[PF, DSP] How is the Marksman balanced?

[Extra Anchovies]

After taking a look at the Marksman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman), it seems like it massively overshadows any other class that tries to do archery at a table where DSP is allowed. With the Finesse style and Favored Weapon, you get +10 to hit above and beyond your full BAB, and that's in competence and circumstance bonuses (leaving room for insight, enhancement, luck, etc), enough for you to use Deadly Aim and not even care about the to-hit penalty. The numbers on this class just look too big for there to be any reason to play an archery-focused Slayer, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc. Where's the limiting factor? I feel like there is one (I have generally good faith in DSP), but can't find it.

[Snowbluff]

You know that caster archers are especially strong, right? Like, "I hit for 6 times my CL" kind of strong?

[Extra Anchovies]

You know that caster archers are especially strong, right? Like, "I hit for 6 times my CL" kind of strong?

Well, yeah. T1s are T1s, blah blah blah. I'm asking about why this class doesn't make the other martial archers obsolete, and I think I made that pretty clear in my post ("any reason to play an archery-focused Slayer, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc." is not a sentence that implies a comparison to T1 archers).

[Feint's End]

I don't think it's all too bad to be honest. They hit pretty well and have some nice tricks up their sleeves but nothing overly broken. I think of them as solid archers and not as a replacement for other classes.

If you want to have an archer who makes most others obsolete (and uses psionics) then do the following:
3 levels zen archer / 3 levels soulknife / 10 levels soul archer / 1 level psychic warrior / 3 levels dark tempest

This build gives you:
- +10 mind blade usable in both melee and ranged
- wisdom to hit and damage in both ranged and melee and you get it to ac too
- ability to full attack against touch ac every round for the messily cost of 3 pp (hustle to regain focus)

This build is way above marksman

Edit: another thing to consider is the classes you are comparing it to. I don't think of slayer, ranger or inquisitor as necessarily being top pics from a pure damage perspective.

Better to compare to zen archer, divine hunter paladin and gunslinger ... those all seem to be on par from my perspective

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't think it's all too bad to be honest. They hit pretty well and have some nice tricks up their sleeves but nothing overly broken. I think of them as solid archers and not as a replacement for other classes.

What do the other (non-full-caster) classes have that keeps them from being fully overshadowed as archers by a Marksman? It's nice to know that Marksman aren't as borked as you can get, but a class with full BAB and native means of constant +10 to hit via uncommon bonuses still seems really strong. Inquisitor can get +6 at average BAB, ranger gets +10 only situationally (Instant Enemy or going up against a favored enemy) at full BAB (and is thus probably the closest), and Slayer gets +5 at full BAB.

[Feint's End]

What do the other (non-full-caster) classes have that keeps them from being fully overshadowed as archers by a Marksman?

See the edit in my last post. I think it's a matter of which classes you compare the marksman to. Ranger are overall more focused on utility, slayers have situation ally more damage and inquisitors are skill monkeys who can do ranged.

[the clumsy bard]

After taking a look at the Marksman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman), it seems like it massively overshadows any other class that tries to do archery at a table where DSP is allowed. With the Finesse style and Favored Weapon, you get +10 to hit above and beyond your full BAB, and that's in competence and circumstance bonuses (leaving room for insight, enhancement, luck, etc), enough for you to use Deadly Aim and not even care about the to-hit penalty. The numbers on this class just look too big for there to be any reason to play an archery-focused Slayer, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc. Where's the limiting factor? I feel like there is one (I have generally good faith in DSP), but can't find it.

I bolded and underlined the relevant part of your post.

Dreamscarred Press has good work, but you always have to factor in that it is 3rd party material. Albeit good 3rd party material. Generally though I imagine it is not playtested extensively to see if it overshadows the paizo only classes.

[Feint's End]

I bolded and underlined the relevant part of your post.

Dreamscarred Press has good work, but you always have to factor in that it is 3rd party material. Albeit good 3rd party material. Generally though I imagine it is not playtested extensively to see if it overshadows the paizo only classes.

Oh it does in many cases overshadow paizos classes. Mainly those which are too weak.

However as I explained before I don't think this is the case with the marksman.

[the clumsy bard]

Oh it does in many cases overshadow paizos classes. Mainly those which are too weak.

However as I explained before I don't think this is the case with the marksman.

Totally agree.

Another issue... well "issue" I guess with marksman is that all their features help ranged attacks and pretty solidly ranged attacks only. Even the gunslinger class gets proficiency with melee weapons.

As far as the other classes go as well. I'd like to point out that marksman gets a lot of advantages to hit while the only damage increasing source you included was a feat they have to take: deadly aim.

Deadly Aim is a fixed reduction to attack bonus accompanied with a fixed bonus to damage based on the BAB of the character.

Other classes get class bonuses to damage, which yes they need to hit the target to get, but when they do it's effects are definitely felt.
Inquisitor -> bane class feature
Slayer -> studied target
Ranger -> favored enemy
gunslinger -> gun training for dex to damage and also can hit touch ac

[Snowbluff]

Well, yeah. T1s are T1s, blah blah blah. I'm asking about why this class doesn't make the other martial archers obsolete, and I think I made that pretty clear in my post ("any reason to play an archery-focused Slayer, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc." is not a sentence that implies a comparison to T1 archers).

