What's the one book you wish you HADN'T bought?

[Extra Anchovies]

There's been a number of "which books are good" threads lately, so I thought I'd try something different. What's the one 3.X or Pathfinder book that you have a physical copy of, but that you really wish you hadn't purchased? This includes books received as gifts, because we're allowed to wish that the gifter had spent their money on something else.

For me, it's a 3.0 Psionics Handbook. I got it well after the XPH was out (and, I think, even after 4e was released), but I thought that I'd need the (non-expanded) Psionics Handbook before buying the Expanded Psionics Handbook, because if it has "Expanded" in its title it's clearly an add-on.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I actually like my all books to varying degrees. Complete Psionics does anger me sometimes with its strange decisions and bad editing. I mostly regret not having more books, although I admit managing to get my hands on the 3.0 Players Guide to Faerun was a bit disappointing, since it was long after the 3.5 one had come out, but before I found out that it had some out.

[Renen]

The book that I consider my most interesting purchase, and SOMETIMES wish I never bought: Book of erotic fantasy

[Gnome Alone]

The book that I consider my most interesting purchase, and SOMETIMES wish I never bought: Book of erotic fantasy

But now you know all about the reproductive cycle of oozes!

[Solaris]

Don't buy anything from Avalanche Press.
Just don't.

[AvatarVecna]

But now you know all about the reproductive cycle of oozes!

Mind if I quote this? Maybe it's just me, but I found this line hilarious.

[Gnome Alone]

Mind if I quote this? Maybe it's just me, but I found this line hilarious.

Be my guest. :smallsmile:

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh god definitely the Big Book Of Prolapsed Rectums, it's terrible.

Oh wait, just d20 books? Then I've got to say the white wolf Mask of Red Death 3rd edition book. The flavor for the setting is superb but the editing must have been done by a person with a brain injury.

[ngilop]

Tome of Battle.

[Gnome Alone]

Oh god definitely the Big Book Of Prolapsed Rectums, it's terrible.
"Daw, shouldat least got da abridged version"

[Snowbluff]

"Daw, shouldat least got da abridged version"*shakes head*

You have to go for the full volume. It's a real page turner and a good coffee table book.

[(Un)Inspired]

It was like staring the devil in the eye for a thousand pages.

[Gnome Alone]

Tome of Battle.
Cuz you could have like sixty bucks back?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Cuz you could have like sixty bucks back?

I was thinking something similar, more along the lines of "if you bought it retail it was a decent investment".

I'm perfectly happy with everything I bought retail. I did have a bunch of books I bought in a lot from a friend which included enough blah books that made the lot barely worth the discounted rate I bought them at like a third party hell book, Ghostwalk and 3.0 PHB and DMG.

[jedipotter]

3X Psionic books just yuck, such a waste of time and space to make an ''alternative magic system for no reason''.

I'd say Tome of Battle, but I never bought that horrible book. I did ''own'' one for a minute or so....but it's ashes now.

[Just to Browse]

Monster Manual II. That book was just... just awful.

[Extra Anchovies]

Monster Manual II. That book was just... just awful.

I have to agree, it's been a darn long time since I looked at anything in that book.

[Tvtyrant]

Monster Manual II. That book was just... just awful.

I liked the MMII. There were a lot of great stuff in there, as long as you were willing to re-CR everything.

[Curmudgeon]

Probably Unearthed Arcana, given that most of it's available online, for free. Means it's money I could have spent on another book.

[Emperor Tippy]

Complete Psionics. Considering that it is the only hardback 3.0/3.5 book that I returned to the store.

My current copy was actually a gift from a friend who used to own a bookstore and was otherwise going to be trashed because of damage.

---
Rules Compendium is also in contention. Complete Scoundrel maybe as well.

[Psyren]

None. Knowledge is power.

[Alent]

Ultimate Combat.

Nobody in our group really liked it except the group's un-optimizer/kenny, and by the time the campaign ended and we got to make new characters using it, enough of it was on the PF SRD that nobody noticed when I stopped bringing it.

It isn't really a bad book, but I was expecting more of it than it had to give.

[Nousos]

Anger of Angels, as much as I loathe pretty much all of the author's work, I could get past all of that for a book giving me a stated out heirarchy of angelic evil bane smiting war machines. (which is what the fluff was) As I should have known, pretty much every part of the book was a mess, ranging from laughably over or under CR'd stats and LA to horribly weak and unusable prc's. Even the fluff didn't seem in any way logical.

Oddly enough I don't regret buying obscure campaign setting books that I rarely touch.

[Khedrac]

For me it's the 3.0 psionics books, but I did get lucky - I saw my friend's copy of the Dungeon Survival Guide before I bought one.

[Brookshw]

Exemplars of Evil, had some useful things but too many pages spent on npc plot hooks I'll never use.

[atemu1234]

Tome of Battle.

Why? Just money reasons?


3X Psionic books just yuck, such a waste of time and space to make an ''alternative magic system for no reason''.

I'd say Tome of Battle, but I never bought that horrible book. I did ''own'' one for a minute or so....but it's ashes now.

