The Other Locate City Bomb

[weckar]

I've been looking through threads on the (in)famous Locate City Bomb, and noticed that they all need quite some prep and (spell)levels to pull off. Now, I think I've devised a mild but better targeted version to be used at CL1. Now for all of you to tell me why it won't work. And to tell me that I'm of course not the first person to do this.

Required: Human+1Flaw/Other+2Flaws.
Feats: Snowcasting, Flash Frost, Bane Magic
Spells: Locate City (of course)

Anyway, simply Snowcast a Flash Frost of Locate City, and attune the Bane Magic for anything you especially want to target. As far as I can see, this is still a 1st level spell - so getting more than one casting off in a row should be easy. That said, the total damage to anything NOT targeted would be 2*(number of spell slots lv 1 and up), plus any damage resulting from hilarious slipping accidents. For anything TARGETED by the Bane Magic (targeted not as in the game term, obviously) the damage would be (2+2d6)*(number of spell slots lv 1 and up) which is at least double if not significantly higher. As always, no attack rolls or saves - it just happens. Unlike most divination stuff it is also not blocked by lead.

Let the war begin.

[sideswipe]

i believe there was a huge point that meant the locate city bomb doesn't actually work. i remember reading a thread about it, with a few people blindly ignoring their point as they had no comeback to it. after reading the reasons it wouldn't work i was entirely convinced. and now don't really acknowledge it.

this was about 18 months ago.

[Nousos]

Seeing as how this is a different combination of metamagic, and i believe the issue with the prior bomb was that a few of the metamagic feats weren't able to be used on the spell I don't see how that comment really helps.

After all, op did ask to by told why it won't work, not just that the OTHER one doesn't work. It may be worth checking on the reason why the original failed to work.

That being said, I can't see any conflicting on metamagic and targets atm. If it DOES work, then it will be my new source of fun with a certain DM.

[Heliomance]

i believe there was a huge point that meant the locate city bomb doesn't actually work. i remember reading a thread about it, with a few people blindly ignoring their point as they had no comeback to it. after reading the reasons it wouldn't work i was entirely convinced. and now don't really acknowledge it.

this was about 18 months ago.

The only plausible argument I've heard against the original is that the fact that the area of Locate City is given as a "circle", not as a radius, or spread, or cylinder, or anything else, means that Explosive Spell just makes everyone hop an infinitesimal distance off the ground, dealing no damage as no-one moved five feet.

Personally, I think that's shaky, as if it worked that way it wouldn't be able to locate a city on a hill - or, indeed, anything at all, if you happened to be up a mountain at the time of casting. Not even if there was a city at the foot of said mountain.

[Hecuba]

There are actually a couple issues with the Locate City Bomb.

The one I find most convincing in general is the area requirement of explosive spell.
Specifically, it requires a spell that "[. . .]affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)."
In order for Explosive spell to qualify at all the parenthetical must be representative rather than enumerative (that is, we must take an implied "e.g." rather than an implied "i.e.").

Additionally, a circle is not a listed kind of area for spells: specific outweighs general, so it certainly works for Locate city in and of itself. But whether that makes it a valid kind of area in general is an open question.


Regardless, my preferred answer in practice is "No, you can't abuse poor editing like that."

[Chronos]

Explosive Spell was always a rather silly thing to add to the Locate City bomb, anyways. Sure, you'll (maybe) do a huge big pile of damage with it... to anything that fails two saving throws against a first level spell, and is outdoors away from all buildings. The real point of the Locate City bomb is that you do damage to everyone and everything within 10 miles/level. Sure, it's only two points, but so what? Cast it twice, and you've killed most of the commoners in that area. Attach Fell Drain to it, or Fell Animate, or both. There's all sorts of things you can do with that damage.

[Nousos]

Seeing as how Weckar is NOT USING explosive spell, would his combo work? Seriously theres no need to derail this thread with ways something ELSE won't work

[Vertharrad]

Bane magic requires you to damage a specific creature type...this doesn't.

When you cast a spell that deals damage against a specific creature type, you deal an extra 2d6 points of damage.

[saxavarius]

so the chain would go:
Locate City
Snowcasting (gives cold descriptor)
Flash Frost (spells with cold descriptor deal +2 damage/spell level)
Bane Magic (+2d6 to chosen creature type)

so it would deal 2d6+2/spell level. I can't see anyway this wouldn't work although I am no expert on metamagic combos so I could be missing something.


Edit: add in Heighten for more damage to everything. you won't kill much with this but you can get some massive commoner death going.

