I think Im playing Incantatrix wrong >.>

[Tabris92]

so, I was re-reading the incantatrix handbook posted by Malachei and I think I been making a mistake in my games.
From what I thought I understood about that incantatrix, I could just cast any spell with any meta magic feat applied and just make a spellcraft check to not use a higher level slot.
From what im seeing thats wrong I think.
But the part loses me is that in his handbook it lists off spells to persist going all the way up to 9th level. But how can you do that? persist is a +6 to the spell slot, so how would you cast a 15th level spell like that? you cant persist Shapechange for example, thatd be 15th level. :smallconfused:
I been playin in my sessions just casting maximized Isaacs greater missile storm (attuned to an empowered spellshard) and just making the spellcraft check and not having to use higher level slots. But now Im thinkin thats wrong, and I gravely misunderstood something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're not applying the metamagic during the casting process but adding it to the spell -after- it's already been cast. When you persist shapechange you're not casting a 15th level spell, you're casting a 9th level spell and then making it persistent with your incantatrix class feature.

It's a powerful feature but it's not going to make you into a mailman.

[Eldan]

Which Incantatrix are you using? There's two quite different classes by that name.

[eggynack]

But the part loses me is that in his handbook it lists off spells to persist going all the way up to 9th level. But how can you do that? persist is a +6 to the spell slot, so how would you cast a 15th level spell like that? you cant persist Shapechange for example, thatd be 15th level. :smallconfused:
It's not 15th level. As you noted, you're not using a higher level slot. That means, self evidently, that you're not using a higher level slot. Thus, you can apply persist to a 9th level spell, because you're still using a slot that exists, which is a 9th level slot. If an ability does not work like this, it will say so explicitly, as is the case with the feat metamagic song from races of stone. There's also the other issue, that metamagic effect only works on spells already in existence, but that's been noted.

[Tabris92]

It's not 15th level. As you noted, you're not using a higher level slot. That means, self evidently, that you're not using a higher level slot. Thus, you can apply persist to a 9th level spell, because you're still using a slot that exists, which is a 9th level slot. If an ability does not work like this, it will say so explicitly, as is the case with the feat metamagic song from races of stone. There's also the other issue, that metamagic effect only works on spells already in existence, but that's been noted.

so, I would instead cast a spell, and while its in effect (after casting is resolved) apply persistent meta magic to it instead?
Which means, I was using it wrong before in the case of "i cast quickened maximied IGMMS" and pass the check.
I swear, I dont know how I overlooked something like this :/
hard core derp right there

[eggynack]

so, I would instead cast a spell, and while its in effect (after casting is resolved) apply persistent meta magic to it instead?
Which means, I was using it wrong before in the case of "i cast quickened maximied IGMMS" and pass the check.

That's about the extent of it, yeah. Pretty ridiculously powerful in that form though, enough that it's often considered the capstone of the class.

[Jack_Simth]

That's about the extent of it, yeah. Pretty ridiculously powerful in that form though, enough that it's often considered the capstone of the class.
Capstone? It's the 3rd level ability, Metamagic effect. Not the worst place in the world to stop with the class if you have some reason to squeeze a lot of PrC's in (but there's more than enough reason to continue in the PrC, usually). The capstone is the metamagic reduction.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Capstone? It's the 3rd level ability, Metamagic effect. Not the worst place in the world to stop with the class if you have some reason to squeeze a lot of PrC's in (but there's more than enough reason to continue in the PrC, usually). The capstone is the metamagic reduction.

He means people consider it the best ability or 'capstone' of the class, because when you can ignore Metamagic cost altogether at level 3, why continue on just to reduce it?

[Necroticplague]

He means people consider it the best ability or 'capstone' of the class, because when you can ignore Metamagic cost altogether at level 3, why continue on just to reduce it?

Because it doesn't work for instantaneous spells (which, to the OP, means your use of it one Missile Storm isn't a legal one).

[eggynack]

Capstone? It's the 3rd level ability, Metamagic effect. Not the worst place in the world to stop with the class if you have some reason to squeeze a lot of PrC's in (but there's more than enough reason to continue in the PrC, usually). The capstone is the metamagic reduction.
If metamagic effect were on the 10th level, then it wouldn't be considered the capstone. It would just be the capstone. It's sometimes considered the capstone because it lets you persist whole piles o' stuff, and that's likely the best thing the class grants. You can continue on for more benefits, but you don't really have to.

[SiuiS]

Doesn't it bug anyone else that people miss that the male form is an incantator?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't it bug anyone else that people miss that the male form is an incantator?

Not in the least. It's just a class title. If anyone tried to google incantator they'd be sorely disappointed I suspect.

Besides, how do you know it's not grammatically correct to use incantatrix for both male and female in the language of whichever people developed the techniques? Just because it's wrong in english doesn't mean it is in common or mulan or whatever.

