Is it worth multiclassing with Fighter as a War Cleric? Coolness > Optimization

[Windrammer]

What I'm doing is a wuxia polearm guy. Yes, Guan Yu. I have my feats and spell selection thought out already.

I'm pretty disinterested in the high level cleric spells with what I have in mind here, I just want to know how the spread should be or if I should multiclass at all. Extra Attack and Action Surge are potent abilities, and flavor-wise, I REALLY want those battlemaster maneuvers. But I can honestly just leave it at 3 levels for Fighter, I'll get everything I think I need except extra attack, and still get the level 17 archetype ability from Cleric (like I'll ever get that far). I have so many ways around extra attack... Polearm Master gets me D4 as bonus action, War Cleric extra attacks several times a day, Sweeping Attack maneuver to hit people every time I hit people (and with reach)... I think there was another, but you get the point.

What do you guys think, and do you have any tips?

Edit: I said I already had feats and spells thought out guys, although taking sentinel was already an object of debate for me. And I'm aware that the extra attack alternatives are conflicting bonus actions. I still get to add a D8 damage per turn when I hit something so it's fine.

[Maxilian]

What I'm doing is a wuxia polearm guy. Yes, Guan Yu. I have my feats and spell selection thought out already.

I'm pretty disinterested in the high level cleric spells with what I have in mind here, I just want to know how the spread should be or if I should multiclass at all. Extra Attack and Action Surge are potent abilities, and flavor-wise, I REALLY want those battlemaster maneuvers. But I can honestly just leave it at 3 levels for Fighter, I'll get everything I think I need except extra attack, and still get the level 17 archetype ability from Cleric (like I'll ever get that far). I have so many ways around extra attack... Polearm Master gets me D4 as bonus action, War Cleric extra attacks several times a day, Sweeping Attack maneuver to hit people every time I hit people (and with reach)... I think there was another, but you get the point.

What do you guys think, and do you have any tips?

Doesn't the War Cleric extra attack count as a bonus action? if that's the case, you won't be able to use the Polearm Master D4 bonus action (just 1 bonus action per turn), also... by Wuxia polearm guy what do you mean? i know that Wuxia is a chinese martial hero but that's a broad genre...

[WickerNipple]

What do you guys think, and do you have any tips?

I like War Cleric/Fighter quite a lot, but the advice I'd give depends on a lot on your party needs.

If your party needs a healer/full caster more than anything else, it's very easy to concentrate on cleric and dip 2-3 fighter whenever you please. There's not a lot of advice really necessary there, but you're going to get your various fighter tricks a lot later.

However, since you're not so concerned about the higher level cleric spells and seem more interested in your polearm/melee approach, I'd recommend against pitching yourself as a primary spellcaster to start with.

Anyone using a polearm is going to be one of the most feat starved of characters, and fighter levels are a good way to squeeze in more/earlier feat gains.

Personally, based on your character concept, I'd start as a Variant Human Fighter w/ Polearm feat. Then pick up a level of Cleric at 2 to cement your concept and get the war attacks/bless/emergency healing word.

I'd go straight to Fighter 6 after that, picking up extra attack and the extra feat. That puts you at Fighter 6/Cleric 1 @ lvl 7, netting you your second asi/feat a level before everyone else.

Then go cleric and start expanding your caster potential.


Doesn't the War Cleric extra attack count as a bonus action? if that's the case, you won't be able to use the Polearm Master D4 bonus action (just 1 bonus action per turn)

It does, yes. He won't be able to get the extra d4 attack on turns he uses the war power, but that's only Wis/Day - he'll use those few more powerful attacks at particular nova times.

[Human Paragon 3]

I recommend taking fighter to 5 for the extra attack and ability boost if you do this.

[Finieous]

Yes, it's worth it. Apart from all other pros and cons, a high-level straight cleric (of any domain) is usually going to be better off casting spells than fighting in melee. If you want to fight, at some point (no later than Cleric 9) you want to replace cleric levels with fighter levels.

Having said that, I'm not sure polearm fighter offers the best synergy: Polearm Master, War Cleric, and Spiritual Weapon will all be competing for your bonus action. I also greatly prefer Eldritch Knight to Battlemaster, for 1/3 caster levels, combat spells like shield and mirror image, War Magic, and Eldritch Strike. YMMV.

[Person_Man]

Its not a bad choice. But I personally would not do it.

