Most Overpowered Races/Templates/Combinations

[atemu1234]

Original Thread Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137331-which-races-do-you-find-overpowered)

Basically just a continuation.

[Extra Anchovies]

Anything with two "half-" templates should not exist, regardless of LA.

Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur Gnome... :smalleek:

[atemu1234]

Anything with two "half-" templates should not exist, regardless of LA.

Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur Gnome Strongheart Halfling... :smalleek:

Fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:.

[Extra Anchovies]

Fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:.

I was going less for OP-ness than for squick, and IIRC gnomes are smaller than halflings.

[sideswipe]

if it hasn't been said... dustform + incarnate construct. rinse and repeat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Most OP race i've seen is probably Athasian Human from Dr#319. Standard human skill points and feat, +2 to any two abilities of your choice and one power each of 1st-4th level from the psion list with free pp to manifest them, at ML = character level. All for +1 LA.

[atemu1234]

Most OP race i've seen is probably Athasian Human from Dr#319. Standard human skill points and feat, +2 to any two abilities of your choice and one power each of 1st-4th level from the psion list with free pp to manifest them, at ML = character level. All for +1 LA.

And with buyoff... mwahahahaha...

[Doc_Maynot]

I think at some point we should address Unseelie Fey. +0 LA and all.

[darksolitaire]

Most OP race i've seen is probably Athasian Human from Dr#319. Standard human skill points and feat, +2 to any two abilities of your choice and one power each of 1st-4th level from the psion list with free pp to manifest them, at ML = character level. All for +1 LA.

was that from Dark Sun setting? I remember all races from there being like that.

[Doc_Maynot]

was that from Dark Sun setting? I remember all races from there being like that.

Yeah, it was from their Dark Sun article, but even compared to the rest it is crazy.

[Necroticplague]

Seems fair enough. The floating stat boni are good, standard human is good, psionics is mediocre. Seems like a decent halfway point between a normal human and a Phrenic human.

[jguy]

For DM use, slapping on the vampire template to a nymph (especially in PF) makes the creature exponentially more deadly than its CR would allow. For more absurdness add two levels of monk. You have a CR 11-ish monster with 40+ AC completely nude.

[Inevitability]

For DM use, slapping on the vampire template to a nymph (especially in PF) makes the creature exponentially more deadly than its CR would allow. For more absurdness add two levels of monk. You have a CR 11-ish monster with 40+ AC completely nude.

Then the wizard, being a proper ECL 11 wizard, simply cast Flesh to Stone at the Nymph. Encounter over.

Failing that, the cleric planeshifts her into the Postitive Energy Plane.

[Threadnaught]

Dragonwrought Kobolds: I know it's a Feat/Race combo, but it's a Kobold only Feat which turns them into Dragons and Dragons get a lot of cool stuff.

Raptorans and Killoren from Races of the Wild if you use the Aging Effects Table in that book. To a lesser extent Catfolk, Gnoll and Centaurs also benefit, but have Level Adjustment.

Dragonborn and Necropolitan are nice for how cheap they are.
Vecna Blooded is decent, Lolth Touched is something I've seen mentioned positively.

And if you can get the buy-off, Saint is awesome for self aware Mary Sue types, even without it, it's still pretty good.

[Necroticplague]

Then the wizard, being a proper ECL 11 wizard, simply cast Flesh to Stone at the Nymph. Encounter over.

Failing that, the cleric planeshifts her into the Postitive Energy Plane.

She's immune to the first (Flesh to Stone targets a creature, doesn't work on objects, isn't harmless, and allows a FORT save), and the positive energy plane doesn't damage her (positive energy trait causes creatures to gain fast healing). Better example would be Disintegrate. Although under Pathfinder (which is required for this, because nymphs can't become vampires in dnd), she'd also have CHA to FORT twice (once because undead use CHA instead of CON for FORT, and again because of her Unearthly Grace) This provides a FORT of +18, not counting base saves.

[jguy]

She's immune to the first (Flesh to Stone targets a creature, doesn't work on objects, isn't harmless, and allows a FORT save), and the positive energy plane doesn't damage her (positive energy trait causes creatures to gain fast healing). Better example would be Disintegrate. Although under Pathfinder (which is required for this, because nymphs can't become vampires in dnd), she'd also have CHA to FORT twice (once because undead use CHA instead of CON for FORT, and again because of her Unearthly Grace) This provides a FORT of +18, not counting base saves.

