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View Full Version : Player Help How bad is this? Possibile DMPC/Maty Stu



Kalmageddon
2014-12-20, 12:54 PM
I'm playing in a Pathfinder campaign where an NPC has the following traits:

-Was originally presented as a villain and we (the players) were charged to capture him. The people that wanted him to be captured were presented as either repulsive, morally questionable or downright evil.

-When we finally find him, he casually avoids, anticipate and/or neutralize every attempt we make at capturing him.

-Related to the above point, he had two fanatically loyal minions, both of them able to neutralize our entire group (for reference, I'm a Cavalier with above-average stats and I was only able to hit one said minion on a nat. 20).

After he escapes us, he invites us to his mansion where he basically says that we are fighting for the wrong side (even if we just got payed to do so and there wans't any morality behind it) and offers us to work for him. In the process we find out the following:

-He is part of a powerful organization of which he is one of the most prominent members. Said organization is homebrewed, the setting isn't (it's Eberron), it doesn't feel completely out of place (at least in concept) but it stinks of designated heroes. It's basically the justice league, if the justice leauge went around stealing magical items for people that might use them for evil. Note that I said "magical items", not artifacts. Basically, these people steal +1 swords from any nobody that they feel might use them for evil.

-He is a Half-Daelkyr with no signs of any unsettling behaviour or madness that typically afflicts that breed.

Also, he started accompanying us on missions, screwing up our plans in favour of what he thought we were trying to accomplish. For example, on the last mission, we were trying to take a villain hostage to resolve a conflict without bloodshed. This results in a tough but enjoyable boss fight, until the Marty Stu appears and kills the boss, which we wanted to take alive, without our help (we were buisy with some minions) and with basically no effort.
Cue bloodbath which could have been avoided but it's ok because the factions involved were both evil, even if one was our ally.

Now, I'm fairly confident that I'm having to deal with a Marty Stu, but my observations have been dismissed as just shortsighted or even more infuriatingly, attributed to an in-game dislike that my character has for the NPC. I mean, I've heard of the contrary, but a player's judgement being clouded by the emotions of his in-game character?
Still, I'm looking for advice and second opinions on this.

the_david
2014-12-20, 01:22 PM
Sounds like a railroad to me, with a little bit of deus ex machina sprinkled on top of it. Time to pull the emergency brake and run for it.

Either you talk to the DM or you find another one.

jedipotter
2014-12-20, 01:31 PM
Well, it's hard to say how powerful the NPC is without knowing the game. A typical NPC could be 2-5 levels higher then the PCs. Plus they could be optimized. And even if they are plain, some level bumps can give a lot, and so can some builds. And a single magic item can do so as well.

Though a lot of DM's make characters God-like simply so the PC don't kill them...

Now for the role play part: Is there some reason your hanging around the NPC? Why not just say ''thanks for everything'' and never see him again.

Yora
2014-12-20, 01:37 PM
Nope,that doesn't sound good. Especially the GM saying that it will be great and make sense in the long run.
Best approach would probably be to blatantly and openly ask the GM if this campaign is going to be about the NPC doing great things, or if it will be about the player characters deciding the course of the campaign. If put like that, it might help the GM realize the approach to a campaign is apparently faulty. If not, tough luck.

dps
2014-12-20, 10:52 PM
I didn't really see anything too bad in there up to the part where the NPC started going with your group on missions (without being invited I take it? If he was invited, then that's on the PCs, not the DM). After all, being told by the presumed villain that you've been fighting on the wrong side is a reasonably common trope/plot hook, and as someone pointed out, DMs often make NPCs that are important in the setting overpowered just to keep the PCs from summarily killing them like they were level-1 commoners.

But at the point where he's going with you on missions and basically doing all the work for you, then it becomes a problem.

jaydubs
2014-12-20, 11:32 PM
Now, I'm fairly confident that I'm having to deal with a Marty Stu, but my observations have been dismissed as just shortsighted or even more infuriatingly, attributed to an in-game dislike that my character has for the NPC.

Have those dismissals come from other players, or from the DM in question?

I'd also ask if the DM in question is familiar with the usual Mary Sue and DMPC tropes and pitfalls. If not, I'd refer him towards http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GMPC and http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612. Many DMs don't realize most players hate this kind of thing until they see a very clear example of it.

Kalmageddon
2014-12-21, 08:33 PM
But at the point where he's going with you on missions and basically doing all the work for you, then it becomes a problem.
I'll grant you that from the outside it might not look as bad. But knowing the DM (overly enthusiastic anime fan that still behaves as if he was a teenager well in his 20s) and seeing how he handles the setting* you'd be worried too.
Like for example... Before the campaign starts, while we were preparing our characters and so on, we had a little chat. He is new to Eberron, so I took the chance to tell him about the setting some more. One point he constantly went back to was how awesome Daelkirs are and how cool Half-Daelkirs must be. And that he'd liked to see one in the group.
Then, surprise surprise, his main NPC, which he was dropping hints as having been "preparing it for a while now", turns out to be one. Basically before the campaign started, instead of preparing the campaing he was preparing his DMPC.

He's also constantly making personal remarks on our interaction with the NPC.
Like for example, the NPC gets caputred by the enemy at some point. You may think this disproves him as an unfailable hero, but:

-This was clearly set up as a plot point and not the reuslt of a botched roll on the NPC's part.
-It was clearly meant to be a clue for us to hate the faction that captured him, even when we were trying to strike a deal with them instead.


Getting to the point, when we find him captured he is described to us as beaten, mistreated and very sad. We are basically gloating at that point, finally seeing him being put in his place. The DM scolds us for not feeling sorry for him and is genuinely disappointed by our behaviour. As if he planned all of this just so we could finally feel sorry for the DMPC and start loving him just as much as he does.
Afterwards, we grudgingly agreed to save him by buying him as a slave so we didn't have to blow our cover with the hobgoblins that captured him. The DM then whines that we didn't get his sweet gear back. We do, but we don't give it back to the NPC. He gets it back anyway by not even rolling a dice.


Have those dismissals come from other players, or from the DM in question?

