Hit point loss means nothing, until it does?

[graeylin]

How come if I lose 49 hitpoints in a single attack, it means nothing to my body... not an ounce of pain, no damage, nothing. But if I lose one more, I could suddenly die?

If I have 200 hitpoints, I could lose 199 of them over multiple attacks and rounds, and not even feel the effects (by raw, i would not even be hindered by the loss), but if I lose 51, I might die?

I could be hit by a hundred velociraptor pirhannas, each doing 45 hit points a bite, and feel nothing (if I had 5000 hp), but should one of them do 51... oopsie.

RAW: Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

RAW: Massive Damage: If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.


So, which is it? Loss of hitpoints doesn't impact you at all, until the last one, or it might, kind of, maybe, if it's a special number?

[atemu1234]

Hey, your body can go through a lot before going on gets difficult. Especially in combat.

[graeylin]

True, but in combat, you get scratches, you get aches, pains, you get tired. You get cuts, and things bleed. Your adrenaline can overcome some, but... I would still say that most folks in the midst of combat are experiencing some hindrance.

But not in DnD...

[heavyfuel]

How said you feel no pain? Even by RAW, the Power Word Pain spell works by dealing HP damage, so it seems you do suffer if you lose HP.

The Massive Damage rules seem, along with multiclass XP penalties, one of those rules most people seem to ignore for reasons similar to the ones you've mentioned. If what bothers you is the number 50 being a fixed one, there's a rule in the DMG, i think, that makes massive damage more or less depending on your size. Alternatively, I propose using the pathfinder rule of Massive Damage, which is optional to begin with, where Massive Damage is only massive if it's both over 50 and over half your HP.

Hit points also represent "heroic potential" as my friends and I like to call it, which is basically the ability to keep going despite the damage to your body, so it's as is most high fantasy settings like D&D, where the hero (and the villains) can simply keep going, until they're 100% done, which, in game terms, would be reaching -1 HP

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where on earth are you getting this no pain, no damage nonsense? Of course having a sword open a gash in your flesh hurts. It just doesn't hurt enough to impair your combat ability.

A hit that does massive damage, if you even have the HP to survive it, represents a hit that comes close to hitting or actually does hit a major organ or blood vessel or simply destroys enough of your flesh to put you into shock and leave you on the ground dying unless you're just too damn tough (successful fort save). A fighter that's taken a lot of hits has a lot of scars. A fighter that's taken a few massive damage hits has a few big, nasty scars.

D&D characters are action hero type characters to no small extent. You can make them more delicate if you like but by default they're tough.

[Jack_Simth]

How come if I lose 49 hitpoints in a single attack, it means nothing to my body... not an ounce of pain, no damage, nothing. But if I lose one more, I could suddenly die?

If I have 200 hitpoints, I could lose 199 of them over multiple attacks and rounds, and not even feel the effects (by raw, i would not even be hindered by the loss), but if I lose 51, I might die?

I could be hit by a hundred velociraptor pirhannas, each doing 45 hit points a bite, and feel nothing (if I had 5000 hp), but should one of them do 51... oopsie.

RAW: Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

RAW: Massive Damage: If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.


So, which is it? Loss of hitpoints doesn't impact you at all, until the last one, or it might, kind of, maybe, if it's a special number?
For the most part? HP is an abstraction. It doesn't exactly represent injury, even though a lot of people think of it that way. To quote:

What hit points represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn't have the favor of some higher power. (The bold and italic sections are both original; do be warned I'm prone to typo's)

If it's a major blow - defined by 50 damage for a medium or small creature... again, an abstraction - to quote a segment of Unearthed Arcana that was copied into d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm):
The massive damage rule is designed for games of heroic fantasy. It maintains the remote possibility that a single blow from a mighty opponent can kill a chracter, regardless of that character’s actual hit points.

