using those bonus actions to hit more.
If Elemental Monk is your goal, you are probably best to just stay pure - those Elemental abilities require some serious Monk levels to be able to use them more than once or twice.

[odigity]

Monk Paladin is my favorite Monk multi although for it to really shine, you want to have 11 Pally levels which means you aren't primarily a Monk. You also want to use Plate Mail unless you roll amazing stats which means you aren't going to seem very Monk-ey.

Wait, what? How does that work? What about the combination do you like, and how do you deal with wanting good scores in four of six abilities, assuming you're dumping Str/Int?

[Xetheral]

I'm starting a new campaign as a monk, and I was wondering how I could go about being less squishy. I figured I could take some levels in fighter possibly. Could anyone recommend a good level ratio/disciplines?


Aside from the extra hit points, I could possibly go for Combat Master fighter, and the dueling fighting style. I want most of my levels to be monk however. I was considering choosing elemental monk as well

Battle Master and Elemental Monk work fine together. They don't have awesome synergy, but there is nothing wrong with combining them either. Given that you want most of your levels in Monk, Battle Master 4 is the obvious cutoff point: level 5 fighter only gets you the redundant Extra Attack ability. (Fighter 3, 6, or 8 also wouldn't be bad.)

Here are two possible build outlines for Battle Master 4/Elemental Monk X:

Option 1: Dex/Wis. Wield a quarterstaff (dueling for one-handed, GWF for two-handed) and eventually pick up polearm master for the opportunity attack (the bonus action attack is less useful, but still helps conserve Ki and synergizes well with either Fighter fighting style). Either pick maneuvers to taste and go for utility and buffing Elemental abilities that don't offer saves, OR, pick maneuvers and Elemental abilities that target different saves.

Option 2: Straight Wis. Wield a quarterstaff (dueling for one-handed), and pick up Magic Initiate: Druid ASAP to get access to the Shillelagh cantrip. Since you won't be fighting unarmed, don't worry about martial arts and instead wear heavy armor--you can still use your Ki ability just fine. Pick maneuvers that don't offer saving throws. Go for bonus action Elemental abilities like Water Whip, or pick spells that provide saving throws. Be sure to save some Ki for Stunning Strikes. After maxing your Wisdom, grab polearm master as above and swap out Water Whip at the next opportunity.

[Giant2005]

Wait, what? How does that work? What about the combination do you like, and how do you deal with wanting good scores in four of six abilities, assuming you're dumping Str/Int?

You only really need Str and Cha (Wis would be nice too if you find yourself with points to spare).
Basically, stick yourself in Plate and wield a Greatsword or whatever weapon you want and use the Monk for Flurry of Blows, Evasion and Deflect Missiles. Even without going Dex, Evasion is still pretty amazing with the Paladin +cha to saves aura and with the Pally's (Oathbringer) extra 1D8+5 to all attacks, those extra two attacks from Flurry really hurt and also give more opportunities for smiting when some quick burst damage is really needed.
Even if you can't afford to Wis, you can get some nice, free secondary effects on your Flurry of Blows by going Way of the Open Hand. You can prevent your opponent(s) from taking reactions which is like a free disengage every turn, or if your target has a low Dex save (Which is pretty common) you have a fair chance of knocking them prone even with a Wis as low as 10 (DC 14). That completely Wisdomless attack would have a 65% chance of knocking the gargantuan Tarrasque on his ass for instance (Or more likely just blow one of the Tarrasque's legendary resistances).
There are lots of good things about the combination but really it is all about Flurry of Blows and all of the Paladin's extra damage on attacks. More attacks plus more bonus damage on attacks brings out both the best sustainable and burst damage in the game and you give up virtually nothing for it. After level 11 the Pally doesn't get much of interest and there is little else out there that is of interest to a Pally for dipping.

[Person_Man]

My opinion is that the Monk by itself is a useful and interesting class, but that it doesn't really multi-class well with anything.

1) Like every build that doesn't rely on cantrips, its basically mandatory to get Extra Attack at 5th level. So dipping a few levels into other classes delays and nerfs your at-will attacks. And Extra Attack doesn't stack, so something like Monk 5/Whatever 5+ would be a huge waste.

2) Because of Marital Arts restrictions, the Monk relies on your unarmed damage progression for his damage to remain comparable to other classes, which is based on your strait Monk level.

3) Every other offensive ability you have is requires on Ki, which is based on your strait Monk level.

4) It introduces MAD into any build that isn't already Wisdom based.

5) There are many ways to get to AC 20ish that don't involve Unarmored Defense, but Unarmored Defense prevents you from using magic armor or a magic shield.

[Easy_Lee]

Thirsting Blade doesn't stack with any other Extra Attack feature, including the Monk's Extra Attack at level 5. It would be entirely redundant.


Hungering blade, then, whichever was the one that adds CHA to damage. I thought it was pretty obvious which I was talking about.

[Z3ro]

Even the best monk mixes make poor tanks, but I disagree that they don't multiclass well. My favorite is a Ranger 3 dip; gives you a fighting style, some slight tracking utility, access to hunter's mark, and either colossus slayer or horde breaker. You give up very little (other than a feat and empty body, which is good) but if you're starting at low level that only a small portion of your player career. I've played this character up to level 12 and it was remarkably successful.

[SharkForce]

depending on DM, a monk dip into a moon druid build can be quite beneficial.

you're likely to spend a fairly large amount of time not wearing armour, so you really just need your DM to agree that natural weapons are acceptable for martial arts :P

(that, however, is of course quite a different thing from a monk splashing druid, which isn't likely to be all that great).

[Human Paragon 3]

Barbarian would probably be a better multi-class. Rage gives a flat +2 to damage per hit for a 1 level dip AND resistance to damage, and the best HD in the game. Taking it to 3 gives you resistance to almost all damage or yet another extra attack.

[odigity]

I love Monk, so I've studied the multiclassing possibilities extensively -- which is why all these crazy posts are bugging the crap out of me with their mostly wrongness... :)


Barbarian would probably be a better multi-class. Rage gives a flat +2 to damage per hit for a 1 level dip AND resistance to damage, and the best HD in the game. Taking it to 3 gives you resistance to almost all damage or yet another extra attack.

