[3.5]Is High Arcana worth it?

[AngelOfFaith]

I'm a not-so ambitious sorceress 6 Incantatrix 2 human in a normal campaign amongst friends. I'm not trying to cheese some god-toppling power out of the game - I'm taking levels of Incantatrix mainly because a pure Sorc has no class features. Up until now I've been taking feats for fun or a little bit of punch - Extend Spell, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, Arcane Mastery and so on. The DM uses pretty much all the 3.5 books. No homebrew or magazines.
So my question is: Is it worth it to become an Archmage? My initial idea was to be Sorc 6 Incantatrix 10 Archmage 4 but now that I've looked through a few feats I'm starting to have second thoughts...

Arcane Fire seems powerful with a lot of scary d6s in it but I can't help and wonder why I shouldn't just take Arcane Burst(or any other reserve feat) if I want to throw death about every turn. It is surely less powerful but I also don't lose a spell every time I do it and a 9th level spell slot for the luxury.

Arcane Reach... I guess if I was a more experienced player I would be able to think of good uses for this but my sorceress is more of a throw-a-fireball, fly-away kind of girl. If I wanted to do touch spells I would probably still have a familiar.

Mastery of Counterspelling sounds powerful but I imagine it'll be a situational thing for me - I need to be fighting spellcasters, spellcasters the spells of whom I can counterspell and spells I want to turn on them and can be turned. Maybe if I was specialized in counterspelling? If I was an Initiate of The Sevenfold Vale? I don't know. And for that ability I would be sacrificing a 7th level spell slot instead of casting Spell Turning... which is a 7th level spell. Heck, I'm not much of an Incantatrix, but I could just try and Persist Spell Turning instead of this.

Mastery of Elements is one of the two High Arcana that made me go for AM - Fireballs need to kill fire elementals and daemons sometimes - but again I could just take Energy Substitution Sonic and decide that I'm never going to the Elemental plane of Heavy Metal. And I get to keep my 8th level spell slot too.

Mastery of Shaping is the other reason I opted for high arcanism - as a kind of a blaster Sorc the abilities to shapes and change the elements of said blasts seems awesome. And I think it is and I also think I could just take Sculpt Spell. I would be casting things as spells of higher levels but I would also not lose a 6th level spell for the rest of my career.

Spell Power is one of the things I really like and I can't closely replicate with a feat(I think) and if I want a similar effect I guess the other options are some very, very expensive items but I don't know if I can justify going for Archmage just for this. Its also one of the features that requires a smaller sacrifice - only a 5th level spell slot but still...

Spell-Like Ability is the other one the usefulness of which I'm not sure about. It would surely be better for Wizards instead of Sorcerers but I don't know if being able to cast a (high) level spell 2 times a day or more instead of once is worth it. It doesn't use component so I could use it silenced? Maybe I could use it while paralyzed? I don't know. It sill costs a 5th level spell slot plus the spell slot of the spell I'm High Arcana-ing.


TL;DR Is it worth wasting two, maybe three feats(guess I could use Skill Focus:Spellcraft) and character levels so that I take High Arcana? Can't I just take some useful metamagic feats and use my final levels before 20 for a dip into Mindbender or a Fatespinner?

[ZamielVanWeber]

The spell like ability one isn't bad. You can trade a 5th (which may not get used too much by the point anyways) and a higher slot for two higher slots. You traded flexibility for turning a 5th into a higher slot (plus the added bonuses from being an SLA).

Archmage works better as sorcerer since losing those slots is less painful and the effects that are duplicated by metamagic are something you need to take a feat to avoid anyways. Consider, if you took energy substitution (sonic) and sculpt spell, you would still be only feat up from going Archmage. The question is do you think the SLAs are worth it?

[AngelOfFaith]

I guess if the feats aren't that much of a big difference the loss of the spells is the only concern... I've never reached the high level - I don't know how much I'm gonna miss those spell slots. I guess I have to do some math and see how my spells per day situation would be.

[GreatDane]

I like the spell-like ability one. It basically lets you trade up your spell slots, as long as you choose a spell above tier 5. For example, if you want greater dispel magic twice per day, you trade one tier 5 spell slot and one tier 6 spell slot. Now it's like you have two tier 6 slots!

Obviously it gets better as you choose a more powerful spell. It also works much better if you pick spells that you know you'll be casting at least twice per day.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes. Mastery of Elements is great with Incantatrix because it lets you dump Elemental Substitution and Searing Heat on every Orb you cast and then MoE it into whatever the target is weakest to, although this is better on Wizards.