Inquisitors and Rangers gets GNB and AA. Sure, it's only x2 CL without some work, but that's before Bane and their other tricks.

[Psyren]

The numbers on this class just look too big for there to be any reason to play an archery-focused Slayer, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc.

You know, I can never understand statements like this. You play those classes because you want to; that's the reason. The fact that a stronger class exists does not mean the Fun Police are going to show up at your house in a black van, snatch your CRB out of your hands, rip the Ranger pages out of it, and hand you a citation.

And on top of that, whether Marksman is truly stronger is debatable. On their own they certainly flatten the ranger's numbers, but the ranger is better at melee and gets a fighter as a class feature which can be equipped and optimized in its own right. With proper optimization (e.g. Instant Enemy and Boon Companion) the DPR for the two can end up pretty close.

Also, keep in mind that if DSP is in play, there are toys there for Rangers and Inquisitors too.

[stack]

The one power that makes all your attacks daze is nasty though.

[Raven777]

3 levels zen archer / 3 levels soulknife / 10 levels soul archer / 1 level psychic warrior / 3 levels dark tempest

What's a Dark Tempest?

[Feint's End]

What's a Dark Tempest?

a prestige class from Ultimate Psionics ... it progresses manifesting and your mindblade

with above posted build you just take it to get 2nd level powers for hustle -> swift action move action so you can restore focus and use fell shot every round (with the 10th level ability of Soul Archer it applies to every attack)

Now you are basically a better Gunslinger damage wise and can melee as well as fighters

[JusticeZero]

The other classes already had crazy to hit. Hitting was never a problem for any archer, ever. Having the target CARE that it was hit is.

[Snowbluff]

Death means they won't be alive to care. Should we do less damage? :smallconfused:

[Ssalarn]

The Marksman is probably the most accurate archer, but that doesn't make him the best archer. Zen Archer, Fighter, Inquisitor, and Ranger all have higher DPR, Sohei is about equivalent, Arcane Duelist Bards are fairly close, and most of those classes have lots of other cool tricks they can stack on top.

Fighter DPR puts the Marksman to shame when Weapon Mastery comes online and auto-crit confirmation kicks in, and he's generally got better AC and resistance to combat maneuvers.

Zen Archer gets way larger base damage die, higher chance to crit and confirm, ridiculous amounts of bonus feats, and some other unique options equivalent to the Marksman's powers.

Ranger gets a built-in progressing mount allowing him to use mounted archery for superior action economy and mobility, and Favored Terrain means he probably has better initiative as well, which can greatly influence a battle.

Inquisitor can stack way more damage onto a given arrow, and Greater Bane + Judgement + 2/3 spellcasting means his accuracy is probably as good or better. He's also an incredible skill monkey and stack extra attacks and bonuses on with the right Teamwork feats.

Arcane Duelist Bards can stack more damage onto each arrow, and not only do their buffs (inspire courage, haste, bladethirst, etc.) get them reasonably close to the Marksman's level of accuracy, but most of those buffs are improving the performance of the entire party simultaneously.

Sohei gets to combine the largest attack routine an archer can pull off with the ability to turn any mount they ride into a kung-fu master, and they get Weapon Training, so they can benefit from Gloves of Dueling.

[Tulya]

As I understand it, the DSP martial classes were meant to be at an out-of-the-box power level comparable to highly optimized core martial classes - like the Aegis compared against a well-built Barbarian - with a smoother progression. That is, as opposed to not getting an essential lynchpin ability until 10th level or higher.

A Lore Warden Fighter is looking at comparable attack and damage bonuses at 15th (+3 untyped, +2 competence = +5 to attack rolls / +3 untyped +2 competence = +5 to damage rolls) to a Finesse Marksman with Deadly Aim active (+4 competence, +4 circumstance, -4 penalty = +4 to attack rolls / +8 untyped = +8 to damage rolls), and the Fighter's still got 4 extra feats to play with over the Marksman. There's no question that the Marksman's manifesting offers more capabilities than those combat feats, but non-caster/non-manifester classes are definitely a niche some people prefer. Rather, what the Lore Warden brings to the table is the capacity to swap to a melee weapon and use combat maneuvers extremely effectively with marginal investment. With a maneuver-capable and finessable weapon, they keep their Dex bonus, their weapon training bonus at -1 effectiveness, their +2 competence bonus, and tack on an untyped +8 bonus from Maneuver Mastery.
An Archer Fighter has access to archery combat maneuvers at a penalty, but can use them freely instead of expending psionic focus. (An expended focus can not be used to satisfy any other focus requirement at the same time, including the Finesse mantra bonus, and requires a full-round action or a feat and a move action to replenish.) While they can't get Know Thy Enemy, they can simply pickup Greater Bracers of Archery for much the same bonus.