More specifically, I generally optimize for long/hard/boss battles, so that I can pull out massive damage and awesome effects when I really need them, rather then all-day/at-will damage. If you increase the all-day/at-will effectiveness of your build by X%, the DM is likely to (consciously or unconsciously) increase the overall difficulty of his encounters by X%.

A strait Cleric is likely going to have worse at-will damage then a Fighter/Cleric. And yes, Action Surge is awesome for burst damage or whatever once per Short Rest. But a strait Cleric is going to have higher level spells and more of them, which gives him a lot more resources to draw upon in those long/hard/boss battles when he really needs them.

For example, I would encourage you to take a second look at Spiritual Weapon (which adds damage every round as a Bonus Action and does not require Concentration) and Spirit Guardian (which reduces enemy movement and adds even more damage, but requires Concentration). Both of them can be cast out of higher level slots for scaled damage. (And obviously, if you have higher level spell slots, you also have access to more uber higher level spells also).

[GiantOctopodes]

Yes, it's worth it. Apart from all other pros and cons, a high-level straight cleric (of any domain) is usually going to be better off casting spells than fighting in melee. If you want to fight, at some point (no later than Cleric 9) you want to replace cleric levels with fighter levels.

Having said that, I'm not sure polearm fighter offers the best synergy: Polearm Master, War Cleric, and Spiritual Weapon will all be competing for your bonus action. I also greatly prefer Eldritch Knight to Battlemaster, for 1/3 caster levels, combat spells like shield and mirror image, War Magic, and Eldritch Strike. YMMV.

In terms of competing for your bonus action, personally I like to have as many options as possible, and getting a bonus action attack (if you're so inclined) Every Round vs just (max) 5x per day is a great thing in my book. Also, the more important part of polearm master is getting the AoO when they enter your reach, to use with Sentinel. A Cleric with Polearm Master and Sentinel can be truly terrifying, and with Spirit Guardians in effect, can be a *strong* battlefield controller, something he is obviously looking for.

To facilitate that controller role, yes, Fighter would work. And yes, Action Surge is great. Certainly as well, Battlemaster provides nice control options. However, I will say this- as a feat dependent build (you need two of them that I know of, and probably want more) in a MAD class, you don't want to short yourself those Ability Score Increases. Also, Extra Attack is *way* more powerful in your hands than I think you're giving it credit for. It stacks with *everything*, so it's not like the bonus action attack is a replacement for it, you would then get 3 attacks instead of 2, a 50% damage increase, and perhaps most importantly, it triggers any on hit effects that may be going on, such as Crusader's Mantle or whatever else may be in effect. However, I am a firm believer that no Cleric should fail to get at least 7th level spells by the end of their career (Plane Shift and Ressurrection are simply too important in what they provide to the party), so I would take no more than 6 levels of dip.

Now, another option would be to take Open Hand Monk instead of fighter. It fits the whole theme, and there are several important things to note:
1) Flurry of Blows does not require the use of a Monk weapon when making the initial attack
2) Deflect Missiles does not require a free hand
3) Unarmed attacks as a monk can be keyed to Dex -OR- Str, your choice.
Sure, you don't get the bonus movement speed, and the unarmored defense doesn't apply (unless of course your Dex and Wis are high enough to make it better, but that's very unlikely and very late game), but it does provide you with this:
- More options for your reaction, and a reduction in ranged damage when approaching an enemy position
- 3-5 attacks which give you controller options each short rest (equivalent to what you'd gain as a battle master), which can either be used on two different targets, or doubled up on the same one, tripping, pushing, or denying reactions (or some combination thereof) to a target. There is a disadvantage in that these must be done from within 5', whereas the battlemaster ones can all be done with your weapon at 10' away, but still- double the number of targets or effects in return
- The ability to Stun targets with your melee weapon attacks.
- More attacks, more damage! Those same controller hits come with increasing your potential number of attacks per turn from 2 (now) to 4 (at Monk 5). When using Crusader's Mantle, as an example, that means your damage per turn is going from 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d4+1d4+Mod (or 1d8+1d4+Mod with spiritual weapon) to 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d6+1d4+Mod + 1d6+1d4+Mod (going from 19 to 40 with 16 Str, outright doubling it). The higher your Str, the more it's worth it to go Monk vs Fighter. So get yourself one of those belts of 19 Str ASAP.

