[3.5] Rules not discussed by RAW (or at least as far as I can tell)

[Frostthehero]

Can I get some rules for:
1: Marriage (without making it super awkward for the DM)
2: throwing other characters
3: I forgot this one.

[Flickerdart]

Just like in our Earth cultures, marriage laws and customs heavily depend on in-setting cultures, and have nothing to do with rules.

As for throwing another character, there are feats for that (Fling Ally, Fling Enemy) as well as maneuvers in Tome of Battle.

[Chronos]

Marriage: The characters agree to get married, and go to an appropriate member of the clergy or official of the government to get it made official. Optionally, they may choose to invite a bunch of friends and family along and throw a big party.

Is there any gap left in that rule? Is there anything that wasn't completely obvious about it?

[Vhaidara]

Well, you see, if you get married by an 18th level or higher cleric, they can use Miracle to make your marriage something truly special. They can turn you and your spouse into a Dvati twin pair. Now the two of you literally share a soul and cannot live without each other.

[Jeraa]

Marriage: The characters agree to get married, and go to an appropriate member of the clergy or official of the government to get it made official. Optionally, they may choose to invite a bunch of friends and family along and throw a big party.

Is there any gap left in that rule? Is there anything that wasn't completely obvious about it?

You forgot the part about, if the marriage ends in divorce, the male character has to give half his Wealth By Level to the female character.

[(Un)Inspired]

Well, you see, if you get married by an 18th level or higher cleric, they can use Miracle to make your marriage something truly special. They can turn you and your spouse into a Dvati twin pair. Now the two of you literally share a soul and cannot live without each other.

Is it gross or hot if a dvati is making out with itself?


EDIT: Ugh that's totally a false dichotomy; it could easily be both gross and hot.

[Gnome Alone]

Can I get some rules for:
1: Marriage (without making it super awkward for the DM)
2: throwing other characters

I really hope you intend to use these two things in conjunction.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can I get some rules for:

Okay let's see.


1: Marriage (without making it super awkward for the DM)

..... :smallconfused: why would this need rules? It's just a religious ritual that doesn't actually have any supernatural effects. A religious leader of some sort says a few words in front of the couple and maybe some witnesses and just like that you're hitched. Maybe, if you feel like being extra flavorful, you require it be a servant of a deity that's into the whole marriage thing and have the married couple cursed if they break their vows or something.


2: throwing other characters

There's the aforementioned fling enemy and fling ally feats and there's one place somewhere that suggests that you can throw an enemy if you can achieve a pin against them in a grapple.


3: I forgot this one.

That's unfortunate.

[Chronos]

Oh, right, there's a RAW answer for #3, also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm).

[Gnome Alone]

Oh, right, there's a RAW answer for #3, also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm).

Wow, that spell is horrifying. And really useful. It's horrifuseful.

[SiuiS]

Well, you see, if you get married by an 18th level or higher cleric, they can use Miracle to make your marriage something truly special. They can turn you and your spouse into a Dvati twin pair. Now the two of you literally share a soul and cannot live without each other.

1e (and maybe 2e) included the consecration of oaths such as specifically marriages, as cleric and Druid orisons.


Is it gross or hot if a dvati is making out with itself?


EDIT: Ugh that's totally a false dichotomy; it could easily be both gross and hot.

I'm glad you came to your senses.


I really hope you intend to use these two things in conjunction.

Ah, the good ol' sport of Wife Throwing. Many a dark and Eldritch crystal power has fallen to it's mightyness.

[Vhaidara]

Ah, the good ol' sport of Wife Throwing. Many a dark and Eldritch crystal power has fallen to it's mightyness.

Hey, we're open. We changed the name to "Spouse Throwing" to allow for relationships where the wife feels like doing the throwing. Or for homosexual couples where there are two husbands. Or for the other categories that seem to subdivide every time I find a complete listing.

[Snowbluff]

Wow, that spell is horrifying. And really useful. It's horrifuseful.

Well, that's the nice version. Programmed Amnesia, and it's non-PC cousin Mind Rape are very useful spells.

[Gnome Alone]

Well, that's the nice version. Programmed Amnesia, and it's non-PC cousin Mind Rape are very useful spells.