Also her touch AC is near 40 so a wizard would need to quicken True Strike to just come close to hitting her with the beam. I statted her out as a thought experiment, the normal Vampire Nymph had lowest save at a +19 to will and the monk version's lowest was +27 to will as well. I've never thrown her at a party since it's just too mean.

[sleepyphoenixx]

was that from Dark Sun setting? I remember all races from there being like that.

The other races get fixed psionic powers. Mostly stuff nobody in their right mind would take if they had a choice. Quite a few also give up some abilities of the base race.
A human can pick up a spread like Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Sense Danger & Psychic Reformation, which offers utility that benefits pretty much everyone (and pretty strong utility at that), on top of the already top-tier bonus feat & skill points combo and +2 to any two stats he wants.

LA may seem somewhat arbitrary in some cases but even so, compared to other LA +1 races that's a whole lot of abilities.

[ZamielVanWeber]

if it hasn't been said... dustform + incarnate construct. rinse and repeat.

I always thought this was cool, but never quite understood why it was OP. Doesn't it wipe out most of your racial features?

[torrasque666]

I always thought this was cool, but never quite understood why it was OP. Doesn't it wipe out most of your racial features?
It does, but it also gives you NI STR/CON. So if you're a race with limited useful racial traits(Hi there Elf) you're golden.

[Forrestfire]

Most OP race i've seen is probably Athasian Human from Dr#319. Standard human skill points and feat, +2 to any two abilities of your choice and one power each of 1st-4th level from the psion list with free pp to manifest them, at ML = character level. All for +1 LA.

To be fair, you get them as a progression over 15 levels. The race is actually quite balanced, and worth the +1 LA. One of the few that is, really.

[Shalist]

Black ethergaunt (FF 66) / commoner 1. It's an ECL 5 character (with enough permanent level drain) that, among other things, will probably never have to worry about dire rats in their basement ever again.

[Forrestfire]

Permanent Level Drain cheese is the issue there, not the race...

By that logic, you can be an Atropal with something like 12 class levels (not sure the exact amount of negative LA it has) and be ECL 1.

[sleepyphoenixx]

To be fair, you get them as a progression over 15 levels. The race is actually quite balanced, and worth the +1 LA. One of the few that is, really.

If something is significantly above other options that are equally priced it is by it's very definition not balanced. :smalltongue:

It's one of the few LA +1 races that are worth it even on a spellcaster though, but "worth missing a level in a T1 class" isn't exactly the epitome of balance either for most people.

[Forrestfire]

LA +1 is meant to be balanced against taking a level of a class. Even levels of Fighter, Monk, and Rogue are better than the vast majority of LA +1 races. Ergo, they are underpowered, and the problem, not the one that's roughly even, power-wise, with taking a level in a T3-4ish class. The ones that are about even with taking a level of your chosen class (and getting increased skill point cap, BAB, abilities, feats, and the like) are balanced.

Also, there's no way in hell Athas Human's benefits are worth losing a level in a T1 class. The psionic powers are decent utility and the ability score bonuses are neat, but the spells you'd get are infinitely more useful, and normal human gets the bonus feat and skill points anyway. There are... Actually, I can't think of a single ECL +1 race that's worth losing a T1 class level over without buyoff in play.

Off the top of my head, the only +1 ECL things I'd call broken/overpowered are Half-Minotaur and Dragon Magazine Half-Ogre (for the numbers throwing game balance out of whack for many levels and giving the DM a hard time encounter-building), White Dragonspawn (free Sorcerer level, who thought this was a good idea?), Half-Fey Savage Progression 1 (because Charm Person at-will is also difficult to deal with), Ghost Savage Progression 1 (ditto for Incorporeality and flight), and Feral (because good lord those stats. Same issue as the half-big-things).

[Marlowe]

For DM use, slapping on the vampire template to a nymph (especially in PF) makes the creature exponentially more deadly than its CR would allow. For more absurdness add two levels of monk. You have a CR 11-ish monster with 40+ AC completely nude.

You cannot apply the Vampire template to a Fey.

Except in PF, possibly.

[Necroticplague]

You cannot apply the Vampire template to a Fey.

Except in PF, possibly.

Definitely in Pf, where vampire can be added to any living creature. Makes me want to stat up a vampire ooze for amusement. Certainly gives a new meaning to "blood pudding".

[nedz]

Also her touch AC is near 40 so a wizard would need to quicken True Strike to just come close to hitting her with the beam. I statted her out as a thought experiment, the normal Vampire Nymph had lowest save at a +19 to will and the monk version's lowest was +27 to will as well. I've never thrown her at a party since it's just too mean.

That's also assuming he isn't blinded just for looking at her — which would be another -4 to hit, and a 50% miss chance.