We know your tome of battle qualms, and don't want to turn this into another thread on that.

Also, I can agree with complete psionics, but EPH is alright.

[Petrocorus]

3X Psionic books just yuck, such a waste of time and space to make an ''alternative magic system for no reason''.

Even the XPH? Just because you think another subsystem is useless



I'd say Tome of Battle, but I never bought that horrible book. I did ''own'' one for a minute or so....but it's ashes now.


Tome of Battle.

What's the problem with ToB?

[atemu1234]

What's the problem with ToB?

H-shh-shh-shh-shh! Don't ask, just don't bleeding ask!

[StoneCipher]

BoEF...don't ask...

[Psyren]

To the folks asking "why ToB" - you're not ever going to get every D&D player, even fans, to sign off on that book - you're just not. Trying is a waste of time. And I say that as someone who is 85% in favor of ToB. (With the unofficial errata, I'm 90%, and with Path of War instead I'm 95%.)

[lytokk]

Probably the Draconomicon. Bought it years ago and never used it. It gets more use as a clipboard than anything else. After that, would be the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. After the first few games I was in, we started playing in Eberron, and then moved to homebrew settings. Never needed to open that book again.

[thompur]

Magic of the Incarnum. What a mess that book is. I sold it to a buddy of mine for $20, and felt like I had cheated him. He wasn't thrilled with it either, but being a completist, he was glad to have gotten it for so much less than cover price.

[(Un)Inspired]

I actually kinda want to say the PHB. All the classes in it, with the exception of the bard, are borked to the max, almost all the feats are boring, all the races are boring and anything I absolutely NEED from it I can get from the SRD.

[Der_DWSage]

Sad as it makes me to say it...I'd actually say Tome of Magic. Not that it's bad or anything, and the classes all have some wonderful fluffy bits even if the classes are broken, but because I've never had a chance to actually use the sodding thing. Never did get to play a Binder, and then my group decided to switch over to Pathfinder with minimal backporting...

[Psyren]

Sad as it makes me to say it...I'd actually say Tome of Magic. Not that it's bad or anything, and the classes all have some wonderful fluffy bits even if the classes are broken, but because I've never had a chance to actually use the sodding thing. Never did get to play a Binder, and then my group decided to switch over to Pathfinder with minimal backporting...

Show them the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist) - captures the feel of the Binder, and it's designed for PF so you don't have any porting to do, just pick up and play.

[Extra Anchovies]

Show them the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist) - captures the feel of the Binder, and it's designed for PF so you don't have any porting to do, just pick up and play.

Well, pick up, learn the many numerous vestiges (sorry, spirits) of which I have yet to find any on the SRD (which means you need to buy Pact Magic Unbound, maybe both volumes), and of which there are many more than in ToM, and then play. YMMV.

[ngilop]

I can only speak for myself on why I wish I had not spent the 35.99 on the Tome of Battle. {scrubbed}


When I originally opened the book first thing I did was flip through to some of the actual maneuvers, did I cry when I read them YES I thought finally WoTC wizened up and stop crapping all over the mundanes and gave the fighter, rogue, and to a lesser extent paladin something half decent. so I spent hard earned money. went home and ACTUALLY read in in detail then hated it. hated it so much

90% of the book is literally 1 attack for more damage. instead of maneuvers scaling you have to spent limited resources on spending a maneuver known on the maneuver that does 1d4 damage and another on the one that does 2d4 damage 4 levels later. WHAT? spells automatically scale. why not maneuvers?

then you go maneuvers that DO A WHOPPING extra 2 damage or some bull like that, really?


AND what a maneuver = a feat but lets crap all over the fighter and say ' yeah the fighter is TOTALLY the master of combat, but he only counts as a half master cuz we hate mundanes, also anybody can only take a maneuver 3 times YA HOO lets =screw the fighter over even more!!!!"

prob 3/4 of the book could have been taken out if they just made stuff scale to level.
THEN they could have just fregging added in maneuvers that actually did more than deal extra damage like, maybe status conditions, ability score damage, and other various cool tings


oh yeah the base idea was good I will give them that, but I mean look at the Oathsworn or the Ritual Warrior class IT actually had more than the ToB did even if you guys don't like it ( it was the first instance that you could find maneuvers, cept they were called combat rites)

THEN they gave it some fru-fru lore that made no sense and instead of calling the book "FIGHTER, ROGUES, AND PALADINS DONE RIGHT" they called it book of nine swords blargh

and why OH WHY did they slap on wis to AC for the swowd sage and give some BULL ISH about unarmed damage the class is literally ROGUE but everybody just because of those 2 things says MONK MONK MONK!!!!! SHUT UP! it supposed to be a rogue

and why does the warblade WHO IS SUPPOSED to be the main martial initiator dude guy have the CRAP maneuvers compared to the swordsage?


