How to bind Ghaels, Planetars, or Archons as an evil character?

[RoboEmperor]

Personally, as a neutral crafting wizard/sorcerer, I've been greatly enjoying Ghaeles and Planetars as they provide cleric spells for crafting. They allow me to make almost any item in the game.

But how do I enjoy them with an evil character? Because I'm sure as hell that they would never, ever, help an evil character with anything except their repentance, not even for money. The main problem is that they both got persistent protection from evil, that means no charm or dominate.

I only got two really weak solutions.
1. Dominate the planetar, then cast greater dispel/mage's disjunction, and hope to god the dominate isn't dispelled, but the planetar's protective aura is, and it doesn't cast dispel magic on itself. Charm won't work because unlike dominated creatures, charmed creatures can do stuff for themselves, and there's absolutely no reason why a charmed planetar wouldn't reactive his protective aura as a free action on his turn, ever.
2. Gate in a Planetar, order it to dismiss its aura, order it to lose the will save for dominate monster, and order it lose the will save for planar binding when I cast it.

Problem with both solutions is
a. Gotta be level 17/18. I want to craft at level 11/12. (need dominate, and ghaeles and archons' protections are not dispellable, unlike angels.)
b. I gotta kill them or keep them around indefinately. Killing called creatures is too evil even for my evil characters, and I want to use devils and demons, not angels for everyday combat.
c. Some may argue a bound inward magic circle grants protection to the trapped creature, in which case the planetar can immediately renew its protective aura before you get a chance to destroy the summoning circle.

I want to use these guys solely for crafting and don't mind paying them.

Anyone have any ideas? :\

I usually don't play evil characters, but some DMs are very fickle with alignment shifts...

If no other solution is present, I'm gonna have to leave the campaign, go on a repentance thing, and rejoin the campaign once I'm neutral or good.

Or is there an evil outsider with 12hd or less (preferably), or 18hd or less, with high level cleric spells? (preferably susceptible to mind affecting spells)

Oh and assume the "no unreasonable deal is agreed to" clause is in effect, so no mega charisma debuffing. Otherwise, I don't need your help :P

[Andezzar]

But how do I enjoy them with an evil character? Because I'm sure as hell that they would never, ever, help an evil character with anything except their repentance, not even for money. The main problem is that they both got persistent protection from evil, that means no charm or dominate.Have someone not evil cast charm or dominate.

How did you get their service as a neutral character? If it was through negotiation, just buy/steal/wish an eternal wand of undetectable alignment (assassin 2). How would the angel know you are evil?

[RoboEmperor]

Have someone not evil cast charm or dominate.

How did you get their service as a neutral character? If it was through negotiation, just buy/steal/wish an eternal wand of undetectable alignment (assassin 2). How would the angel know you are evil?

1. protection of evil blocks all charm and dominates, regardless of alignment. It says so in the spell description.
2. If I had the support of someone else who can cast charm or dominate, I'd just use themselves to provide the spells for me :P
3. Any half intelligent being would know that you only hide your alignment if you need to hide your alignment. If the good outsider's detect alignment fails, they'll pose the question for sure >.<

Angels, Ghaeles, and Archons all have at-will detect alignment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just hide your alignment. It's not hard. Misdirection heightened to your highest level will stand a pretty decent shot, for example, and undetectable alignment under that in case they make the will save. Best case, you get them to think you're good through a dominated minion, worst case they can't detect your alignment at all and assume you're neutral.

Then just pay the bastard.

[Vaz]

You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell.

Boost your charisma to make the check. The rules state that depending on the circumstances that there's a bonus, but penalty. Unless otherwise homebrewed, if you beat the Cha check you'll need to struggle. Going by your previous thread, you're at 16 Cha, which is up against a Ghaele's 16 as well, but if you pick up Eagle's Splendour/+4 Cloak of Charisma, you get +2.

There's nothing preventing you from using other things to manipulate the situation to your advantage - a bluff/diplomacy check to improve its opinion of you.

Alternatively, don't use these guys, use Midgard Dwarves.


Master Smith (Ex): Midgard dwarves gain Craft Magic
Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring as
bonus feats. They are considered to possess the prerequisites
necessary to craft any magic item of those types, even if they
do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability
to cast the necessary spells.

They are *usually* neutral - which means that unless your DM rolls up a good dwarf (with an equal chance for an evil dwarf, mind), you should have less trouble.

[Andezzar]

1. protection of evil blocks all charm and dominates, regardless of alignment. It says so in the spell description.Right, forgot about that.