Mastery of Shaping is great with a number of spells, easily worth what you give up to get it if you are already looking at taking Archmage.

Arcane Reach is a strictly superior version of Reach Spell, and for a lower cost than the feat. Taking it twice isn't even that iffy.

Spell Power is again something that you pick up when you are already going Archmage and don't specifically want something else with the level.

Spell-Like Ability Shapechange is kinda the ultimate back up piece. It can also be brokenly good if you use Spell-Like Ability Ice Assassin or Wish and then use Supernatural Transformation (a feat) to make it Supernatural and thus strip out the XP component.

All in all, Archmage is one of the better ways to finish off an Incantatrix build (Sorc/Wiz 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Mindbender 1/ Archmage 4 is probably the default for that type of character).

[AngelOfFaith]

I guess it is worth it for two or three of the effects... I'll have to think of what spells I'm willing to forego.
The Spell-Like ability + Supernatural Transformation combo sounds game-braking. I don't even know if I want to be able to do it, let alone ask my DM if he's ok with it. And on that note I remember reading somewhere that as a Sorcerer one could use their ability to swap out old spells in order to replace the spell slots given up for High Arcana. Is there something like that or am I remembering wrong?
That said what are the High Arcana you'd choose out all of them? Or if you wouldn't choose any, what other class would you take levels in instead of Archmage?

[Scipio_77]

It is campaign dependant. Arcane fire is awesome in a low munchkin campaign (item-wise). If you do a lot of spell duels, then mastery of elements and mastery of counterspelling are very nice (always with high spellcraft ofc), esp combined with some items.

However, my experience is that the more feats you have allowed in your game the more the reqs for archmage tends to suck. Sure, save DC feats can be very good , but a clever wizard can get around that by subbing with non-save spells when need be.... it isn't as good, but it is worth 2 feats. Skill focus spellcraft is just horrid.

[Agincourt]

Mastery of Elements is one of the two High Arcana that made me go for AM - Fireballs need to kill fire elementals and daemons sometimes - but again I could just take Energy Substitution Sonic and decide that I'm never going to the Elemental plane of Heavy Metal. And I get to keep my 8th level spell slot too.



Energy Substitution only allows these four energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Sonic is not eligible so you may want to take that into consideration.

[Fouredged Sword]

Keep in mind, you are a sorcerer. Unlike a wizard, you are not losing any options by losing spell slots, just the number of times you can use the options you have. You can regain the lost slot though a memento morri (sp?). Craft them yourself for a discount. Basically, you trade some WBL for some NICE effects.

A wizard can use a pearl of power to regain their lost slot, sorta. They restore a slot they already spent. Each slot lost means one less unique spell in that level, meaning one less spell they can cast each day.

[Chronos]

Arcane Fire would be worth it for a wizard who accidentally prepared all the wrong spells today, and needs to burn those spell slots on something else useful. Or at least, it would be worth it in that case, if high-level wizards ever screwed up that badly on their spell selection, and if doing a bunch of d6 to a target was really worthwhile. As a sorcerer, though, if you want to spend a spell slot to do some blasting, then you just use the slot to cast a blasting spell.

The value of Arcane Reach depends first of all on having touch spells, which as a sorcerer you might or might not. If you don't have any worthwhile touch spells, then it's obviously useless. If you do, then it's obviously useful. There are fancier tricks you can pull with it, but if you haven't been planning for them in advance, it's probably too late now.

Mastery of Counterspells can, again, be useful, but you have to build around it.

Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping are both solid gold if you like Fireball-type spells, and in fact they (or similar abilities) are often regarded as essential to make such a character work at all. Elements lets you affect any creature at all with whatever your best blasting spell is, and probably most creatures at once if you choose Sonic. Shaping lets you miss any of your allies which are in the close vicinity of your enemies.

Spell Power isn't terrible, but you can do a lot better, especially since you're probably hitting the CL cap on most of your spells anyway by this point, and durations and ranges are long enough by now that another +1 probably won't matter much.

Spell-like Ability is pure gold, as long as you have some spell, any spell (well, any spell of 6th or higher) that you know you'll always be casting twice a day. There's really no drawback.

[AngelOfFaith]

Energy Substitution only allows these four energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Sonic is not eligible so you may want to take that into consideration.

I guess you're right - I was looking at d20srd and the rules in there are core - before Complete Arcane.