From the DM.
The other players are just as vocals in their dislike of this character as I am. The only difference is that they are both new to TTRPGs, so while they dislike what they are seeing they don't feel confident enough to challenge the DM on the subject.
Anyway, basically as soon as the nature of this NPC was revealed I saw the warning signs and talked to the DM about player agency and how certain NPCs always become spotlight stealers. He was puzzled and annoyed by what I said and he justified his NPC multiple times. I don't know if a TV tropes entry might help.

* About the setting and how he's handling it: I have the distinct feeling he either doesn't like it or doesn't inted to use it at all. Like for example, we began in Sharn and the DM had to be constantly reminded that Sharn is basically a fantasy version of New York City, where you can find anything and anyone. At one point I was looking for a specifically elven smith to craft my weapon. The DM said that it was too specific. :smallconfused:
Or like he said that a half-elf dressed as a druid was "standing out in the crowd", when by Sharn's standards centaurs, hobgoblins and halfling riding dinosaurs are a fairly uninteresting sight.
Or, and this is probably the most infuriating example, when he had a quest take place in Darguun, the Goblinoid homeland. Basically, we get to a city and I ask something along the lines of "are the guards hobgoblins, goblins or bugbears?". He says that there are no goblinoids in sight and that this is a "safe city". I ask what he means by that and he explains to me that "the city has walls so the goblins can't get inside". At this point I remind him that Darguun is their nation and that it's fairly unlikely that a city like this one would exist for long, seeing how the goblinoids are extremely war-like and probably wouldn't take kindly to this little racist haven. He dismisses me and I decide to drop the matter.
Later we are confronted by bands of hobgoblins living in filth and acting like the stereotypical dumb brutes with no culture or national identity just like the ones you would find in a standard D&D setting. This is in no way treated as unusual or atypical for Darguun. He's basically thinking of Darguun as a standard nation that simply has a bigger goblin infestation than most. And goblinois in general can't be anything other than dumb monsters to kill on sight.
As a bonus, this is immediately followed by an encounter with some dumb barbarian orcs, in a setting where orcs have long abandoned those ways in favour for an agricultural society and are known for their druidic beliefs. Said orcs were also on the other side of the continent from where they normally live. :smallsigh:

dps
2014-12-21, 08:59 PM
Yeah, given the additional information, you've got a DM problem.

AmewTheFox
2014-12-22, 12:21 AM
I believe that TVTropes has a GMPC article describing a situation like this.

Also, about the setting thing, I think you need to ask him "Are we playing Eberron anymore?"

While I don't mind mucking with some setting pieces, entire swaths of nations and races is a bit...egregious.

Though, by thoughts on a GMPC is that they are mostly support, really. If the campaign starts becoming more and more about him, you need to ask, "Are we here to play together, are are you here to play with yourself?"

jaydubs
2014-12-22, 12:44 AM
You've got a major problem with a DMPC, though not necessarily of the Mary Sue variety (he was willing to have you guys rescue the DMPC). This might be closer to The Wesley (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsPet?from=Main.TheWesley).

Also, sometimes DMPC issues are really just a sign that the person in question would really rather be playing rather than DMing. I've seen it happen a few times, with a DM developing serious DMPC tendencies, at which point we swap DMs for awhile. Works great as long as you can find a substitute.


* About the setting and how he's handling it: I have the distinct feeling he either doesn't like it or doesn't inted to use it at all. Like for example, we began in Sharn and the DM had to be constantly reminded that Sharn is basically a fantasy version of New York City, where you can find anything and anyone. At one point I was looking for a specifically elven smith to craft my weapon. The DM said that it was too specific. :smallconfused:
Or like he said that a half-elf dressed as a druid was "standing out in the crowd", when by Sharn's standards centaurs, hobgoblins and halfling riding dinosaurs are a fairly uninteresting sight.
Or, and this is probably the most infuriating example, when he had a quest take place in Darguun, the Goblinoid homeland. Basically, we get to a city and I ask something along the lines of "are the guards hobgoblins, goblins or bugbears?". He says that there are no goblinoids in sight and that this is a "safe city". I ask what he means by that and he explains to me that "the city has walls so the goblins can't get inside". At this point I remind him that Darguun is their nation and that it's fairly unlikely that a city like this one would exist for long, seeing how the goblinoids are extremely war-like and probably wouldn't take kindly to this little racist haven. He dismisses me and I decide to drop the matter.
Later we are confronted by bands of hobgoblins living in filth and acting like the stereotypical dumb brutes with no culture or national identity just like the ones you would find in a standard D&D setting. This is in no way treated as unusual or atypical for Darguun. He's basically thinking of Darguun as a standard nation that simply has a bigger goblin infestation than most. And goblinois in general can't be anything other than dumb monsters to kill on sight.
As a bonus, this is immediately followed by an encounter with some dumb barbarian orcs, in a setting where orcs have long abandoned those ways in favour for an agricultural society and are known for their druidic beliefs. Said orcs were also on the other side of the continent from where they normally live. :smallsigh:

On this issue - the simple solution is just not to run Eberron. See, there are two sides to it. On the one hand, it frustrating when a universe you're accustomed to is portrayed totally inaccurately. On the other, (speaking from personal experience DMing) it's also annoying to have a player try to correct you on how the world is supposed to work. (I've had this happen even in a completely homebrew setting where I told the player to throw out his lore knowledge on racial societal structure, since none of it will apply. He still jumps to conclusions, and acts confused when I inform him his assumptions are completely wrong.)

So stop trying to run Eberron. Use it for inspiration, or not at all. If he doesn't want to do that, just accept that the DM is running his own, non-canon, fan-fiction version.

137beth
2014-12-22, 12:50 AM
The other players are just as vocals in their dislike of this character as I am. The only difference is that they are both new to TTRPGs, so while they dislike what they are seeing they don't feel confident enough to challenge the DM on the subject.
Anyway, basically as soon as the nature of this NPC was revealed I saw the warning signs and talked to the DM about player agency and how certain NPCs always become spotlight stealers. He was puzzled and annoyed by what I said and he justified his NPC multiple times. I don't know if a TV tropes entry might help.

Yes, you have a DM problem. Do you know if he has ever DM'd before? For that matter, do you know if he has played TTRPGs before?