3. Any half intelligent being would know that you only hide your alignment if you need to hide your alignment. If the good outsider's detect alignment fails, they'll pose the question for sure >.<

Angels, Ghaeles, and Archons all have at-will detect alignment.There is no Detect Alignment spell. They have Detect Evil. So someone with undetectable alignment does not ping just as anyone that is not evil. Assuming no spells on the target the only way to pinpoint a character's alignment is to use all four detect spells.
While those angels are clerics and thus have access to zone of truth, your own protection from Good/Evil/Chaos/Law would protect you from it, as you pointed out above and there is no particular reason why they would have that spell prepared when called.

[RoboEmperor]

Just hide your alignment. It's not hard. Misdirection heightened to your highest level will stand a pretty decent shot, for example, and undetectable alignment under that in case they make the will save. Best case, you get them to think you're good through a dominated minion, worst case they can't detect your alignment at all and assume you're neutral.

Then just pay the bastard.

Can you misdirect to a creature? Spell description kind of specifies object >.<

My DM is probably gonna say the angel is reasonably smart, so unless it sees a good or neutral alignment, it's gonna question why you're hiding your alignment.

Dominate won't work because those guys have insane sense motive checks T_T.

I want to pay the damn bastard, but roleplay wise none of them would ever accept my blood money.

If I can misdirect to a creature, that'd solve my problem. Bind 2 angels, misdirect to one. I'm now lawful good :D


Boost your charisma to make the check. The rules state that depending on the circumstances that there's a bonus, but penalty. Unless otherwise homebrewed, if you beat the Cha check you'll need to struggle. Going by your previous thread, you're at 16 Cha, which is up against a Ghaele's 16 as well, but if you pick up Eagle's Splendour/+4 Cloak of Charisma, you get +2.

There's nothing preventing you from using other things to manipulate the situation to your advantage - a bluff/diplomacy check to improve its opinion of you.

Alternatively, don't use these guys, use Midgard Dwarves.



They are *usually* neutral - which means that unless your DM rolls up a good dwarf (with an equal chance for an evil dwarf, mind), you should have less trouble.

I guess he is sort of houseruling, or role playing, or both. Iunno. But it makes sense, no way in hell an angel would help an evil doer. He views the charisma check as a negotiation simplified to a dice roll, but if no negotiation is possible, then no charisma check.

Passing the charisma check isn't a problem. Even if your success chance is 10%, try enough times and it'll

Reason why I insist on outsiders is that they're available anywhere, anytime. Otherwise I'd just hire an evil cleric. If you read my past threads you'd know that my DM loves to put his campaigns far away from any friendly civilization XD.




Right, forgot about that.

There is no Detect Alignment spell. They have Detect Evil. So someone with undetectable alignment does not ping just as anyone that is not evil. Assuming no spells on the target the only way to pinpoint a character's alignment is to use all four detect spells.
While those angels are clerics and thus have access to zone of truth, your own protection from Good/Evil/Chaos/Law would protect you from it, as you pointed out above and there is no particular reason why they would have that spell prepared when called.

!!!

You maybe on to something. If they can only detect evil, then misdirection to a tree would work too!

Researching atm...

[Kelb_Panthera]

You realize there are no neutral auras, right? If you're neutral you don't ping on -any- of the detect X spells.

Misdirection's target line reads; "One creature or object, up to a 10ft cube in size." You can use it on a minion as easily as a tree.

[Andezzar]

Can you misdirect to a creature? Spell description kind of specifies object >.<

My DM is probably gonna say the angel is reasonably smart, so unless it sees a good or neutral alignment, it's gonna question why you're hiding your alignment.

[...]

I guess he is sort of houseruling, or role playing, or both. Iunno. But it makes sense, no way in hell an angel would help an evil doer. He views the charisma check as a negotiation simplified to a dice roll, but if no negotiation is possible, then no charisma check.As I said earlier the creatures have no way to pinpoint your alignment. They can only find out if you are evil or not. With Detect Evil a character with an undetectable alignment spell is indistinguishable from a neutral or good character.


Reason why I insist on outsiders is that they're available anywhere, anytime. Otherwise I'd just hire an evil cleric. If you read my past threads you'd know that my DM loves to put his campaigns far away from any friendly civilization XD.While Midgard Dwarves are Outsiders as well, unfortunately they are native outsiders. So you would have to cast planar binding on a plane other than the material plane.