Except now you've added Str as the new most important stat on top of the already MAD monk. It doesn't work well.


depending on DM, a monk dip into a moon druid build can be quite beneficial.

Great in concept, but entirely depependant on how your DM rules on a long list of questions that RAW doesn't even begin to address.


You only really need Str and Cha (Wis would be nice too if you find yourself with points to spare).Basically, stick yourself in Plate and wield a Greatsword or whatever weapon you want and use the Monk for Flurry of Blows, Evasion and Deflect Missiles. Even without going Dex, Evasion is still pretty amazing with the Paladin +cha to saves aura and with the Pally's (Oathbringer) extra 1D8+5 to all attacks, those extra two attacks from Flurry really hurt and also give more opportunities for smiting when some quick burst damage is really needed.
Even if you can't afford to Wis, you can get some nice, free secondary effects on your Flurry of Blows by going Way of the Open Hand. You can prevent your opponent(s) from taking reactions which is like a free disengage every turn, or if your target has a low Dex save (Which is pretty common) you have a fair chance of knocking them prone even with a Wis as low as 10 (DC 14). That completely Wisdomless attack would have a 65% chance of knocking the gargantuan Tarrasque on his ass for instance (Or more likely just blow one of the Tarrasque's legendary resistances).
There are lots of good things about the combination but really it is all about Flurry of Blows and all of the Paladin's extra damage on attacks. More attacks plus more bonus damage on attacks brings out both the best sustainable and burst damage in the game and you give up virtually nothing for it. After level 11 the Pally doesn't get much of interest and there is little else out there that is of interest to a Pally for dipping.

So much wrong, I don't know where to begin. When you said Paladin/Monk, I naturally assumed you meant a Dex-based char martial for synergy. The fact that you actually meant Str just boggles my mind. Yet another important stat you have to pump, which means you will end up sucking at everything.

What are you even dipping Monk for at this point? You're not getting the defense, because you're wearing armor. You claim you value Flurry of Blows, but that runs off Ki points, of which you'll have few. You claim to value Open Hand techniques, but recommend dumping Wis (you actually don't have a choice if doing point-buy), so your saves suck -- which also applys to Stunning Strike. You claim to value Evasion, but then recommend dumping Dex, which means Evasion will trigger far less often -- and it's definitely not worth dipping SIX levels for. So all that for a minor Bonus Action attack (Martial Arts) to add a smite to, and maybe a few Bonus Action double-attacks (Flurry) per short rest?

You could have gotten a Bonus Action attack from two-weapon fighting, or Polearm Master, which would have been far more efficient than dipping levels into one of the least compatiable multileclasses that exists in 5e. If you really wanted the Monk's unarmed strike instead (because you don't want to wield a polearm or two weapons), fine -- take ONE level for Martial Arts, and that's it. Free bonus action unarmed strike for life, plus a tiny AC boost if you wake up naked in a cell. But don't ever recommend this to noobs, please.


Even the best monk mixes make poor tanks, but I disagree that they don't multiclass well. My favorite is a Ranger 3 dip; gives you a fighting style, some slight tracking utility, access to hunter's mark, and either colossus slayer or horde breaker. You give up very little (other than a feat and empty body, which is good) but if you're starting at low level that only a small portion of your player career. I've played this character up to level 12 and it was remarkably successful.

This is the only post I'll give a pass on. Because Monks can get 2 attacks @ lvl 1 (Martial Arts), 3 attacks @ lvl 2 (Flurry of Blows), and 4 attacks @ L5 (Extra Attack), it's incredibly beneficial to have sources of extra damage -- which is I why dipping 1-2 levels of Warlock makes sense. You get Hex, which you can cast 1-2/short rest, and you also get the best ranged attack in the game, which you otherwise suck at.

For the same reason, Ranger is a decent choise (Hunter's Mark instead of Hex), although Ranger slots don't come back with a short rest, and it doesn't have Eldritch Blast, so it's not nearly as good as Warlock.

[silveralen]

Barbarian would probably be a better multi-class. Rage gives a flat +2 to damage per hit for a 1 level dip AND resistance to damage, and the best HD in the game. Taking it to 3 gives you resistance to almost all damage or yet another extra attack.

Has to be a strength based attack to benefit from rage damage if I recall, as well as reckless attack. Which means dex will be low, resulting in a lower AC, which brings us back to issues of fragility.

[numerek]

I think fighter is the best way to boost a monks damage. 1 level = +2 damage on all attacks every turn all day every day, including reactions you also get a hp restore ability. beyond that I feel it is diminishing returns, everybody loves action surge but it is one extra action per short or long rest (which compared to the ki loss is only 1 extra attack per short rest once the character has extra attack), and battle master is 4d8s+4riders per short or long rest. Will both of those help your burst damage yes, will both of them cover the ki loss yes, will they make up for the delay of the other monk abilities questionable. But compared with dueling I don't think you are getting as much, dueling will add more damage than action surge as long as the monk lands more than ((weapon damage + ability modifier + 2) * accuracy% / 2) attacks per short or long rest, at best that should take 2 rounds of combat. for the superiority dice 4d8 / 2 attacks per short rest, should take 5 rounds at 50% accuracy. So if your campaign averages more than 7 rounds of combat per short or long rest dueling would do more than action surge and superiority dice combined.

barbarian rage is a daily ability and at 3rd level you only get 3. and even if 3 abilities a day is good enough for your campaign as others have said it makes your character more mad.

bard meh

cleric bless?

dipping druid on monk would get you a bear form and a fancy stick at best, when you talk druid monk combo you are dipping monk.

fighter discussed above

monk ah alternate multimonoclass rules?