IT just did not go far enoufh and for that I can say that its the one book, from the 1244 D20 based books I have (im not joking there) that I wish I never purchased. (Well I might be a dozen or so off to be honest)


and that's why I will never ever buy anything from Dreamscarred Press, they had YEARS to know why, how and where the ToB fell short and what could be done to fix it and make it actually be served on a plate of awesome with a side of bodacious but they dropped the bar so hard for me that I am just ' yeah, never supporting this company' which bums me out because I was totally pumped that they were doing path of war originally and I was like ' hey I know that guy; well at least ive seen him on the forums.. that kinda counts... I think?

but when I actually read PoW I was so, so very angry. I know im probably the only person on this website that abhors PoW but to me they had decade+ to work out the kinks of the ToB and soop it up and then pathfinder-atize it to make it so martials and mundanes have some kick butt things to do that make people go YEAHH!!!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o) instead to me the committed the biggest sin ive ever seen in gaming after being told by monte cook that only stupid people want to play classes that do not cast spells.

I could rant on for longer but I think the core of my dislike is in there.

[Psyren]

Well, pick up, learn the many numerous vestiges (sorry, spirits) of which I have yet to find any on the SRD (which means you need to buy Pact Magic Unbound, maybe both volumes), and of which there are many more than in ToM, and then play. YMMV.

They're all right here (http://alharadnd.wikidot.com/occultist-spirits), though I do certainly recommend buying the books as the fluff is pretty neat.

[Extra Anchovies]

They're all right here (http://alharadnd.wikidot.com/occultist-spirits), though I do certainly recommend buying the books as the fluff is pretty neat.

Oh, nice! I'd been linked that before, but had lost the link and wasn't sure if it was a complete list. Time to get reading...

[kellbyb]

I can only speak for myself on why I wish I had not spent the 35.99 on the Tome of Battle. {scrubbed}


When I originally opened the book first thing I did was flip through to some of the actual maneuvers, did I cry when I read them YES I thought finally WoTC wizened up and stop crapping all over the mundanes and gave the fighter, rogue, and to a lesser extent paladin something half decent. so I spent hard earned money. went home and ACTUALLY read in in detail then hated it. hated it so much

90% of the book is literally 1 attack for more damage. instead of maneuvers scaling you have to spent limited resources on spending a maneuver known on the maneuver that does 1d4 damage and another on the one that does 2d4 damage 4 levels later. WHAT? spells automatically scale. why not maneuvers?

then you go maneuvers that DO A WHOPPING extra 2 damage or some bull like that, really?


AND what a maneuver = a feat but lets crap all over the fighter and say ' yeah the fighter is TOTALLY the master of combat, but he only counts as a half master cuz we hate mundanes, also anybody can only take a maneuver 3 times YA HOO lets =screw the fighter over even more!!!!"

prob 3/4 of the book could have been taken out if they just made stuff scale to level.
THEN they could have just fregging added in maneuvers that actually did more than deal extra damage like, maybe status conditions, ability score damage, and other various cool tings


oh yeah the base idea was good I will give them that, but I mean look at the Oathsworn or the Ritual Warrior class IT actually had more than the ToB did even if you guys don't like it ( it was the first instance that you could find maneuvers, cept they were called combat rites)

THEN they gave it some fru-fru lore that made no sense and instead of calling the book "FIGHTER, ROGUES, AND PALADINS DONE RIGHT" they called it book of nine swords blargh

and why OH WHY did they slap on wis to AC for the swowd sage and give some BULL ISH about unarmed damage the class is literally ROGUE but everybody just because of those 2 things says MONK MONK MONK!!!!! SHUT UP! it supposed to be a rogue

and why does the warblade WHO IS SUPPOSED to be the main martial initiator dude guy have the CRAP maneuvers compared to the swordsage?


IT just did not go far enoufh and for that I can say that its the one book, from the 1244 D20 based books I have (im not joking there) that I wish I never purchased. (Well I might be a dozen or so off to be honest)


and that's why I will never ever buy anything from Dreamscarred Press, they had YEARS to know why, how and where the ToB fell short and what could be done to fix it and make it actually be served on a plate of awesome with a side of bodacious but they dropped the bar so hard for me that I am just ' yeah, never supporting this company' which bums me out because I was totally pumped that they were doing path of war originally and I was like ' hey I know that guy; well at least ive seen him on the forums.. that kinda counts... I think?

but when I actually read PoW I was so, so very angry. I know im probably the only person on this website that abhors PoW but to me they had decade+ to work out the kinks of the ToB and soop it up and then pathfinder-atize it to make it so martials and mundanes have some kick butt things to do that make people go YEAHH!!!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o) instead to me the committed the biggest sin ive ever seen in gaming after being told by monte cook that only stupid people want to play classes that do not cast spells.

I could rant on for longer but I think the core of my dislike is in there.

You can't have actually looked at the maneuvers thoroughly if that's what you think.

[Threadnaught]

There's no book I have that I regret owning, so I'll answer the same question differently.

Tome of Battle, I wish I hadn't bought it as late as I did.

[Petrocorus]

You can't have actually looked at the maneuvers thoroughly if that's what you think.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384906-How-do-you-feel-Tome-of-Battle-has-let-you-down

There was actually a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384906-How-do-you-feel-Tome-of-Battle-has-let-you-down) about the flaws of ToB. I was surprise that people wished they hadn't buy it, because for all its flaws, people still think it's good.