* About the setting and how he's handling it: I have the distinct feeling he either doesn't like it or doesn't inted to use it at all. Like for example, we began in Sharn and the DM had to be constantly reminded that Sharn is basically a fantasy version of New York City, where you can find anything and anyone. At one point I was looking for a specifically elven smith to craft my weapon. The DM said that it was too specific. :smallconfused:
Or like he said that a half-elf dressed as a druid was "standing out in the crowd", when by Sharn's standards centaurs, hobgoblins and halfling riding dinosaurs are a fairly uninteresting sight.
Or, and this is probably the most infuriating example, when he had a quest take place in Darguun, the Goblinoid homeland. Basically, we get to a city and I ask something along the lines of "are the guards hobgoblins, goblins or bugbears?". He says that there are no goblinoids in sight and that this is a "safe city". I ask what he means by that and he explains to me that "the city has walls so the goblins can't get inside". At this point I remind him that Darguun is their nation and that it's fairly unlikely that a city like this one would exist for long, seeing how the goblinoids are extremely war-like and probably wouldn't take kindly to this little racist haven. He dismisses me and I decide to drop the matter.
Later we are confronted by bands of hobgoblins living in filth and acting like the stereotypical dumb brutes with no culture or national identity just like the ones you would find in a standard D&D setting. This is in no way treated as unusual or atypical for Darguun. He's basically thinking of Darguun as a standard nation that simply has a bigger goblin infestation than most. And goblinois in general can't be anything other than dumb monsters to kill on sight.
As a bonus, this is immediately followed by an encounter with some dumb barbarian orcs, in a setting where orcs have long abandoned those ways in favour for an agricultural society and are known for their druidic beliefs. Said orcs were also on the other side of the continent from where they normally live. :smallsigh:
Okay, so normally I complain whenever anyone else complains about me not following canon. It's one of the main reasons I avoid asking for advice on the Paizo forums. I am supportive of the kind of thing Baker described doing (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmark-31914-orcs-mean-streets-and-more/) to mess with Eberron canon

Now, I just came up with this idea on the spur of the moment. But running with it a little further, you can get even farther out there and say Kaius III isn’t a vampire. Here’s the sequence of events. Kaius is turned into a vampire by Erandis. After being undercover for a time, Erandis sends him to replace K3 and take over Karrnath; she likes the idea of having a puppet on the throne. But K1 is no one’s puppet, and he has his own scheme. K3′s lover Etrigani is a deep-cover Deathguard agent, and knows rituals that can allow a living person to appear undead, a variant of the half-life techniques common among the Jhaelian clan. Together, Etrigani, K1, and K3 arrange to make it SEEM as though K3 is actually vampire K1. This “coup” – the idea that K1 has replaced K3 – is revealed to Morana and the other inner circle of Karrnath, and of course all of Vol’s spies. “K3″ – actually K1 – is sent to Dreadhold, and made incommunicado, so there is no way for Vol to manipulate him; he can’t get out even if he wanted to. Etrigani and K3-posing-as-K1 want to destroy the vampire that sired K1 and to get as much information as they can about Erandis’ inner circle and her reach in Karrnath. Again, in this scenario Etrigani is an agent of the Deathguard, who have been trying to eliminate Erandis for centuries. But K1 is under close scrutiny by Vol. She doesn’t understand why she can’t control him, but he’s doing his best NOT to reveal his true identity. He’s too closely watched. He needs agents she doesn’t know… agents like the PCs.

The main thing I like about this is that most people who know Eberron know that Kaius III is a vampire and Kaius I. To negate both of these – not only is he actually Kaius III, he’s not even a real vampire – is a great way to catch people who think they know everything about the world offguard. And it helps solidify K3 and Etrigani’s relationship; it’s not that she loves him in spite of his being a vampire, something that’s an anathema to her people; rather, she loves him because they are working together to bring down Erandis, and it’s her skills that allow him to maintain his masquerade.

However, I just read your footnote, and am wondering...has he even read the ECS book? Or even the introduction to ECS? A better question, though, is why he is even bothering to 'use' Eberron when he isn't actually, ya know, using anything in it?:confused:

Kalmageddon
2014-12-22, 06:26 AM
Yes, you have a DM problem. Do you know if he has ever DM'd before? For that matter, do you know if he has played TTRPGs before?

However, I just read your footnote, and am wondering...has he even read the ECS book? Or even the introduction to ECS? A better question, though, is why he is even bothering to 'use' Eberron when he isn't actually, ya know, using anything in it?:confused:

I think we are getting closer to the core of the issue here.
See, this is the first time I've played with this guy. I've found him and the other players on an RPG site as he was looking for a group. We all meet up for a coffee one afternoon and we talk about what we would like to paly, our previous experiences and so on.
On that occasion, we discover that 2 players out of 4 have basically no previous experiences but would really like to play (the two players), I have 14 years of experience and the DM has 1-2 years of irregular playing experience.
Fine, I think to myself, I'm not good at DMing newbies and I'd really like to be a player once in a while so I'll just try to be accomodating and let them pick what we were going to play.
Pathfinder is the clear choice, with the GM being overly-enthusiastic about it and boasting how he bought most of the manuals and how he's prepared an entire setting for it. Cue perplexed look on everyone's faces about the DM already wanting to whip out a homebrewed setting with people he basically doesn't know.
I ask a few questions in order to find out if this setting was fairly vanilla, so that the two inexperienced players could follow the manual and not be completely clueless on how things worked. It's not. Dear God it's not.
Can't discuss it at lenght due to forum rules, but the part where the DM wanted us to play was an Eastern inspired heaven where everyone lived in perfect harmony. But not because "magic" or because "the Gods want that", no, it was because of perfectly applied socialist ideals.
We basically went "NOPE, staying clear of that!" and I suggested that we pick an official setting for D&D or Pathfinder, so that everyone could have a clear frame of references.
The DM suggests Forgotten Realms (pre 4th edition), suddendly becoming enamored with the idea of having us meet Elminster (overly powerful NPC that is a known spotlight stealer in the hands of the wrong DM? Hmmm...), I hate Forgotten Realms with a passion and the others are neutral about the idea, so I try suggesting Eberron. Basically as soon as I mentioned "Halflings riding dinosaurs and playable magic robots" everyone was sold on the idea, even the DM, while not being his overly-enthusiastic usual self, was ok with the idea.
We even find a really great online conversion for Eberron to Pathfinder, so it seems things are going allright.