paladin gets dueling at 2nd but your smiting is going to be similar to battle masters damage, slightly better against undead or fiend. if you are into hunters mark you can get it with oath of vengenance will discuss in ranger, I would actually prefer divine favor cause you don't have to target it but it is still concentration and unlike hex and hunters mark it only last 1 minute, I have been in battles where 1 minute buffs have warn off. also has bless option which could add comparable damage when you factor in the extra damage done by the 2 other people that can be affected by it as well as your self. you also get 10 or more hitpoints to hand out as you see fit.

ranger I would actually say is better than warlock because you get dueling and hunter's mark, though hunter's mark is really only good if you can retarget on turns where for whatever reason you can't attack with your bonus action or if you are fighting things that take multiple turns to go down so again the 1 level dip with fighter is what I believe to be the most cost effective. if you did take 2 ranger and still want more then colossus slayer is the least situational of the hunter's prey choices, 4.5 damage * situational% is actually comparable to dueling but since the situation is previously damaged there is the added chance that when it does happen it is more overkill.

rogue largely depend on if your dm allows sneak attack with unarmed attacks, the designers said it would be fine. if so one level for an extra d6*situational% again could be comparable, depends on availability of an ally in the right spot or your ability to get advantage on your attacks, you also get 1 or 2 skills depending on which class you start in and you get expertise in 2 skills, definitely a dip to consider if your group needs a skill monkey and you also want a boost to your damage per turn. a 2nd level could save you some ki at the cost of some ki, and 3rd level should get you some free advantage one turn a fight and another d6*situational%.

sorcerer meh? can be good if you are going for high movement speed, see world's fastest man thread.

warlock hex takes your bonus action to cast and your bonus action to retarget and is concentration and at 1 level you only get it 1 hour per short rest max, at 2 levels 2 hours per short rest. Hex is incredible if you have nothing else to do with your bonus action but if you have to trade weapon damage + ability modifier for some d6s it can easily become a wash and that is not something to give up ability points and levels to get. yes eldritch blast may be slightly better that some of the other monk ranged options but mostly only once you reach character level 11 when it gets a 3rd attack and even then it depends on your charisma vs dexterity. and the damage resistance of the target. warlock for devil's sight for a shadow monk is certainly a good dip.

wizard meh?

[Giddonihah]

If your goal is to be less squishy, multiclassing Fighter will hurt more than help. I find multiclassing fighter is good if you want more damage (Dueling, Action Surge, Battle Master). But Monk has defensive abilities that you are slowing the progression of.

[numerek]

If your goal is to be less squishy, multiclassing Fighter will hurt more than help. I find multiclassing fighter is good if you want more damage (Dueling, Action Surge, Battle Master). But Monk has defensive abilities that you are slowing the progression of.

a good offense is the best defense

[odigity]

...fighter, and the dueling fighting style.


What it would do is give you a fighting style, and you would take dueling since it works with your unarmed strikes.


I think fighter is the best way to boost a monks damage. 1 level = +2 damage on all attacks every turn all day every day, including reactions you also get a hp restore ability.But compared with dueling I don't think you are getting as much, dueling will add more damage than action surge as long as the monk lands more than ((weapon damage + ability modifier + 2) * accuracy% / 2) attacks per short or long rest, at best that should take 2 rounds of combat. for the superiority dice 4d8 / 2 attacks per short rest, should take 5 rounds at 50% accuracy. So if your campaign averages more than 7 rounds of combat per short or long rest dueling would do more than action surge and superiority dice combined.


I find multiclassing fighter is good if you want more damage (Dueling, Action Surge, Battle Master).

Why is almost everyone in this thread acting as if Dueling works with the Monk, when it most definitely does not?

PHB72: "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

If you fight with a one-handed monk weapon (probably short sword, or quarterstaff if you're doing Polearm Master cheese), then yes, you get +2 dmg to attacks with THAT weapon, which is once/turn until level 5, then twice/turn. It does nothing for the Bonus Action attacks from Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows, because those use your unarmed strikes, and it does nothing if you wield your quarterstaff two-handed, which you can do without dipping a level of Fighter, and still have a +1 avg dmg to attacks with no downside (because you're not going to use a shield either way).

So... why Dueling? Why is everyone acting as if Dueling makes any sense with Monk? Am I crazy? Did I miss something obvious?


warlock hex takes your bonus action to cast and your bonus action to retarget and is concentration and at 1 level you only get it 1 hour per short rest max, at 2 levels 2 hours per short rest. Hex is incredible if you have nothing else to do with your bonus action but if you have to trade weapon damage + ability modifier for some d6s it can easily become a wash and that is not something to give up ability points and levels to get.

Yes, that's correct. I frequently have to weigh my options and choose between Martial Arts for one attack, spending a Ki point on Flurry of Blows for two attacks, or casting/retargeting Hex to a target I expect to attack for more than just this round (or to give disadv on Str so a team mate can grapple/shove). I'm ok with that. Hex is the optimal choice often enough that I don't regret the one level to have it, even though I really do feel the delay of continuously getting my combat abilities one level later than my party members.


yes eldritch blast may be slightly better that some of the other monk ranged options but mostly only once you reach character level 11 when it gets a 3rd attack and even then it depends on your charisma vs dexterity. and the damage resistance of the target. warlock for devil's sight for a shadow monk is certainly a good dip.

True, EB is not terribly exciting when you can't afford to pump your Cha (I started with a 14, and intend to let it stay there). But it's better than nothing when ranged attacks are the preferred option in a round.

Finally, you nailed it with Devil's Sight -- along with Mask of Many Faces, is what sealed the deal for me. I intend to grab my second and last level of Warlock after getting to Shadow Monk 5 to complete the basic melee package. I'll have Darkness by then (lvl 3 ability), making the second level finally worth it. Also looking forward to finally getting a second spell slot so I can cast Hellish Rebuke for the first time, ever. :) (my slot is always spent on Hex, so HR just sits there on my char sheet collecting dust)

[Feldarove]

A lot of people here are discussing which level dips are best, but no ones touched exactly how to build the a monk that is less squishy.

Monk early on has a really good AC. Not as great as a chain shirt wearing shield wielder, but if you want a mega ac at low levels, play that. But you want to play a monk. As you level, its easy to bump your AC by simply adding to dex and wis, which works out great for your other abilities.