[Extra Anchovies]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384906-How-do-you-feel-Tome-of-Battle-has-let-you-down

There was actually a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384906-How-do-you-feel-Tome-of-Battle-has-let-you-down) about the flaws of ToB. I was surprise that people wished they hadn't buy it, because for all its flaws, people still think it's good.

It's an innovative subsystem that I wish had gotten a lot more support from subsequent 3.5 books. I love love love how much ToB homebrew there is.

[Petrocorus]

It's an innovative subsystem that I wish had gotten a lot more support from subsequent 3.5 books. I love love love how much ToB homebrew there is.

Yeah, the lack of support was the number one complain in that thread, including by me, and you IIRC. They could have done so much with this idea. They could have created more classes, more PrC, more disciplines, fix badly edited maneuvers, etc...
They should have done what DSP is doing: releasing a second book.

Hummm, i'd better stop that before i derail the thread.

[Madhava]

Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?

[Thealtruistorc]

Bloodforge. That book is a stain on the good name of DSP and happens to be the one I avoid using at all costs.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, the lack of support was the number one complain in that thread, including by me, and you IIRC. They could have done so much with this idea. They could have created more classes, more PrC, more disciplines, fix badly edited maneuvers, etc...
They should have done what DSP is doing: releasing a second book.

Hummm, i'd better stop that before i derail the thread.

You do realize it was made literally directly before 3.5 was abandoned in favour of 4e, right? There's a reason it's poorly supported.

[Ssalarn]

You do realize it was made literally directly before 3.5 was abandoned in favour of 4e, right? There's a reason it's poorly supported.
This is true. Unfortunately, whatever else it may have been (and I personally like it a lot), 9 Swords was primarily Wizards' way of playtesting a bunch of ideas they wanted to use for 4E while also making money. They were never going to support it because any success it had was just going to usher in 4E that much quicker.

[nedz]

Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?

I kind of second this, though my copy only cost me £3 new —more like £9 with postage (from a games store in Glasgow). It does have some interesting PrCs, though they are all early in 3.5, many if them are iconic — though others are not. The base classes were mainly published elsewhere — with the exception of Marshall and Knight. It is quite a dull book though.

[Solaris]

I saw someone mention Monster Manual II as the one book they regret purchasing.
I have to agree. That's the one book I own (and I own MoI, which I used as the basis for a planetary romance setting's magic system, ToB, and ToM) that I've never gotten any use out of. Heck, I've gotten use out of IV and V (I'm running a dragon-themed campaign, in a setting where most of a dragon's eggs hatch into dragonspawn) than I have out of II.
Even the asperi, a monster I think is pretty cool, is lamer than its nearest competition as a special mount, the pegasus.

[SiuiS]

The book that I consider my most interesting purchase, and SOMETIMES wish I never bought: Book of erotic fantasy

If you ever want to sell it, lemme know. I can't find a hardcover version to save my life.


Monster Manual II. That book was just... just awful.

Eh. Yeah kinda. Lot if imagination, very little, you know, balanced game.


3X Psionic books just yuck, such a waste of time and space to make an ''alternative magic system for no reason''.

I'd say Tome of Battle, but I never bought that horrible book. I did ''own'' one for a minute or so....but it's ashes now.

That's attrocious. You could have sold it instead! I would be buying. Mine was stolen :(


Complete Psionics. Considering that it is the only hardback 3.0/3.5 book that I returned to the store.

My current copy was actually a gift from a friend who used to own a bookstore and was otherwise going to be trashed because of damage.

---
Rules Compendium is also in contention. Complete Scoundrel maybe as well.

Hmm. Why rules compendium? Specifically? This should be insightful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm. Why rules compendium? Specifically? This should be insightful.

I'd hazard that it's because there's -very- little in it that isn't written elsewhere and almost none of that hadn't already been handled by any DM that was playing for a year or so before it was printed.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd hazard that it's because there's -very- little in it that isn't written elsewhere and almost none of that hadn't already been handled by any DM that was playing for a year or so before it was printed.

And it rules some things as not working for no reason; like precision damage on volleys.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm. Why rules compendium? Specifically? This should be insightful.

A number of reasons.

First, it didn't actually answer the rules questions I had or clarified many actual rules ambiguities.

Second, is the lack of any new content. This is relatively minor but it adds to the issue.

Third, rules wise it doesn't actually do what it says that it does thanks to the rules hierarchy.

Fourth, some of the rules clarifications that it tried to make are nonsensical, stupid, or otherwise run into rules issues. How it handles miss chance and concealment comes to mind.

[Extra Anchovies]

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?

Indeed. If you want to turn D&D into a wargame, just go back and play Chainmail.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?


Indeed. If you want to turn D&D into a wargame, just go back and play Chainmail.

I dunno. I could see wanting to run a war campaign that started with heroes of battle and, as the players worked their way up the ranks to command positions, moving into the mini's handbooks rules for skirmishes and eventually mass battles or even employing them if the players took control of a nation and decided they want to expand their borders.

