Running the low tier party in FR

[hymer]

Greetings, wise and combative playgrounders!
I shall soon be running a 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign, starting from level 2. So far, the players have thrown into the party mix: 2 paladins, 1 rogue, 1 marshal, and 1 gestalt warlock/scout (who will be starting at level 1 and gradually fall further behind until he is permanently two levels behind to compensate for the gestalt).
The paladins get a bit of a boost by house rules and by heading for a strong homebrew prestige class, so they are not tier 5. But still, there is not a single full caster among them so far, and I have no reason to think there ever will be. The players with the capacity for optimization are not prone to use it, so this will generally be low-to-medium optimization.
Fortunately, the realms I intend to run is one of considerably reduced power level. There will be few (if any) double digit NPCs for the PCs to interact with, and the whole thing will be similarly powered down. My original thought was to let the campaign power level rise at a somewhat slower pace than the PCs, but with this group I'm beginning to wonder what the future will hold. I'm guessing the early levels will be fine. I'm more worried about mid and higher levels.

So, dear playgrounders, any advice on how to handle a group of mostly tier 4s (I'm used to at least two full casters in the group)? Internal balance shouldn't be a big deal (though the marshal should probably get some help, advice on that is also appreciated). All thoughts, comments, ideas, suggestions, etc. are appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Gnome Alone]

I've always thought the Marshal would be a lot better if it had a faster progression of just knowing its auras. Like, maybe even know all of them and switch them out when needed. And the actual progression could be being able to keep more auras up at a time. I dig the Marshal; much like the Scout, it is mundane class with an interesting mechanic/schtick, and I kinda think both of those classes represent typical fantasy archetypes better than a lot of other ones do (someone wanna tell me what the unholy mess that is the Ranger is supposed to be about?)

Speaking of Scouts, I do find it a little confusing that there's a gestalt warlock//scout in the party. Those seem like two of the best classes that anyone's using in the party anyway, unless this homebrew paladin is just the bee's pajamas or something. What's the story behind that?

EDIT: As per your actual question, my only advice is: careful not to melt and/or brain-melt them all with spells.

[hymer]

@ Gnome Alone: Thanks for replying!
I agree with you that about the marshal's fluff potential. I'm hesitant to outright boost the class, mostly because it hasn't been announced in the house rules, unlike the boosts to, say, the paladin. I didn't think anyone would want to play marshal. Well, my bad, there. I may end up boosting it anyway, but I hope I can find more elegant solutions - I don't want the player to feel like I'm giving him training wheels (or someone wishing they had chosen the improved marshal).

The scout//warlock is our resident munchkin (if we have one - anyway, it's the player who I have to spend the most time arguing with and who feels the most put upon - and also the spotlight hog of the group if we have one), who I've banned from playing things he can't understand or keep straight. He is under the impression that the scout's skirmish and eldritch blast are way powerful. So last campaign (which ended rather abruptly for RL reasons) I suggested he gestalt those two, and he loved it. It plays to his tastes, I guess. And it's simple enough that he can build a character that gets more rules right than wrong, which his full casters tend not to.

Yeah, go easy on the spells and magic. :smallbiggrin: But this is FR after all. There's only so much you can do without losing the flavour.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The published enemies aren't exactly high-op, not even in FR. FR just has a lot of high level NPCs, but that's only a problem if you want to have your party come up against enemies significantly over their CR anyway.

If you're worried about the parties lack of utility casting i'd suggest steering the paladins towards Champions of Valor. Sword of the Arcane Order, From Smite to Song, Mystic Fire Knight and Harmonious Knight do quite a bit to improve paladin power. Also let them have a look at the various other ACFs like Divine Spirit. That gets paladins from a weak T5 to a low-to-solid T3, which should be enough for most games.

Another option is to get the rogue interested in Unseen Seer (if he's actually open to playing a caster). You can get almost full rogue skillpoints on an almost full progression wizard with that, so it's solid no matter how you look at it. The PrCs various class abilities are pretty nice too.
For a divine variant there is also Complete Adventurers Shadowbane Stalker which isn't quite as good but still playable. You've already said you're open to homebrew so i'd consider changing it to 10/10 casting progression if your player is interested in the concept.

All that obviously assumes that your players are interested in improving their character concepts. If they don't you'll just have to adjust encounters accordingly, though from what i've seen at least in published adventures the assumed level of optimization is pretty low to nonexistent.

[hymer]

The published enemies aren't exactly high-op, not even in FR. FR just has a lot of high level NPCs, but that's only a problem if you want to have your party come up against enemies significantly over their CR anyway.

Thanks for all the thoughts!
Well, NPCs are rarely detailed in FR products (it's more like 'LE hm Wi8'). The PCs are bound to run afoul of Zhentarim magelings and Red Wizards aplenty (in addition to miscellaneous spellslingers), and those would be constructed by me. I can dumb them down, I guess, but hardly without it being noticed by the players that these guys are a lot less efficient than they're used to.


