What are the limits of Remove Disease?

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm curious, should Remove Disease be capable of curing diseases other than those listed in the source books?

Could it, for instance, cure a cold?

A flu?

Could it remove non-magical tumors?

If we allow Remove Disease to cure diseases that haven't been described in the literature then how do we define "disease" for the purposes of the spell and why should we define it in said way?

I'm struggling here, please lend me your opinions.

[ngilop]

I'm curious, should Remove Disease be capable of curing diseases other than those listed in the source books?

Could it, for instance, cure a cold?

A flu?

Could it remove non-magical tumors?

If we allow Remove Disease to cure diseases that haven't been described in the literature then how do we define "disease" for the purposes of the spell and why should we define it in said way?

I'm struggling here, please lend me your opinions.


We might be looking at different Remove Disease, bt i'll quote the one formt he 3.5 D&D player's Handbook


Remove disease cures all diseases that the subject is suffering from. The spell also kills parasites, including green slime and others. Certain special diseases may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.

SO, for me I am at a loss on how one does not get that all diseases means simply all diseases, unless said disease specifically says' remove disease does not work, you need HEAL or better to cure it.

and for me since tumors are not a disease remove disease would no work.

I also would not consider genetic 'diseases' as cureable by remove disease, so yeah you got cystic fibrosis in D&D you gonna need a HEAL spell.

[(Un)Inspired]

So you would let Heal cure CF?

Wait if it says all diseases why wouldn't you let it cure Cystic Fibrosis?

These are the kind of problems I'm running into with the spell. How to decide exactly which diseases it can cure and which it can't.

[ngilop]

Because just because in popular nomenclature they are called genetic 'diseases' the correct termonology is disorder.


It not something you aquire because you did not bathe and/or clean yourself appropriately or ate the stuff that had green goop growing on it.

nah you were born with cystic fibrosis, down syndrome, and Rett syndrome. just like guy over there was born with blue eyes or black hair.

a geneti disorder is literally a part WHO you are. and would require magic capable of something much more powerful than a supernatural mega-vaccination.


take for example insanity, what does it take to remove that

what does it take to remove blindness? or other ill conditions one might be affected by?

if it takes the mighty heal to remove somebody being a bit on the loopy side, then for me it would take heal to change the very being ( well part of one's being) as well, cure disease just does not have the oomph required.

[(Un)Inspired]

Because just because in popular nomenclature they are called genetic 'diseases' the correct termonology is disorder.


It not something you aquire because you did not bathe and/or clean yourself appropriately or ate the stuff that had green goop growing on it.

nah you were born with cystic fibrosis, down syndrome, and Rett syndrome. just like guy over there was born with blue eyes or black hair.

a geneti disorder is literally a part WHO you are. and would require magic capable of something much more powerful than a supernatural mega-vaccination.


take for example insanity, what does it take to remove that

what does it take to remove blindness? or other ill conditions one might be affected by?

if it takes the mighty heal to remove somebody being a bit on the loopy side, then for me it would take heal to change the very being ( well part of one's being) as well, cure disease just does not have the oomph required.

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. Can you explain the distinction between a disease and a disorder a little more in this context?

What would be a strong concise way for defining disease as a thing that Remove Disease can take care of without straying into accidentally including things within the definition that Remove Disease should not be able to affect?

[Jeff the Green]

Because just because in popular nomenclature they are called genetic 'diseases' the correct termonology is disorder.

Nope.


Definition of DISEASE

: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms, and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors

Cancer, CF, and arthritis all count.

[(Un)Inspired]

Nope.



Cancer, CF, and arthritis all count.

Would you let Remove Disease cure cancer then? I'm not sure what to do.

[Gnome Alone]

Adventure hook idea: town with a cleric that has been Removing every Disease from anyone in it regardless of severity and has thus created either: a) super-charged diseases that are resistant to normal intercession, or b) people with tiny mewling kitten immune systems.

[Scorponok]

One of my players used this to cure an addiction to a powerful narcotic. He said addiction was a disease. I was like, "really?" I let it go because it wasn't an important part of the story but I'm beginning to think it set a bad precedent. I guess obesity isn't a problem in D&D either.