On-topic, I really don't regret having purchased any of my D20 books and I payed retail or close to it for nearly all of them. Kind of a completionist that way. Heck, I'm still looking for more of them when finances permits.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?

I never bought that, but I did buy Heroes of Battle. Not sure if there's anything useful in there.

Actually, I think the War Weaver is good, but that's like, it. War Weaver and some fluff for armies. Definitely the least valuable book I have.

[Petrocorus]

You do realize it was made literally directly before 3.5 was abandoned in favour of 4e, right? There's a reason it's poorly supported.

Yes, i know. But the fact they had a reason not to support it and publish more does not make the said lack of support less annoying to those who like that subsystem. Not to mention that i am among those who never got interested in 4E, and i would really have preferred more ToB than a new edition.

[Pex]

3E's Tome of Magic

I found Truenamer pathetically useless and Shadowcaster weak and complicated that an Illusionist or Necromancer could do better. I know Binder has many fans, but it didn't click with me. I agree it functions well and is the best part of the book, but just for my personal taste it has no appeal to me. I will acquiesce that it deserved to be featured in a book with better classes.

[Judge_Worm]

Player's Handbook II
It has some fluff no crunch.

[OldTrees1]

Player's Handbook II
It has some fluff no crunch.

Huh? That had several base classes, several ACFs, lots of feats, and some spells(but everything does).

Mine would be the Hero Builder's Handbook or whatever that thing was called. It had literally no crunch. (Not even a single spell, feat, or item) All it was was example personality cutouts for each PHB race with each PHB class and a personality generator quiz.

[atemu1234]

Player's Handbook II
It has some fluff no crunch.

But it's wonderfully exploitable. Businesses and apprenticeships, anyone?

[Lord_Gareth]

Bloodforge. That book is a stain on the good name of DSP and happens to be the one I avoid using at all costs.

I could use further feedback on this, if you're willing to give it. PM or in-thread works, or via email if you prefer. Hit me up in PM if you need my email address.

[Palanan]

Like Kelb and Psyren, I'm generally pleased with the books that I have, since I collect them for their own sake as well as gaming support. The lone exception is Arcana Unearthed, which I grabbed on a whim in a used bookstore, and which hasn't proven especially fruitful so far.

Well, that and the NPC Codex from Pathfinder, which I haven't used as much as I'd hoped. But it'll be there when I need it.


Originally Posted by ngilop
Tome of Battle

I was offered a free copy of that book not too long ago. Turned it down. 'Nuff said.


Originally Posted by Solaris
…Monster Manual II….

And I love my MM2.

[Gnome Alone]

I was offered a free copy of that book not too long ago. Turned it down. 'Nuff said.

And I love my MM2.

Burn the heretic, does not compute, etc. :smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

Magic of the Incarnum. What a mess that book is. I sold it to a buddy of mine for $20, and felt like I had cheated him. He wasn't thrilled with it either, but being a completist, he was glad to have gotten it for so much less than cover price.

Huh. That's odd, I love incarnum. It's very well done; two classes. Some good races and some silly ones, useful feats, an abuseable power and spell or two, fun prestige classes, and some interesting monsters.


Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Half of this book has, to this day, got me scratching my head: Skirmishing? Mass battle rules? Does anyone actually make use of this stuff?

I did! It was a disaster. You basically need the players to learn a new game. You may as well break out a Warhammer set instead.


You do realize it was made literally directly before 3.5 was abandoned in favour of 4e, right? There's a reason it's poorly supported.

So what you're saying is, we need the template to back port all of 4e as maneuvers?


I'd hazard that it's because there's -very- little in it that isn't written elsewhere and almost none of that hadn't already been handled by any DM that was playing for a year or so before it was printed.

Mm. I still find it handy as a reference, myself, but my players don't optimize well so I haven't memorized some of the stuff (or memorized conflicting rules).


A number of reasons.

First, it didn't actually answer the rules questions I had or clarified many actual rules ambiguities.

Second, is the lack of any new content. This is relatively minor but it adds to the issue.

Third, rules wise it doesn't actually do what it says that it does thanks to the rules hierarchy.

Fourth, some of the rules clarifications that it tried to make are nonsensical, stupid, or otherwise run into rules issues. How it handles miss chance and concealment comes to mind.

Interesting. Alright.



I was offered a free copy of that book not too long ago. Turned it down. 'Nuff said.

D: send it my way!

[Vhaidara]

Player's Handbook II
It has some fluff no crunch.

Excuse me, but what are Duskblade, Beguiler, Knight, Dragon Shaman, and several pages of ACFs and feats? What are the rules for retraining that were introduced there?

For me, probably Enemies and Allies, though even that had some interesting ideas

[Telok]

The ToB errata.

Regardless of your opinion on the book itself what happened with the errata was unprofessional and a direct insult to the customers. That was when I stopped buying WotC products. I still play the game and check the gamer shelf of my used bookstore, but I was so offended by their handling of the ToB errata that I will never buy any product from them ever again.

[(Un)Inspired]

The ToB errata.