Obviously you don't have great hit points, however, if you rolled decent stats, you can quickly get your dex wis were you want them, and focus on that with feats and stat increases soon enough.

Saves....eventually the monk is the best in the business at saves....so...you can't really beat that

BUT....what is important to remember is that the monk is great at not having to worry about "tanking" because so many of its abilities can neutralize enemies.

So for a discipline to maximize that...

I think way of the open hand is your best bet. You get your self heal ability (which isn't amazing, but still), and allows you to spend ki at early levels to kick opponents down or away, or maybe both!. Once you get stunning strike you can just stun lock punks like a dirty WoW rogue.

I wouldn't take dips in other classes just to be less squishy. If you want to play a monk, its good enough, and just go with it. If you have a neat concept in mind that leads you to want to dip in other classes, then go for it.

[numerek]

Why is almost everyone in this thread acting as if Dueling works with the Monk, when it most definitely does not?

PHB72: "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

If you fight with a one-handed monk weapon (probably short sword, or quarterstaff if you're doing Polearm Master cheese), then yes, you get +2 dmg to attacks with THAT weapon, which is once/turn until level 5, then twice/turn. It does nothing for the Bonus Action attacks from Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows, because those use your unarmed strikes, and it does nothing if you wield your quarterstaff two-handed, which you can do without dipping a level of Fighter, and still have a +1 avg dmg to attacks with no downside (because you're not going to use a shield either way).

So... why Dueling? Why is everyone acting as if Dueling makes any sense with Monk? Am I crazy? Did I miss something obvious?

unarmed is listed in the weapon table as a simple weapon. It is not much of a stretch to say you are wielding your fist/head/foot/knee whatever. the in one hand part is a little bit trickier but if your dm doesn't allow it no big deal just don't multi into fighter. in order to make it work you would be using unarmed for all of your attacks 3d4+3*dex+6=13.5+3*dex is better than 2d8+1d4+3*dex=11.5+3*dex obviously it gets better when your unarmed dice go up. I would probably get monk 6 for a decent amount of ki for flurries, extra attack, unarmed counts as magical, and unarmed damage dice is d6, so then 4d6+4*dex+8=22+4*dex > 2d8+2d6+4*dex=16+4*dex, this also gives the nice benefit of the damage range is 3-8+dex vs 1-8+dex/1-6+dex meaning your have a higher minimum and the same maximum, if you want you can even wait till 11 or 12 when unarmed is equal to quarterstaff wielded in both hands. Or if you have some sort of magical quarterstaff or other monk weapon you don't ever have to do.

[Giant2005]

So much wrong, I don't know where to begin. When you said Paladin/Monk, I naturally assumed you meant a Dex-based char martial for synergy. The fact that you actually meant Str just boggles my mind. Yet another important stat you have to pump, which means you will end up sucking at everything.

What are you even dipping Monk for at this point? You're not getting the defense, because you're wearing armor. You claim you value Flurry of Blows, but that runs off Ki points, of which you'll have few. You claim to value Open Hand techniques, but recommend dumping Wis (you actually don't have a choice if doing point-buy), so your saves suck -- which also applys to Stunning Strike. You claim to value Evasion, but then recommend dumping Dex, which means Evasion will trigger far less often -- and it's definitely not worth dipping SIX levels for. So all that for a minor Bonus Action attack (Martial Arts) to add a smite to, and maybe a few Bonus Action double-attacks (Flurry) per short rest?

You could have gotten a Bonus Action attack from two-weapon fighting, or Polearm Master, which would have been far more efficient than dipping levels into one of the least compatiable multileclasses that exists in 5e. If you really wanted the Monk's unarmed strike instead (because you don't want to wield a polearm or two weapons), fine -- take ONE level for Martial Arts, and that's it. Free bonus action unarmed strike for life, plus a tiny AC boost if you wake up naked in a cell. But don't ever recommend this to noobs, please.

You should have actually read the post before you commented - the build only relies on Str/Cha, it isn't any more MAD than the average Paladin but I explained that already so I won't go into detail.
The rest of it is semi-accurate, most of what just reinforces what I have already said except for all of that Monk's unarmed strike stuff. Martial Arts doesn't work when armored so that bonus action doesn't apply - only the Flurry of Blows bonus attacks apply when armored.
Having two bonus attacks is obviously more effective than one and there will be plenty enough of them that you can spam it constantly - when you deal as much damage as this combination does, most encounters tend to last only one or two rounds which means with 6 monk levels, you have enough Ki points for 3-6 encounters per short rest which is more than enough. For instance, a 4 man team relying on this combination for damage will be killing Tiamat in 24 hours and they will be doing it in a single round.
Damage-wise, it is the most powerful combination in the game, each round it gets a sustained 2(2D6+1D8+10) + 2(1D8+11) damage plus the opportunity for 4 smites for burst damage if required and it gives up very little to do it. Unless you roll extremely well, you will be giving up a little bit of Monk utility due to being limited to effects that have no save or effects that target weak saves of your enemy but offensively and defensively you stand alone at the peak of perfection. You can match a Fighter's peak AC of 21 while having more heals via Lay on Hands and Wholeness of Body and better non=physical defenses via Evasion, Aura of Protection and Aura of Courage. The damage as already mentioned is superior to all and begins as early as level 13, a fighter doesn't meet his peak until level 20 and even then his damage is sub-par to the Paladin/Monk combo's. The combo essentially amounts to more than the sum of its parts - it has better defense and damage than both a pure Monk and a pure Paladin. It is the best martial multi-class in the game.

[odigity]

You should have actually read the post before you commented

I obviously did, since I responded to what you said point by point. What was the point of this comment?


- the build only relies on Str/Cha, it isn't any more MAD than the average Paladin but I explained that already so I won't go into detail.

Except you'll need 13s minimum in both Dex and Wis just to multiclass. And that assumes you don't care about a single Monk ability that is Dex/Wis dependant, which is nearly all of them.


...snip the rest...