Another important detail: since it was the first time we were playing together, we agreed that the campaign shouldn't have much in the way of ongoing plot. Meaning we wanted an "episodic" format, where we find a quest, go on the adventure, complete the quest in 1-2 sessions and then start another one, mostly unrelated to the previous one. This had the advantage of allowing us to experiment with a variety of situations, so we didn't find ourselves locked in a plot that maybe didn't fit our characters or our personal tastes, while also allowing for an easier DM switch later on if needs be.
And to be fair, the first couple of sessions weren't bad. I mean, there was the fac that the DM didn't know the setting very well, but I attributed that to having had only a week to prepare the campaign. But moving on, the problems I mentioned started to appear, together with a new one: a clear ongoing plot that bouds our character to a very specific organization and a certain NPC. The organization of the DMPC recruited us and while we thought it was going to be a temporary deal before jumping to another adventure as we had previously agreed to, we later find out that, no, we are now working for these guys. And the DM acts completely oblivious when I try to remind him that we were supposed to have quick self-conclusive adventures and not a big ongoing plot, at least for a while.

I also think that the DM really only likes two things: DMPCs and Pathfinder's Golarion setting. Meaning a fairly vanilla setting that is almost the opposite of Eberron, although Golarion does have some localized magitech/dungeonpunk elements.
Aside from what I mentioned, there is also the way he handles my character and his slice of the setting. See, I'm playing a Valenar elf. For those of you that don't know what that means, it means that mine is not your typical friendly and wise elf. Valenar elves are more like a cross between a Genghis Khan-era mongol and a Klingon. They are warlike, obsessed with honor and glory and basically can't wait to die in glorious battle to join their ancestors in the Undying Court, or so they believe.
Now, considering I'm playing my character completely by-the-books, meaning a stereotypical Valenar elf, it should come to no surprise that his favourite way to solve things is violence, he isn't picky when it comes to killing and basically doesn't give a crap about morality as long as he's following the code of honour of his people and the will of his ancestors.
Now, what does he do to my character? Well, of course he forces him to work for some humanitarian morons that think they have the right do decide who gets to keep a cool magical item and who doesn't while taking a moral high ground on everyone.
I'm constantly being called out for being "too hard on the NPC" or "not sympathetic enough" and the DM at least at first never ceased to be surprised that I wasn't playing a peaceful elf that would be right at home in another setting where elves are listed as CG.
Oh and I almost forgot how the only example of Valenar elf he manged to squeeze into his plot is some random warlord that was known to rape women and kill children. Because obviously if they are not peaceful hippies, Valenar elves must be complete monsters.

And just in case you think the other players fit right in, I have a wall of text explaining how the Druid got told his circle is made of liars and his beliefs are wrong and the Gnome that is trying to become a Trust agent is being forced to strike a deal with an organization that of course knows everything about the Trust and plans to screw them. :smallsigh:

JW86
2014-12-22, 07:41 AM
Sounds bad.

Now that the two newbies have had a little play experience, how would you feel about DMing?

Kalmageddon
2014-12-22, 07:52 AM
As I mentioned, I'm not good at DMing newbies. My DMing style is very much based on player initiative and I don't work well with inexperienced players. And there is also the fact that I am always DMing, 14 years straight of DMing, in fact, and once in a while I would like to play a character instead.

JW86
2014-12-22, 07:57 AM
Sure, I can appreciate that. I did read what you wrote regarding new players, I had assumed maybe they had a little experience under their belts that would have changed.

Nothing to suggest, unfortunately - sounds like a nightmare DM. Good luck.

Scipio_77
2014-12-22, 08:01 AM
It is always hard to judge in these conflicts (people rarely give fair descriptions), but it does sound like he has a case of enpecitis. It can happen to the best of DMs; you make a character you think is awesome and then you oversell it and the players hate it and you get desperate.

But then you have the flip side of the coin; players who are convinced that the only reason to play this game is so that they can have fun. Players also have a responsibility to make for a good story, and not just their story.

I'm not saying you are one of these, and I agree that from your descriptions your DM needs to lose his attachment to his NPCs or he can never build a good campaign. But similarly maybe you need to look at how your characters fits into the story as told as well. It is fine that you are brutal and violently honourable elf, but there is RPing possibilities here beyond being brutal and violently honourable: It is hard to comment on this without stepping on your toes, but do you see how perhaps both you and this DM have very rigid conceptions of how the story should pan out?

Maybe your brutal and violently honorable elf should start to RP a little doubt about his ways (and of course feel anguish and torn about this), and you could RP this as stating to be questioning yourself while still lashing out at the NPC with your elven violent creed.

Kalmageddon
2014-12-22, 09:20 AM
It is always hard to judge in these conflicts (people rarely give fair descriptions), but it does sound like he has a case of enpecitis. It can happen to the best of DMs; you make a character you think is awesome and then you oversell it and the players hate it and you get desperate.

But then you have the flip side of the coin; players who are convinced that the only reason to play this game is so that they can have fun. Players also have a responsibility to make for a good story, and not just their story.

I'm not saying you are one of these, and I agree that from your descriptions your DM needs to lose his attachment to his NPCs or he can never build a good campaign. But similarly maybe you need to look at how your characters fits into the story as told as well. It is fine that you are brutal and violently honourable elf, but there is RPing possibilities here beyond being brutal and violently honourable: It is hard to comment on this without stepping on your toes, but do you see how perhaps both you and this DM have very rigid conceptions of how the story should pan out?

Maybe your brutal and violently honorable elf should start to RP a little doubt about his ways (and of course feel anguish and torn about this), and you could RP this as stating to be questioning yourself while still lashing out at the NPC with your elven violent creed.