Altering the massive damage rules can dramatically change the character’s attitude about combat. A lower threshold (the amount of damage that triggers a Fortitude save to avoid death) makes combat more deadly, perhaps turning any hit into a potentially life-threatening injury. On the other hand, a less deadly result on a failed save (unconsciousness instead of death, for instance) makes combat less dangerous, making a character’s current hit point total more important than any single hit. (just a quick copy/paste, because that one's online)

So... yeah. It's there to keep combat dangerous. Most tables drop it, knowingly or not, because they don't much like it.

[heavyfuel]

A fighter that's taken a lot of hits has a lot of scars. A fighter that's taken a few massive damage hits has a few big, nasty scars.


I've always wondered about that... Does magical healing simply accelerate the healing process leaving scars? Since these spells are Conjuration spells, this doesn't seem to be the case. So I think that maybe adventurers don't really have that many scars simply because the Cleric keeps creating new blood, muscle, bones and skin instead of just making the body heal faster

[Amaril]

Because hit points don't represent actual injuries. They represent fatigue, balance, and the ability to keep defending yourself. And having fewer hit points remaining does have a hindering effect--the fewer you have left, the greater the chance the enemy's next attack is going to break past your guard and deal a real, telling wound that puts you out of commission and possibly kills you.

This helps to explain how a high-level human adventurer can have far more hit points than a grizzly bear, even without magical assistance. No natural human can withstand more direct physical harm than a grizzly bear, but the adventurer has had a lot more practice defending herself and avoiding actually getting hit, so she can keep fighting for longer anyway.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you want HP loss to have negative effects, how about this:

50%-100% HP: No negative effects

25%-50% HP: -1 on attack, damage, saves, skill checks, and ability checks

0%-25% HP: -2 on the above rolls, plus lose 1 HP per minute until healed

[Tvtyrant]

I've always wondered about that... Does magical healing simply accelerate the healing process leaving scars? Since these spells are Conjuration spells, this doesn't seem to be the case. So I think that maybe adventurers don't really have that many scars simply because the Cleric keeps creating new blood, muscle, bones and skin instead of just making the body heal faster

We use a "If you drop between 1 and -10 you roll on a cosmetic scar chart." For none-cosmetic scars we usually grant a penalty and a bonus feat.

[SiuiS]

First: hit point loss meaning nothing is a Roleplay issue. If you want to get smashed by a club and just go "uh" and continue, that's fine, but that's a choice.


True, but in combat, you get scratches, you get aches, pains, you get tired. You get cuts, and things bleed. Your adrenaline can overcome some, but... I would still say that most folks in the midst of combat are experiencing some hindrance.

But not in DnD...

You don't get tired in your games? I extend the fatigue rules to combat. Most PCs have ten rounds before they need to start making endurance checks for fatigue.

The massive damage rule represents those things that should by rights physically alter you on a gross scale. A 50 point punch should cave in your chest. A 50 point sword stroke should bisect you. A 50 point club should mulch you. The save is to see if it does.

I've done some hauling. I was able to spend five, six hours constantly grabbing about 150 pounds of iron, march it six hundred feet, and set it down, then repeat. Doing the same with 175 pounds destroyed me; after only thirty minutes I was basically unconscious.

Similarly, I've been hit in the torso by a friend. I could handle it fine. He improved his technique, hit just a little but harder, and suddenly those shots were past my ability to withstand, and he would floor me.

Really, 50 hp killing you when 49 doesn't makes just as much sense as 200 killing you but 199 not doing so.

[heavyfuel]

If you want HP loss to have negative effects, how about this:

50%-100% HP: No negative effects

25%-50% HP: -1 on attack, damage, saves, skill checks, and ability checks

0%-25% HP: -2 on the above rolls, plus lose 1 HP per minute until healed

Didn't 4e had a rule like this one? I remember being one of the few things I liked about it

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've always wondered about that... Does magical healing simply accelerate the healing process leaving scars? Since these spells are Conjuration spells, this doesn't seem to be the case. So I think that maybe adventurers don't really have that many scars simply because the Cleric keeps creating new blood, muscle, bones and skin instead of just making the body heal faster

It's generally left up to the player of the character in question since it has no mechanical effects. I'd say that cure spells do leave scars but that heal or regenerate don't. I'd also say that they remove existing scars. That's just me though. You or your DM may have different ideas.