So, as I said in my previous post, and which you just reinforced, you're obviously doing this all for one thing -- the Flurry. That's all you care about. You just want four attacks per round to dump your divine smites in.

That's not exactly a clever synergy, that's rather obvious. And you can do it many other ways -- more synergistic ways. A Paladin can already get two attacks per round by level 5. A Bonus Action attack is possible via two weapon fighting or Polearm Master. You can dip 3 levels of Battle Master to get Riposte, which is a pretty reliable source of Reaction attacks, for even more fun. You can get yet another attack from Haste, which you don't even need to leave Paladin for -- Vengeance Paladin gets it at level 9.

If that's all it's about, stop with all the noise and just say so. Say "I want four attacks to put divine smites on". Same as I said "I want Hex or Hunter's Mark to add 1d6 to my four attacks", so we can save time and talk about the value of that particular proposition as compared to the alternatives.

[Easy_Lee]

Why is almost everyone in this thread acting as if Dueling works with the Monk, when it most definitely does not?

Unarmed strike is on the weapons table and can be used one-handed. That alone is enough to dismiss your entire post as wrong wrong wrong. If the mechanics say you're wrong, and they do, then you're wrong.

But let's think about it some more. You can "hold" a weapon without wielding it; you don't lose dueling benefit for holding a shield in your offhand, but you would if you used the shield to attack that round. Whether or not something is a weapon is based on whether you use it to attack. This is why dueling works with any weapon at all. All fighters are still holding their unarmed strike, they're just not using it to attack. Thus, since they didn't attack with another weapon, and they are using a one-handed weapon, they qualify for dueling. If that weren't the case, then nobody except for a bare-handed monk would ever qualify for dueling.

With all of that in mind, is the bare-handed monk holding a weapon? If his body is a weapon, then yes. I say body because, since your whole body is part of your body, then your fists are not separate weapons, but a single weapon. Furthermore, unarmed is on the weapons table. Is it a one-handed weapon? Yes, because it doesn't require two free hands to use. Matter of fact, unarmed strike doesn't even say what part of your body you're using. It could be anything, even a your willy.

So, is the monk holding a single weapon and wielding no other weapons? If he's bare-handed, then yes, he's wielding his body and nothing else. If he swings another weapon and does a flurry of blows or unarmed strike in the same turn, then he wouldn't be able to benefit from dueling by the RAW, though I suspect many DMs would still allow it. But the bare-handed monk is only wielding one weapon, and it's not a two-handed weapon (if it was, he wouldn't be able to hold weapons at all). Thus, he can benefit from dueling if he has it.

[Shadow]

@mikemearls dueling fighting style: yay or neigh to unarmed strikes and the monks martial arts?

@eerongal the book response is no. Doesn't break anything if you allow it, though.

https://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/dueling-unarmed-strikes/

The key word is "wielding" in this case.
You aren't wielding your hand, so you aren't wielding an unarmed strike, so duelist does not work by the RAW.

[Giant2005]

You aren't wielding your hand
Yes you are.
Look at the definition of wielding: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wielding?s=t) to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively.

We know that in 5e Unarmed Strikes are considered a weapon (see weapon tables), so simply substituting that data for weapon makes a very true statement with respect to Monks: to use an unarmed strike effectively; handle of employ actively. Unarmed Strikes wield just as effectively as any other weapon, although due to the definition of "Wielding" I'd suggest that you need proficiency (Which Monk provides).

[Shadow]

Yes you are.
Look at the definition of wielding: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wielding?s=t) to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively.

Or, conversely:
defined as to hold and use (https://www.google.com/search?q=wield&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8), and you aren't holding your own hand.
And apparently the designer(s) use that definition, because he clearly stated that the book answer is No.

[odigity]

Wow, such utter nonsense.

Look, you can interpret and house-rule however you like, but don't pretend Dueling works with Monk by any stretch within RAW.

The whole reason they worded Dueling the way they did was so that you couldn't throw it on top of each attack when two-weapon fighting, or when using a two-handed weapon. They want you to choose a path -- less attacks with a bigger weapon (maul), or more attacks with small weapons (short sword, unarmed strike), or more damage with less attacks on a less big weapon (Dueling + rapier).

You can try to argue that it makes sense to allow it because it's more fun / doesn't break the game, but to act as if I'm totally wrong for pointing out that it's completely wrong by RAW is just lunacy.

[Giant2005]

Wow, such utter nonsense.

Look, you can interpret and house-rule however you like, but don't pretend Dueling works with Monk by any stretch within RAW.

The whole reason they worded Dueling the way they did was so that you couldn't throw it on top of each attack when two-weapon fighting, or when using a two-handed weapon. They want you to choose a path -- less attacks with a bigger weapon (maul), or more attacks with small weapons (short sword, unarmed strike), or more damage with less attacks on a less big weapon (Dueling + rapier).

You can try to argue that it makes sense to allow it because it's more fun / doesn't break the game, but to act as if I'm totally wrong for pointing out that it's completely wrong by RAW is just lunacy.

You can't dual-wield unarmed strikes. It either qualifies for Dueling or nothing at all.


Or, conversely:
defined as to hold and use (https://www.google.com/search?q=wield&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8), and you aren't holding your own hand.
And apparently the designer(s) use that definition, because he clearly stated that the book answer is No.

Fair enough. Fighters don't really have much of anythign to offer to a Monk (Although I'm not sure I know of a DM that would agree with Mearls on this one - all weapon options should qualify for at least one Fighting Style imo.).

[odigity]

You can't dual-wield unarmed strikes. It either qualifies for Dueling or nothing at all.

I never said anything about dual-wielding unarmed strikes. You must have misunderstood me.


Fair enough. Fighters don't really have much of anythign to offer to a Monk (Although I'm not sure I know of a DM that would agree with Mearls on this one - all weapon options should qualify for at least one Fighting Style imo.).

As a fan of trying to squeeze synergy and value out of multiclassing, I feel your pain. However, if I'm being fair, I think perhaps it's right that no fighting styles work for Monk. The Monk's fighting style is Martial Arts, which they already get. All the Fighter's fighting styles are about enhancing a weapon/shield style combo, none of which do or should apply to the Monk.