I agree with what you said, but let me explain why I think it doesn't apply to our situation.
When our group first met to prepare our characters and the campaign in general, we were put in front of a blank sheet, so to speak. The DM was very hands off and basically told us to play whatever we wanted. Seeing how the DM gave us no input (which isn't necessarely a bad thing, mind you) we all went ahead and planned how our characters met and what their motivations for travelling together were.
What we came up with was that I had kidnapped the Gnome character while he was travelling in order to get ransom money, only to find out that he wasn't worth anything and that I actually kind of liked the little guy. We become vitriolic best buds and he informs me that he's actually looking for someone that he needs to bring back to Zilargo and that there will be good money for me if I help. So I basically turn into his bodyguard and hired blade because while I'm waiting for my chance to perform glorious deeds worthy of my ancestors, some money is always useful and a good manhunt against a dangerous foe sounds like just what I need.
During our travels we meet with the Druid character, who turns out to be looking for the same person we are, because he stole one of the sacred relics of his druidic circle. He's an Emerald Circle druid from Eldeen, by the way.
Our search for this unnamed NPC brigs us to Sharn and the campaign starts.
Now, this NPC we were all on the hunt for was meant to be a narrative expedient and didn't really had an identity or a name, it was there so that the DM could fill in with whatever he felt was appropriate for our first adventure.

Guess who this guy was? That's right, the DMPC.
So basically he took the concept of an antagonist that 2 out of 3 of us were really invested in capturing and made him the misunderstood hero, therefore wiping out in one stroke both the Gnome's motivation and the Druid's.
My character, despite being fairly vocal in his dislike of this organization, isn't the one suffering the worst. The druid found out his circle is made of liars and possibly brainwashing fanatics (completely rewriting the lore on this one) and the gnome has fairly slim chances of completing the quest that motivated his whole background.

You might be wondering why we are still working for this organization and the DMPC after all of this. Well, there are two reasons:
1- OOC it's clear that the DM wants us to follow this plotline. When we first got our invitation to join this group we assumed it was a trap and roleplayed consequently, still trying to capture the DMPC. This is when the steamrolling by the hands of the 2 OP minions took place. So there's that.
2- The DM cleared the board from our personal motivations. He convinced the Druid with a Diplomacy check that he was telling the truth about his circle, so the druid right now is literally without a cause or a home. And the Gnome is hanging on just because he still hopes to find a way to complete his original quest, so backing out and finding something else to do is out of the question. As for my character, I find it hard to deny the fact that this organization is apparently made of rich gullible morons* who reward him handsomely for his work. My character does have an intense dislike for these guys, but is bound to the Gnome's quest by friendship and, before our last quest, didn't really had a good reason not to work with these people except "I hate them".

Now, after the DMPC interfered with our last mission, causing it to fail in our eyes, we might have something to work with, which is exactly why I opened this discussion. We might be able to change plot, but as I mentioned in point n. 1, I think the DM will resist.

*as an added bonus, the chief of the organization is a teenager girl who acts like she's 5 because that's so cute ^_^... :smallsigh: I assume cuteness is why everyone is following her orders.

DireSickFish
2014-12-22, 10:18 AM
Yeah I'd just kill the DMPC and his group or die trying. You said your elf is all about honor and dying gloriously so self preservation isn't an issue for you. Him messing up your plans and causing unwanted violence seems to be a good enough reason to turn on them. The gnome might be able to be convinced that capturing him is not possible and death is the only answer.

This will also definitively show just -how- bad your DM has the DMPC favoritism. Maybe he "doesn't allow it" no matter what clever plan you come up with, in which case he's not worth having as a DM anyway. Maybe he reluctantly lets it work and is just sad about it because you guys didn't like his DMPC. If that's the case let him know that it was good of him to let them go through with it anyway and is a mark of him being a good DM. Try and lift his spirits ect.

I mean you could always just call him out OOC or talk to him and see if he lets up, and that's a good option, but it's hard to know if it sticks and might take a few sessions to see if the advice sticks.

Teulisch
2014-12-22, 10:19 AM
life is too short to play in bad games! leave, and keep looking for a sane group to play with.

137beth
2014-12-22, 01:15 PM
He convinced the Druid with a Diplomacy check that he was telling the truth about his circle, so the druid right now is literally without a cause or a home.

Wow, using diplomacy to alter a PCs motivations? That is horrible!

Solaris
2014-12-22, 01:32 PM
Wow, using diplomacy to alter a PCs motivations? That is horrible!

And against the rules to boot, unless Pathfinder changed that heavily from D&D.

While DMPCs are not necessarily bad in and of themselves, this guy's hitting pretty much all of the warning signs. While you've had some DM burnout, Kalmageddon, it may be best to take the reigns from this guy before he kills gaming for the new kids altogether. It sounds to me like he really, really wants to be a player, and simply can't hold off on that until he learns how to DM without being really crappy at it.

Kalmageddon
2014-12-22, 02:32 PM
Wow, using diplomacy to alter a PCs motivations? That is horrible!
Yup, although to be honest after I called out the DM on this he did admit that the druid was free to believe what he wanted, but he basically told us that the NPC was telling the truth. So we know OOC that the Emerald Circle is evilbad, basically. The druid's player didn't sign up for this, so he's left without a good motivation. Any other player would have just changed character, but this guy is new to the game and doesn't know if these things are normal or not.


While DMPCs are not necessarily bad in and of themselves, this guy's hitting pretty much all of the warning signs. While you've had some DM burnout, Kalmageddon, it may be best to take the reigns from this guy before he kills gaming for the new kids altogether. It sounds to me like he really, really wants to be a player, and simply can't hold off on that until he learns how to DM without being really crappy at it.
Again, I have no intention of DMing, although I understand what you are saying and I thank you for the input.
I'm not suffering from DM burnout, I already DM a campagin with another group so I don't have the time or the energy to start DMing a second one. Beside, I simply like my character and I would like to keep playing it. I have a thing for horseback combat and I love Eberron, so playing a Valenar elf is the best of both worlds for me.

Khedrac
2014-12-22, 05:12 PM
Yup, although to be honest after I called out the DM on this he did admit that the druid was free to believe what he wanted, but he basically told us that the NPC was telling the truth. So we know OOC that the Emerald Circle is evilbad, basically. The druid's player didn't sign up for this, so he's left without a good motivation. Any other player would have just changed character, but this guy is new to the game and doesn't know if these things are normal or not.
One thing you might want to point out to the druid's player if he really likes roleplaying. He knows that the DMPC believes that the Emerald Circle is evil/bad - but of course the druid knows better - so he should be trying to show the DMPC the truth and convince him about the reality of the Emerald Circle...