Regardless of your opinion on the book itself what happened with the errata was unprofessional and a direct insult to the customers. That was when I stopped buying WotC products. I still play the game and check the gamer shelf of my used bookstore, but I was so offended by their handling of the ToB errata that I will never buy any product from them ever again.

What did they do with the errata; I havent seen it.

[Vhaidara]

What did they do with the errata; I havent seen it.

It contains 2 things about ToB, including a nerf to the Shadow Hand 9th, but not including fixing any stance progressions or the 6x skill points that Swordsages get at level 1. It then becomes errata for Complete Mage.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. As much as I love my Pathfinder books... I wish I hadn't bought my copy of Inner Sea World Guide. I love it, but I bought non-mint and the binding is shot. I can barely take it out to read it. I love the book though.

Content-wise, probably Humans of golarion, which I believe I have used all of once for a character. The fluff is all compiled elsewhere, and the crunch is lacking.

[Solaris]

And I love my MM2.

I'm not ruling out the possibility I've missed something. What do you love in it?

[Gnome Alone]

It contains 2 things about ToB, including a nerf to the Shadow Hand 9th, but not including fixing any stance progressions or the 6x skill points that Swordsages get at level 1. It then becomes errata for Complete Mage.

And then the photocopy of the author's butt cheeks at the end was just a little too on-the-nose

[Vhaidara]

And then the photocopy of the author's butt cheeks at the end was just a little too on-the-nose

...
...
...
Please, for the love of all that is good and just in the world, tell me that this actually exists somewhere

[(Un)Inspired]

...
...
...
Please, for the love of all that is good and just in the world, tell me that this actually exists somewhere

Photocopies of buttcheeks? Sure I know a guy who knows a guy. I can get you some buttcheek photocopies... But it's gonna cost ya

[Vhaidara]

Photocopies of buttcheeks? Sure I know a guy who knows a guy. I can get you some buttcheek photocopies... But it's gonna cost ya

No, specifically in the ToB errata.

[(Un)Inspired]

No, specifically in the ToB errata.

Hey buddy, where you want to put them is up to you. I'm just the guy dealing out butt pics.

[Gnome Alone]

...
...
...
Please, for the love of all that is good and just in the world, tell me that this actually exists somewhere

Sorry, the world is a desert of meaninglessness where bad bitter things happen for no reason and nothing good lasts for long, and I was just riffing on the implied disrespect inherent in switching to the Complete Mage errata halfway and then not even giving a **** about it.

[Petrocorus]

Huh. That's odd, I love incarnum. It's very well done; two classes. Some good races and some silly ones, useful feats, an abuseable power and spell or two, fun prestige classes, and some interesting monsters.


Oh Siuis...
Your love for the Soulborn is so heartwarming. :smallamused:


Hmm. As much as I love my Pathfinder books... I wish I hadn't bought my copy of Inner Sea World Guide. I love it, but I bought non-mint and the binding is shot. I can barely take it out to read it. I love the book though.


What non-mint actually means? I've seen it before but i cannot fathom what mint and books have to do together and my wikipedia-fu had failed me.

[Divayth Fyr]

What non-mint actually means? I've seen it before but i cannot fathom what mint and books have to do together and my wikipedia-fu had failed me.
Not perfect. As opposed to mint condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mint_condition).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Paizo normally offers non-mint books like that on discounts. I got what I paid for, at least.

[the_david]

Confessions of a parttime sorceress.

Don't buy it.

[Gnome Alone]

Confessions of a parttime sorceress.

Don't buy it.

"I was barely scandalized at all!"

[ko_sct]

Armor and equipement handbook.

I think I used the thing once or twice, but never for something of any importance.

Plus like, half the book is just badly priced magical items that nobody will ever use because, why would they ?

[Vhaidara]

Armor and equipement handbook.

Lies and slander. That books is absolute gold! How else am I supposed to fill up my inventory with "just in case" items? How else would my gnome bard have been able to make coffee for the party and thereby prove that he was useful?

[ko_sct]

Lies and slander. That books is absolute gold! How else am I supposed to fill up my inventory with "just in case" items? How else would my gnome bard have been able to make coffee for the party and thereby prove that he was useful?

I'll conceide that the 5 different kind of hammoc and bedrolls really make adventuring more cozy, but no more !


Also, I'll add 3.0E Psionic handbook to the list. The thing is a mess.

[Alabenson]

For me, my biggest regret was purchasing Weapons of Legacy, which to this day is the only book I outright ban. Never before or since have I seen a book so utterly devoid of anything even remotely useful, and I own practically every book WoD printed during 3e.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, I'll add 3.0E Psionic handbook to the list. The thing is a mess.

But you cast off of all 6 stats. SIMULTANEOUSLY. What's not to love?

XPH is among my faves (and I tolerate CPsi because Ardent is sweet) and I got that love from 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but it really was an unholy mess. Nothing scaled; you cast off of all of the stats and "talents" were a nightmare. They did have a feat that gave you +4 deflection bonus as long as you had a power point left, that was fun. Cerebrilith was a terrifying enemy though (half-damage from everything, magic and psionics).

