Questions about sneak attack strat with stealth and sniping

[Mel]

What would the stealth penalty to go into stealth be with 20% coverage?

From cover or concealment, (magical or natural) you can make a stealth attempt, right? Even while being observed?

So instead of taking a -20 on stealth, trying to restealth right away after taking a sniper shot (which works with magical attacks too, right?) If I was shooting/casting spells from cover, couldn't I attack from stealth, get sneak attack, then if I fail to restealth or want to move, allow myself to be seen and unstealthed, then next turn, I could move 5 feet or how ever many is required for stealthing, (you stealth while moving, right?) attempt to go back into stealth, then attack again with another sneak attack. This way I may be vulnerable during enemy turn, but I could regularly get sneak attack from AT each turn if I attacked with a bit of coverage. I could even use a permanent illusion as cover.

Wouldn't this work? Or what do I have wrong?

P.S. Put this in its own thread because it was so elaborate and might entail further discussion.

[Psyren]

What would the stealth penalty to go into stealth be with 20% coverage?

There is no penalty. Either you have cover/concealment and can try to hide, or not and not.


From cover or concealment, (magical or natural) you can make a stealth attempt, right? Even while being observed?

No - even if you are concealed, you cannot stealth while being observed. You must first create a diversion to hide (see the Bluff skill), break line of sight somehow (generally, by attaining total cover or total concealment i.e. invisibility), or have an ability that lets you hide while being observed like Hide in Plain Sight or Hellcat Stealth. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth)



So instead of taking a -20 on stealth, trying to restealth right away after taking a sniper shot (which works with magical attacks too, right?) If I was shooting/casting spells from cover, couldn't I attack from stealth, get sneak attack, then if I fail to restealth or want to move, allow myself to be seen and unstealthed, then next turn, I could move 5 feet or how ever many is required for stealthing, (you stealth while moving, right?) attempt to go back into stealth, then attack again with another sneak attack. This way I may be vulnerable during enemy turn, but I could regularly get sneak attack from AT each turn if I attacked with a bit of coverage. I could even use a permanent illusion as cover.

See above - you cannot stealth while being observed. Basically what the sniping rules allow you to do is attack and return to stealth too quickly for your target to observe you. If you don't use them (or try to use them and fail), then your target will get a chance to spot you and you will need to use one of the methods above before you can stealth again relative to that person.

[Mel]

If someone or something else is attacking the target, or the target is attacking something else, am I being observed?

If I am standing out of line of site, like being behind someone, am I being observed?

You seem to be contradicting yourself, let me quote you


concealment could be used to make a stealth check vs. creatures on the same side of the wall as you.

This was in reference to a wall that provides 20% concealment.


Generally a spell that grants concealment or cover let you attempt stealth unless it specifically says otherwise.


Lets use some other examples, like Blur or the Arcanist exploit, Shadow Veil. They don't specifically say you can't attempt stealth. So you should be able to attempt to stealth when under these.

But your other statement about only when not being observed contradicts this.

BTW, could I conjure up a silent image of a wall or some other large mass, and fire spells behind it with 100% coverage for snipping? Since they can't see me, wouldn't all my attacks be sneak attacks?

[sideswipe]

If someone or something else is attacking the target, or the target is attacking something else, am I being observed?

If I am standing out of line of site, like being behind someone, am I being observed?

You seem to be contradicting yourself, let me quote you


This was in reference to a wall that provides 20% concealment.



Lets use some other examples, like Blur or the Arcanist exploit, Shadow Veil. They don't specifically say you can't attempt stealth. So you should be able to attempt to stealth when under these.

But your other statement about only when not being observed contradicts this.

BTW, could I conjure up a silent image of a wall or some other large mass, and fire spells behind it with 100% coverage for snipping? Since they can't see me, wouldn't all my attacks be sneak attacks?

that is like saying "it doesn't say i cannot attempt to fly underwater"
blur shows exactly where you are. you are just a bit fuzzy. so you are not really concealed.

invisibility is not actually a guaranteed concealment, it gives you a stupid bonus to hide and basicly hide in plain sight. it is completely negated (except miss chance) with a stupidly good spot. the miss chance is not the concealment, breaking line of sight is.

so if you have a miss chance you cannot necessarily hide. you need to break line of sight.

BTW, these are not quoted rules and i do not claim they are. what they are is a simplified version of the way rules are written and interact.

[Psyren]

You seem to be contradicting yourself, let me quote you


This was in reference to a wall that provides 20% concealment.

I'm not seeing the contradiction. The base rules are that you need two things to hide:

1) Cover or concealment
2) Not being observed

Nothing I said contradicts that. It seems you thought I was saying "even if someone on the same side of the wall as you is observing you, you can hide" - which I did not say at all.


Lets use some other examples, like Blur or the Arcanist exploit, Shadow Veil. They don't specifically say you can't attempt stealth. So you should be able to attempt to stealth when under these.

You can - if you're not being observed. Does that make sense now?


BTW, could I conjure up a silent image of a wall or some other large mass, and fire spells behind it with 100% coverage for snipping? Since they can't see me, wouldn't all my attacks be sneak attacks?