I also found the way to make a disease a real problem is to make enough people infected by it that the Cleric/Healer can't remove them all in one day, and people already cured get reinfected. Having just one major NPC have a disease to kick-start a quest won't work in your Cleric has Remove Disease. Obviously, make armies of Clerics rare and/or far enough away that the PCs can't just call for help.

[(Un)Inspired]

One of my players used this to cure an addiction to a powerful narcotic. He said addiction was a disease. I was like, "really?" I let it go because it wasn't an important part of the story but I'm beginning to think it set a bad precedent. I guess obesity isn't a problem in D&D either.

I completely understand your desire to limit what sorts of things Remove Disease can take care of but I'm just not sure where to draw the line and how to draw a line that isn't purely an arbitrary distinction.

[Flickerdart]

Would you let Remove Disease cure cancer then? I'm not sure what to do.
Why not? It's magic.

[Red Fel]

I completely understand your desire to limit what sorts of things Remove Disease can take care of but I'm just not sure where to draw the line and how to draw a line that isn't purely an arbitrary distinction.

I'd treat it like this: Remove Disease removes contracted illnesses, from bacteria, fungi, or viruses, unless they explicitly state that Remove Disease is ineffective. It does not remove inherited or similar genetic disorders, or conditions which arise from ordinary or extraordinary wear-and-tear on the body (such as arthritis, cancer, or ulcers). It also does not remove any condition derived from the consumption of a particular substance, such as alcohol, poison, or drugs. (There's a separate spell for those, if you recall.)

How's that?

[Jeff the Green]

One of my players used this to cure an addiction to a powerful narcotic. He said addiction was a disease. I was like, "really?" I let it go because it wasn't an important part of the story but I'm beginning to think it set a bad precedent. I guess obesity isn't a problem in D&D either.

Remove addiction is a 2nd-level spell.


I also found the way to make a disease a real problem is to make enough people infected by it that the Cleric/Healer can't remove them all in one day, and people already cured get reinfected. Having just one major NPC have a disease to kick-start a quest won't work in your Cleric has Remove Disease. Obviously, make armies of Clerics rare and/or far enough away that the PCs can't just call for help.

Or make it a plot device: The most powerful hierophants of every faith have examined the king and tried to cure his sniffles, but to no avail. There's rumor that this is actually the first symptoms of prosopometamorphopsia (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2014/12/05/prosopometamorphopsia-the-woman-who-saw-dragons), a disease known to be unresponsive to magic and only treatable with the stigma from the Riva lily. The heroes must quest to find the lily that was thought to grow only in the Riva marshes, which has been inundated with a plague of undead shamblers.


Would you let Remove Disease cure cancer then? I'm not sure what to do.

Yes. Unless it's plot cancer.


I'd treat it like this: Remove Disease removes contracted illnesses, from bacteria, fungi, or viruses, unless they explicitly state that Remove Disease is ineffective. It does not remove inherited or similar genetic disorders, or conditions which arise from ordinary or extraordinary wear-and-tear on the body (such as arthritis, cancer, or ulcers). It also does not remove any condition derived from the consumption of a particular substance, such as alcohol, poison, or drugs. (There's a separate spell for those, if you recall.)

How's that?

Gastric ulcers are the result of Helicobacter pylori infections.

[daryen]

Try this:
- You "caught" it: Flu, cold, infection, malaria, STD, etc. It can be removed with Remove Disease.
- Your body "just did it": Cancer, cyst, arthritis, etc. It can be fixed with Heal.
- You were born that way: Cystic Fibrosis, Down's syndrome, etc.: Wish or Miracle.

Do note that things like blindness can have multiple requirements depending on the cause.

Does that work?

Also, I completely agree that if you have an epidemic of, say, the flu. Remove Disease will cure that specific recipient, but they can immediately catch it again after that. So, dealing with a single case (or a string of single cases) of the flu isn't that hard for a single cleric (or acolyte), but an epidemic would still be extremely bad news.

