Magic mantle, transparency, and levels

[Chronos]

So, the Magic Mantle, from Complete Psionic, is somewhat popular among optimizers, since it says that you always treat magic and psionics as identical. This is often interpreted to mean, for instance, that boosts to caster level also increase manifester level, and vice-versa.

But this only applies to spells and powers, while there are many other forms of magic in the game (some of which did not exist when XPH or CPsi were published). Couldn't one, with equal justice, argue that it means that boosts to manifester level also increase, say, meldshaping level? Or even better, soul binding level? Or best of all, to all sorts of magic-using level at once? It seems like we've got the potential for some amazing multi-theurges here.

[(Un)Inspired]

Is the term "magic" defined anywhere in the game?

[Renen]

Yeh no. Cant double advance

[Necroticplague]

But this only applies to spells and powers, while there are many other forms of magic in the game (some of which did not exist when XPH or CPsi were published). Couldn't one, with equal justice, argue that it means that boosts to manifester level also increase, say, meldshaping level? Or even better, soul binding level? Or best of all, to all sorts of magic-using level at once? It seems like we've got the potential for some amazing multi-theurges here.

No, you couldn't remotely argue that on equal justice. The mantle lets you treat magic and psionics as identical. Meldshaping and Binding aren't magic. Magic is the things listed under the Magic Overview, which covers spellcasting. You have equal right to say it helps meldshaping as you do to say it help initiating.

[Chronos]

Meldshaping and soul binding are both supernatural, and supernatural abilities are magical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities). Initiating is, except where specified otherwise, extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities are nonmagical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities).

[Necroticplague]

Meldshaping and soul binding are both supernatural, and supernatural abilities are magical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities). Initiating is, except where specified otherwise, extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities are nonmagical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities).

They're magical, but they aren't magic.

[Renen]

Yeh. They arent magic, they are "like" magic. But being like magic is not enough.

[(Un)Inspired]

Like I asked earlier, is there a place where the rules explicitly say what "magic" is?

[Necroticplague]

Like I asked earlier, is there a place where the rules explicitly say what "magic" is?

Not explicitly, but a very good implicitly. The SRD has a section called "Magic Overview". This section covers the spellcasting system. Thus, is appears that spellcasting is magic.

[(Un)Inspired]

Not explicitly, but a very good implicitly. The SRD has a section called "Magic Overview". This section covers the spellcasting system. Thus, is appears that spellcasting is magic.

Cool. That's what I thought. So By RAW looks like Magic Mantle works with a lot of stuff.

[Chronos]

OK, spellcasting is magic. That doesn't say that nothing else is. And you can't argue "Well if they wanted those other things to count as magic, they'd have mentioned them in the Magic Overview", because they didn't exist at the time. And there are plenty of places that say that soul binding and meldshaping are magic, and nowhere that says that they're not.

[Necroticplague]

Cool. That's what I thought. So By RAW looks like Magic Mantle works with a lot of stuff.Or, alternatively, it doesn't work on anything, since they don't define what magic is, and thus it can't be said to apply to anything.


OK, spellcasting is magic. That doesn't say that nothing else is.
That's not how dnd rules work. By default, nothing is anything until its said to be something, and you can't do anything unless it says you can. "It doesn't say they aren't", doesn't mean they are. The book also doesn't say that fighters don't trigger massive damage, regardless of amount of damage caused, but that doesn't mean we assume they do, do we?


And you can't argue "Well if they wanted those other things to count as magic, they'd have mentioned them in the Magic Overview", because they didn't exist at the time. And there are plenty of places that say that soul binding and meldshaping are magic, and nowhere that says that they're not.

Actually, meldshaping is specifically called out as not magic.
Like the Expanded Psionics Handbook, this book presents a new system that is similar to magic but different
If its similar to magic, then it isn't magic.

Also, note that Magic of Incarnum has a section in it labeled 'Magic', starting on page 95. And it covers, guess what? Spells!

[squiggit]

Meldshaping and soul binding are both supernatural, and supernatural abilities are magical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities). Initiating is, except where specified otherwise, extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities are nonmagical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities).

Bo9S explicitly refers to initiating as Blade Magic though. So I don't see how you can argue it doesn't work.

[Chronos]

Ah, OK, given that statement, it seems that meldshaping doesn't count as magic. Is there any similar statement about pact magic? I'm not finding it, if so.