What are common, efficient ways to deal with wraiths and incorporeals ?

[unbutu]

I'm looking for battle tactics for your usual cleric-rogue-bard-warrior or similar party, that adventures here and there, but might someday fall into those things.

I ask because my party got a very hard time with those, recently. The party is composed of Bloodrager, Fighter (shield), Wizard, Cleric. The party is currently level 7

We got 2 encounters in a row while playing Slumbering Tsar Saga. I guess it's our bad for sleeping in the desert at night. (We should just sleep into a rope trick, but in character, not everyone can be convinced to jump in)

So long story short, we will very likely be attacked during the night again by Wraiths and Dread Wraiths. What would be good ways to win those battles with minimal constitution lost to touch attacks ?

Up to now my toughts:

1: Spam magic missile (It's pretty steady damage, but I don't kill them as fast as they kill my team)
2: Ghost Touch weapons are expensive...
3: If I could raise my team's defense quickly. (Casting mage armor on everyone takes years. Bear's endurence does not give that much to Fortitude save compared to the DC, and it's a wasted slot otherwise.)
4: I'm the only arcane spellcaster, and the cleric does not cast CC much at all. So I need to be prepared for that, but for everything else as well.

[Sayt]

The Spell Ghostbane Dirge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/ghostbane-dirge) is very handy spell for getting damage on the wraiths. Halt Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/halt-undead) Might be handy if it's in your book. Stalwart Resolve (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/stalwart-resolve) will make it easier to keep making your Fort Saves.

Mage Armor and Shield are force effects so both apply against incorporeal touch attacks.

[Firest Kathon]

If the cleric channels positive energy, he can also damage the wraiths. They take full damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-) from that (or half if they pass the save):

Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy).
If he channels negative energy, maybe he has taken the Command Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/command-undead---final) feat. Otherwise, depending on your levels, a cure spell can also help (though the wraiths take only half damage from it). O spam Spiritual Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spiritual-weapon). And of course Magic Circle against Evil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-circle-against-evil) for a quick +2 to AC for all.

[Larsen]

Ask your cleric to cast death ward (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/death-ward) It helps a lot !

[Psyren]

Rant 1:



We got 2 encounters in a row while playing Slumbering Tsar Saga. I guess it's our bad for sleeping in the desert at night. (We should just sleep into a rope trick, but in character, not everyone can be convinced to jump in)

Whoever is choosing not to sleep in safety, leave their stupid *** outside to die. Incorporeal creatures are extremely difficult to detect before they get the jump on you because they can opt to move without a sound, so simply keeping watch is not guaranteed to help, and dread wraiths in particular are especially nasty.

I don't care how distrustful a character is of magic (even magic used by allies) - there are limits to the stupidity even an adventurer should be willing to tolerate and expect to survive past low levels.

Rant 2:


So long story short, we will very likely be attacked during the night again by Wraiths and Dread Wraiths.

I don't know if your DM is actively trying to TPK you or what, but a single Dread Wraith is CR 13. That's a pretty tall order for a level 7 party, and he is apparently sending multiples of them at you, along with regular wraiths, while you're sleeping (which is unfavorable conditions for you, making the CR even higher.) At level 7 you are likely woefully ill-equipped to handle a DC 23 Fort Save.

So before I offer any more advice, I'd like to be certain I read the two points above correctly or if I might be mistaken.

[Miscast_Mage]

Some mundane ways of handling incorporeal undead are Ghost salt weapon blanch (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Weapon-Blanch)(coat a weapon or ten pieces of ammo so that they can hit and deal full damage to incorporeal undead), holy weapon balm (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons#TOC-Holy-Weapon-Balm)(deal extra damage to undead, weapons get treated one step better(non-magic to magic, magic to ghost-touch) vs incorporeals, but it only lasts a minute per application), and spirit firecrackers (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/weapons/alchemical-weapons#TOC-Firecracker-Spirit)(deal some damage to incorporeals, and can blind light sensitive ones). Of course, holy water is always the classic stand-by.

Unfortunately all of these assume you can get to a shop, which doesn't seem to the case here. :smallfrown:

Your cleric should be able to harm the undead with channel positive energy and cure spells. There's the spell Empower Holy Water (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/e/empower-holy-water), but surprisingly it's not a cleric spell. :smallconfused:

A note that Mage Armour (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/m/mage-armor) and Shield (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/s/shield) both give +4 AC which are called out as protecting against Incorporeal touch attacks. If your wizard has the spare spell slots, shield and armour on himself for +8 AC, armour on anyone else for +4 AC against incorporeal touch attacks.

One last thing, magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures, but for half damage; I assume your fighter should have a magic weapon at this point.

Also, special mention for Alarm (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/a/alarm); it calls out that ethereal and astral creatures don't trigger it, but has no mention of incorporeal. It at least gives you a heads up if wraiths are inbound.

[unbutu]

Wow there was a lot of replies. Here we go:

Ghost salt and holy weapon balm: Those seem much better for ranged attackers than melee. Using a standard to get 1 ghost touch attack is meh, but firing 10 ghost touch projectiles seems good enough. That will be excellent on our cleric-archer, she attacks a lot with her bow.

Channel positive Yes, our cleric channels positive, but her archetype makes it weaker unfortunately. We actually looked for the rule to see if it would deal full damage, and we tought it was half. Know that we know that would have been full, that might have changed the battle tough.

Magic Weapon Yes, the Bloodrager, Shield fighter, rogue all have magic weapons. The Bloodrager did like 50 (100) damage on the Dread Wraith fight, but received 1 too much hit when trying to withdraw after he saw his constitution plummet. ( He was hit 3 times for 7 con drain, he had 22 con while raging. He died after the rage went out.)