If you're worried about the parties lack of utility casting i'd suggest steering the paladins towards Champions of Valor. Sword of the Arcane Order, From Smite to Song, Mystic Fire Knight and Harmonious Knight do quite a bit to improve paladin power. Also let them have a look at the various other ACFs like Divine Spirit. That gets paladins from a weak T5 to a low-to-solid T3, which should be enough for most games.

The paladins' power is going to be ok, but they won't be Mystra worshippers, and won't be going the caster route there. This group will take weeks to travel from Suzail to the Moonsea no matter their level. Their freedom and ability to act will be severely curtailed. They will eventually get the hang of dealing with invisible opponents, but they will be in trouble with enemies who teleport, go ethereal, lob longlasting status-effects at them, buff themselves, etc. They'd be in real trouble against 'mere' trolls, having no obvious way to shut down their regeneration. It's not that they'd always be in over their heads, but the odds are rather stacked against them. If they can't figure out ways to do what a lot of spells would do easily, they will be inches from death a lot of the time. Or, at least, this is my worry, not having run with this sort of group before.


Another option is to get the rogue interested in Unseen Seer (if he's actually open to playing a caster). You can get almost full rogue skillpoints on an almost full progression wizard with that, so it's solid no matter how you look at it. The PrCs various class abilities are pretty nice too.
For a divine variant there is also Complete Adventurers Shadowbane Stalker which isn't quite as good but still playable. You've already said you're open to homebrew so i'd consider changing it to 10/10 casting progression if your player is interested in the concept.

I may be able to do that. Getting some good arcane casting on the side, even some levels down, would do much to help them. Here's hoping the player will be ok with that idea. And won't be much absent.


All that obviously assumes that your players are interested in improving their character concepts. If they don't you'll just have to adjust encounters accordingly, though from what i've seen at least in published adventures the assumed level of optimization is pretty low to nonexistent.

I'm not using published adventures (other than stealing the occasional thing), but I'm rather worried that there are a lot of iconic FR monsters and NPC types that will be hard or impossible for the PCs to deal with.

[jedipotter]

Well, NPCs are rarely detailed in FR products (it's more like 'LE hm Wi8'). The PCs are bound to run afoul of Zhentarim magelings and Red Wizards aplenty (in addition to miscellaneous spellslingers), and those would be constructed by me. I can dumb them down, I guess, but hardly without it being noticed by the players that these guys are a lot less efficient than they're used to.

In general, most foes should not be super high op. Most should be ''average'' or even ''below average''. And this is very true of your typical Zhent or Red Wizard foe. The whole reason they are out in the Thunder Peaks leading a bunch of orc thugs is they are not so great mages.

So a lot of them should be ''poorly built'', by optimization standards. So the wizard might have feats like Persuasive and Negotiator. Take 3rd level Vanda, she has Persuasive, Negotiator and Street Smart..and then just a couple random enchantment charm spells only. She is the perfect leader of a band of orc thugs, but she sure is not a super high op TPK mage.



I'm not using published adventures (other than stealing the occasional thing), but I'm rather worried that there are a lot of iconic FR monsters and NPC types that will be hard or impossible for the PCs to deal with.

You can always reduce monsters using the rules in the MM. And it's easy to simply make monsters ''half strength''.

And it's always possible to play a foe as ''not too smart''. Just watch and movie or TV show.

[hymer]

@ jedipotter: You make sense. It's not perfect, but it's sensible, which is better than anything else I have right now. Thanks!

[Malroth]

The optimized casters are off on their own personal demiplanes made of solid gold attended to by Succubi simulacra while they plan out their contigency-chess battles vs other optimized casters, Meanwhile in normalville Enemy Sorcorers take fireball and hang out with a group of bandits because fire is neat.

[hymer]

@ Malroth: Thanks for your input.

[(Un)Inspired]

Isn't the main character of Forgotten Realm like an elf TWF ranger or something? I thought the default power level of that setting was extremely low.

[Gnome Alone]

I hear-tell no one's been able to make Drizzt half as competent as he is in the books.

But anyway, I also hear-tell that everyone and their drunken mother is like a 20th level wizard in Forgotten Realms. Super-powered NPCs. So I hear.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Isn't the main character of Forgotten Realm like an elf TWF ranger or something? I thought the default power level of that setting was extremely low.

Eberron is the low powered setting. FR is extremely high powered (as measured by NPC levels) up to and including epic casters.

[Greenish]

Isn't the main character of Forgotten Realm like an elf TWF ranger or something? I thought the default power level of that setting was extremely low.FR has epic casters behind every every rock.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah but don't they canonically have really stupid spell prepared?

[Malistrae]

FR does have a lot of epic spellcasters, however, I don't think they make regular campaigns unfeasible. Why? Because the setting is just so big and most epic people are active only in certain regions. For example, you probably aren't going to encounter the Twisted Rune's epic liches outside of Calimshan. Szass Tam isn't going to appear in Amn to wipe out your party. The same for the good guys. I wouldn't expect Eliminster in Samarach. Also, even with teleport- and divination-shenanigans, they aren't omnipresent and omniscient. Even if the party is interrupting Zhentarim operations, Fzoul Chembryl is likely to be too busy to deal with the party personally. Most evil epic casters are usually far too paranoid to personally go out and hunt down adventurers. They might send minions and set up traps, but they will only engage in personal combat as a last resort. After all, what if the party is just a bait by Khelben Blackstaff to lure the villain into an ambush? Also FR epic NPCs are not well known for their optimization.
Therefore, I would say you are unlikely to face problems with a low-tier party, except if your players do something really stupid (like attacking Zhentil Keep or Thaymount). Though, if you are really worried about the lack of casters, just use some non-caster-heavy villain organizations. Lords of Darkness is a great tool for this. There is a bajillion amount of non-magical thief-groups, evil merchant leagues, anti-human alliances, etc. that you can use as villains.