[Marlowe]

Definitely in Pf, where vampire can be added to any living creature. Makes me want to stat up a vampire ooze for amusement. Certainly gives a new meaning to "blood pudding". It's like 3.5 is an inexpertly wound ball of yarn and Paizo is the hyperactive kitten playing with it. And some of us are going "Aw...what a cute kitten" and others are going "Yes. But it's getting stuff tangled in everything!"

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, there's no way in hell Athas Human's benefits are worth losing a level in a T1 class. The psionic powers are decent utility and the ability score bonuses are neat, but the spells you'd get are infinitely more useful, and normal human gets the bonus feat and skill points anyway. There are... Actually, I can't think of a single ECL +1 race that's worth losing a T1 class level over without buyoff in play.


It depends on the class imo. On a druid you'd lose 1 8th & 9th level slot in exchange for picking up some things that just aren't natively available from the druid list. Action economy manipulation via Anticipatory Strike/Sense Danger is a big one, but so can be telepathy powers, tactical teleportation or various utility powers.
I wouldn't say it's strictly better, but it's at least worth consideration if your DM allows the race.

On a wizard it's probably not worth it since they already get all that from their own list. Clerics can benefit, but can get the same stuff from other sources a lot easier.

But almost every class can benefit from picking up a few choice powers, especially for a cost that low.

[Forrestfire]

... Isn't "at least in consideration" the stated design goal of LA races? To neither be something you must have nor something that you give up a lot to get?

Almost every class can benefit just as much from a monk, warblade, swordsage, ardent, cleric, or a few other classes dip (even if, like LA, it's generally suboptimal since it delays PrCs and feats by a level, which is huge for most characters), so I guess that works then.

[LoyalPaladin]

I think at some point we should address Unseelie Fey. +0 LA and all.
What about Vampire Lord (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampirelord.shtml)?

[Brookshw]

Anything with two "half-" templates should not exist, regardless of LA.

Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur Gnome... :smalleek:

Why stop there, let's get some Tauric added to the pile of things that make no sense :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

While we're talking Tauric, Symbiotic is ridiculous for similar reasons. Especially since no metter how many templates you add to the guest, the host's LA is only +1.

[Extra Anchovies]

While we're talking Tauric, Symbiotic is ridiculous for similar reasons. Especially since no metter how many templates you add to the guest, the host's LA is only +1.

Indeed. I'm not sure which is worse: Symbiotic Giant Dvati hosting Young Dvati (only works in 3.PF), or Symbiotic Anything hosting that one undead plant swarm. The latter because it breaks your game, the former because it breaks your DM's mind.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What about Vampire Lord (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampirelord.shtml)?

It is associated with an atrocious +8 template and requires you to have 10 hit dice on top of that. At ECL 18 a vampire lord is no particular threat compared to many T3+ classes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Raptorans and Killoren from Races of the Wild if you use the Aging Effects Table in that book. To a lesser extent Catfolk, Gnoll and Centaurs also benefit, but have Level Adjustment.

*checks book*

Oh, wow, that's quite a typo. Next time I play a druid in a game starting at or above 15th level (Timeless Body), I'm playing a Venerable Raptoran :smallamused:

[ZamielVanWeber]

*checks book*

Oh, wow, that's quite a typo. Next time I play a druid in a game starting at or above 15th level (Timeless Body), I'm playing a Venerable Raptoran :smallamused:

Now I need to know what it says.

[Extra Anchovies]

Now I need to know what it says.

Instead of:

Middle-age: -1 physical stats, +1 mental stats
Old: -2 physical stats, +1 mental stats
Venerable: -3 physical stats, +1 mental stats

Races of the Wild has:

Middle-age: -1 physical stats, +1 mental stats
Old: -2 physical stats, +2 mental stats
Venerable: -3 physical stats, +3 mental stats

[ZamielVanWeber]

Holy balls that are some massive mental stat buffs.

[Inevitability]

It is associated with an atrocious +8 template and requires you to have 10 hit dice on top of that. At ECL 18 a vampire lord is no particular threat compared to many T3+ classes.

Could you take a single level in the template class, then put Vampire Lord on that? That would certainly be better, wouldn't it?

[Forrestfire]

Could you take a single level in the template class, then put Vampire Lord on that? That would certainly be better, wouldn't it?

Nah, you need to have met some conditions to become a vampire lord, including having survived assassination attempts by your spawn. Since you don't get spawn until level 7 of the savage progression, you'd still need a ton of LA.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nah, you need to have met some conditions to become a vampire lord, including having survived assassination attempts by your spawn. Since you don't get spawn until level 7 of the savage progression, you'd still need a ton of LA.