That said, in general this looks dire, and you probably need to take the DM aside and ask if the grand story that "you will get in time" is how great the NPC is - and point out that just as the game is not DM vs Players (as the DM will always win) neither is it "watch DM vs DM" (as that is just pointless) - instead it is for the DM to challenge the players with the aim for everyone to enjoy it.

Solaris
2014-12-22, 08:50 PM
Yup, although to be honest after I called out the DM on this he did admit that the druid was free to believe what he wanted, but he basically told us that the NPC was telling the truth. So we know OOC that the Emerald Circle is evilbad, basically. The druid's player didn't sign up for this, so he's left without a good motivation. Any other player would have just changed character, but this guy is new to the game and doesn't know if these things are normal or not.

Have you suggested the player make a new character? That really is the sort of thing the DM should come up with before the players make their characters, otherwise it's... well, this is what happens.
Arguably, given the collaborative nature of D&D worldbuilding and story-writing, the DM is wrong because the druid's player already 'anchored' the Emerald Circle's fluff by creating his character. At best, the DM can claim there's a splinter faction of evil Emerald Circle druids (though, if memory serves, there are some other druid factions on Eberron that fit the bad guy bill better). Have you tried this argument on the DM? It's better he admit his mistake and rectify it than he continue on with compounding the mistake.
If he won't admit it, I say screw it and continue on as if the Emerald Circle were as the druid's player had intended, and any evidence to the contrary is clearly the work of imposters besmirching the good name of the Emerald Circle.


Again, I have no intention of DMing, although I understand what you are saying and I thank you for the input.
I'm not suffering from DM burnout, I already DM a campagin with another group so I don't have the time or the energy to start DMing a second one. Beside, I simply like my character and I would like to keep playing it. I have a thing for horseback combat and I love Eberron, so playing a Valenar elf is the best of both worlds for me.

Ahh, I misunderstood the situation. That makes sense.

Operating with the assumption that the DM is trying to bring the best game forth instead of just being a general doucher, these really are just a pile of rookie mistakes. I made... more than I'll admit to of them, myself, when I was starting off. Have you invited the DM onto a forum like this to seek advice? I think it might do him some good, if he's willing to let us kill a few of his sacred cows and provide more than just 'whiny players' to point out to him that an awesome DMPC is only fun for the DM - and if he wants to play the protagonist, either get on the other side of the DM screen or stick to writing novels.

Red Fel
2014-12-22, 10:07 PM
As everyone else has said, the DM effectively rewriting the PCs' backstories and motivations is badwrong. Now, let me clarify - the DM has the right to preemptively veto things. For example, if you say before play starts that your PC is the child of Asmodeus and a Demigoddess, who was entrusted to the care of a King who died just after bequeathing the entire kingdom to the PC, the DM has the right to say, "Nope, not gonna happen, do it over."

But if he does accept that background, he has to leave it as-is. Now, he can always add to it - for example, the King's death could have been orchestrated by Asmodeus, who wanted to arrange for his mighty offspring to possess mortal influence. Or the kingdom is home to a particular cult that will become plot-relevant. Things like that.

But coming back and saying, "Nope, that stuff about being heroic druids? All lies, they're all monsters." That's just dirty pool.

As others have mentioned, tabletop RPGs are collaborative and improvisational acting and storytelling experiences. And one of the first rules of improv is "Don't say no." Think about any improv sketch, when Character A walks on stage and says to Character B, "What'cha doing?" Character B replies, "Just playing a few rounds of golf." The action is now locked - it is golf. Character A can say almost anything - "With a hippo?" "While wearing a tuxedo?" "And who's your lady friend?" - but the one thing he cannot say is, "No, you're mowing the lawn." If he does that, the performance dies abruptly.

Here, your Druid has said "I'm with a circle of heroic druids." The DM says, "No, you're deceived by evil." The players say, "We're pursuing a thieving, wanted NPC," and the DM says, "No, you're working for him, because he's the hero." It's one thing to expose hidden motivations, it's another altogether to rewrite them out of existence.

Your DM is problematic. Sit him down and talk to him. Get his DMPC out of the limelight. And if that doesn't happen, get yourself out of the game. Because it's not going to get better.

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-22, 10:20 PM
Yup, as stated above, you've got a pretty solid infestation of Bad GM, and my best guess is that we're looking at a bad case of it, too. They'll render entire campaign worlds just plain uninhabitable if you let 'em. This case is pretty bad - gotten into the foundations, as you can see. In a case like this, I'd recommend vacating entirely, but if that's not an option, I'd say get a few more opinions, they might have a few tricks up their sleeve, but I've dealt with this before personally a few times and, let me tell ya, it never ended well.

Marlowe
2014-12-22, 10:20 PM
*as an added bonus, the chief of the organization is a teenager girl who acts like she's 5 because that's so cute ^_^... :smallsigh: I assume cuteness is why everyone is following her orders.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/252x373q90/538/2L30te.jpg

Kalmageddon
2014-12-23, 06:26 AM
As everyone else has said, the DM effectively rewriting the PCs' backstories and motivations is badwrong. Now, let me clarify - the DM has the right to preemptively veto things. For example, if you say before play starts that your PC is the child of Asmodeus and a Demigoddess, who was entrusted to the care of a King who died just after bequeathing the entire kingdom to the PC, the DM has the right to say, "Nope, not gonna happen, do it over."

But if he does accept that background, he has to leave it as-is. Now, he can always add to it - for example, the King's death could have been orchestrated by Asmodeus, who wanted to arrange for his mighty offspring to possess mortal influence. Or the kingdom is home to a particular cult that will become plot-relevant. Things like that.

But coming back and saying, "Nope, that stuff about being heroic druids? All lies, they're all monsters." That's just dirty pool.

As others have mentioned, tabletop RPGs are collaborative and improvisational acting and storytelling experiences. And one of the first rules of improv is "Don't say no." Think about any improv sketch, when Character A walks on stage and says to Character B, "What'cha doing?" Character B replies, "Just playing a few rounds of golf." The action is now locked - it is golf. Character A can say almost anything - "With a hippo?" "While wearing a tuxedo?" "And who's your lady friend?" - but the one thing he cannot say is, "No, you're mowing the lawn." If he does that, the performance dies abruptly.