[RenaldoS]

Flash Frost

Flash Frost increases the spell slot by 1, how are you doing that at level 1 with this build?

A secondary concern is that the wording of snow casting is weird, and I don’t think the spell gains the cold descriptor until you spend the move action gathering snow. You would therefore need to be a spontaneous caster to apply Flash Frost to it and thus need Rapid Metamagic or Lesser Celerity spell to do this.

Edit: Locate City is a 1 round casting time, you’d need lesser celerity or better to do this combo.
Edit 2: Wait that doesn’t work either, Idk man.

[Uncle Pine]

i believe there was a huge point that meant the locate city bomb doesn't actually work. i remember reading a thread about it, with a few people blindly ignoring their point as they had no comeback to it. after reading the reasons it wouldn't work i was entirely convinced. and now don't really acknowledge it.

this was about 18 months ago.

The original Locate City Bomb doesn't work because Energy Substitution (electricity) makes a Snowcasting Locate City Bomb a [electricity] spell and you can only apply Flash Frost to [cold] spells. A Locate City Bomb using Energy Admixture instead of Energy Substitution doesn't work only if you read

Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst).
as "you can only apply Explosive Spell to spells with an area of cone, cylinder, line or burst" instead of "you can only apply Explosive Spells to spells that affect an area (of which cone, cylinder, line and burst are examples", which is silly as Fireball (the spell used in the feat description as example) has an area of 20-ft.-radius spread.
TL;DR Locate City Bomb does work. However, this isn't what OP is asking.


Bane magic requires you to damage a specific creature type...this doesn't.

When you cast a spell that deals damage against a specific creature type, you deal an extra 2d6 points of damage.

The feat description specifies that you have to choose a specific creature type when you select the feat and that you deal extra damage to creature of that type.

To the OP: A snowcasting flash frost Xbane locate city spell is indeed a (lesser) locate city bomb. However, it's a 2nd level spell as Flash Frost is a +1 metamagic feat, which means that it isn't normally available to 1st level character, unless you are 1st level human sorcerer with two flaws, Snowcasting, Flash Frost, Bane Magic and Versatile Spellcaster.


Flash Frost increases the spell slot by 1, how are you doing that at level 1 with this build?

A secondary concern is that the wording of snow casting is weird, and I don’t think the spell gains the cold descriptor until you spend the move action gathering snow. You would therefore need to be a spontaneous caster to apply Flash Frost to it and thus need Rapid Metamagic or Lesser Celerity spell to do this.

Edit: Locate City is a 1 round casting time, you’d need lesser celerity or better to do this combo.
Edit 2: Wait that doesn’t work either, Idk man.
Using a 1st level sorcerer as an example:
1st round: Move action to gather snow, standard action to initiate casting the spell.
2nd round: Standard action to complete casting the spell.

[RenaldoS]

Using a 1st level sorcerer as an example:
1st round: Move action to gather snow, standard action to initiate casting the spell.
2nd round: Standard action to complete casting the spell.

I can find no rules that support splitting up a 1 round casting time over 2 rounds. All I can find is this:



A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action.

And:


A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.


So as far as I can tell, you can’t combine a 1 round cast time with the 1 move action for snow casting.

[Uncle Pine]

I can find no rules that support splitting up a 1 round casting time over 2 rounds. All I can find is this:


And:


So as far as I can tell, you can’t combine a 1 round cast time with the 1 move action for snow casting.

Yes it's a bit tricky to find.


Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

[RenaldoS]

Huh, learn something new every day.

But, a new hiccup has been discovered. When a spontaneous caster adds metamagic to a spell with a casting time of longer than 1 standard action, you add a full-round action to the casting time.

Since completing the full-round action of the previous turn requires a standard action, but you still have another full-round action to complete, you run out of actions and can’t finish casting the spell.

So:
1. Move Action (snow casting) + Standard action (Start casting the spell)
2. Standard Action (complete the previous round’s full round action), no more actions to start the next full-round action that is required.

Therefore, I contend that you need Rapid Metamagic to do the combo.

[Troacctid]

If you take a full round to start casting it, you don't have any actions left either. So by your logic, casting any spell with a casting time of two full rounds or more is impossible.

[RenaldoS]

If you take a full round to start casting it, you don't have any actions left either. So by your logic, casting any spell with a casting time of two full rounds or more is impossible.

No, not at all. My argument is that you can’t RAW start a spell that would take 2 rounds to complete on a turn where you took some action other than a 5-foot step. Casting a spell requiring 2 full rounds actions would be fine.

turn 1. Start casting spell, use full round action to start casting it.
turn 2. Continue casting spell, using full round action, Spell finishes.

