Recurring Enemies

[DarkOne-Rob]

How do you handle it when your PCs (good-aligned) have grudges with NPCs who either escaped or from whom the PCs escaped? As the PCs level, do you level up the NPCs to keep them capable of being a meaningful fight, or do you simply write them out of campaigns when their role is over?

Specifically, in my Age of Worms campaign Kullen's gang, Filge the Necromancer, and a lizardfolk band-leader have gotten away or not been killed for one reason or another. I am not sure how to best reward the PCs for success while still using these NPCs (and the emotional impact they elicit) well. I may develop a similar problem in a Savage Tides game (with mostly the same players) and Soller Vark (from the very first encounter).

Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!

[Red Fel]

Short version? It depends.

First rule, I endeavor to not make NPCs (other than the BBEG himself) vital to the plot. Even with the BBEG, I usually have a contingency in place to keep the campaign from ending too early. So nobody gets plot armor - even if I make an NPC a recurring menace, if he dies, he dies, unless someone has a specific reason to bring him back. (Of course, if the PCs never bother to confirm that he actually died...) So I don't necessarily have many recurring NPCs, if for no other reason than the occasionally trigger-happy PC.

Now, as for whether I choose to bring back an NPC who has outlived his usefulness to the plot yet somehow survived, that depends on several factors.

First, is there any reason he would return? Grudges aside, he lost once - a remotely reasonable mind could safely infer that another loss would occur under the same circumstances. Would the BBEG have further use for him? Would he be on a completely unrelated task and accidentally run into the PCs? Or is he just dumb enough to seek revenge?

Second, did the players enjoy him? If he was completely unmemorable, there's no reason they have to face him specifically - it could be anybody, really. If the players remember him fondly, there is the potential for humor - for instance, they run into him trying to rob somebody, he turns and sees them, goes pale, and tries to run for it. If they remember him angrily, there is the potential for catharsis - they get to kick his duff again. But if there's no memory whatsoever, why bother?

Now, as to whether he levels up, that depends on those other two factors. If, for example, there are plot-related reasons to bring him back, would they require him to have grown stronger? Similarly, if the PCs met him again, whether I made him stronger would depend on the players' attitude - a humorous tone would have him just as pitiful as he was before, but moreso because the PCs have grown stronger while he hasn't. A violent tone would require him to have grown stronger, otherwise the ensuing curb-stomp would be less than satisfying.

I never write anything out, if it has any potential value to my players. But I don't bring it back if there's no reason to.

[LoyalPaladin]

Our DM for our Dragonlance game had us encounter Fu Master Toad in the very first fight of the game. That fat little hobgoblin fled and our DM would sprinkle him here and there over the course of the next 3 years. In the second to last session we FINALLY killed that thing. This resulted in the whole party basically screaming and yelling out of joy. So I think the real important question of having a recurring NPC is do your players care to have it.

[(Un)Inspired]

Our DM for our Dragonlance game had us encounter Fu Master Toad in the very first fight of the game. That fat little hobgoblin fled and our DM would sprinkle him here and there over the course of the next 3 years. In the second to last session we FINALLY killed that thing. This resulted in the whole party basically screaming and yelling out of joy. So I think the real important question of having a recurring NPC is do your players care to have it.

What were some of the techniques that your DM used to extricate the Toad from the PCs while you were trying to combat him? I have trouble keeping NPCs that go up against my party alive long enough for multiple encounters. Anytime one tries to escape like Cobra Commander my PCs go braserk on them with Dimensional Anchors, speed debuffs and hp damage.

[LoyalPaladin]

What were some of the techniques that your DM used to extricate the Toad from the PCs while you were trying to combat him? I have trouble keeping NPCs that go up against my party alive long enough for multiple encounters. Anytime one tries to escape like Cobra Commander my PCs go braserk on them with Dimensional Anchors, speed debuffs and hp damage.
Well since it was Dragonlance he was often surrounded by Dragons. We would HEAR about him a lot. He eventually became a high ranking official and the soldiers tended to complain about taking orders from a hobby. The first time we met him he was already too far away from that portion of our party. I think that added to it. He was always so tantalizingly close, but we couldn't get him. I remember having to SIT at the table with him and eat food because Kitiara invited us to dinner. Her brothers were in our party, so we were polite. We couldn't start a fight though because her dragon was in human form at the table and there were probably even more we didn't know about. There was also a enormous blue dragon on the roof. I'm getting worked up just thinking about that pompous little... hob... goblin...