[Red Fel]

Gastric ulcers are the result of Helicobacter pylori infections.

And after you remove the infection, you've still got these breaches in the lining of your stomach.

In that case, I'd rule that Remove Disease would pull a Frank N. Furter. "I'll remove the cause... But not the symptom!"

[Chronos]

I would argue that Remove Disease could take care of everything from a common cold to Stage IV cancer. But it can't take care of heritable diseases like muscular dystrophy or autism, as what those correspond to in the game world is just a really bad roll for ability scores. I also wouldn't let it cure arthritis, because what that corresponds to in the game world is the age penalty to dexterity. Even Miracle or Wish can't (safely) fix those conditions, except in so far as they can boost your ability scores back up a bit to compensate.

[Gnome Alone]

"I Wish my bones didn't ache so much."
"You are now a bone golem."
"Crap."

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd treat it like this: Remove Disease removes contracted illnesses, from bacteria, fungi, or viruses, unless they explicitly state that Remove Disease is ineffective. It does not remove inherited or similar genetic disorders, or conditions which arise from ordinary or extraordinary wear-and-tear on the body (such as arthritis, cancer, or ulcers). It also does not remove any condition derived from the consumption of a particular substance, such as alcohol, poison, or drugs. (There's a separate spell for those, if you recall.)

How's that?


Try this:
- You "caught" it: Flu, cold, infection, malaria, STD, etc. It can be removed with Remove Disease.
- Your body "just did it": Cancer, cyst, arthritis, etc. It can be fixed with Heal.
- You were born that way: Cystic Fibrosis, Down's syndrome, etc.: Wish or Miracle.

Do note that things like blindness can have multiple requirements depending on the cause.

Does that work?


Ok I like what direction you guys are going in and I want to agree but I'm unclear on a couple of points.

Isn't it unclear, in the case of most diseases, where the cause was external or internal? Like cancer, carcinogens lead to its acquisition but people are also genetically predisposed to it. How do you you decide what the spell can fix in these cases?

The other problem I'm having is a non-arbitrary explanation for why Remove Disease will cure some diseases and not others. I understand that this may not be possible but I'd like a reason for why it can rectify externally acquired ailments but not one that are born entirely internally. This can't purely be a power concern right? Curing arthritis seems far lower power than curing some of the exotic diseases that one can contract in a d&d world.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as incredibly nitpicky. I genuinely appreciate all the help that you guys are offering me.

EDIT:

I would argue that Remove Disease could take care of everything from a common cold to Stage IV cancer. But it can't take care of heritable diseases like muscular dystrophy or autism, as what those correspond to in the game world is just a really bad roll for ability scores. I also wouldn't let it cure arthritis, because what that corresponds to in the game world is the age penalty to dexterity. Even Miracle or Wish can't (safely) fix those conditions, except in so far as they can boost your ability scores back up a bit to compensate.

What if their are heritable diseases that aren't represented by other game mechanics?

[daryen]

Really, I doubt you will be able to find a "perfect" solution. We are struggling to fit modern understanding of medicine, genetics, and health into a Fantasy game. There are going to be rough edges on any solution, and lots of border cases where you just have to make a decision case-by-case. I doubt you can get something truly cut-n-dried.

The other thing is that why would anyone in the game world even *have* cancer, arthritis, CF, down's syndrome, or whatever else? There are no rules or even really any published thoughts on such things, anyway. So, to introduce such things in the first place will require house rules to do so. Just make sure those house rules include what it takes to fix/remove them. (If they can.)

[Flickerdart]

One of my players used this to cure an addiction to a powerful narcotic. He said addiction was a disease. I was like, "really?" I let it go because it wasn't an important part of the story but I'm beginning to think it set a bad precedent. I guess obesity isn't a problem in D&D either.
Obesity wasn't a very big deal for societies where subsistence agriculture was the main source of food, physical activity was required to do anything at all, and fasting was encouraged by the prevalent dogma. In D&D, as in our world's history, none but the very rich could ever afford to grow fat.