Pit Party

[mister__joshua]

While browsing the Monster Manual I was looking over the Pit Fiend, a CR20 creature. Ignoring the obvious roleplaying hurdles (and the fact that it's just silly), purely mechanically is there a better option for a level 20 party than True Polymorphing everyone into Pit Fiends? They are massively versatile creatures.

Lots of resistances, advantage on all saves, Ac19, 300 hit points, flying, 4 melee attacks a round, spell like abilities including fireball at will...

Just theorycrafting. There don't seem to be any mechanical negatives, certainly for the martials.

[Eslin]

While browsing the Monster Manual I was looking over the Pit Fiend, a CR20 creature. Ignoring the obvious roleplaying hurdles (and the fact that it's just silly), purely mechanically is there a better option for a level 20 party than True Polymorphing everyone into Pit Fiends? They are massively versatile creatures.

Lots of resistances, advantage on all saves, Ac19, 300 hit points, flying, 4 melee attacks a round, spell like abilities including fireball at will...

Just theorycrafting. There don't seem to be any mechanical negatives, certainly for the martials.

For the most part, yes, it's the best option, especially considering once they die out pops a full HP character with all their abilities unused. Don't only go for pit fiends though, some of the level 20 dragons are fun thanks to legendary saves, legendary actions and lair actions - not as strong in terms of attacks as a pit fiend, but interesting versatility.

[Shining Wrath]

AFB and trying to remember the CR for the Solar - believe it was greater than 20, but if not, I think a Solar takes down a Pit Fiend.

Small rooms might cramp the style (you should pardon the expression) of 5 Pit Fiends traveling together.

[mister__joshua]

AFB and trying to remember the CR for the Solar - believe it was greater than 20, but if not, I think a Solar takes down a Pit Fiend.

Small rooms might cramp the style (you should pardon the expression) of 5 Pit Fiends traveling together.

Solars are 21, but I think for playability the pit fiend is better anyway. The solar does look much cooler though.

[MadGrady]

For the most part, yes, it's the best option, especially considering once they die out pops a full HP character with all their abilities unused. Don't only go for pit fiends though, some of the level 20 dragons are fun thanks to legendary saves, legendary actions and lair actions - not as strong in terms of attacks as a pit fiend, but interesting versatility.

Lair actions should only be available to creatures who have been in a location long enough for the magic/power/essence/whatever to impact the area. Polymorphing into a dragon should not automatically turn the cave they are dungeon crawling through into their "lair."

Legendary actions though? **** yeah they get those lol

[Shining Wrath]

Solars are 21, but I think for playability the pit fiend is better anyway. The solar does look much cooler though.

I think a Solar walks into a bar and everyone bows in awe, while a Pit Fiend walks into a bar and everyone runs screaming for the guard, who in turn run screaming for the army, who in turn run screaming for the palace wizard, who in turn says "Shazbot!" and sends an urgent message to the nearest party of high level adventurers.

Which is to say, role playing factors ought to make the Pit Fiend a poor choice. It's like the necromancer with his horde of skellebros - RAW it works, practically speaking there's a dozen clerics of Pelor outside who'd like to have a word with you.

[Slipperychicken]

If people get used to a pack of pit fiends as their heroes, then real pit fiends can have a field day with that.

[MadGrady]

If people get used to a pack of pit fiends as their heroes, then real pit fiends can have a field day with that.

This is positively a fantastic plot arc.

Scene: A small country village. It's on fire. People running around everywhere screaming. Several charred corpses line the road

Adventurers arrive and see a commoner just standing there stunned.

"What happened" they ask, to which the commoner replied, "Our heroes, they've always been good people! Then one day they just showed up and went crazy, killing everyone!"

What the commoner doesn't know is that the previous heroes, who had long been known to polymorph into pit fiends, were captured by Asmodeus, and now he has sent actual pit fiends to kill everyone, all in the name of those previous heroes.

[Slipperychicken]

I was thinking more along the lines of having the pit fiends, calculating and charismatic as they are, impersonate the heroes and use their influence to make large numbers of people worship them. Gradually, the pit fiends convince the people to adopt more and more cult-like behaviors and rituals until they're all wearing creepy robes, sacrificing babies on altars, and swearing allegiance to Asmodeus.

Why would they murder all those people when they can, with a bit of time and finesse, convert them into one giant devil-cult?

[mister__joshua]

That didn't stay purely mechanical for long did it :P

Edit: Quoted the wrong post

As I said in the OP though, from a roleplaying perspective it's silly. This was just about finding the most effective fighting form. Always worth knowing in a pinch.