Yes, you can hide behind a silent image - but once you start casting spells from behind it, two things happen - (a) you will likely be making a lot of noise (verbal components require a strong voice) so they will observe you and you lose your ability to stealth, and (b) the spells coming out of it will give your victims good reason to suspect the wall may not be real. At a minimum they would get to roll disbelief, and depending on the spell you used, they might have "proof the illusion is fake" and not need to roll at all. Either way, if they recognize the wall's true nature, it becomes transparent to them and you no longer have cover.

[Mel]

that is like saying "it doesn't say i cannot attempt to fly underwater"


Generally a spell that grants concealment or cover let you attempt stealth unless it specifically says otherwise.

And to boot, there are very few mainline spells that offer coverage.

I'm struggling with understanding most of your post sideswipe, and I lack the time and energy to figure it out.

[sideswipe]

^ what i said but much better lol


ooops to slow

[Mel]

Well if I made the illusionary wall with a dark opening to shoot out of, then they would have no direct reason to disbelieve it. If I used illusionary sound to cover up my casting (and illusionary sound can be made to be very loud) then they can't hear me (or I could use a silent feat) Ghost sounds is a cantrip, and is as loud as 4 people per caster level up to 40 people loud. I put that over enemies head at max volume and my being some distance away, no way they could hear me casting spells.

So if they can't see me, or hear me, can they really observe me?

Theres a spell that allows me to summon a burning ball (and one for another element) to roll over everything as I will it. It says indirect stuff like summoning a creature to attack doesn't break lesser invisibility, would that rolling ball of fire, break lesser invisibility?

Also this wasn't answered


If someone or something else is attacking the target, or the target is attacking something else, am I being observed?

If I am standing out of line of site, like being behind someone, am I being observed?

[Psyren]

Well if I made the illusionary wall with a dark opening to shoot out of, then they would have no direct reason to disbelieve it. If I used illusionary sound to cover up my casting (and illusionary sound can be made to be very loud) then they can't hear me (or I could use a silent feat) Ghost sounds is a cantrip, and is as loud as 4 people per caster level up to 40 people loud. I put that over enemies head at max volume and my being some distance away, no way they could hear me casting spells.

So if they can't see me, or hear me, can they really observe me?

We're getting into DM adjudication territory, which is common for illusions, but there are some other things to consider:

First, Ghost Sound can be disbelieved too, and with no obvious source for all the noise they would likely get a roll there - plus GS itself has a verbal component, so you would have to silence your casting of it, or cast it before they got in earshot.

As for the "dark opening," that's also a DM call - but if any of your enemies has darkvision and they still can't see in, they would be obliged to wonder why and likely get a roll.

On top of all that there is smell, if any of your enemies has scent, and blindsense/tremorsense etc.


Theres a spell that allows me to summon a burning ball (and one for another element) to roll over everything as I will it. It says indirect stuff like summoning a creature to attack doesn't break lesser invisibility, would that rolling ball of fire, break lesser invisibility?

I assume you mean Flaming Sphere? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flaming-sphere) That will break invisibility because once you roll it over an enemy, then "its area or effect will include a foe" by defintion.

(I'm not sure what you mean when you say "lesser invisibility." Do you mean Vanish? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish))


Also this wasn't answered


If someone or something else is attacking the target, or the target is attacking something else, am I being observed?

If I am standing out of line of site, like being behind someone, am I being observed?

Yes and yes. Generally creatures in combat are paying attention to their surroundings - there is no "facing" in D&D/PF, and "observing" can be done with all 5 senses. In addition, standing behind a creature in addition to causing you to still be visible, does not even give you cover - it gives you soft cover at best.

[Mel]

I assume you mean Flaming Sphere? That will break invisibility because once you roll it over an enemy, then "its area or effect will include a foe" by defintion.

It says in the book that you can attack indirectly, for example summoning a monster and having it attack, without breaking invisibility. Why would flaming sphere be any different? It's like a summon you control, so invisibility etc should be preserved.

BTW, I was just saying lesser invisibility as opposed to greater invisibility.

[Darrin]

It says in the book that you can attack indirectly, for example summoning a monster and having it attack, without breaking invisibility. Why would flaming sphere be any different?

RAW (Rules As Written) and Common Sense are not exactly on speaking terms.

[Psyren]

It says in the book that you can attack indirectly, for example summoning a monster and having it attack, without breaking invisibility. Why would flaming sphere be any different? It's like a summon you control, so invisibility etc should be preserved.

BTW, I was just saying lesser invisibility as opposed to greater invisibility.

I quoted the relevant portion for you above, but you may have missed it. Here it is again:


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

Rolling a flaming sphere over your enemy is "including them in the effect." Summoning a creature is not, because even if the creature attacks them, they are still separate from the effect (i.e. the creature.) In other words, creating the sphere will not make you visible, but directing it to damage someone will.

Make sense?

[Amphetryon]

Note that, by default, standing directly behind a person does not give you cover or concealment from that person, as the game assumes everyone has the capacity for vision in all directions. I do not know if this is what you meant by your 'standing behind someone' example, but thought it might be a useful clarification.