A quick comparison to illustrate the fairness: Anyone can two-weapon fight, which grants an extra attack as a bonus action, but they have to use light weapons (1d6 max), and they don't get to add their ability modifier to damage with the bonus action attack. The Fighter can choose the Two-Weapon Fighting style to make up for the second (add ability modifier to damage), and anyone can take the Dual Wilder feat to help with the first (non-light weapons), which really only adds +1 avg (upgrade 1d6 to 1d8).

The Monk, on the other hand, gets a bonus action attack *with* ability modifier added from the beginning, and while the base damage starts at 1d4 (like TWF with a dagger in off-hand), it eventually improves to 1d10, one degree better than what even someone with Dual Wielder gets.

Hence what I mean by "Martial Arts *is* the fighting style".

Now, you could dip Fighter and pick up Great Weapon Fighting to reroll 1s and 2s on your quarterstaff attacks, which is not terrible. You'll be making 1-2 of them per round (2 as of 5th level), which is about half your attacks. I don't think it's worth dipping just for that, but it certainly provides *some* value. Archery is also not a waste, if you're a bow-wielding Monk. I did that in 3.5, since I never had to waste time putting my bow away in order to melee because unarmed strike doesn't require it. If you love multiclassing so much, you can even dip some Rogue on top of that Fighter and be running around sneak-attack-bow-shooting from short range at any one foe adjacent to an ally. But I digress...

[Person_Man]

On a related note, I really don't understand why people multi-class to pick up a quick +2ish to AC or damage or whatever. Is a minor bump to some number really worth delaying and/or giving up your access to mid-high level class abilities. Is something like Fighting Style more valuable then something like Evasion? And even then, every class gets respectable or high AC/damage/etc eventually - its just that some classes get it a few levels sooner then others.

[Z3ro]

https://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/dueling-unarmed-strikes/

The key word is "wielding" in this case.
You aren't wielding your hand, so you aren't wielding an unarmed strike, so duelist does not work by the RAW.

The game doesn't define "wielding", unfortunately. In fact, there's not even anything in the PHB about what an unarmed strike is, unlike 3.5 which specified you could use any part of the body. Heck, by RAW, you could find a +3 "unarmed strike" weapon, as there's nothing in the rules that distinguishes it from any other weapon.

ETA:


On a related note, I really don't understand why people multi-class to pick up a quick +2ish to AC or damage or whatever. Is a minor bump to some number really worth delaying and/or giving up your access to mid-high level class abilities. Is something like Fighting Style more valuable then something like Evasion? And even then, every class gets respectable or high AC/damage/etc eventually - its just that some classes get it a few levels sooner then others.

In my case, yes, it was worth it. I multi-classed my monk at level five to ranger for three levels, then back to monk. Those levels (2 and 3) of ranger made my character noticeably more powerful than straight monk would have, especially with regards to damage.

[Easy_Lee]

On a related note, I really don't understand why people multi-class to pick up a quick +2ish to AC or damage or whatever. Is a minor bump to some number really worth delaying and/or giving up your access to mid-high level class abilities. Is something like Fighting Style more valuable then something like Evasion? And even then, every class gets respectable or high AC/damage/etc eventually - its just that some classes get it a few levels sooner then others.

I think it's largely an attempt to play the game different from the way the developers intended. Playing a pure class is boring for some; but multiclassing and getting some form of optimization out of it is fun. On the whole, I agree that multiclassing usually gives up too much to be worth it. High level abilities, and delay to those abilities, are both too important this generation for there to be much use in multiclassing.

Certain multiclass options, like a an assassin/barbarian or a shadow monk/rogue or a warlock/sorcerer or paladin/sorcerer or warlock/bard, really do have huge benefits. But most multiclassing is probably not worth it

[Giant2005]

shadow monk/rogue
I hear of that combo a lot but I don't really understand why? Is it for thematic reasons? Because that I could understand - pretty much any class with the word "Shadow" in its name sounds pretty awesome next to Rogue.
But mechanically, I can't see a lot of synergy. There is a lot of overlay in abilities (Ki/Cunning Action) that don't stack and Unarmed Strikes can't trigger sneak attacks so even their primary damage mechanisms are mutually exclusive.

[Easy_Lee]

I hear of that combo a lot but I don't really understand why? Is it for thematic reasons? Because that I could understand - pretty much any class with the word "Shadow" in its name sounds pretty awesome next to Rogue.
But mechanically, I can't see a lot of synergy. There is a lot of overlay in abilities (Ki/Cunning Action) that don't stack and Unarmed Strikes can't trigger sneak attacks so even their primary damage mechanisms are mutually exclusive.

Basic reason is to max out your stealth capabilities. Pass without trace and shadowstep combined with reliable talent and expertise (stealth) creates what's probably the sneakiest character currently possible.

[Giant2005]

Basic reason is to max out your stealth capabilities. Pass without trace and shadowstep combined with reliable talent and expertise (stealth) creates what's probably the sneakiest character currently possible.

Fair enough. I'd probably prefer to get Pass Without Trace via other means over a Shadow Monk myself. You could get it from only two levels rather than three via Druid or Trickery Cleric and the Druid's ability to Wildshape adds a lot more to the Stealth abilities and the Cleric's ability to give advantage to a friend means you could bring one along without him fumbling and giving away your position. Both abilities make for better choices than the Monk imo. I think I'd even prefer to use 5 levels of Ranger over 3 levels of Monk in order to get Pass Without Trace even though the level requirement is even higher. Giant Killer is an absolutely awesome ability for a Rogue - Large creatures are relatively common and an easy reaction against them means an easy second sneak attack each round.

[Z3ro]

I hear of that combo a lot but I don't really understand why? Is it for thematic reasons? Because that I could understand - pretty much any class with the word "Shadow" in its name sounds pretty awesome next to Rogue.
But mechanically, I can't see a lot of synergy. There is a lot of overlay in abilities (Ki/Cunning Action) that don't stack and Unarmed Strikes can't trigger sneak attacks so even their primary damage mechanisms are mutually exclusive.