[Uncle Pine]

Huh, learn something new every day.

But, a new hiccup has been discovered. When a spontaneous caster adds metamagic to a spell with a casting time of longer than 1 standard action, you add a full-round action to the casting time.

Since completing the full-round action of the previous turn requires a standard action, but you still have another full-round action to complete, you run out of actions and can’t finish casting the spell.

So:
1. Move Action (snow casting) + Standard action (Start casting the spell)
2. Standard Action (complete the previous round’s full round action), no more actions to start the next full-round action that is required.

Therefore, I contend that you need Rapid Metamagic to do the combo.

I think you're partially right: you need Rapid Metamagic to do the combo at 1st level. Otherwise, it only becomes available at 3rd level.

[RenaldoS]

What changes at 3rd level?

[Uncle Pine]

What changes at 3rd level?

... Nothing, actually: I've never read Snowcasting in such a way that it makes impossible for prepared spellcasters to combine it with Flash Frost and forgot for a moment to consider it. I said 3rd level because Wizards get 2nd level spells at that level and could theoretically cast a snowcasting flash frost Xbane locate city spell without shenanigans if Flash Frost can be applied over Snowcasting.
Leaving this issue aside, I realized that a Sorcerer can pull this off without Rapid Metamagic:
Round 0: gather snow and do nothing else.
Round 1: start casting lesser Locate City Bomb (1st full-round action).
Round 2: finish casting lesser Locate City Bomb (2nd full-round action).

With Rapid Metamagic, you complete the casting during round 1. If you don't want to be a Sorcerer, a 5th level Wizard can still pull this off with Spontaneous Divination (as Locate City is a divination spell).

[Exegesis]

RAW, adding Flash Frost to Locate City does nothing.

Flash Frost does damage to "all targets in spell's area."

SRD:
"Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself."

Locate City has no targets. RAW is clear that targets are defined by the spell itself, not just a latent status all creatures or objects have.

[TypoNinja]

There are actually a couple issues with the Locate City Bomb.

The one I find most convincing in general is the area requirement of explosive spell.
Specifically, it requires a spell that "[. . .]affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)."
In order for Explosive spell to qualify at all the parenthetical must be representative rather than enumerative (that is, we must take an implied "e.g." rather than an implied "i.e.").

Additionally, a circle is not a listed kind of area for spells: specific outweighs general, so it certainly works for Locate city in and of itself. But whether that makes it a valid kind of area in general is an open question.


Regardless, my preferred answer in practice is "No, you can't abuse poor editing like that."

My DM actually thought a Locate City Bomb was cool enough to ignore possible grey areas (I'm not convinced there are any*) to make it a campaign hook. It can in theory take out a good portion of a continent (Drop it in Toronto, Ontario and you hit Long Island if you use a beefy high level casting). Campaign never actually saw a conclusion, pesky real life issues, but it was enjoyable while it lasted.

*A list of examples is not meant to be exhaustive, the literal definition of example, rules out exhaustiveness. If I tell you I like Ice cream and then list a few flavors, I"m not saying I'll only eat those flavors, that's just what I'd go for if given the choice. It's accurate to say I'd eat those flavors, its not accurate to say I'd only eat those flavors.

[A_S]

*A list of examples is not meant to be exhaustive, the literal definition of example, rules out exhaustiveness. If I tell you I like Ice cream and then list a few flavors, I"m not saying I'll only eat those flavors, that's just what I'd go for if given the choice. It's accurate to say I'd eat those flavors, its not accurate to say I'd only eat those flavors.
The point of contention is whether the stuff in parentheses is a list of examples, or a clarification of what is meant by "area." Since the authors weren't kind enough to include an "e.g." or an "i.e.," it's unclear.

[Uncle Pine]

The point of contention is whether the stuff in parentheses is a list of examples, or a clarification of what is meant by "area." Since the authors weren't kind enough to include an "e.g." or an "i.e.," it's unclear.

It's easy to identity the stuff in parentheses as a list of examples as otherwise the author would contradict himself by using Fireball as an example in the feat's description.

[The Grue]

RAW, adding Flash Frost to Locate City does nothing.

Flash Frost does damage to "all targets in spell's area."

SRD:
"Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself."

Locate City has no targets. RAW is clear that targets are defined by the spell itself, not just a latent status all creatures or objects have.

By that argument, Flash Frost doesn't apply to Ice Storm or Cone of Cold either since neither of those spells targets a creature or object.