Memory is, like, who we are, maaaaaan

[SiuiS]

Hey, we're open. We changed the name to "Spouse Throwing" to allow for relationships where the wife feels like doing the throwing. Or for homosexual couples where there are two husbands. Or for the other categories that seem to subdivide every time I find a complete listing.

But the name is traditional! You can remove the gender requirements, you can make it so you're not tossing a horned pastel pink Pegasus like a winged lawn dart, you can even remove the magic of true love, but for goodness sales man, leave the name!


Memory is, like, who we are, maaaaaan

Luckily, it's possible to use easy access (well, "easy") to reestablished your true memory.

[hewhosaysfish]

Ah, the good ol' sport of Wife Throwing. Many a dark and Eldritch crystal power has fallen to it's mightyness.

"What do you mean, you have this field booked?! We're running the Wife Carrying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife-carrying) race here this afternoon!"
"No! If you look at the site map, it clearly shows that we're doing the caber toss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss) at 2!"
"Well, we're not leaving!"

And thus a legend was born.

[Wardog]

..... :smallconfused: why would this need rules? It's just a religious ritual that doesn't actually have any supernatural effects.

Given that the gods unambiguously exist, and prayers are answered (as immediately and specifically as "Oh Lord, smite the third orc on the right with a pillar of fire"), maybe it should have a supernatural effect.


(E.g. you a health/fertility buff for as long as you remain faithful, and/or some sort of punishment if you don't).

[Flickerdart]

Given that the gods unambiguously exist, and prayers are answered (as immediately and specifically as "Oh Lord, smite the third orc on the right with a pillar of fire"), maybe it should have a supernatural effect.


(E.g. you a health/fertility buff for as long as you remain faithful, and/or some sort of punishment if you don't).
Except D&D gods very rarely interfere directly in any sort of matter, and instead prefer to delegate getting things done to their clerics. So yes, the local priest might bless or chastise you as he sees fit, but it's up to him.

[SiuiS]

There's a relevant argument that cleric spells are formula-based requests for intercession.

[Red Fel]

The only RAW I know about marriages is that any religious official overseeing a wedding is required to have a serious speech impediment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbqv3MwwVd8). Pretty sure that's a RAW requirement.

With regard to spouse throwing, you know adventuring couples use Tactical Spouse Chucking (TSC) methods when engaging enemies in hazardous terrain. It's in Chapter 4 of the Book of Holy Matrimonies (the section on "Using a Spouse in Combat").

Insert vacuous homily about "the couple that slays together" here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ah, the good ol' sport of Wife Throwing. Many a dark and Eldritch crystal power has fallen to it's mightyness.

Was that an MLP reference? Because that is exactly what happened.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Given that the gods unambiguously exist, and prayers are answered (as immediately and specifically as "Oh Lord, smite the third orc on the right with a pillar of fire"), maybe it should have a supernatural effect.


(E.g. you a health/fertility buff for as long as you remain faithful, and/or some sort of punishment if you don't).

Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with the underlined.

Less than 1% of the population of the world is comprised of those whose prayers are answered with spells. Even then those answers are earned by service to the deity in question.

Given that there are so extremely few people that interact directly with the divine, the fact that they often give conflicting accounts (clergy of good deities bad-mouthing and denying the claims of evil ones and vice-versa), that there are clerics that serve no deity, and, most damningly, the fact that arcanists can accomplish most of the same 'miracles' makes the existence of gods likely but seriously muddled.

[SiuiS]

Was that an MLP reference? Because that is exactly what happened.

Yup.


Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with the underlined.

Less than 1% of the population of the world is comprised of those whose prayers are answered with spells. Even then those answers are earned by service to the deity in question.

Given that there are so extremely few people that interact directly with the divine, the fact that they often give conflicting accounts (clergy of good deities bad-mouthing and denying the claims of evil ones and vice-versa), that there are clerics that serve no deity, and, most damningly, the fact that arcanists can accomplish most of the same 'miracles' makes the existence of gods likely but seriously muddled.

Divine intervention rules. Someone who is pious enough or in enough need can pray for and recieve intercession in the form of a summon monster or planar ally from the deity in line with the power of the necessary boon. Followr of pelor has problems with crops? A planar ally with a Druid level can help.