[(Un)Inspired]

Well since it was Dragonlance he was often surrounded by Dragons. We would HEAR about him a lot. He eventually became a high ranking official and the soldiers tended to complain about taking orders from a hobby. The first time we met him he was already too far away from that portion of our party. I think that added to it. He was always so tantalizingly close, but we couldn't get him. I remember having to SIT at the table with him and eat food because Kitiara invited us to dinner. Her brothers were in our party, so we were polite. We couldn't start a fight though because her dragon was in human form at the table and there were probably even more we didn't know about. There was also a enormous blue dragon on the roof. I'm getting worked up just thinking about that pompous little... hob... goblin...

hmmm I know like zero about Dragon Lance. It's got a really annoying subrace of halfling in it, it started out as an actually group's homebrew campaign and the setting is like bonkers for dragons, right?

[Red Fel]

Well since it was Dragonlance he was often surrounded by Dragons. We would HEAR about him a lot. He eventually became a high ranking official and the soldiers tended to complain about taking orders from a hobby. The first time we met him he was already too far away from that portion of our party. I think that added to it. He was always so tantalizingly close, but we couldn't get him. I remember having to SIT at the table with him and eat food because Kitiara invited us to dinner. Her brothers were in our party, so we were polite. We couldn't start a fight though because her dragon was in human form at the table and there were probably even more we didn't know about. There was also a enormous blue dragon on the roof. I'm getting worked up just thinking about that pompous little... hob... goblin...

This is precisely it. You can't use mechanical methods, like spells or skills, to spirit your NPCs away - the PCs will find a way around them. As well they should. What you can use - and effectively - are social methods. Witnesses. Influential friends. Public spaces.

Think about the most infuriating recurring antagonists. They're able to recur for one of two reasons - either they're too powerful to stop, or they're too influential to be touched. In a game of rocket tag, your PCs will eventually get lucky and overpower the NPC; any sensible (and manipulative) antagonist would hide behind the impenetrable walls of social niceties instead. Heroes may kill your loyal minions, but they wouldn't dare confront you under the King's watchful eyes.

Which in turn makes an NPC more infuriatingly memorable, as LP's posts show.

[(Un)Inspired]

This is precisely it. You can't use mechanical methods, like spells or skills, to spirit your NPCs away - the PCs will find a way around them. As well they should. What you can use - and effectively - are social methods. Witnesses. Influential friends. Public spaces.

Think about the most infuriating recurring antagonists. They're able to recur for one of two reasons - either they're too powerful to stop, or they're too influential to be touched. In a game of rocket tag, your PCs will eventually get lucky and overpower the NPC; any sensible (and manipulative) antagonist would hide behind the impenetrable walls of social niceties instead. Heroes may kill your loyal minions, but they wouldn't dare confront you under the King's watchful eyes.

Which in turn makes an NPC more infuriatingly memorable, as LP's posts show.

Ok I get it. So you're saying that when my PCs stumble upon the evil wizard the can't just kill him because it turns out that he's secretly the president and they're at his dinner party!

[LoyalPaladin]

hmmm I know like zero about Dragon Lance. It's got a really annoying subrace of halfling in it, it started out as an actually group's homebrew campaign and the setting is like bonkers for dragons, right?
If you are ever looking for a really long but great campaign to play then you should consider DragonLance. Basically the whole premise is that the gods have abandoned Krynn because a group of mortals figured they were just as good as the gods. So they dropped a mountain on that group (literally) and left. So there is no divine magic at all. To top it off, the evil dragons have reappeared to take over the world. (All dragons were MIA for a long time) It is a pretty linear campaign and it takes you from 6-14. Our DM has been playing for a LONG time and had all the original materials, so he adapted them to 3.5 and we just played all the books. Minus some side quests. Super good game. I'd play it again in a heartbeat.


It's got a really annoying subrace of halfling in it
Don't even get me started on the Kender...