[graeylin]

Where on earth are you getting this no pain, no damage nonsense? Of course having a sword open a gash in your flesh hurts. It just doesn't hurt enough to impair your combat ability.

I guess I get it from the RAW...

No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Me, personally, I would say a gaping wound from a sword in my side WOULD be a hindrance. And since the damage that swordsman did doesn't hinder me in any way... it didn't cut me and leave me bleeding.

I agree with those who point out it's an abstract concept... hitpoints are a necessary game abstraction to represent speed, ability to absorb blows, ability to block pain, perhaps, etc.. What I don't understand is how the two (abstraction) rules work together... Loss of HP causes NO HINDRANCE to me, if I lose 49 at a time all day long. But if I lose 50... massive death.

Even at the other end, there's some gradation... I go from perfectly fine and healthy (1 hp), to unable to do much or unconscious (0), and then slide down the scale towards death over a couple rounds, through loss of these things that don't hinder me until death (-10). I kind of understand that.

But at the other end...loss of 49, doesn't bother me at all. Loss of 50, potentially fatal. Dragon bites me for 40, hits me with a claw for 45, smacks me with a tail for 48, and buffets me with two wings for 45 apiece, I survive without hindrance. But, if he misses me with everything but his wing next round, and that does 51... Could be done for.


Or, look at it another way: Two, big, burly fighters, exact same builds/hp.

dragon hits one for 49 fire, 49 claw, 45 claw, and 49 tail... Fighter smiles, and smacks back.

next round, dragon attacks the other fighter. Misses with everything, except the tail. Hits for 50 with that. Poor fighter, just watched his buddy survive a massive amount of "damage" and not even be hindered, and he could very well die.

Logic?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course a massive gash in your side would hinder you. You're not an action hero. It'd slow me right the heck down too but a fighter isn't Joe average; 9 to 5 wage slave, he's Arnold in True Lies, or Mel in Braveheart, or Bruce in Diehard. He takes injures that would drop normal men and says "Damnit. I liked this shirt," and keeps on truckin' like it was a gnat bite.

Question: if taking damage from a weapon doesn't represent an actual hit at all, how does the poison on the weapon get into your system?

Answer: they do, in fact, represent actual hits, just shallow ones that don't stop the guy.

As to your example's request for logic: the answer is exactly what created the situation; luck. Though that first fighter is either a real masochist or stunningly stoic since he's just had his flesh rent and his bones bruised by a dragon and smiled about it.

[Sith_Happens]

Because hit points don't represent actual injuries.

Except when they do. See: Falling, lava exposure, numerous spells, the list goes on.

Hit points were never meant to be remotely consistent in what they represent.

[Amaril]

Except when they do. See: Falling, lava exposure, numerous spells, the list goes on.

Hit points were never meant to be remotely consistent in what they represent.

Yeah, that's true, there are exceptions for cases like that. Generally, though, in cases where an injury would realistically kill someone, but a character has enough hit points to survive it, I come up with some justification for them not really suffering the full injury. For example, with fall damage, I might say that they manage to grab onto something before they hit the ground and stop themselves, but then lose their grip and fall again the rest of the way, hitting at less than terminal velocity but still being injured. You just have to apply common sense--unless, of course, there's magic involved, in which case sense is completely irrelevant.

For the lava case in particular, I don't know if this is how it works in 3.5, but I always use the rule from 4e: if you touch lava and are not completely immune to fire, you die, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[RenaldoS]

The real answer to OP’s question is that if your character gets weaker when he has lower hit points, it leads to a spiral where a small edge assures total victory. When you’re at a lower hp total, you’re already more vulnerable. It takes less damage to knock you unconscious or dead. If on top of that, you were also less able to defeat your opponent, it would make it very difficult to come back from being behind.

[Milodiah]

The real answer to OP’s question is that if your character gets weaker when he has lower hit points, it leads to a spiral where a small edge assures total victory. When you’re at a lower hp total, you’re already more vulnerable. It takes less damage to knock you unconscious or dead. If on top of that, you were also less able to defeat your opponent, it would make it very difficult to come back from being behind.