[TypoNinja]

It's easy to identity the stuff in parentheses as a list of examples as otherwise the author would contradict himself by using Fireball as an example in the feat's description.


Speaking of the fireball example. It makes it obvious whoever wrote the text was not thinking in 3D when it came to AoE spells, (Actually most of D&D's combat rules deal with 3D badly) because the obvious fireball example fails to realize that the quickest exit path from sphere is going to include vertical movement unless you happen to be at exactly ground zero. Also there won't be one shortest path, you'll end with more than one "shortest path" you'll end up with an arc one square wide where all the exit points are the same distance.

[Exegesis]

I

LCB is in that excellent space of just-illegal where if you think it's cool and want it in your game (I do) it's trivial to houserule in, and otherwise it need not even nudge your brainwaves. (And yes of course you could just make up a spell that did the same thing without all the finicking but there's something immensely pleasing about mcgyvering it. The question is always whether fiat is more elegantly exercised to fudge or to blatantly fabricate, and in this case it's obviously the former because the trick would no longer be sweet if it were intended.)

So that said.

II


By that argument, Flash Frost doesn't apply to Ice Storm or Cone of Cold either since neither of those spells targets a creature or object.


Actually, I don't think that's true in either case.

Ice Storm: "Great magical hailstones...dealing [damage] to every creature in spell's area." That specifies targets.
Cone of Cold: "It drains heat, dealing 1d6 points of cold per caster level." It deals damage. Damage, by definition, is dealt to something. 3.5's writing is often untechnical. In this case, "dealing 1d6 points of cold [to everything in its area]" is implied, since otherwise the spell would do nothing.

On the other hand, Locate City has an area, and you learn of the nearest settlement in that area. It does nothing to anyone except perhaps you.

I don't think there's any room for argument here, RAW is explicit that a target is defined by the spell itself and that Flash Frost only affects targets of the original spell.

III

It looks like the Explosive Spell debate is pretty simple. The feat says "area", then defines that term for its purposes. The confusion is that "area" is never defined that way anywhere else, even though the feat looks like it's offering a terminological reminder. So it's confusing that Explosive Spell had to define it at all, rather than just saying "blast, line, or burst."

So the line of thought when you read it is, 'Oh look this is using the term 'area' but it's a definition that's not used anywhere else so maybe it's wrong and the general definition takes precedent.'

1. Not how 3.5 works
2. It's more occam to assume that this writer was slightly uneconomical in their style, by defining a term they didn't need to, but did at least say what they meant, than to suppose they went to the trouble of including a reminder what "area" means, yet ended up with a definition used nowhere else.

Stipulative meanings exist. Explosive Spell doesn't work on LCB unless you houserule it to.

[P.F.]

Ice Storm: "Great magical hailstones...dealing [damage] to every creature in spell's area." That specifies targets [...]
Locate City has an area, and you learn of the nearest settlement in that area.

Could that not, by the same logic, specify the nearest settlement as the "target" of Locate City?

[Exegesis]

Locate City doesn't affect the city, it affects you.

It's like casting Flash Frost Legend Lore about a certain planet, and, you know.

[The Grue]

Ice Storm: "Great magical hailstones...dealing [damage] to every creature in spell's area." That specifies targets.

Granted.


Cone of Cold: "It drains heat, dealing 1d6 points of cold per caster level." It deals damage. Damage, by definition, is dealt to something. 3.5's writing is often untechnical. In this case, "dealing 1d6 points of cold [to everything in its area]" is implied, since otherwise the spell would do nothing.

If we're talking about unwritten implications, then we are no longer talking about RAW. RAW, Cone of Cold does 1d6 points of caster level to a "Cone-shaped burst". Nothing in the spell's description says it targets creatures or objects.

[TypoNinja]

Granted.



If we're talking about unwritten implications, then we are no longer talking about RAW. RAW, Cone of Cold does 1d6 points of caster level to a "Cone-shaped burst". Nothing in the spell's description says it targets creatures or objects.

While its true Cone of Cold left out the "deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area." style description that Fireball has, the Burst area still has it covered.




A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

[Exegesis]

Thanks for catching that, TypoNinja.

Also: Locate City is NOT a circle, or you could never find anything that was not on the exact same footing as you. It specifically mentions being able to locate a city under the caster's feet and one 5 miles away overland in the same casting. Its area is a sphere. This -is- under the SRD's definition of area, but not under the specific definition of area in Explosive Spell. So that one could be ruled either way, except that specific trumps general.