You already have the Wis for MCing Monk, so if you have 13 Dex (not at all guaranteed) I would strongly advise you to at least look it over and think it over, I feel it could be a really cool character. If you don't have the Dex for it, I'm not going to advise you to spread your stats around further for it. If going Monk, 5 levels is absolutely what you want to take. If going Fighter, personally I'd recommend 6 levels, for the Extra Attack and the Ability Score Increase. Just some things to think about.

[Finieous]

In terms of competing for your bonus action, personally I like to have as many options as possible, and getting a bonus action attack (if you're so inclined) Every Round vs just (max) 5x per day is a great thing in my book.

It's not just War Priest -- it's spiritual weapon. My war cleric has the spell up in every non-trivial battle, so that takes care of my bonus action attack. Multiple options are great when they're complimentary (e.g. Uncanny Dodge or Sentinel for your reaction). Not so much when they're redundant.

Finally, I wouldn't use precious feats for battlefield control in a fighter/cleric build. I'd use feats for it in a build (e.g. straight fighter) that doesn't have terrific control spells.

ETA: I'm not sure who you're responding to with the Extra Attack stuff. Despite the fact that you've quoted me, I don't think you're responding to me there...but I'm not sure. Just in case, my preferred build is Cleric 9/Fighter 11 (EK) for two Extra Attacks.

[GiantOctopodes]

It's not just War Priest -- it's spiritual weapon. My war cleric has the spell up in every non-trivial battle, so that takes care of my bonus action attack. Multiple options are great when they're complimentary (e.g. Uncanny Dodge or Sentinel for your reaction). Not so much when they're redundant.

Finally, I wouldn't use precious feats for battlefield control in a fighter/cleric build. I'd use feats for it in a build (e.g. straight fighter) that doesn't have terrific control spells.

ETA: I'm not sure who you're responding to with the Extra Attack stuff. Despite the fact that you've quoted me, I don't think you're responding to me there...but I'm not sure. Just in case, my preferred build is Cleric 9/Fighter 11 (EK) for two Extra Attacks.


Yeah, really just the first paragraph was in response to you, the rest was to the OP and the thread in general :smallsmile:

In terms of using feats for battlefield control, why not? Being able to stop enemies in their tracks is a remarkably powerful ability, and he already has half of it. Combine with Spirit Guardians, and suddenly the area around him is a killing field, wherein enemies crawl around, stuck between 15' and 10' away from him and getting wailed on by him and his allies and celestial guardians besides. If that's not a cool way to control the battlefield, my coolness meter is broken. I'll also point out that an essential part of battlefield control is keeping people where you want them, and sentinel is the absolutely best way to do that, tied only with grappling.

In terms of spiritual weapon, I totally understand that, and spiritual weapon is indeed an awesome spell, even if it's not quite as good as the druid or wizard summoning options, and it's a great use of a bonus action. Not as good as flurry of blows, but clearly superior to the polearm master extra attack on a variety of levels. It still requires a 2nd level+ spell slot, but your point is totally fair and valid. Nonetheless, were I him, and were I someone who wanted to make a polearm wielding cleric battlefield controller, sentinel and polearm master would be my first two ASI choices.

[Finieous]

Yeah, really just the first paragraph was in response to you, the rest was to the OP and the thread in general :smallsmile:


Cool, I figured but wanted to make sure.



In terms of using feats for battlefield control, why not?

Because I have spells for control, which allows me to use my precious ASIs elsewhere.

[Windrammer]

Doesn't the War Cleric extra attack count as a bonus action? if that's the case, you won't be able to use the Polearm Master D4 bonus action (just 1 bonus action per turn), also... by Wuxia polearm guy what do you mean? i know that Wuxia is a chinese martial hero but that's a broad genre...

I know. Polearm master, however, is unlimited per encounter.

[Windrammer]

Its not a bad choice. But I personally would not do it.

More specifically, I generally optimize for long/hard/boss battles, so that I can pull out massive damage and awesome effects when I really need them, rather then all-day/at-will damage. If you increase the all-day/at-will effectiveness of your build by X%, the DM is likely to (consciously or unconsciously) increase the overall difficulty of his encounters by X%.

A strait Cleric is likely going to have worse at-will damage then a Fighter/Cleric. And yes, Action Surge is awesome for burst damage or whatever once per Short Rest. But a strait Cleric is going to have higher level spells and more of them, which gives him a lot more resources to draw upon in those long/hard/boss battles when he really needs them.