...you mean like real fighting?


Also, in my opinion, there's no way to explain HP. Sure, you can rationalize it, but at the end of the day it exists because they didn't make anything better. So grin and bear it.

[Renen]

I like to RP hitpoints differently depending on who im playing.

If im a "weakling" of some sort, then my HP represent how many times I can dodge stuff before getting beheaded.
If I am a huge barbarian, then HP damage is him tanking hits with his face LIKE A MAN, and continuing fighting.

I NEVER use the massive damage rule because its stupid.

Though HP DOES matter in small amount of cases. I know for example that a domain power of one of cleric's domains allows to "off" someone if they have HP below a certain number based on your cleric level (and a dice roll i think)

[Kelb_Panthera]

...you mean like real fighting?

Too much so, yes. Excessive realism isn't necessarily a good thing.

[Sudokori]

The difference between taking 150 damage over the course of ten rounds and taking 50 damage in one hit and almost dieing immediately is comparable to being shot by 10 small caliber bullets over the course of a gunfight and being shot by a 8 gauge shotgun slug in the chest.

The ten smaller bullet wounds still do a lot of damage, but they're not as important as the baseball sized hole in your torso. The 50 damage = save vs death rule is supposed to simulate the survival chance of your character suffering massive amounts of physical abuse in a single hit.

[Chronos]

I think that the best explanation of HP is that yes, you really are taking that damage, and yes, a sword stroke does do just as much damage to the body of the high-level barbarian as it does to the low-level wizard. I think that this explanation is best because it's both the simplest, and it conforms closely to the real world.

Most people, a dagger wound really is just about all it takes to kill them. But a human body is far from destroyed after a single dagger wound-- In fact, it's almost completely intact. To completely destroy a human body, reducing it entirely to hamburger, takes somewhere in the vicinity of 200 damage. The difference between the high-level barbarian and the low-level wizard is that the wizard is going to succumb to that wound, while in order to kill the barbarian, you pretty much do need to reduce his body to hamburger.

Look at historical examples of war heroes, legendary outdoorsmen, etc. In other words, people you'd expect to have a high number of hit points. Many of them really did survive horrible wounds, like getting the skin torn off their entire back by a bear, or taking a sniper rifle round directly to the face. Most people would absolutely have been killed by something like that, but those tough guys weren't. It's not like that rifle round just made Simo Hayha really tired, or grazed him noncritically or anything: It really did really leave a gaping hole in his face.

[graeylin]

I see everyone's points... I guess no matter how you slice it, you can't apply internal DnD logic to the hitpoint system.

I can get hit with 20 tennis ball size gunshot wounds, and be "not hindered" at all. But one a millimeter larger (baseball size) could kill me.

Total area of my body impacted is much larger via the smaller tennis balls, but... disregard that.

Hitpoints represent weakening of my ability, except... it doesn't.

Hitpoint loss doesn't hinder me a bit, until the last one. Unless it's poison. Then it can. Or does. Or might.

I can take a 100 hp blow, and with a bit of fortitude luck, be just fine. Heck, barely a scratch to some heroes. But, take a 1 hp loss from a certain poison... (or, honestly, magic spell that does a save or die).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see everyone's points... I guess no matter how you slice it, you can't apply internal DnD logic to the hitpoint system.

I can get hit with 20 tennis ball size gunshot wounds, and be "not hindered" at all. But one a millimeter larger (baseball size) could kill me.

Total area of my body impacted is much larger via the smaller tennis balls, but... disregard that.

Hitpoints represent weakening of my ability, except... it doesn't.

Hitpoint loss doesn't hinder me a bit, until the last one. Unless it's poison. Then it can. Or does. Or might.

I can take a 100 hp blow, and with a bit of fortitude luck, be just fine. Heck, barely a scratch to some heroes. But, take a 1 hp loss from a certain poison... (or, honestly, magic spell that does a save or die).

Very few, if in fact any, poisons have more than a moderate chance of killing you outright. Even so, they do so by damaging your con score. It's attacking something different from your HP's so of course it doesn't matter how much damage you take in the delivery of it.