As far as Flash Frost, LC has an area but doesn't affect anything within that area. Rather, that area serves as the range limitation of another effect.

If it -were- a burst, which "affects everything in range" it would be less clear cut, though I'd say it can't affect them if there's no effect.

[weckar]

You're right, I missed the +1 increase on FF.

As for Prepared/Spontaneous, or whether it can be done on a prepared caster at all, comes down to a matter of semantics. In particular: Whether a metamagic feat is 'applied' when it is prepared with the spell or when the spell is cast.

[Petrocorus]

Even without Explosive Spell, a Flash Frost Locate City heightened to lvl 4 and then energy Admixted can make 8 cold damage and 8 damage of another energy. That's enough to kill many NPC.
You can get to a total of 24 damage to everyone within the 200 miles with no save if you reduce the metamagic cost with Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic. Maybe not as awful as with Explosive Spell, but still enough to kill a lot of people and cause a huge mess. And less problematic rules-wise.

[weckar]

Explosive Spell is not part of the presented formula either way.

[TypoNinja]

Even without Explosive Spell, a Flash Frost Locate City heightened to lvl 4 and then energy Admixted can make 8 cold damage and 8 damage of another energy. That's enough to kill many NPC.
You can get to a total of 24 damage to everyone within the 200 miles with no save if you reduce the metamagic cost with Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic. Maybe not as awful as with Explosive Spell, but still enough to kill a lot of people and cause a huge mess. And less problematic rules-wise.

Lets add fell draining to give everybody a negative level too and kick off an undead armegeddon. :D

[Petrocorus]

Lets add fell draining to give everybody a negative level too and kick off an undead armegeddon. :D

Armageddon? You're still limited in term of undead creation by your CL. 40 HD of zombie may be cool but can hardly be called a zombie apocalyse.

[A_S]

Armageddon? You're still limited in term of undead creation by your CL. 40 HD of zombie may be cool but can hardly be called a zombie apocalyse.
Fell Drain, not Fell Animate. We're not raising them as zombies; we're killing them with negative levels (and creatures killed by negative levels arise spontaneously as wights a little while later). It only works on level 1 characters, and the wights won't be under the caster's control, but practically everybody in the world is level 1 anyway, and you don't need to control a bajillion wights for them to cause some problems.

If the LCB works at all, I believe turning it into the wight-pocalypse is pretty air-tight.

[Petrocorus]

Fell Drain, not Fell Animate. We're not raising them as zombies; we're killing them with negative levels (and creatures killed by negative levels arise spontaneously as wights a little while later). It only works on level 1 characters, and the wights won't be under the caster's control, but practically everybody in the world is level 1 anyway, and you don't need to control a bajillion wights for them to cause some problems.

Oh my... didn't understood this like that. This is awful. A wight apocalypse for a level 4 slot.



If the LCB works at all, I believe turning it into the wight-pocalypse is pretty air-tight.

I believe it does. I wonder if you can actually target all creature including animals. Does animals can raise as wight?

[A_S]

I believe it does. I wonder if you can actually target all creature including animals. Does animals can raise as wight?
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm):

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
So, it depends on what "a character" means. But since I think basically all DM-controlled creatures are considered to be NPC's (non-player characters), I imagine the animals might also come back as wights.

I would guess that the intention was to restrict it to humanoids, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Bane magic requires you to damage a specific creature type...this doesn't.

When you cast a spell that deals damage against a specific creature type, you deal an extra 2d6 points of damage.

That's an editing problem (which the example makes pretty crystal clear). For reference, from Heroes of Horror page 119:

Benefit: When you cast a spell that deals damage against a specific creature type, you deal an extra 2d6 points of damage. For example, a giant bane lightning bolt cast by an 8th-level caster would deal the usual 8d6 points of damage to any nongiant in its path but would deal 10d6 points of damage against giants. This feat has no efect on spells that do not deal hit point damage, and the source and type of the damage remains the same. This feat cannot be used to increase the amount of healing dealt to undead by inflict light wounds and similar spells, but it can add to the damage dealt by casting cure light wounds on an undead creature.(that's the entire "Benefit" section for the feat). Add on the "Your spells deal extra damage to a particular type of creature." opening text, and then read the "special" section where it mentions that you pick a type when you take the feat, and it's reasonably clear that it means when you cast a spell that deals damage, and it affects a creature of your chosen type, the extra damage happens. From my reading, it's pretty clear that this instance of "a specific creature type" means "that damages the kind of creature chosen when you took this feat" in context, as opposed to such spells as Shatter when applied to a crystalline creature.