[SiuiS]

Oh Siuis...
Your love for the Soulborn is so heartwarming. :smallamused:


The what? Is that a paladin acf from CoV or something?



What non-mint actually means? I've seen it before but i cannot fathom what mint and books have to do together and my wikipedia-fu had failed me.

The mint is the place a book is minted, and mint condition means it is in condition equal to being fresh off the plate.


Lies and slander. That books is absolute gold! How else am I supposed to fill up my inventory with "just in case" items? How else would my gnome bard have been able to make coffee for the party and thereby prove that he was useful?

Maybe by being a useful party member? Heh.

Naw, I'd choose coffee.

[Susano-wo]

But you cast off of all 6 stats. SIMULTANEOUSLY. What's not to love?

XPH is among my faves (and I tolerate CPsi because Ardent is sweet) and I got that love from 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but it really was an unholy mess. Nothing scaled; you cast off of all of the stats and "talents" were a nightmare. They did have a feat that gave you +4 deflection bonus as long as you had a power point left, that was fun. Cerebrilith was a terrifying enemy though (half-damage from everything, magic and psionics).

I actually like the idea of different disciplines working off of different stats, though six is a bit much. Hard to rationalize casting off of DEX or STR :smallamused:

My ears perked up when I saw people mention that the Mini Handbook had mass combat, cause I need one (well, my group does--I'm not the DM :smallsmile:), but sad to hear that its not a good system :smallsigh:

Which brings me to my entry, whcih I didn't technically buy, though I put it on a Christmas list a few year ago, and that's what I recieved, so I'm counting it:
Warpath: A 3rd party PF mass combat system. Had a lot of interesting ideas, but when you started to try to apply it, it just broke down. Not to mention the ridiculous power of AoEs. (they would be powerful, but the damage multiplier is insane)

[kalasulmar]

This is true. Unfortunately, whatever else it may have been (and I personally like it a lot), 9 Swords was primarily Wizards' way of playtesting a bunch of ideas they wanted to use for 4E while also making money. They were never going to support it because any success it had was just going to usher in 4E that much quicker.

This. TOB reads to me as 4e Lite. If I wanted 4e, I would play 4e.

[Just to Browse]

This. TOB reads to me as 4e Lite. If I wanted 4e, I would play 4e.

It's more like vice versa. Lots of 4e abilities felt like ToB lite. If I wanted to play 4e, I would go play ToB.

[Extra Anchovies]

My ears perked up when I saw people mention that the Mini Handbook had mass combat, cause I need one (well, my group does--I'm not the DM :smallsmile:), but sad to hear that its not a good system :smallsigh:

Have you ever played the D&D miniatures game? Yeah, it's rules for turning your wonderful tabletop RPG into... that.

[Petrocorus]

The what? Is that a paladin acf from CoV or something?

:smallbiggrin:
I knew you were going to says something like this.



The mint is the place a book is minted, and mint condition means it is in condition equal to being fresh off the plate.

I was very confused when i saw it on the Paizo website. And because non-mint prices are below the PDF versions' prices, i thought it was some king of unmarked PDF, or some kind of premium edition PDF.



Maybe by being a useful party member? Heh.

Naw, I'd choose coffee.


Lies and slander. That books is absolute gold! How else am I supposed to fill up my inventory with "just in case" items? How else would my gnome bard have been able to make coffee for the party and thereby prove that he was useful?

All Hail the Holy Coffee. The greatest beverage that ever was or will be.
Seriously, isn't there a spell for coffee? Create Food and Water seems limited.

On a completely unrelated note, Siuis. I see several people like Fax and you who have the same kind of square profile picture, with the same kind of art. Where is this from?

[Susano-wo]

Have you ever played the D&D miniatures game? Yeah, it's rules for turning your wonderful tabletop RPG into... that.

I though the mini game was squad based combat using basically D&D rules, with some simplifications for ease of play. What I'm talking about is Army vs Army combat

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lies and slander. That books is absolute gold! How else am I supposed to fill up my inventory with "just in case" items? How else would my gnome bard have been able to make coffee for the party and thereby prove that he was useful?

Could not agree more. Spider poles, portable crane, the hang glider, all kinds of great stuff in there. It's got the rules for beer for chris' sakes. How could you dislike the book that has the rules for beer. and coffee. Beer and coffee, mmmmmm.

[Extra Anchovies]

On a completely unrelated note, Siuis. I see several people like Fax and you who have the same kind of square profile picture, with the same kind of art. Where is this from?

It's from the mobile game Puzzle and Dragons. Here's a GitP thread devoted to it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386743-Puzzle-amp-Dragons-9-Of-Godfests-and-Golems)

[Arbane]

I actually like the idea of different disciplines working off of different stats, though six is a bit much. Hard to rationalize casting off of DEX or STR :smallamused:


Spoken like someone who's never seen Fullmetal Alchemist or this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7RosIoQisA). :smallwink:

[Susano-wo]

Very familiar with FMA, but Psionics is very much not Alchemy (Armstrong's ability is more akin to ahving a magic item on your fists :smallamused:)
And yeah Muscle Wizard is funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Telok]

...
...
...
Please, for the love of all that is good and just in the world, tell me that this actually exists somewhere

Ask and ye shall receive.