Does it specify "vampire spawn"? If not, there's probably a cheaper way of getting spawn of some sort. No, having kids doesn't count.

[Sam K]

Definitely in Pf, where vampire can be added to any living creature. Makes me want to stat up a vampire ooze for amusement. Certainly gives a new meaning to "blood pudding".

Never mind the combination of templates: that pun alone could wipe out a moderately optimized lvl 12 party!

Not an OP race/template combination, perhaps, but rather creepy: warforged half-anything. I know D&D has some pretty... creative rules for who can mate with what, but this? "When a mommy creation forge and a daddy minotaur love eachother very much..."

[Forrestfire]

Does it specify "vampire spawn"? If not, there's probably a cheaper way of getting spawn of some sort. No, having kids doesn't count.

Actually, I misremembered. It has to have been legit vampires, not even spawn:


They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years, and have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. ... A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status.



Not an OP race/template combination, perhaps, but rather creepy: warforged half-anything. I know D&D has some pretty... creative rules for who can mate with what, but this? "When a mommy creation forge and a daddy minotaur love eachother very much..."

Warforged are made in artifact-level creation forges that can be fine-tuned to spit out warforged with specific traits. Constructs with draconic, celestial, fiendish, etc traits are known to exist and be buildable, as is metal infused with various types of creature essences. It's not a large leap of logic to get from that to "warforged can be built with unique components empowered with dragon/outsider essence/blood/ichor/scales" (also, half-minotaur is only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants).

... Now, if you want creepy, how 'bout the Daelkyr half-blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323220-Creepiness-in-the-Daelkyr-Half-Blood-race)? A race where your human-looking fellow can be called a son of a bitch and have it be correct :smalleek:

[Extra Anchovies]

They each have lived as a vampire for at least 100 years, and have acquired 10 or more class levels or Hit Dice. ... A vampire lord was formerly a vampire under the control of another vampire (not a vampire lord) and has slain its creator. Further, the vampire lord must have created at least 10 vampires and survived an assassination attempt by one of its subjects before achieving vampire lord status.

Hm. Is there some way to create vampires other than by being one?

[Forrestfire]

Sadly, as far as I know, the only way to do so is the Epic Spell Animate Dead seed...

[Vhaidara]

Simple: Get to level 7, make some spawn, get level drained (rez then revamp if needed), and go into Vamp lord.

[animewatcha]

Dragonwrought Kobolds: I know it's a Feat/Race combo, but it's a Kobold only Feat which turns them into Dragons and Dragons get a lot of cool stuff.

Raptorans and Killoren from Races of the Wild if you use the Aging Effects Table in that book. To a lesser extent Catfolk, Gnoll and Centaurs also benefit, but have Level Adjustment.

Dragonborn and Necropolitan are nice for how cheap they are.
Vecna Blooded is decent, Lolth Touched is something I've seen mentioned positively.

And if you can get the buy-off, Saint is awesome for self aware Mary Sue types, even without it, it's still pretty good.

Does Aging have any other implications other than -6 to phys stats and +3 mental to those races? I am not finding within Races of the Wild.

-edit- Talk about a post being late. Still, though where is the table in the book?

[Extra Anchovies]

Does Aging have any other implications other than -6 to phys stats and +3 mental to those races? I am not finding within Races of the Wild.

-edit- Talk about a post being late. Still, though where is the table in the book?

Page 106..

[Necroticplague]

Could you take a single level in the template class, then put Vampire Lord on that? That would certainly be better, wouldn't it?

No, but if you had 3 class levels, you could take one level in the vampire class, then buy it off (template classes increase LA by one), work your way back up to level 3, then repeat until you have the whole template for +0 LA.

[Threadnaught]

Does Aging have any other implications other than -6 to phys stats and +3 mental to those races? I am not finding within Races of the Wild.

-edit- Talk about a post being late. Still, though where is the table in the book?

It's not the most powerful of things, but by the table it's a point for point trade off.

-6 Physical, +6 Mental.

Which surpasses most playable creatures without level adjustment, in terms of overall mental stat modifiers. Raptorans make great Casters thanks to their natural flight and awesome casting stats. They're almost as annoying as Kobolds.
If you can find a way to ignore Aging Penalties, like Druid 15, then even better.

I've got a DM who'll run certain rules provided others also run them, and this is pretty neat, like Swordsage Skill Points at 1st level. Some misprints are just interesting enough to run as written. Even if he doesn't run them, I find them interesting enough to use myself.