[hymer]

Therefore, I would say you are unlikely to face problems with a low-tier party, except if your players do something really stupid (like attacking Zhentil Keep or Thaymount). Though, if you are really worried about the lack of casters, just use some non-caster-heavy villain organizations. Lords of Darkness is a great tool for this. There is a bajillion amount of non-magical thief-groups, evil merchant leagues, anti-human alliances, etc. that you can use as villains.

Thanks for the suggestion. It's not entirely on stable ground, though. For one thing, the campaign area was determined pretty early, and a Zhentarim bid to march in force somewhere (depending a lot on what the PCs do) is part of the backbone of the first campaign arch. But more importantly, I'm pretty sure the players would be disappointed if there were no or few wizard foes. It wouldn't be FR without them.
I guess I'll have to go little by little and try to be extra careful not to overwhelm them. They're more likely than ever to be unable to extricate themselves (and of course they'll do something really stupid.:smallwink:).

[Malistrae]

Thanks for the suggestion. It's not entirely on stable ground, though. For one thing, the campaign area was determined pretty early, and a Zhentarim bid to march in force somewhere (depending a lot on what the PCs do) is part of the backbone of the first campaign arch. But more importantly, I'm pretty sure the players would be disappointed if there were no or few wizard foes. It wouldn't be FR without them.
I guess I'll have to go little by little and try to be extra careful not to overwhelm them. They're more likely than ever to be unable to extricate themselves (and of course they'll do something really stupid.:smallwink:).

Perhaps trying to steer them towards a more subtle approach would be more beneficial. The Zhentarim is after all, one of the most dangerous, numerous and well-connected organizations in Faerun. Reading their Lord of Darkness entry, the zhents seem to favor three operations: smuggling, raiding caravans, and agitating local monster populations. If the players focus on hampering the Zhentarim's operations, instead of trying to bullrush their outposts and bases (which should be near-suicidial at their tier if you want to remain faithful to FR), their continued success and survival would be much more believable, and allow you to slowly build up the challenge, as the the higher-ranked zhents become aware of the players' meddling.
Even mages can be easily inserted this way. Caravan raids presumably involve arcane support and the monster-agitation is apparently done by zhent casters according to the book. This allows you to insert some lesser mages here-and-there, without overwhelming the players. Zhentarim mages are also mentioned to be insanely ambitious and callous, therefore you could easily make several zhent mages each other's rivals, struggling for a promotion over their peers, instead of super-efficient bffs. This would further lessen the burden on the party, by allowing them to outteamwork zhent mages and use their rivalry for the PCs' benefit.

[Arbane]

o (someone wanna tell me what the unholy mess that is the Ranger is supposed to be about?)

Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Back in AD&D days, Rangers were pretty much literally "Aragorn, the Class". They've branched out a bit since then.


Isn't the main character of Forgotten Realm like an elf TWF ranger or something? I thought the default power level of that setting was extremely low.

The optimization level of the splatbooks for the Realms is pretty low, but the power level is canonically silly high. IIRC by the books, Elminster has a higher CR than Cthulhu. :smalleek:

[facelessminion]

Elminster has a higher CR than Cthulhu. :smalleek:

In all fairness, Elminster's clawed his way out of hell before, while Cthulhu got downed by some chode with Weapon Focus: Boat.

[(Un)Inspired]

In all fairness, Elminster's clawed his way out of hell before, while Cthulhu got downed by some chode with Weapon Focus: Boat.

Hey! Show some respect! That's Second Mate Chode to you mister!

[Gnome Alone]

Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Back in AD&D days, Rangers were pretty much literally "Aragorn, the Class". They've branched out a bit since then.

I'll have to look up the AD&D Ranger. I don't doubt that what you say is true, because Aragorn is definitely the obvious place to look at for an explanation of why a class flat-out called "Ranger" is whatever it is... but all I can think is, "Oh right, remember Aragorn's two swords and wolf companion he was always fighting with?"

[(Un)Inspired]

I'll have to look up the AD&D Ranger. I don't doubt that what you say is true, because Aragorn is definitely the obvious place to look at for an explanation of why a class flat-out called "Ranger" is whatever it is... but all I can think is, "Oh right, remember Aragorn's two swords and wolf companion he was always fighting with?"

I believe Legolas is Aragorn's animal companion.

[Gnome Alone]

I believe Legolas is Aragorn's animal companion.

Welp, that quite literally made me laugh out loud. Extended snickering anyway.

[hymer]

@ Malistrae: Thanks much for the input!