Shadow jump gives advantage on the first attack, hence qualifying for sneak attack.

[odigity]

I hear of that combo a lot but I don't really understand why? Is it for thematic reasons? Because that I could understand - pretty much any class with the word "Shadow" in its name sounds pretty awesome next to Rogue.
But mechanically, I can't see a lot of synergy. There is a lot of overlay in abilities (Ki/Cunning Action) that don't stack and Unarmed Strikes can't trigger sneak attacks so even their primary damage mechanisms are mutually exclusive.

The only overlap is:

1) Monk's Step of the Wind vs Rogue's Cunning Action; however:
- that's only one of four abilities you get at Monk 2
- the other three are useful (Unarmored Movement, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense - which is Dodge, which CA doesn't give you)
- the third part of Cunning Action isn't given to Monk (Hide as a BA), and CA's Dash/Disengage is strictly better than Step of the Wind, so you're still happy to get Monk 2 AND Rogue 2, regardless of which order, because either way you're getting some useful (better to Dash/Disengage without spending Ki points)

2) Evasion; which is why you either stop at Rogue 6 or Monk 6, for a 6/12/2 (Warlock) or 6/14 build

Unarmed Strikes can trigger sneak attacks under probably 99% of DMs. For one thing, it's simply mean and stupid to not allow it. For another, it is well-supported within RAW than Unarmed Strike can count as a melee weapon attack:
- it's listed in the weapons table
- the Monk's Stunning Strike ability is worded "When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack...", and only a person totally divorced from all sense of perspective would argue that Monk's weren't intended to be able to Stunning Strike with their Unarmed Strike...

[Giant2005]

Unarmed Strikes can trigger sneak attacks under probably 99% of DMs. For one thing, it's simply mean and stupid to not allow it. For another, it is well-supported within RAW than Unarmed Strike can count as a melee weapon attack:
- it's listed in the weapons table
- the Monk's Stunning Strike ability is worded "When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack...", and only a person totally divorced from all sense of perspective would argue that Monk's weren't intended to be able to Stunning Strike with their Unarmed Strike...

It isn't the weapon part that is the issue, it is the Finesse or Ranged part. I have only ever asked one DM whether he would allow it and he told me no so maybe I was unlucky enough to find that 1%.

[Person_Man]

In my case, yes, it was worth it. I multi-classed my monk at level five to ranger for three levels, then back to monk. Those levels (2 and 3) of ranger made my character noticeably more powerful than straight monk would have, especially with regards to damage.

Can you elaborate on this and/or show the math?

I'm away from books at the moment, but IIRC Ranger 1-3 gets Favored Enemy, Fighting Style, a couple of 1st level spells, and your first subclass ability ability. Yes, I can see how they would probably add a nifty pile of damage (I'm guessing +9ish average damage when everything applies).

But the Monk's Ability Score Increase or Feat could increase your damage by at least +1. You're giving up 3 points of Ki that could be used to fuel Flurry that can increase damage by 1d8ish+5, which has the benefit of being restored by Short Rests (unlike Long Rest Ranger spells). I think you might also get a bump/progression to Unarmed Damage or movement speed, though I'm not sure. At the very least, you're not delaying your access to future improvements in unarmed strike damage, movement, Evasion, Stillness of Mind, and your very significant 11th level subclass ability and 14th level Diamond Soul.

So to me, it looks like the damage issue is basically a wash, or will be in a few levels once your Unarmed Strike damage would have increased and your Ki pool becomes large enough that you're basically using Ki abilities for something every combat.

Having said that, I can see why you'd make the decision if your DM rarely uses effects that would apply to Evasion or Stillness and commonly uses encounters that involve your Favored Enemy and Hunter subclass choice. I'm just not sure the damage math holds up.

[Z3ro]

Can you elaborate on this and/or show the math?

I don't know about math, but I'll definitely elaborate:

First, do note that my DM allowed me to using dueling style on unarmed strikes, so it was +2 to all attacks. Secondly, we rolled stats, so by this point I already had a 20 Dex. That being said, I essentially missed out on 3 Ki, evasion, stillness of mind, and a feat. The feat would have been nice (probably alert), but not really necessary. We never fought anything with magic resistance, so the magic strikes never would have come into play. Also, my unarmed damage would have been the same regardless of level.

I was open hand, so the 3 ki, will helpful, would only have meant one extra attack three times per short rest. I gave that up, but let me cast hunter's mark (or other spells, but almost always hunter's mark) 3 times per day, netting much higher damage than the extra attacks. This was especially useful as I rarely had to make a concentration save, as the barbarian always used reckless attack, meaning she was targeted the most often. In addition, dueling style added damage to every attack, bonus or not, adding up quickly.

I lost out on the defensive abilities, but I think I was only caught in one fireball and never the subject of a charm spell. A bit lucky, maybe, but those abilities never really came up.

It is important to note that I always prefer more damage when available. I would almost always trade defense for offense, which is essentially what I did here. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it worked out very well for me.

(here's an attempt at math: assuming 3 ki points means 3 extra attacks, my attacks (should they hit) do an average of 10.5 damage. That means for each ki point, I need 5 hits factoring in dueling style, or two with hunter's mark. This was very easy to achieve))

[Xetheral]

Having two bonus attacks is obviously more effective than one and there will be plenty enough of them that you can spam it constantly - when you deal as much damage as this combination does, most encounters tend to last only one or two rounds which means with 6 monk levels, you have enough Ki points for 3-6 encounters per short rest which is more than enough.

That's going to depend a lot on DM style. When confronted with particularly powerful characters, many DMs will ramp up the difficulty, extending the encounters closer to a "normal" length, and suddenly you have Ki problems again. This can be implemented poorly as an (indirect) nerf to the character, but it can also be done well by not-quite-fully-compensating (thus letting the PC's strength still shorten combat) and also by increasing the IC importance of the now-more-difficult encounters (i.e. because you're more powerful, you have a greater impact on the world around you than your level would suggest). Of course, as discussed in another thread, some DMs won't compensate for character strengths when encounter building, so your ki use assumption will indeed be valid in some games.