Regarding Shaping and Elements couldn't I just grab a couple of metamagic rods? I guess it's going to be an expensive luxury but is gold more valuable than feats and spells? I have never reached those levels so I'm asking for advice - will it be a good choice to spend my money at high levels for such items or will I need them for other things? Rings of Freedom of Movement or something? Given our DM rolls the loot off of a table - we get gold after every encounter.
And OK, I'm getting Spell-Like Ability is op, so what would you have as one? Excluding Polymorph and the like - I like to keep my subtype. Wish twice a day?

[Frostthehero]

I'm a not-so ambitious sorceress 6 Incantatrix 2 human in a normal campaign amongst friends. I'm not trying to cheese some god-toppling power out of the game - I'm taking levels of Incantatrix mainly because a pure Sorc has no class features. Up until now I've been taking feats for fun or a little bit of punch - Extend Spell, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, Arcane Mastery and so on. The DM uses pretty much all the 3.5 books. No homebrew or magazines.
So my question is: Is it worth it to become an Archmage? My initial idea was to be Sorc 6 Incantatrix 10 Archmage 4 but now that I've looked through a few feats I'm starting to have second thoughts...

Arcane Fire seems powerful with a lot of scary d6s in it but I can't help and wonder why I shouldn't just take Arcane Burst(or any other reserve feat) if I want to throw death about every turn. It is surely less powerful but I also don't lose a spell every time I do it and a 9th level spell slot for the luxury.

Arcane Reach... I guess if I was a more experienced player I would be able to think of good uses for this but my sorceress is more of a throw-a-fireball, fly-away kind of girl. If I wanted to do touch spells I would probably still have a familiar.

Mastery of Counterspelling sounds powerful but I imagine it'll be a situational thing for me - I need to be fighting spellcasters, spellcasters the spells of whom I can counterspell and spells I want to turn on them and can be turned. Maybe if I was specialized in counterspelling? If I was an Initiate of The Sevenfold Vale? I don't know. And for that ability I would be sacrificing a 7th level spell slot instead of casting Spell Turning... which is a 7th level spell. Heck, I'm not much of an Incantatrix, but I could just try and Persist Spell Turning instead of this.

Mastery of Elements is one of the two High Arcana that made me go for AM - Fireballs need to kill fire elementals and daemons sometimes - but again I could just take Energy Substitution Sonic and decide that I'm never going to the Elemental plane of Heavy Metal. And I get to keep my 8th level spell slot too.

Mastery of Shaping is the other reason I opted for high arcanism - as a kind of a blaster Sorc the abilities to shapes and change the elements of said blasts seems awesome. And I think it is and I also think I could just take Sculpt Spell. I would be casting things as spells of higher levels but I would also not lose a 6th level spell for the rest of my career.

Spell Power is one of the things I really like and I can't closely replicate with a feat(I think) and if I want a similar effect I guess the other options are some very, very expensive items but I don't know if I can justify going for Archmage just for this. Its also one of the features that requires a smaller sacrifice - only a 5th level spell slot but still...

Spell-Like Ability is the other one the usefulness of which I'm not sure about. It would surely be better for Wizards instead of Sorcerers but I don't know if being able to cast a (high) level spell 2 times a day or more instead of once is worth it. It doesn't use component so I could use it silenced? Maybe I could use it while paralyzed? I don't know. It sill costs a 5th level spell slot plus the spell slot of the spell I'm High Arcana-ing.


TL;DR Is it worth wasting two, maybe three feats(guess I could use Skill Focus:Spellcraft) and character levels so that I take High Arcana? Can't I just take some useful metamagic feats and use my final levels before 20 for a dip into Mindbender or a Fatespinner?


High arcana is absolutely worth it.

I'll provide you with the great capabilities for each of these abilities, without telling you to build yourself to a god killing state.

Arcane fire - A third level spell (fireball, you seem to like evocation) can do the exact same thing, without costing you the spell slot. Do not take.

Arcane reach is incredible, provided you use touch spells a lot. My personal favorite use is to launch a maximized shivering touch at an enemy 30 feet away. I highly recommend this.

Mastery of counterspelling - This one has its merits, especially for a sorcerer, but other options are better.

Mastery of elements - Useful against creatures with immunities / vulnerabilities, but as I said before, there are superior options.

Mastery of shaping - This one looks great for the blaster, because you don't have to blow up your allies! In addition, pairing this with antimagic field can be fun, because it protects you, and allows you to cast spells at the same time.

Spell power - Self explanatory. Totally fantastic.

Spell like ability - Trade a 5th level spell for a 9th level that you love to cast (such as shapechange). Out of any ability, this is probably the best.

Overall, I would say that high arcana is one of the best investments you could make.