Here, your Druid has said "I'm with a circle of heroic druids." The DM says, "No, you're deceived by evil." The players say, "We're pursuing a thieving, wanted NPC," and the DM says, "No, you're working for him, because he's the hero." It's one thing to expose hidden motivations, it's another altogether to rewrite them out of existence.
That's pretty much it, yes.
Although the other two players have been hit hard by this, my character hasn't been immune as well. Basically, I'm preparing to become a Revenant Blade, which is a Prestige Class for Valenar elves. It's some kind of holy warrior that can enter a state of communion with his ancestors to get various bonuses, more importantly it's presented like a paragon of elven ideals.
So naturally my first contact with the past is through an ancestor who was a complete monster. And the DM not-so-subtly hints that my quest is now to redeem the wrong deeds of my people, who are mostly like that guy, and show them a new way, undoubtedly because I now have been shown the light that is DMPC's organization. Nevermind that I intended to play a character that was perfectly happy with his own culture and nationalistic ideals.
Since then I've told the DM that I intend to ignore that and keep playing my character as I intended to play it, because what he had in mind was far too different from my original concept, so nothing came out of it. That coincided with the complete disappearence of any relevant elven NPC.


Your DM is problematic. Sit him down and talk to him. Get his DMPC out of the limelight. And if that doesn't happen, get yourself out of the game. Because it's not going to get better.

Already talked to him. Not even so subtly in fact, I talked to him about railroading, DMPCs and the fact that the DM shouldn't subvert all expectations for a game. It's one thing to put in a plot twist, it's another to completely derail the motivations of your characters in order for them to stay on the rails. That was also when I mentioned the fact that working full time for some secret organization wasn't appropriate for a campaign that was supposed to be made of self-contained episodes.

Problem is, and I'll try to not go into too much detail because it's personal and I respect this guy's privacy, this guy has some clear self esteem issues. He's basically the stereotypical nerd with no social skills whatsoever, something that I had long assumed to be living mostly in tales nowdays. Anyway, the way he's coping with it is through a very "I have my ways/my motives" attitude, justifying everything he does differently as working as intended and part of his ideals or dictaded by wisdom and experience. Needless to say, it's mostly a way to save himself from having to admit mistakes.
This of course translates into ttrpgs. He's relatively new to DMing and as Solaris said, what he's doing are mostly rookie mistakes made without malice I'm sure. But he's basically only interested in positive feedback and I think he's terrified of losing control of the situation, so I think he's trying his best to be the controlling, authoritarian DM whose word is law. What he's actually doing is not making eye contact and mumbling something like "I'm the DM" whenever there's an objection during play.
So I don't feel completely comfortable insisting on the "you're doing it wrong" path, since this guy is, well, frail. And I know that I come off as blunt and agressive when I really try to tackle an issue, so I'm afraid of breaking this guy for good.

@Marlowe: yup, I made the connection myself. Have I mentioned the DM's an anime (more accurately shonen) fan?

Dycize
2014-12-23, 07:42 AM
@Marlowe: yup, I made the connection myself. Have I mentioned the DM's an anime (more accurately shonen) fan?

I've also noticed how this translates into the game. The underdog organization working against pretty much everything because they are the only white in a world of grey/black (could've been worse, he could have gone the "dark and gritty hero who does the right thing" route where the DMPC would be more or less a certified psychopath but still somehow pure CG on the alignment chart, right now you're just the good team in a sports movie). Stealing weapons because I guess killing is bad (probably kills just as much as the next guy when the time calls for battle tho)? And then there's half-daelkyr (I didn't know about daelkyrs before this but I can see what's going on here) : it's like being a good drow / half-demon but more different, thus unique (and daelkyrs look pretty from the get-go, it's in their description). The cutesy organization leader is also one...
And just the sound of the setting he invented. A perfect society because everyone lives happily thanks to the power of proper social virtues?
Yeah your DM definitely has no idea that what he's doing is all kinds of wrong. How old is he?

It can be hard to deal with that sort of problem when the person you're talking with is sensitive. A jerkass DM you can get into a shouting contest with and he probably won't care a bit about your "ungratefulness" to his DMing.
Here we have a DM who's intentions are good! His way of doing it is simply completely wrong. And sadly, it's gonna be really hard to get him to change without some sort of positive influence. Not feedback, influence. Clearly he puts in his games the stuff he likes, and if his past TTRPG experience is mostly him DMing... Than that means it must be fine, right?
But you want to play, just this once, and the other two have simply no prior experience, so no switching DMs...

...See with the other two to potentially "pressure" him into starting over a new adventure? Something along the lines of "oh I don't really like my character in the end, we would all like to change". That's the part where you and the others make characters with very close bonds. Maybe even from the same organization or House, loyal to a fault! Not only is this good to launch into "mission of the week" styled sessions, but if the DM starts doing things with the setting... You won't have 1, but 3 characters impacted by the same event. Your organization's leader and members start to reveal themselves as evil all along? Then so are you!
He also can't magically make the organization disappear like he did with elves, because then you won't have anything to interact with anymore. Strength is in numbers, as they say.
You might also want to ask the other two how okay they are with doing evil things. Personally, I like ham, and evil ham is extra tasty. If the world is gonna be evil, adapt. And if it goes -too- evil you have the right to say "dude wtf".
If you can't reason with him directly, it comes to the indirect way. He'll either have to kill your characters or improvise. Who knows, it might even turn into a wonderful quest for Riches & Power.
Because really, it sounds like the party got sucked into that guy's stuff and doesn't really have any good reason to not go along.

Either way, the goal is to have him react and do something about it. Worst case is, he'll leave. As they say around here, no game is better than a bad game.
If only our hobby wasn't so hard to find people to play with...