Rants x2
Well, that's pretty much just opinions you've said, nothing to add. Only that I'm expecting more of those because the DM rolls on slumbering tsar's random encounter table, and he gave us a hint that there is a lot of those in the desert, where we need to be for a while. He offered to cancel the results of the fight, because he felt, like you , that it was unfair. It's gonna be decided by the party after the holidays. (The guy who died is fine with it, so we will likely keep going.)

Stalwart Resolve
Would be really good, but since the wraiths do a drain effect it would not apply ?

Magic Circle against Evil
A great find. I completely forgot I can cast that on the whole party at once. This is a great spell.

Shield, Magic Armor, Death Ward
By the time I would have cast that on the frontline, the battle would be finished. Those battles end so fast. In 3 rounds it did 3d8 (21) con dmg to the barb and 4d8 (16) con dmg to the fighter. I don't have enough time to cast those. Maybe if the cleric is casting death ward first, then it's only HP dmg, and we get much more time ?

Ghostbane Dirge
This one I'm not sure to understand. So the difference would be:
1: No difference for attacks
2: Spells don't get the 50% miss chance anymore ?

--------------------------------------------

Thanks for all those suggestions. I'll be able to implement a few once we get to the Camp. (next session, we were almost there)

[Sayt]

Assuming your dealers only have normal magic weapons because you mentioned the cost of ghost touch), they will deal 50% damage. Casting ghostbane dirge ups that to 100% of your damage, functionally doubling your damage, and putting the wraiths down faster so they do less damage.

[Miscast_Mage]

Ghost salt and holy weapon balm: Those seem much better for ranged attackers than melee. Using a standard to get 1 ghost touch attack is meh, but firing 10 ghost touch projectiles seems good enough. That will be excellent on our cleric-archer, she attacks a lot with her bow.

Yeah, blanches and similar things in PF are incredibly bias towards archers; one greatsword = one dagger = ten arrows. I usually play archers, but my alchemist wants to make these for the rest of the party in our home game and not have the melee feel like they're being discriminated against. :smallannoyed:

One way around it(and my party are currently having trouble with ghosts, so I'll suggest this to my own group), is that you can use arrows or crossbow bolts as poor improvised daggers (-4 to hit, 1D4, only crits for /x2 on a 20), but ten "disposable" daggers for melee is at least another option, if only getting one application for a melee weapon stings too much.

A funny rule with the Ranged Tactics Toolbox coming out now, is with the Spear Sling, (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/spear-sling) meaning you can technically treat spears as ammo now, possibly in regard to blanches/enchantments(wonky rules are wonky), but as both a player and a GM, this veers into "ripping my hair out" territory, and I wouldn't seriously suggest or recommend it.

Speaking of your cleric-archer, Raining Arrows (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-raining) are extremely good for undead, though for incorporeal you might need some dirty tricks; apply ghost-salt/holy balm to the arrows so they can actually hit, then you've got arrows which deal damage as a normal arrow(that link there is ambiguous, but the reprinting in the Alchemy Manual is much more well worded, as it specifies dealing damage as normal arrow, plus the holy water), on top of a direct-hit holy water(as part of rapid shot/iteratives, too), as well as either ghost-salt or holy-balm(or both; there's no ruling that says you can't!) for extra damage to help with hitting.

An arrow that deals normal damage(so things like Deadly Aim and Point Blank Shot apply), + 2D4(and splashes) as holy water, plus +2D4 and a possible +1D4 the next round from Holy Balm, topped off with Ghost Salt to confirm they'll hit, all at a -2 penalty to hit and 53 GP a shot. Do note that Holy Balm only lasts a minute per application, so you'd have to apply it just before a fight.


Shield, Magic Armor, Death Ward
By the time I would have cast that on the frontline, the battle would be finished. Those battles end so fast. In 3 rounds it did 3d8 (21) con dmg to the barb and 4d8 (16) con dmg to the fighter. I don't have enough time to cast those. Maybe if the cleric is casting death ward first, then it's only HP dmg, and we get much more time ?

Mage armour at the least is something you can have up ahead of time; at an hour per level, casting it before you go to bed should be an appropriate precaution. A Lesser Rod Of Extend (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-extend) is only 1,500 gp and can be used three times on level 3 and lower spells if duration is still dodgy. Shield is definitely still an in-combat/right-before-combat buff though.

Oh, and for recovering after the fight, Soul Stimulant (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Soul-Stimulant) can help with negative levels though is a little pricy, Ambrosia (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Ambrosia) can buff you up a bit before a fight, and potions(only a standard to drink) or scrolls(three rounds to cast as the spell) of Restoration(or Lesser) (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/r/restoration) may come in handy. Fun note, Lesser Restoration is a level one spell for Paladins, meaning you could technically get a scroll of it for 25 GP, a potion for 50 GP, or a wand of fifty charges for 750 GP. It does not help with the GM throwing the core rulebook at you, however. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Rants x2
Well, that's pretty much just opinions you've said, nothing to add. Only that I'm expecting more of those because the DM rolls on slumbering tsar's random encounter table, and he gave us a hint that there is a lot of those in the desert, where we need to be for a while. He offered to cancel the results of the fight, because he felt, like you , that it was unfair. It's gonna be decided by the party after the holidays. (The guy who died is fine with it, so we will likely keep going.)


https://www.chrisstucchio.com/pubs/slides/helpshift_2014/your_opinion.png

Of course it's my opinion, it's a forum :smalltongue:

What is not my opinion, however, is that a single CR13 enemy (much less more than one) is a pretty tall glass of water for a APL7 party with 4 members.