[RoboEmperor]

You realize there are no neutral auras, right? If you're neutral you don't ping on -any- of the detect X spells.

Misdirection's target line reads; "One creature or object, up to a 10ft cube in size." You can use it on a minion as easily as a tree.

Yay! Problem solved! XD

Thanks everyone.

Misdirection and detect evil are the kind of spells you dismiss immediately before even reading them, so unless you comb through the entire spell lists, you won't even know they existed. Well, at least to a combat oriented noob like me XD.

Step 1. Hide alignment
Step 2. Pay

If they succeed on their will save (they will because it's pretty damn high), misidrection fails. What's a contingency plan for that? Beg like crazy for their help and if they refuse send them on their merry way and try again? I dunno if they'll try to kill you like demons will if you break the circle so they can return. After all, you're an evil creature who tried to fool them.



While Midgard Dwarves are Outsiders as well, unfortunately they are native outsiders. So you would have to cast planar binding on a plane other than the material plane.

That's not a problem. I can just go into the ethereal plane. That's what the 49,000gp etherealness enchantment is for :P

[Kelb_Panthera]

Already covered the contingency; undetectable alignment.

intel gathering spells were amongst the first things I noticed. Knowledge is power and intel is the greatest weapon and all that jazz.

[RoboEmperor]

Already covered the contingency; undetectable alignment.

intel gathering spells were amongst the first things I noticed. Knowledge is power and intel is the greatest weapon and all that jazz.

Unfortunately that spell is not on the wizard or sorcerer spell list. So unless there's a mind controllable outsider with level 2 cleric spells, I won't have access :(.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately that spell is not on the wizard or sorcerer spell list. So unless there's a mind controllable outsider with level 2 cleric spells, I won't have access :(.

Seriously? UMD scroll, arcane disciple (it's on several domains), wyrm wizard, etc. It's not at all difficult to access a spell from another caster's list, especially a little first level spell. Heck, a potion or three would do.

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1582.0) should prove useful.

[RoboEmperor]

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1582.0) should prove useful.

That proved AMAZINGLY useful. Thanks! Lilitu solved that problem XD.

[Andezzar]

Seriously? UMD scroll, arcane disciple (it's on several domains), wyrm wizard, etc. It's not at all difficult to access a spell from another caster's list, especially a little first level spell. Heck, a potion or three would do.as I said earlier you can also buy an eternal wand (MIC) of undetectable alignment. It is even cheaper than I initially thought because the spell is also a 1st level spell on the bard list. For a mere 820 gp you can have an item that casts undetectable alignment 2/day. More than you would probably ever need, and you don't even need UMD for it.

[Jeff the Green]

Have you ever noticed that Dread Necromancers have the planar binding line, but no magic circles? It's because they're meant to call things, kill them, and animate their corpses. That's definitely an option here, particularly if you can make them into corpse creatures instead of zombies.

[Urpriest]

I guess he is sort of houseruling, or role playing, or both. Iunno. But it makes sense, no way in hell an angel would help an evil doer. He views the charisma check as a negotiation simplified to a dice roll, but if no negotiation is possible, then no charisma check.



It isn't. Diplomacy is explicitly for negotiations, so if it were representing negotiations it would be a diplomacy check. Instead, it's supposed to represent you imposing your will on the called creature, which becomes easier when it has incentive to obey.

[RoboEmperor]

It isn't. Diplomacy is explicitly for negotiations, so if it were representing negotiations it would be a diplomacy check. Instead, it's supposed to represent you imposing your will on the called creature, which becomes easier when it has incentive to obey.

Oh my god you're right! "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

The word "deal" is never used!

Thanks! I now have something to argue with >:D

[Sith_Happens]

Don't forget to debuff your prospective flunky's modifier into oblivion before making the check.:smallwink:

[atemu1234]

Have you ever noticed that Dread Necromancers have the planar binding line, but no magic circles? It's because they're meant to call things, kill them, and animate their corpses. That's definitely an option here, particularly if you can make them into corpse creatures instead of zombies.

But don't the bodies disappear post-mortem?

[Andezzar]

But don't the bodies disappear post-mortem?Summoned creatures disappear, called creatures remain. Planar binding and its lesser and greater variants are calling spells.

[Urpriest]

Summoned creatures disappear, called creatures remain. Planar binding and its lesser and greater variants are calling spells.

Note that there is some precedent for the corpses of certain outsiders, like demons, disappearing in a dramatic manner. But it's not universal.