Magic isn't attacking your body at all but your life force directly on many of those save or die effects or else they -do- damage your HP's too.

Where are you getting "tennis ball" sized wounds? Unless you're talking high-caliber bullets, which this system doesn't even cover, there's not much that's going to do that. It seems like you can't picture a small flesh wound as opposed to something that -should- be crippling in real life. HP's were never supposed to represent any weakening of ability except perhaps a weakening of the character's ability to survive the next 3-4 encounters.

[Zanos]

I guess the somewhat obvious answer is that D&D isn't a real-life simulation, so HP are an abstraction I'm fine with and having to keep track of more situational modifiers in a system where you can have +1 to hit against dwarves when it's raining and it's less than 40 degrees but only when the sun is behind you and the crow enters the belfry seems irritating.

Massive damage rules are also bad in my opinion. I've never played at a table that actually used them, and nobody has ever been surprised when I didn't ask for a fort save after they took 50 damage.

[Calimehter]

To the OP: Check out the Wound/Vitality point system from Unearthed Arcana. Judging from your comments on the standard HP system, you might like it.

[Milodiah]

Very few, if in fact any, poisons have more than a moderate chance of killing you outright. Even so, they do so by damaging your con score. It's attacking something different from your HP's so of course it doesn't matter how much damage you take in the delivery of it.

Magic isn't attacking your body at all but your life force directly on many of those save or die effects or else they -do- damage your HP's too.

Where are you getting "tennis ball" sized wounds? Unless you're talking high-caliber bullets, which this system doesn't even cover, there's not much that's going to do that. It seems like you can't picture a small flesh wound as opposed to something that -should- be crippling in real life. HP's were never supposed to represent any weakening of ability except perhaps a weakening of the character's ability to survive the next 3-4 encounters.

So, max damage on a crit with a greataxe = "a flesh wound" to anyone over level 1?

Nobody in the world can decapitate anybody over level 1 with the first hit?

Can't suspend my disbelief that far. But I have to, because D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, max damage on a crit with a greataxe = "a flesh wound" to anyone over level 1?

Nobody in the world can decapitate anybody over level 1 with the first hit?

Can't suspend my disbelief that far. But I have to, because D&D.

Max damage on a greataxe crit is 36 before -any- modifiers. That should put just about anyone below level three or so into dying, at least. A first level warrior class should be sporting at least str 15 for another 9 points on the crit for 45, enough to drop to dying anyone up to about level 5 or so. Given that well over 95% of every humanoid is level 1 or 2, I'd say that's not stretching disbelief that far. Decapitating someone in combat is very difficult. A coup-de-grace puts the save DC for that at 43; way too high for any non-epic warrior to make reliably.

Edit: math error

[heavyfuel]

So, max damage on a crit with a greataxe = "a flesh wound" to anyone over level 1?

Nobody in the world can decapitate anybody over level 1 with the first hit?

Can't suspend my disbelief that far. But I have to, because D&D.

Elite-array Warrior wielding Greataxe at lv 1 has 15 Str, which gives the max damage crit a total of 45 damage without Power Attack. This can pretty much kill any character up to lv 5 since a 14 Con 5th level Fighter has an average of 42 HP. This 5th level Fighter is way beyond a normal guy, which is why he can (barely) survive such a blow.

If the guy is a lv 20 Fighter with HP bordering on 200, the 45 damage will mean he was able dodge somewhat the hit, and was left with a wounded shoulder instead of a dangling head cuz he's freaking lv 20. This is the level where you have wizards creating entire demiplanes in a few days. Why can't you suspend your disbelief that the Fighter was able to slightly ajust his position so that the axe grazed him instead of hitting him on the neck?

[Arbane]

I just think of HP as "Ablative Plot Armor" trying to treat it as anything 'realistic' just leads to madness and/or high-level characters who are physically tougher than the Terminator (but I repeat myself).

ISTR there's at least on RPG out there where HP measure how tenaciously your soul clings to your body, and in that case, treating HP as Meat Points does make more sense.