Which in turn makes an NPC more infuriatingly memorable, as LP's posts show.
Everyone HATES being railroaded in this game. But when an NPC is "railroading" you it is even worse for a totally different reason. Because it isn't your DM. It's a hobgoblin that has you on a leash... did I mention he was a hobgoblin...?

[Red Fel]

Ok I get it. So you're saying that when my PCs stumble upon the evil wizard the can't just kill him because it turns out that he's secretly the president and they're at his dinner party!

More like the fight gets interrupted by the King's Guard who are here to either (1) arrest the evil wizard; (2) rescue the evil wizard under the guise of arresting him; or (3) arrest you for attacking the evil wizard who is in fact in the King's employ.

Which then forces the PCs to decide if they really want to pick a fight with the King over this guy.

It's not a guarantee, of course - the players may well decide to kill bystanders anyway - but it forces them to think twice about it, in ways that typical mooks don't.

[Flickerdart]

NPCs are people too. If you were a warlord whose army was crushed and who had to flee in indignity, or a thief who managed to steal something from a notorious band of adventurers and lived to tell the tale, you would be painfully aware that these guys are still after you, and because of how adventurers work, are going to become a bigger threat as time goes by. If you're the first type of guy and want vengeance, you will make it your life's goal to not only keep up in levels but actually exceed the PCs in power. Next time you meet, they will rue the day they crossed you!

On the other hand, if it's the PCs who managed to escape - such as against a local noble who aimed to capture them or coerce them to do his bidding - then the NPC isn't too likely to change the way he operates. Some NPCs, especially those whose power bases weren't damaged, might go on as usual. Let's say your PCs got into a fight with Lord Dastardly in a tavern, and managed to defeat him in a duel or something. However, they have not touched Lord Dastardly's twelve regiments of heavy infantry that are currently stomping around the countryside to suppress dissent. If he is arrogant, Dastardly might explain the encounter away ("they were underhanded rogues and I am honourable" or "I was just too drunk to give it my all") and go back to crushing revolts. These are exactly the kind of cases where the NPC will stay at roughly the same level of power as time goes on, and the PCs should have a great old time wiping the smug grin off his face once they've gained a level or ten.

[Krobar]

If I'm using recurring NPC antagonists they are typically adventurers too, so they level up along with the PCs.

It keeps things interesting.

[Flickerdart]

If I'm using recurring NPC antagonists they are typically adventurers too, so they level up along with the PCs.
Really? I can see NPC adventurers as rivals, but most antagonists? Being an adventurer is great to make yourself strong, but it doesn't give you much influence or presence in the world at large, which are what I feel makes villains especially interesting. When the enemy is a king or something, the PCs can fight his armies, bribe his servants, infiltrate his court...other adventurers only do one thing and that thing is get in fights.

[Exegesis]

To recap:

1. Some characters escaped the PCs, which annoyed the PCs, and you want to bring the escapees back to capitalize on this emotional response.
2. But you're worried the NPCs wouldn't be a threat by the time they faced the PCs again.

The basic question would be “What would the NPCs do?", and since you've already decided you want them back in the story, you can add "What would they do that will bring them back in conflict with the PCs?"

Here's the thing.

If the PCs are annoyed that the NPCs escaped them, throwing the NPCs back in the PCs' lap to defeat is totally unsatisfying. Why? Because if the NPCs fled, their inferiority to the PCs is not what's in doubt. Killing the NPCs may be the prize (what a horrible game), but the challenge, the thing the PCs failed at, is catching them.

The right question, then, is what these NPCs can do that will bring them back to the PCs' attention, and what obstacles you can put between them.

Give the PCs a reason to hunt the NPCs, but don't pressure them to or make it essential to the plot that they do. The hunt is only sweet if they are the ones who choose it. They may not, that's fine, that's why you have other ideas hanging around.

In this case, the stats of the NPCs are irrelevant but likely more satisfying if kept low, since the fight with -them- is beside the point. Give them minions stronger than they are.

So that's one possible way this could go. There's another, and it's less juvenile: befriending your enemies. But the PCs have already proven themselves superior to the NPCs, so they're unlikely to accept any form of alliance. It wouldn't be an equal relationship. So the best way to do this would be to have the Ns do something to gain status in the PCs' eyes. This is more important than, though needn't replace, just having them increase in power. Because the issue is not specifically that they're weak, but that they lost status relative to the PCs by losing and running away.