[Jack_Simth]

He means people consider it the best ability or 'capstone' of the class, because when you can ignore Metamagic cost altogether at level 3, why continue on just to reduce it?

If metamagic effect were on the 10th level, then it wouldn't be considered the capstone. It would just be the capstone. It's sometimes considered the capstone because it lets you persist whole piles o' stuff, and that's likely the best thing the class grants. You can continue on for more benefits, but you don't really have to.
Suppose you're facing a Wizard who has Shapechange up. Snatch Spell potentially just became an opposed caster level check or lose (the spell is on the wizard, and now that you've Snatched it, you can choose what form the Wizard takes... like, say, a Vampire Spawn if you're in sunlight, a Fire elemental in an underwater arena, a Thunderstone when near hard surfaces, whatever). Sieze Concentration is an amazing counter to Gating in really tough monsters, Summon Elemental Monolith, and quite a few other spells that are intended to be balanced by the extra action cost inherent in casting them. Oh yes, and the class grants four bonus metamagic feats if you stick with it (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th). Cooperative Metamagic lets you do some really fun things for your allied casters, and Instant Metamagic isn't exactly shabby either. That class is PACKED.

The requirements aren't overly hard to meet (three skills most Arcane casters will max out anyway, one wasted feat... which you can purchase if enough sources are permitted...) although the cost (a lost spell school) is a bit annoying.

[eggynack]

Suppose you're facing a Wizard who has Shapechange up. Snatch Spell potentially just became an opposed caster level check or lose (the spell is on the wizard, and now that you've Snatched it, you can choose what form the Wizard takes... like, say, a Vampire Spawn if you're in sunlight, a Fire elemental in an underwater arena, a Thunderstone when near hard surfaces, whatever). Sieze Concentration is an amazing counter to Gating in really tough monsters, Summon Elemental Monolith, and quite a few other spells that are intended to be balanced by the extra action cost inherent in casting them. Oh yes, and the class grants four bonus metamagic feats if you stick with it (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th). Cooperative Metamagic lets you do some really fun things for your allied casters, and Instant Metamagic isn't exactly shabby either. That class is PACKED.

The requirements aren't overly hard to meet (three skills most Arcane casters will max out anyway, one wasted feat... which you can purchase if enough sources are permitted...) although the cost (a lost spell school) is a bit annoying.
It's a great class overall. I wasn't disputing that to any extent. Metamagic effect is just, by far, the most useful ability the class offers, especially given how quickly you can pick it up. It makes a solid break point for the class, if you have something else to do with those levels.

[Gnome Alone]

Doesn't it bug anyone else that people miss that the male form is an incantator?

I was reading this and then right before I read your post I thought, "Incantatrix... does that mean the class is female only? That can't be right..." What a trip. So, to answer your question, yes, it apparently bugs me a little bit too.

[SiuiS]

Not in the least. It's just a class title. If anyone tried to google incantator they'd be sorely disappointed I suspect.

Besides, how do you know it's not grammatically correct to use incantatrix for both male and female in the language of whichever people developed the techniques? Just because it's wrong in english doesn't mean it is in common or mulan or whatever.

Because there is no real mulhorandi language. Or mulanese. And the class itself specifically calls out "(a male is an incatator)" in it's description.


I was reading this and then right before I read your post I thought, "Incantatrix... does that mean the class is female only? That can't be right..." What a trip. So, to answer your question, yes, it apparently bugs me a little bit too.

Vindication!

[KillianHawkeye]

The class description mentions that almost all of the people in it are women. I don't remember if they say why, but that's why the class uses the female form for its name. As mentioned, it does give the male version "incantator" for the rare case when a man takes the class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Strange. I checked my PGtF and didn't see any mention of incantator at all.

Still doesn't bug me.

[herrhauptmann]

I was reading this and then right before I read your post I thought, "Incantatrix... does that mean the class is female only? That can't be right..." What a trip. So, to answer your question, yes, it apparently bugs me a little bit too.

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one prestige class which is men only (among core and wellknown third party sources like Mongoose). But probably a dozen which are female only: Hathran, Swanmay, Beloved of Valerian are three.
For men? Court Eunuch I believe.

The line about men being Incantatars? Page 61 of PGtF on the right hand side of the page. Bottom of the second Incantatrix paragraph.


Why does it say that most are female? No idea, but I'm guessing it's a legacy thing from prior rulesets. In the Spellfire trilogy, Shandril is told her mother was an Incantatrix, which makes it the earliest published use of the word that I've seen; especially as it ties the -atrix suffix to a female. (but I did miss out on a lot of earlier FR novels) Also the -atrix suffix sounds cooler to my ears than the -atar.
Is there any chance the -atrix and -atar endings come about from bad latin/greek?

Side notes about the incanta-trix/tar.
I personally think that the level 2 ability probably gets the least use among players. And I really wish that the guides covered more than just "Use persist and win."