The Zen Archer Monk has a ridiculous number of bonus feats and abilities that mimic useful feats, and gets early access on several occasions. At 15th level, Flurry of Blows adds one more attack than Rapid Shot + Manyshot, and at a lower attack penalty, and you can tack on yet another by burning Ki. Alternately, you can spend your ki to improve base arrow damage to 2d10 with a monk's robe. The Volley Style extra attack becomes stackable at this point, but it requires resource expenditure to use multiple times per encounter - the Hustle power and Psionic Meditation feat. The Split Shot ability can further improve your effective attacks per round, though it's a limited resource as well.

I'm not very familiar with Inquisitor and Ranger archery, but my impression is that besides having native abilities and archetypes that can help close the gap as above - including both classes being able to run an animal companion - their spellcasting gives them a great deal more utility than the Marksman could ever bring to the table. Their lists were shaped to be less focused than the Marksman's to begin with, which is compounded by splatbook support.

Edit: Also, there's the simple issue that archery-oriented bracers add Competence bonuses, which reduce the actual advantage of the marksman's Favored Weapon bonus when they become affordable.

[Fax Celestis]

The Marksman is probably the most accurate archer, but that doesn't make him the best archer. Zen Archer, Fighter, Inquisitor, and Ranger all have higher DPR, Sohei is about equivalent, Arcane Duelist Bards are fairly close, and most of those classes have lots of other cool tricks they can stack on top.

Fighter DPR puts the Marksman to shame when Weapon Mastery comes online and auto-crit confirmation kicks in, and he's generally got better AC and resistance to combat maneuvers.

Zen Archer gets way larger base damage die, higher chance to crit and confirm, ridiculous amounts of bonus feats, and some other unique options equivalent to the Marksman's powers.

Ranger gets a built-in progressing mount allowing him to use mounted archery for superior action economy and mobility, and Favored Terrain means he probably has better initiative as well, which can greatly influence a battle.

Inquisitor can stack way more damage onto a given arrow, and Greater Bane + Judgement + 2/3 spellcasting means his accuracy is probably as good or better. He's also an incredible skill monkey and stack extra attacks and bonuses on with the right Teamwork feats.

Arcane Duelist Bards can stack more damage onto each arrow, and not only do their buffs (inspire courage, haste, bladethirst, etc.) get them reasonably close to the Marksman's level of accuracy, but most of those buffs are improving the performance of the entire party simultaneously.

Sohei gets to combine the largest attack routine an archer can pull off with the ability to turn any mount they ride into a kung-fu master, and they get Weapon Training, so they can benefit from Gloves of Dueling.

Hell, even the psywar can hit harder than the marksman, especially with the archer archetype.

[137beth]

Well, they have acrobatics as a class skill, which includes the 3.5 skill 'Balance' as a subability, so clearly they are Balanced:smalltongue:

More seriously, they are meant to be tier three. You said it isn't fair to compare them to tier 1 classes, and that is true. But it also isn't fair to compare them to tier 4-5 classes.

[Feint's End]

Well, they have acrobatics as a class skill, which includes the 3.5 skill 'Balance' as a subability, so clearly they are Balanced:smalltongue:

More seriously, they are meant to be tier three. You said it isn't fair to compare them to tier 1 classes, and that is true. But it also isn't fair to compare them to tier 4-5 classes.

Im actually fairly sure that marksman is t4. Unless you make heavy use of expanded knowledge and find a way to keep wisdom high

Edit: on another note ... t4 is a totally legit tier with great classes. Aegis and soulknife are both there and very effective (though both can get t3 via prcs and right investment)

[Extra Anchovies]

The Marksman is probably the most accurate archer, but that doesn't make him the best archer. Zen Archer, Fighter, Inquisitor, and Ranger all have higher DPR, Sohei is about equivalent, Arcane Duelist Bards are fairly close, and most of those classes have lots of other cool tricks they can stack on top.

Fighter DPR puts the Marksman to shame when Weapon Mastery comes online and auto-crit confirmation kicks in, and he's generally got better AC and resistance to combat maneuvers.

Zen Archer gets way larger base damage die, higher chance to crit and confirm, ridiculous amounts of bonus feats, and some other unique options equivalent to the Marksman's powers.

Ranger gets a built-in progressing mount allowing him to use mounted archery for superior action economy and mobility, and Favored Terrain means he probably has better initiative as well, which can greatly influence a battle.

Inquisitor can stack way more damage onto a given arrow, and Greater Bane + Judgement + 2/3 spellcasting means his accuracy is probably as good or better. He's also an incredible skill monkey and stack extra attacks and bonuses on with the right Teamwork feats.

Arcane Duelist Bards can stack more damage onto each arrow, and not only do their buffs (inspire courage, haste, bladethirst, etc.) get them reasonably close to the Marksman's level of accuracy, but most of those buffs are improving the performance of the entire party simultaneously.

Sohei gets to combine the largest attack routine an archer can pull off with the ability to turn any mount they ride into a kung-fu master, and they get Weapon Training, so they can benefit from Gloves of Dueling.

Hm. Thanks for providing me with this, it's nice to see a class-by-class breakdown of most of the classes I listed (plus a few more). I really do need to try Sohei sometime.