[jedipotter]

How do you handle it when your PCs (good-aligned) have grudges with NPCs who either escaped or from whom the PCs escaped? As the PCs level, do you level up the NPCs to keep them capable of being a meaningful fight, or do you simply write them out of campaigns when their role is over?


Both. Some foes hang around and level up and are always in the way. Some fade into the background and get hear of from time to time. Some of them are unheard of, until they make a return.


What were some of the techniques that your DM used to extricate the Toad from the PCs while you were trying to combat him? I have trouble keeping NPCs that go up against my party alive long enough for multiple encounters. Anytime one tries to escape like Cobra Commander my PCs go braserk on them with Dimensional Anchors, speed debuffs and hp damage.

The trick here is to do it Cobra Commander style. The bad guy does not ''walk away at move 30'', they have a good escape ready.

Unless your running a super low magic world, it's not a big deal to give the bad guy foe a magic item or two to escape. A single potion, elixir, wand or other single use item works just great.

Also, don't have the foe wait until the fight is over to run....have them run in the middle of the fight. Or as soon as the PC's are distracted or unable to do anything.

And, as most fights happen in the bad guys lair....well you want to add in the Cobra Commander escape path, in advance. So the bad guy just needs to grab a spoon and fall through a trap door. Even if the PC's try to follow, it will take them a couple rounds...more then enough for them to get away.

And the decoy always works. Even with just normal disguise, but even more so with illusions, the bad guy can make mook #2 look just like them...and get caught.

And just for a bigger note, if your PC's really are over loaded with things to use...you might want to burn them out a bit more. Don't let them get to the final battle with 25 things left to use and at full health. Try for more the ''nothing left''. I try and go more for the ''one boot, one shoulder pad and one broken sword hilt'', but that is just me.

[(Un)Inspired]

The trick here is to do it Cobra Commander style. The bad guy does not ''walk away at move 30'', they have a good escape ready.

Unless your running a super low magic world, it's not a big deal to give the bad guy foe a magic item or two to escape. A single potion, elixir, wand or other single use item works just great.

Also, don't have the foe wait until the fight is over to run....have them run in the middle of the fight. Or as soon as the PC's are distracted or unable to do anything.

And, as most fights happen in the bad guys lair....well you want to add in the Cobra Commander escape path, in advance. So the bad guy just needs to grab a spoon and fall through a trap door. Even if the PC's try to follow, it will take them a couple rounds...more then enough for them to get away.

And the decoy always works. Even with just normal disguise, but even more so with illusions, the bad guy can make mook #2 look just like them...and get caught.

And just for a bigger note, if your PC's really are over loaded with things to use...you might want to burn them out a bit more. Don't let them get to the final battle with 25 things left to use and at full health. Try for more the ''nothing left''. I try and go more for the ''one boot, one shoulder pad and one broken sword hilt'', but that is just me.

That's good advice. I tend to run singular huge battles but I should run down my PCs a bit with smaller combats first.

[Krobar]

Really? I can see NPC adventurers as rivals, but most antagonists? Being an adventurer is great to make yourself strong, but it doesn't give you much influence or presence in the world at large, which are what I feel makes villains especially interesting. When the enemy is a king or something, the PCs can fight his armies, bribe his servants, infiltrate his court...other adventurers only do one thing and that thing is get in fights.

Adventurers make enemies; occasionally they're other adventurers. I don't use them all the time - just occasionally. Just often enough that the players wonder where and when they'll show up next. It keeps them on their toes.

[(Un)Inspired]

Really? I can see NPC adventurers as rivals, but most antagonists? Being an adventurer is great to make yourself strong, but it doesn't give you much influence or presence in the world at large, which are what I feel makes villains especially interesting. When the enemy is a king or something, the PCs can fight his armies, bribe his servants, infiltrate his court...other adventurers only do one thing and that thing is get in fights.

Think about a really classic example of a D&D style adventurer like Balto. Clearly his antagonist Steele is another adventurer. They clash over the course of the campaign several times and are clearly of at least comparable power even though they probably only have levels in tier 4-5 classes. The rivalry is direct and clearly speaks to something deep within the human soul we can all relate to.