[Inevitability]

Hm. Is there some way to create vampires other than by being one?

Polymorph Any Object a few grains of sand into vampires? It doesn't even say they have to exist permanently, just that you have to create them.

PaO 10 vampires, and Diplomance (the easiest way is to have a really low diplomacy modifier) the last one to try and assassinate you. Let it stab you once, then dispel it.

[Forrestfire]

Since Polymorph Any Object works like Polymorph, which works like Alter Self, you can't make anything with a template.

[deuxhero]

No Phrenic+Magic in the Blood love?

[ZamielVanWeber]

No Phrenic+Magic in the Blood love?

At that point do a Phrenic + Half-Fey Savage Progression (after buying off Phrenic) and quickly buy off Half-Fey for a ton of SLAs. Combine with a Cha loving class such a Marshal and you are golden.

[Tragak]

Not an OP race/template combination, perhaps, but rather creepy: warforged half-anything. I know D&D has some pretty... creative rules for who can mate with what, but this? "When a mommy creation forge and a daddy minotaur love eachother very much..." If it helps, I've always thought of combinations like that as being Warforged that were just built to look like "Such-and-such" instead of "Generic humanoid"

...Moving right along, I've always been a fan of Half-Dragon Lizardfolk

ECL +6
+10 STR, +4 CON, +2 CHA
+9 natural armor
Can hold breath for 4*(base CON score + 4) rounds before any risk of drowning, has a +8 bonus to swimming during that time
Reflex save DC for withstanding the daily Breath Attack = 13 + base CON mod

Half-dragons also strengthen the racial HD from the other half of the combination, so sacrificing 3 more class levels for 2 Lizardfolk levels isn't quite as punishing as it would be normally:

Non-templated mundane race:
HP = ECL*(dClass + base CON mod)
skill points = (ECL + 3)*(base Class bonus + base INT mod)

Half-Dragon Lizardfolk - 6 class levels:
HP = 2d10 + (ECL - 6)*dClass + (ECL - 4)*(base CON mod + 2)
skill points = 30 + (ECL - 3)*base Class bonus + (ECL + 2)*base INT mod

Increase:
HP = 2d10 + ECL*2 - 4*base CON mod - 6*dClass - 8
skill points = 30 - 6*base Class bonus - base INT mod

Furthermore, the classes that suffer the most from HP penalties (the melee front-liners who are supposed to have large CONs and dice) would be the classes that benefit the most from +10 STR and +9 natural armor.

… Going back to Sam's point, the idea of a Half-Dragon Lizardfolk also seems to bother people less than does the idea of a Half-Dragon mammal.

[Threadnaught]

Furthermore, the classes that suffer the most from HP penalties (the melee front-liners who are supposed to have large CONs and dice) would be the classes that benefit the most from +10 STR and +9 natural armor.

Assuming 18 in all stats for your Dragon Lizard and the poor Schmuck up against your Dragon Lizard.
Frontline Melee right? Let's go with Warblade, because I like the cut of that guy's jib.

So ECL7 for either, Dragon-Lizard Warblade 1, vs Human Warblade 7.

HP.
Dragon Lizard: 37.5
Human: 73.5

To Hit.
Dragon Lizard: +12
Human: +11

Damage.
Dragon Lizard: +9
Human: +4, +8 when flanking

AC, no armour.
Dragon Lizard: 23
Human: 14

Reflex Save.
Dragon Lizard: +8
Human: +10

Feats.
Dragon Lizard: 2
Human: 5

The differences are very small at ECL 7, but in terms of overall power and survivability, the Human has more.

[atemu1234]

I'm still a fan of Dragonborn Water Orcs. +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 all mental stats? On perhaps a warblade? I'd say hell yeah.

[Jowgen]

I would just like to point out that there is the Monstrous Vampire Template in Ghostwalk, which is 3.5 legal and allows the very same Fey-shenanigans as PF does; although it gets a bit mushy as to whether they can vampire lord.

[LoyalPaladin]

I would just like to point out that there is the Monstrous Vampire Template in Ghostwalk, which is 3.5 legal and allows the very same Fey-shenanigans as PF does; although it gets a bit mushy as to whether they can vampire lord.
I want to play a vampire so bad. But that LA is crazy... even with a buyoff...

[Necroticplague]

Gheden is pretty open to abuse as a template. LA1, provides immunity from nonlethal while retaining a CON score. A favorite of "unkillable" builds because you can combine it with regeneration for less resoucres than than normally required.