For example, I would encourage you to take a second look at Spiritual Weapon (which adds damage every round as a Bonus Action and does not require Concentration) and Spirit Guardian (which reduces enemy movement and adds even more damage, but requires Concentration). Both of them can be cast out of higher level slots for scaled damage. (And obviously, if you have higher level spell slots, you also have access to more uber higher level spells also).

Those are the War Cleric domain spells, I recognize their merit but don't have a choice in having access to them haha.

And if I go cleric 17, I'll have access to ninth level. I'll be content with just one pick among those spells for this build, as I'm only picking spells that work for my combat flavor.

[Windrammer]

In terms of competing for your bonus action, personally I like to have as many options as possible, and getting a bonus action attack (if you're so inclined) Every Round vs just (max) 5x per day is a great thing in my book. Also, the more important part of polearm master is getting the AoO when they enter your reach, to use with Sentinel. A Cleric with Polearm Master and Sentinel can be truly terrifying, and with Spirit Guardians in effect, can be a *strong* battlefield controller, something he is obviously looking for.

To facilitate that controller role, yes, Fighter would work. And yes, Action Surge is great. Certainly as well, Battlemaster provides nice control options. However, I will say this- as a feat dependent build (you need two of them that I know of, and probably want more) in a MAD class, you don't want to short yourself those Ability Score Increases. Also, Extra Attack is *way* more powerful in your hands than I think you're giving it credit for. It stacks with *everything*, so it's not like the bonus action attack is a replacement for it, you would then get 3 attacks instead of 2, a 50% damage increase, and perhaps most importantly, it triggers any on hit effects that may be going on, such as Crusader's Mantle or whatever else may be in effect. However, I am a firm believer that no Cleric should fail to get at least 7th level spells by the end of their career (Plane Shift and Ressurrection are simply too important in what they provide to the party), so I would take no more than 6 levels of dip.

Now, another option would be to take Open Hand Monk instead of fighter. It fits the whole theme, and there are several important things to note:
1) Flurry of Blows does not require the use of a Monk weapon when making the initial attack
2) Deflect Missiles does not require a free hand
3) Unarmed attacks as a monk can be keyed to Dex -OR- Str, your choice.
Sure, you don't get the bonus movement speed, and the unarmored defense doesn't apply (unless of course your Dex and Wis are high enough to make it better, but that's very unlikely and very late game), but it does provide you with this:
- More options for your reaction, and a reduction in ranged damage when approaching an enemy position
- 3-5 attacks which give you controller options each short rest (equivalent to what you'd gain as a battle master), which can either be used on two different targets, or doubled up on the same one, tripping, pushing, or denying reactions (or some combination thereof) to a target. There is a disadvantage in that these must be done from within 5', whereas the battlemaster ones can all be done with your weapon at 10' away, but still- double the number of targets or effects in return
- The ability to Stun targets with your melee weapon attacks.
- More attacks, more damage! Those same controller hits come with increasing your potential number of attacks per turn from 2 (now) to 4 (at Monk 5). When using Crusader's Mantle, as an example, that means your damage per turn is going from 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d4+1d4+Mod (or 1d8+1d4+Mod with spiritual weapon) to 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d10+1d4+Mod + 1d6+1d4+Mod + 1d6+1d4+Mod (going from 19 to 40 with 16 Str, outright doubling it). The higher your Str, the more it's worth it to go Monk vs Fighter. So get yourself one of those belts of 19 Str ASAP.

You already have the Wis for MCing Monk, so if you have 13 Dex (not at all guaranteed) I would strongly advise you to at least look it over and think it over, I feel it could be a really cool character. If you don't have the Dex for it, I'm not going to advise you to spread your stats around further for it. If going Monk, 5 levels is absolutely what you want to take. If going Fighter, personally I'd recommend 6 levels, for the Extra Attack and the Ability Score Increase. Just some things to think about.

Hmm... I considered monk but was uncertain about what I would abilities I would and would not benefit from. While I see it's merit I'm reluctant to part from the ever flavorful maneuvers of battlmaster. But these responses have swayed me towards putting more levels outside if cleric, though I think I'm sticking with fighter.

What do you guys think of Cleric 8/Fighter 12? Again, I'm not overly concerned with being denied spells, this is far more a martial character than anything else.

[Finieous]

Really just a matter of whether you prefer 5th level spells (with Cleric 9/Fighter 11) or the ASI (Cleric 8/Fighter 12). If you go Eldritch Knight, you'll have 12th level caster spell slots either way.