The existence of arcane magic doesn't conflict with divine either; they're just willing to use methods that don't call down divine authority.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Divine intervention rules. Someone who is pious enough or in enough need can pray for and recieve intercession in the form of a summon monster or planar ally from the deity in line with the power of the necessary boon. Followr of pelor has problems with crops? A planar ally with a Druid level can help.

Where are these found? I've occasionally ruled that such things happen when the adventure is important enough to the god in question but I'm not aware of any guidelines to that effect printed anywhere?


The existence of arcane magic doesn't conflict with divine either; they're just willing to use methods that don't call down divine authority.

Not inherently but whenever an enterprising enchanter, illusionist, or beguiler wants to build a cult around himself as a road to temporal power it muddies the waters. Any outside observer can also deny the deific source of clerics' power by highlighting the point I made; wizards can do most of the same things and they don't claim gods are backing them. Some of them may even be atheists or defiants.

[Frostthehero]

By marriage, I meant everything it entails, such as flirting, courtship, actual marriage, pregnancy, children, etc. Can I get help with this?

[Vhaidara]

Again, that's the roleplay aspect. I mean, you could call it a series of diplomacy checks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By marriage, I meant everything it entails, such as flirting, courtship, actual marriage, pregnancy, children, etc. Can I get help with this?

That's just normal character interactions; diplomacy, sense motive, perform (romantic date), and so on.

I suppose that if you absolutely -have- to use something, you can adapt the rules from BoED for converting someone from evil. Stretch the checks out to over a week or two between checks but otherwise just change the results from moving along the alignment axis to progressing along a something like a "friend, dating, boy/girlfriend, engagement, marriage" type of path.

[Flickerdart]

By marriage, I meant everything it entails, such as flirting, courtship, actual marriage, pregnancy, children, etc. Can I get help with this?
The (awful and 3rd party) books Book of Erotic Fantasy and Bastards and Bloodlines will give you everything you need for this, although it's so pointless that I can't see why you would bother.

[heavyfuel]

Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with the underlined.

Less than 1% of the population of the world is comprised of those whose prayers are answered with spells. Even then those answers are earned by service to the deity in question.

Given that there are so extremely few people that interact directly with the divine, the fact that they often give conflicting accounts (clergy of good deities bad-mouthing and denying the claims of evil ones and vice-versa), that there are clerics that serve no deity, and, most damningly, the fact that arcanists can accomplish most of the same 'miracles' makes the existence of gods likely but seriously muddled.

Adepts cast divine spells, and as an NPC class, there's probably quite a bit of them in any given setting.

Also, any person that has at least one rank in Spellcraft knows for a fact that divine spells exist, this can also be applied to UMD and some Knowledge skills (local and religion mostly).

Then, between Druids, Clerics, Archivists, Divine Bards, Favored Souls, Mystic Rangers and higher levels Paladins and Rangers, the population that has had prayers answered is higher than 1%, and the percentage of the population who at least knows someone with a direct connection to the divine is closer to 100% than it is to 1%.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Adepts cast divine spells, and as an NPC class, there's probably quite a bit of them in any given setting.

Nope. 0.5% of those left over after determining higher than first level NPC classes and all PC classes. They don't add significantly to the overall population of divine casters.


Also, any person that has at least one rank in Spellcraft knows for a fact that divine spells exist, this can also be applied to UMD and some Knowledge skills (local and religion mostly).

The number of people with ranks in either spellcraft or UMD is fairly low. The knowledge religion group is a bit bigger but they also tend to be a -lot- more religious; members of the clergy, deacons of the church, etc. (Mind, not all members of the clergy are divine casters)


Then, between Druids, Clerics, Archivists, Divine Bards, Favored Souls, Mystic Rangers and higher levels Paladins and Rangers, the population that has had prayers answered is higher than 1%

Nope. I was including all of them at the same rate as their closest equivalent on the demographic table. Archivists at the same rate as clerics, divine bards at the same rate as as arcane ones, etc.


and the percentage of the population who at least knows someone with a direct connection to the divine is closer to 100% than it is to 1%.