[JoeJ]

Remember that, per Mike Mearls, once True Polymorph becomes permanent you don't change back if you get reduced to 0 hp. So it's not quite as powerful as it appears, although it's still pretty powerful.

[Eslin]

Remember that, per Mike Mearls, once True Polymorph becomes permanent you don't change back if you get reduced to 0 hp. So it's not quite as powerful as it appears, although it's still pretty powerful.

That's weird, I didn't see that anywhere in the spell description for the finished, physical product I bought in an edition based around ease of use.

[JoeJ]

That's weird, I didn't see that anywhere in the spell description for the finished, physical product I bought in an edition based around ease of use.

It's in the spell description, if you read it as natural language instead of law-like rulespeak. All the situations that end the spell are listed in one sentence. The next sentence explains how to keep the spell from ending.

The Sage Advice tweet about this is here (http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/tag/polymorph/).

[Eslin]

It's in the spell description, if you read it as natural language instead of law-like rulespeak. All the situations that end the spell are listed in one sentence. The next sentence explains how to keep the spell from ending.

The Sage Advice tweet about this is here (http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/tag/polymorph/).

I do read it as natural language. Spell turns you into a thing, turn back if dispelled or reduced to 0hp, concentrate for the full hour to turn the duration from an hour to permanent. Nothing in the description implies the methods of removing it stop working just because you changed the duration.

And there's no actual content in what you just linked. Titles and tags, no content.

[JFahy]

Eric Kilbride @Bulletpointe
@mikemearls Question: Does a 'permanent' True Polymorph still end if the target hits 0 hp?

Mike Mearls @mikemearls
@Bulletpointe nope, needs some sort of magical intercession to end it.

[JoeJ]

I do read it as natural language. Spell turns you into a thing, turn back if dispelled or reduced to 0hp, concentrate for the full hour to turn the duration from an hour to permanent. Nothing in the description implies the methods of removing it stop working just because you changed the duration.

You mean other than "permanent" implies not removing it? Or do you read it as ending at the end of an hour even if the caster concentrates that whole time, since "lasts for the duration" and "until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies" are both in the same sentence?


And there's no actual content in what you just linked. Titles and tags, no content.

That's odd. The link works when I click on it. The exchange goes:

"Question: Does a 'permanent' True Polymorph still end if the target hits 0 hp?"

"nope, needs some sort of magical intercession to end it."

[Eslin]

You mean other than "permanent" implies not removing it? Or do you read it as ending at the end of an hour even if the caster concentrates that whole time, since "lasts for the duration" and "until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies" are both in the same sentence?

The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points (or is dispelled, logically). If you concentrate for the duration it becomes permanent, leaving 0hp or dispelling the only way to get rid of it. Seems pretty logical.

[JoeJ]

The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points (or is dispelled, logically). If you concentrate for the duration it becomes permanent, leaving 0hp or dispelling the only way to get rid of it. Seems pretty logical.

But that's not actually the way it's written. More importantly, that's not the way the spell works, according to the devs. If you want to rule it differently in your game, however, you can.

[Eslin]

But that's not actually the way it's written. More importantly, that's not the way the spell works, according to the devs. If you want to rule it differently in your game, however, you can.

I'm up for a debate on how it works RaW, but I gotta head off for now. I'll probably create a thread on it later, happy to be wrong about the wording if I'm wrong about the wording.

[GiantOctopodes]

But that's not actually the way it's written. More importantly, that's not the way the spell works, according to the devs. If you want to rule it differently in your game, however, you can.

It is the way that it is written, though. What is a spell's duration? "A spell's duration is the length o f time the spell persists. A duration can be expressed in rounds, minutes, hours, or even years. Some spells specify that their effects last until the spells are dispelled or destroyed." So if you are saying that the effects "becomes permanent" is not in fact implying a permanent duration (the way I read it), but is rather implying the duration ends, and the effect remains (the only way the arguments you've posited would hold weight that I can see), that would mean the effects also cannot be dispelled. The effects are "permanent" inasmuch that, for all intents and purposes, they are non-magical- not suppressed in an AMF, not able to be dispelled, the creature simply *is* the new form. Though I accept that as a valid means to interpret the rules, I wholly disagree with it, largely because it means that a PC turned into another creature with a permanent duration cannot *ever* be turned back, barring a Wish spell and DM fiat.