Damage-wise, it is the most powerful combination in the game, each round it gets a sustained 2(2D6+1D8+10) + 2(1D8+11) damage plus the opportunity for 4 smites for burst damage if required and it gives up very little to do it.

(Emphasis added.) I'm going to quibble with your description of the build's damage as "sustained". Even if the DM doesn't adjust combat encounter difficulty, the build still relies on a sharply limited pool of ki per short rest, and a sharply limited pool of smites per long rest. I think "sustained" is usually used in the context of arbitrarily-long encounters, against which this build rapidly loses much of its strength. Not to denigrate the build--it does indeed look quite powerful--but I'd classify it as a Nova build, even though it has noticeably more staying power than other competitive Nova builds that do their damage in fewer rounds (e.g. smite builds with Action Surge and/or Assassin).


It is the best martial multi-class in the game.

Here I'm going to quibble again. It's certainly a good build, and very competitive in terms of potential damage dealt. More fleshed-out it might even be number one at some levels depending on how one chooses to measure damage (e.g. taking into account hit chance, rate of enemy disposal vs encounter size/length, damage-as-damage-mitigation, etc.). But like any build it's a tradeoff: flurry of blows, smite, and improved smite are quite potent, but other synergistic martial class features like rage, reckless attack, feral instinct, action surge, combat superiority, fighter extra attack, horde breaker, volley, and assassinate offer comparable benefits that tweak the balance between survivability, number of attacks, hit chance, and potential damage.


On a related note, I really don't understand why people multi-class to pick up a quick +2ish to AC or damage or whatever. Is a minor bump to some number really worth delaying and/or giving up your access to mid-high level class abilities. Is something like Fighting Style more valuable then something like Evasion? And even then, every class gets respectable or high AC/damage/etc eventually - its just that some classes get it a few levels sooner then others.

Given that I tend to harp on about how little a +1 difference makes in the scheme of things, I agree that multiclassing for a small numerical bonus by itself probably isn't worthwhile. That being said, I still see several reasons to do it:


Those numerical bonuses tend to come along with low-level features that can be just as good as the higher-level features they're delaying. Fighting Style may not keep up with Evasion, but the combination of Fighting Style and Second Wind (not to mention being one level closer to Action Surge) might.
Because numerical bonuses are rare, a character build optimizing a certain value (whether for fluff, player style, or mechanical reasons) has little choice but to multiclass to grab the bonuses that do exist. It might not be optimal, but it's still reasonable.
Earlier access to an ability that defines a character concept might well outweigh delaying useful but less concept-focused abilities. True, numerical abilities are usually less concept-important, but if the concept hinges around being "the best" in a particular niche, it might still be worthwhile.
Delaying an important feature such as Extra Attack for a level or two might seem like a terrible cost, but I don't think it's as extreme as commonly believed. For example: a character with a source of bonus action attacks who delays Extra Attack for two levels is losing 1/3 of their potential attacks for each round they'd take the attack action over those two levels. If the delay was to pick up Reckless Attack by level 2, then for those two levels without Extra Attack the character gets potential advantage on 2 attacks per round, instead of 3 attacks without advantage. That seems like a reasonable trade by itself... until one considers that most of the value of possessing Reckless Attack from level 2 is that it applies to all the other levels too when you aren't short on attacks at all. (This one is slightly off-topic as a reply to what you wrote, since it doesn't deal with small numerical bonuses, but you've previously emphasized the importance of getting Extra Attack on-time, so it still seems relevant.)

[Giant2005]

(Emphasis added.) I'm going to quibble with your description of the build's damage as "sustained". Even if the DM doesn't adjust combat encounter difficulty, the build still relies on a sharply limited pool of ki per short rest, and a sharply limited pool of smites per long rest. I think "sustained" is usually used in the context of arbitrarily-long encounters, against which this build rapidly loses much of its strength. Not to denigrate the build--it does indeed look quite powerful--but I'd classify it as a Nova build, even though it has noticeably more staying power than other competitive Nova builds that do their damage in fewer rounds (e.g. smite builds with Action Surge and/or Assassin).
Yes, in hindsight I think I will agree with this.
I have never actually played the build and my thoughts were based off ignorance and frankly, stupidity. My experiences with Monk have been playing one that is level 5 IIRC and he has been able to Flurry to his heart's content without running out during his career and I stupidly translated that to the Paladin having more Ki should be able to do the same. I hadn't considered that a high level Paladin would likely be fighting enemies with more HP and therefore require more Ki to relatively do the same job as my level 5. You are right in that it probably isn't anywhere near sustained and those Ki would probably run out within two encounters.

[numerek]

Damage-wise, it is the most powerful combination in the game, each round it gets a sustained 2(2D6+1D8+10) + 2(1D8+11) damage plus the opportunity for 4 smites for burst damage if required and it gives up very little to do it. Unless you roll extremely well, you will be giving up a little bit of Monk utility due to being limited to effects that have no save or effects that target weak saves of your enemy but offensively and defensively you stand alone at the peak of perfection. You can match a Fighter's peak AC of 21 while having more heals via Lay on Hands and Wholeness of Body and better non=physical defenses via Evasion, Aura of Protection and Aura of Courage.

And if you just went dueling you would be doing 4(d8+d6+12)=80 vs 2(2d6+d8+10) + 2(1D8+11)=74 even if you don't agree on dueling you can use a quarterstaff 2 handed and it would be 74 vs 74 and dexterity is a more useful stat and the damage will be more evenly spread. You also still get 3 attacks if you run out of ki. You could still bring your greatsword around and if you need to use your bonus action for something else. and you don't really need armor with 20 dex and 14 wis gives you 17 ac just 1 less than full plate I'm not sure where you are getting 21 ac, I understand the +1 from defensive but where are the other 2 coming from, if your not doing dueling its possible your dm would allow defensive fighting style without armor. If you still really need to wear full plate then the requirement is only 2 str above the multiclass requirement.