Know -of- those people, sure. Know them personally; not so much. Genuinely believe that their power comes from some nebulous gods they will -never- meet, perhaps even after they die; who knows? The ability to perform 'miracles' holds no weight when arcanists and cause clerics can do it too.

I'm not saying that no one will believe there are gods. That's absurd. What I -am- saying is there's more than enough room for doubt. Even in sigil, where some have actually -met- the gods, they don't necessarily believe they're truly gods, creators of the heavans and oerth, just exceptionally powerful outsiders.

[heavyfuel]

Nope. 0.5% of those left over after determining higher than first level NPC classes and all PC classes. They don't add significantly to the overall population of divine casters.

Know -of- those people, sure. Know them personally; not so much. Genuinely believe that their power comes from some nebulous gods they will -never- meet, perhaps even after they die; who knows? The ability to perform 'miracles' holds no weight when arcanists and cause clerics can do it too.

I'm not saying that no one will believe there are gods. That's absurd. What I -am- saying is there's more than enough room for doubt. Even in sigil, where some have actually -met- the gods, they don't necessarily believe they're truly gods, creators of the heavans and oerth, just exceptionally powerful outsiders.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_States), in the early 2000s there were approximately 33 doctors for every 10'000 people in the US, or, 0.33% of the population.

Saying people won't believe in divine powers that are given to Clerics and the other mentioned classes because they are such special snowflakes is the same as saying people in 2004 didn't believe in the modern medicine.

Sure there's one or another person that thinks medicine is quackery, but you don't look at these guys as if they were the voice of reason. In the high magic world of D&D, divine magic is as certain as the fact that monsters exist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_States), in the early 2000s there were approximately 33 doctors for every 10'000 people in the US, or, 0.33% of the population.

Saying people won't believe in divine powers that are given to Clerics and the other mentioned classes because they are such special snowflakes is the same as saying people in 2004 didn't believe in the modern medicine.

Sure there's one or another person that thinks medicine is quackery, but you don't look at these guys as if they were the voice of reason. In the high magic world of D&D, divine magic is as certain as the fact that monsters exist.

Ignoring the false equivalence for the deeper misunderstanding.

I'm not saying they won't believe in divine magic only that they won't definitely always believe that it comes from gods or even that there are gods.

[Wardog]

Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with the underlined.


I didn't mean "everyone knows the gods exist" (although how many people don't know that a typical D&D setting?)

I meant "the gods exist". By RAW in D&D, that is a fact. (Unlike in some other settings, where RAW isn't clear whether or not there really are any gods, regardless of what people in the setting believe).

And if the priest or cleric performing the ceremony is genuine (and hasn't fallen), then they will have a divine connection, and can call upon the power of the gods to answer prayers and perform miracles. (Unless they are a non-theistic cleric, in which case they can still call on some sort of quasi-divine power to perform miracles).

[atemu1234]

Mind Rape the happy couple. You may kiss the bride.

[SiuiS]

Where are these found? I've occasionally ruled that such things happen when the adventure is important enough to the god in question but I'm not aware of any guidelines to that effect printed anywhere?


Defenders of the faith page 16-17, though I misremembered. Divine intervention is like a summon monster cast by a cleric of one level higher than the player's total level.



Not inherently but whenever an enterprising enchanter, illusionist, or beguiler wants to build a cult around himself as a road to temporal power it muddies the waters. Any outside observer can also deny the deific source of clerics' power by highlighting the point I made; wizards can do most of the same things and they don't claim gods are backing them. Some of them may even be atheists or defiants.

This conversation is a fundamentally sociological one. There are clear answers to your questions but they go into historical stuff we can't talk about here. Fundamentally, yes people can say "nuh-uh" but it doesn't have the effect of convincing that many, especially when belief is your bread and butter.


By marriage, I meant everything it entails, such as flirting, courtship, actual marriage, pregnancy, children, etc. Can I get help with this?

Nope. D&D doesn't handle those things with mechanics. There are third party rules for it you could look up.


According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_States), in the early 2000s there were approximately 33 doctors for every 10'000 people in the US, or, 0.33% of the population.

There are not people going around with scientific backing saying all doctors are hoaxes who actually use magic to heal people.