[Chronos]

Archmage's spell-like-ability still requires you to pay XP costs (and material costs converted to XP). So it's not a good choice for things like Wish unless you have some other way of removing the XP cost, because you certainly don't want to spend 10,000 XP every day (that strains even the "XP is a river" paradigm past the breaking point).

Personally, I'd go for either Shades or Polymorph Any Object, for the enormous versatility of both: You can always find some way to make both of those spells useful. You might also consider Gate, which is one of the most powerful spells in the game-- It has an XP cost for the more powerful calling function, but a more manageable one than Wish, and there's always the travel option.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, question: if not archmage, what are you thinking for those levels? Those feats?

You -could- buy greater metamagic rods for the four energy subs, but there's no comparative metamagic for mastery of shaping, though sculpt spell pairs with it quite nicely.

In any case, greater metamagic rods are expensive and there are better things you can do with that cash. Assuming, of course, your DM is even comfortable making meta rods for metamagics that don't already have them. Those energy sub rods aren't actually printed anywhere ya know.

Spell-like, I'd go with limited wish and grab supernatural transformation. Much less damaging to a low-op game than wish or some of the other high level options. That or your favorite high level spell for your normal modus operandi.

It's not terribly optimal, at all, but I like a widened cone of cold. There's just a visceral appeal to a massive, high damage AoE that you don't get with admittedly more optimal choices.

[With a box]

Does arcane reach makes touch spell persistable?
lt makes touch spell into 30ft fixed range...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does arcane reach makes touch spell persistable?
lt makes touch spell into 30ft fixed range...

Possibly, but it was arguably persistable anyway since "touch" can be considered a fixed range too. I wouldn't count on the DM looking favorably on that interpretation if he already said no to persisting touch spells.

[Asrrin]

Another point in favor of Archmage is that the Spell Like Ability High Arcana allows you the option to retrain the spell you swapped for an SLA and nab you an extra spell known you wouldn't have had otherwise.

[Chronos]

Regardless of whether Arcane Reach makes touch spells persistable, it's irrelevant if (as the OP says) you have few or no touch spells.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mastery of Shaping is incredible for blasters and battlefield controllers, and combines nicely with Sculpt Spell. Extraordinary Spell Aim somewhat does what it does, but hardly.

Spell-like ability for two 9th level spells per day at the cost of...much less than that is amazing, you just want to wait to take it till you have 9th level slots. Shapechange, Time Stop, Gate...all the good 9th level spells that don't cost any/much xp or gp per use are great here. You want a versatile option, but most of the best 9th level spells are anyway. Special mention for Wu Jen and Body Outside Body, letting you make a clone army (the clones can't use your spells, but CAN use your SLAs...).

Spell Power is simple and effective. +1 CL is always welcome.

Not a fan of Arcane Reach. Tumbling ranks + Flyby Attack; a familiar; Spectral Hand; a metamagic rod of the feat that does the same thing... Too many other less costly options.

Mastery of Counterspelling, you basically need to heavily invest in counterspelling to make it decent. You definitely need Reactive Counterspell or a similar effect. I wouldn't bother with it.

Mastery of Elements...Energy Sub. metamagic rods are cheap and the feats themselves have 0 level adjustment. Not worth it.

Arcane Fire sucks. It's only "good" for a core-only Arcane Trickster build (to sneak attack with all day, but you lack access to Reserve feats and such), and such a person can't even get the slot to expend for AF until 20th level or so.

[SiuiS]

I like the spell-like ability one. It basically lets you trade up your spell slots, as long as you choose a spell above tier 5. For example, if you want greater dispel magic twice per day, you trade one tier 5 spell slot and one tier 6 spell slot. Now it's like you have two tier 6 slots!

Obviously it gets better as you choose a more powerful spell. It also works much better if you pick spells that you know you'll be casting at least twice per day.

Wait, there are spell tiers now? What are those?

[AngelOfFaith]

OK, I think get it - if I get a level in Archmage and a feat from Savage Species I'll be able to cast Wish as a standard action twice per day with no XP costs...

But heres the alternative: instead of getting Skill Focus and Spell Focus twice I could just get some feats like Craft Wondrous Item[PHB] so that I can get a lot of the items I'm missing for half price, Quick Recovery[LoM] in order to try and do some Celerity shenanigans and Extra Slot[CA](at lvl 18) so that I can feel like its Christmas again.

I'm sure the "You get a wish, and you get a wish..." build is more powerful, I'm just wondering which one you guys think is going to be more fun.