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip).

That's the Official D&D Update from the official WotC errata page (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) (archived).

[Threadnaught]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip).

That's the Official D&D Update from the official WotC errata page (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) (archived).

Is it wrong that I want the persons responsible for that awful excuse for being told it's raining while being urinated on, to be forced to listen as I describe in great detail why I hate that and it makes them unprofessional?

[kellbyb]

i actually like the idea of different disciplines working off of different stats, though six is a bit much. Hard to rationalize casting off of dex or str :smallamused:

I CAST FIST!

Seriously, 6-stat casting can be pretty fun.

[T.G. Oskar]

Miniatures Handbook.

Marshal can be a helpful 1 or 2 level dip, although I've yet to actually make use of this in-game. And Skullclan Hunter always looked serviceable; possibly one of the few decent noncaster Rogue PrC's. But again, haven't ever played one.

Useful, un-reprinted crunch ends right about here, as I see it.

Strange not to see War Hulk. No BAB progression, but you get +20 to Strength. That's one of the few PrCs I really consider Epic PrCs in disguise: by 21st level you get all your BAB and all you get is Epic Attack Bonus progressions; get a bunch of boosts to Strength, and it's like getting BAB with a free bonus to damage rolls, Strength checks and increase to carrying capacity, minus extra attacks. The others are: Dragon Disciple (for the bonus spell slots after getting 9th level spells), BoED's Wonderworker (ditto, except they also get more PP) and Oriental Adventures' Eunuch Warlock (also free bonus spell slots). Early on, they suck; later on, they rock. Warchief is also funny. Also: Protectar and Ramadeen were never updated (read: two celestials with low CR but without being Tiny, Small, or incorporeal), no other way to get free +8 to natural armor than a Crucian and Alter Self, Kruthiks were pretty awesome...a good deal of the monsters are fairly good. Besides, how I'm gonna convince my girlfriend to play D&D without the healer?

[squiggit]

Advanced Class Guide

Not because I hate the book or anything, but since it doesn't have any fluff of any sort in it (other than two sentences at the start of every chapter I guess), every time I want to look up anything ACG related I just use the pfsrd and I don't think I've touched the actual ACG since everything got printed on there.

[kalasulmar]

If I wanted to play 4e, I would go play ToB.

I think I just found a sig quote.

[Ethelesin]

Magic of Incarnum, no doubt. I love the book to bits but i just... Dont have the right kind of imagination to work with the tools it gives me.

[Psyren]

Advanced Class Guide

Not because I hate the book or anything, but since it doesn't have any fluff of any sort in it (other than two sentences at the start of every chapter I guess), every time I want to look up anything ACG related I just use the pfsrd and I don't think I've touched the actual ACG since everything got printed on there.

That's true for any of the core product line (i.e. Advanced X or Ultimtate X.) They are specifically designed to be setting-neutral, not that PF has more than one setting anyway.

ACG's first print run completely sold out even so.

[Fitz10019]

The Complete Riding Dog
What a mongrel.

[squiggit]

That's true for any of the core product line (i.e. Advanced X or Ultimtate X.) They are specifically designed to be setting-neutral, not that PF has more than one setting anyway.

ACG's first print run completely sold out even so.

Yeah I know, and I'm not blaming everyone. I've just realized that basically every time I want to work on an investigator or arcanist (etc.) I'm on d20pfsrd before I even think about opening the book.

The book itself is awesome and I only have a few minor complaints (ignoring the typos and some classes I don't like the only big one is stuff like the killing flourish feat chain being mysteriously slayer only for no real reason, which is minor stuff).

[JimboG]

Manual of the Planes, not because I was unsatisfied with the content, but because after reading it I instantly felt that all of my campaign settings were horribly and irrevocably inadequate and lacking imagination.

[blackspeeker]

I sometimes wish I hadn't bought the advanced class guide too, things are cool but seem sort of bland, maybe it's the fact that some of the classes feel forced together. Other days I'm glad I have it for a physical reference, since three guys myself included are playing a hybrid in one game and another member of our group recently converted to a bloodrager. But I don't really see myself using it that much in the future.

[lsfreak]

Of the ones I personally own, toss up between Heroes of Battle and MM1. HoB because it is primarily a collection of ideas, with precious little crunch. MM1 because all of it that I'd ever want is online. Missing a few things, but not enough to warrant what I paid for it.

Of other books, a number of good contenders have been mentioned. I don't think Epic Level Handbook has been mentioned yet though. It's primarily available online, but on top of that, you could probably take an evening and come up with something better-balanced and more interesting to play.

[Petrocorus]

MM1 because all of it that I'd ever want is online. Missing a few things, but not enough to warrant what I paid for it.

On the top of my head, the only monsters i really miss in the SRD are the Illithid and the Beholder.

[Svata]

On the top of my head, the only monsters i really miss in the SRD are the Illithid and the Beholder.

In addition, I'm partial to the gith, myself.