I read it *exactly* the same as Eslin did, and not because it's more powerful, but because it's weaker- at least this way, the effect can be suppressed or dispelled. The enemy's assortments of familiars or summoned steeds it turned into perfectly loyal Pit Fiends can be staved off and mowed through with a single AMF, instead of forming an unstoppable threat across the world. I will also point out that Developer Tweets are not the same as rules and do not substitute for them, and I will also point out that the "natural language" way of reading things is a meaningless assertion, especially in a situation where the rule is ambiguous, such as this one.

[Fwiffo86]

I'm thinking this....

Polymorphing anyone into a Pit Fiend results in that pit fiend immediately being conscripted to his now Demon/Devil masters (I'm AFB). Not for standard polymorph, but if you went the permanent version, then BAM, welcome to NPC recurring villainville.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm thinking this....

Polymorphing anyone into a Pit Fiend results in that pit fiend immediately being conscripted to his now Demon/Devil masters (I'm AFB). Not for standard polymorph, but if you went the permanent version, then BAM, welcome to NPC recurring villainville.

/agreed, I think that if you make the effects "permanent" in that they're no longer part of a spell duration, you need to get rid of the "It retains its alignment and personality" line of it.

[JoeJ]

I'm up for a debate on how it works RaW, but I gotta head off for now. I'll probably create a thread on it later, happy to be wrong about the wording if I'm wrong about the wording.

I don't know that a discussion is needed. It doesn't hurt anything if the reading that seems straightforward and common sense to me isn't the same as the one that seems straightforward and common sense to you. I was just pointing out, for the purposes of this thread, what the Sage Advice on this spell is. It's up to the DM whether or not to play it that way at any particular table.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to quote the applicable text here:


Duration: Concentration, up to one hour

... SNIP ...

The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent.

Two separate sentences. The first one describes what happens if you have not yet concentrated for an hour. The second one describes what happens if you concentrate for an hour. The circumstances of the first sentence are not applicable once an hour of concentration has taken place.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm going to quote the applicable text here:



Two separate sentences. The first one describes what happens if you have not yet concentrated for an hour. The second one describes what happens if you concentrate for an hour. The circumstances of the first sentence are not applicable once an hour of concentration has taken place.

I agree with you, actually, the more I've looked at it the more I see the way it is written as describing the duration ending and the effects persisting. But you do get what that means, right? Since you can't at that point dispel or remove the effects, and since you can't polymorph into a specific creature, any PCs so inflicted could *never* return to their previous form (barring of course DM fiat), and all equipment worn (which melded into the form) is thus lost forever. It also means that someone with this spell and a supply of perfectly loyal minions (such as through find familiar or find steed) would be able to create an absolutely *unstoppable* army, as they just *are* CR 20 creatures, with no ability to do anything about that but try to kill them outright. And as Native Outsiders at that point (if you'll excuse the 3.5 term) they can't even be banished, unless I'm missing something.

Edit: What would that even mean, for someone so afflicted? Since their game stats are now that of the new creature, how do you handle XP gain, gaining new class levels, etc? If they then gain class levels to add onto the monstrous form they have taken, how would their class levels interact with the existing proficiency bonuses of the creature whose form they assumed? Really, are you *sure* that's how you want it to work?

[Shining Wrath]

I agree with you, actually, the more I've looked at it the more I see the way it is written as describing the duration ending and the effects persisting. But you do get what that means, right? Since you can't at that point dispel or remove the effects, and since you can't polymorph into a specific creature, any PCs so inflicted could *never* return to their previous form (barring of course DM fiat), and all equipment worn (which melded into the form) is thus lost forever. It also means that someone with this spell and a supply of perfectly loyal minions (such as through find familiar or find steed) would be able to create an absolutely *unstoppable* army, as they just *are* CR 20 creatures, with no ability to do anything about that but try to kill them outright. And as Native Outsiders at that point (if you'll excuse the 3.5 term) they can't even be banished, unless I'm missing something.

Edit: What would that even mean, for someone so afflicted? Since their game stats are now that of the new creature, how do you handle XP gain, gaining new class levels, etc? If they then gain class levels to add onto the monstrous form they have taken, how would their class levels interact with the existing proficiency bonuses of the creature whose form they assumed? Really, are you *sure* that's how you want it to work?

It gets more interesting when you consider that the MM states that if a devil ceases to be Lawful Evil, it ceases to be a devil. So is it even possible for a character who is not LE to become a Pit Fiend? Either your alignment changes to LE, or the whatever-it-is-you-are is not a devil, and hence not a Pit Fiend. A similar reasoning might apply to any fiend or celestial; their alignment is integral to their very existence.

So once your entire party becomes Pit Fiends, do they all become NPCs in the manner of a PC who becomes a werewolf or a vampire? Or does Asmodeus take a personal interest in these goings-on?