Red Fel
2014-12-23, 08:18 AM
Problem is, and I'll try to not go into too much detail because it's personal and I respect this guy's privacy, this guy has some clear self esteem issues. He's basically the stereotypical nerd with no social skills whatsoever, something that I had long assumed to be living mostly in tales nowdays. Anyway, the way he's coping with it is through a very "I have my ways/my motives" attitude, justifying everything he does differently as working as intended and part of his ideals or dictaded by wisdom and experience. Needless to say, it's mostly a way to save himself from having to admit mistakes.
This of course translates into ttrpgs. He's relatively new to DMing and as Solaris said, what he's doing are mostly rookie mistakes made without malice I'm sure. But he's basically only interested in positive feedback and I think he's terrified of losing control of the situation, so I think he's trying his best to be the controlling, authoritarian DM whose word is law. What he's actually doing is not making eye contact and mumbling something like "I'm the DM" whenever there's an objection during play.
So I don't feel completely comfortable insisting on the "you're doing it wrong" path, since this guy is, well, frail. And I know that I come off as blunt and agressive when I really try to tackle an issue, so I'm afraid of breaking this guy for good.

Then it sounds like you've decided "I'm going to suffer through what I know will be a bad game, because I don't want to hurt my friend."

Which is very selfless of you.

There are those on these boards who argue, quite fairly, that no gaming is better than bad gaming. I happen to agree with them. So understand that if you continue on this path, it is quite likely that feelings will be hurt, that your player agency will be abused, and that in all likelihood what you like about this character will be warped and retconned. If you are willing to endure that to avoid hurting this DM, all the more power to you; I hope it works out.

But those are basically your two options - endure or walk. And frankly, I'd walk. I've had bad DMs. I've had one who literally tried to kill me, who played DMPCs and reacted badly when another social alpha entered our circle. He wanted to DM our lives, not just our games. We tried to hold an intervention. It didn't accomplish much. I ended up walking.

Kalmageddon
2014-12-23, 09:19 AM
I wouldn't say we are friends, we were strangers before starting to game together, but I can't help but feel bad for him. I mean, even in the context of his roomates I've discovered this guy is pretty universally loathed because of how clueless about social interactions and life in general he is, while simultaneously being arrogant on his beliefs. But at the same time nobody has the courage to tell it to his face, because that's the sort of things that can crush someone, expecially seeing how he'd probably wouldn't expect it.
Imagine someone walking up to you and telling you "you've been doing life wrong, start over". Becuase this guy is on that level.

So really what I'm worried about is opening a whole other can of worms. Because if I tell him that he's not as good at DM as he think he is, he'll take it personally and try to pass himself as a mature and experienced individual (he's already done that when previously confronted about his DMPC). Which means at that point I have to simply tell him "look, you don't know what you're talking about". Keeping "the talk" strictly in the context of gaming would be difficult, that's what I'm saying. His problems go beyond that.

... Wow. I'm realizing just now how bad the situation is.

Ok, I've come up with two course of action:

1- I'll talk to him some more and try to keep it as cointained as possibile. Might be necessary to lie in order to do that, something which I'm terribile at, but at least I'll see if the campaign is salvageable. The point I'll try to make is that the campaign has derailed a lot when compared to our original project. We are barely playing Eberron anymore and the structure is not episodic like we all agreed to. I'll try to understand if he's at all interested in DMing Eberron and a more sandbox style campaign, while also stepping back on his DMPC and homebrewed organization. After all, my character already can't wait to walk out on these people and after last time I'm fairly confident that the other two players would agree, even if their characters are seriosuly messed up. Maybe just maybe the DM could be convinced to retcon some of the twists he made.
Pros: could fix all the problems with the campaign in one stroke. And if the DM opnely admits to not wanting to DM neither Eberron nor an episodic campaign we can at least try to move on.
Cons: could lead to huge real life drama for him and the consequent ending of this gaming group.

2- I step up as a DM and take him as a player instead, with the idea of basically coaching him to be a better DM and familiarize with the setting. Then, after a few sessions, I give him back the reins of the campaign and hope he's learned something.
Pros: could be the least traumatic solution, wouldn't require confronting him directly on his mistakes and it would probably improve the game experience of the other players as well.
Cons: he still might resent it or refuse, at which point it might be hard not to explain why I made this proposal. I would have to give up my character, as I'm completely against DMPCs. I started playing in this group precisely because I wanted to be a player and not a DM, so if this fails it will be all for naught.

Opinions?

PS:


Yeah your DM definitely has no idea that what he's doing is all kinds of wrong. How old is he?

He's 20-something. But you'd swear he was 15 by the way he acts. He's seriously one of the least mature individuals I've ever seen in my life. Clueless is an understatement when talking about this guy.

Atanvarno
2014-12-23, 09:59 AM
Possible option: Have your characters discuss how they think they're being manipulated by this guy, decide that regardless of what he says, he can't be trusted more than the organizations and people you've known for years, and resolve to take him out regardless of what he says in the future.

Its like reverse railroading, let the DM know how you want the plot to play, then he can either kill off all your characters, or change his plans and make his DMPC the big bad. Either way, the situation should change pretty quickly, and he can play it off as having "tricked" you into working for the bad guy for a little while.

That might even be what he's going for, albiet in a poorly implemented sort of way. From the sound of it, his DMPC executed an important prisoner who (presumably) could have given you some counterarguments as to why Mr. Stu was not, in fact, just a misunderstood hero after all. :smallwink:

As for this:

Imagine someone walking up to you and telling you "you've been doing life wrong, start over".

Honestly, I would prefer someone say this to me than to secretly despise me and never say anything. If he honestly doesn't see a problem with how he interacts with people, then it could be a wakeup call that causes him to actually change something, especially if he secretly suspects that he's doing something wrong, but doesn't know what or how to fix it.

Red Fel
2014-12-23, 10:24 AM
I've been suggesting being nice to him. I'm not going to suggest that anymore. Here's why - when you're nice, you're too darn nice.

I'm not saying that you should be needlessly cruel, but this is like pulling off a band-aid - it's going to be painful either way, and a quick, clean rip is better than a slow, agonizing tug.

You've told us several things at this point. He's not your friend. He's immature. He's a bad DM. He reacts poorly to criticism. He will take whatever happens personally. It will affect life away from the table.Take a moment and read that list. Are all of those statements accurate?

Okay. Proceeding as if they are, here's the thing. Your proposed options boil down to "I want to make this person a better DM, without causing drama." Right? Now, re-read the list above. Is that the sort of person who will allow others to teach him? Is that the sort of person who will learn?

Those questions aren't rhetorical. You know this person better than I do. If he is the sort of person who generally tries to improve himself when shown his errors, fantastic. Go for it, and I hope it works.

But if he isn't, there is no good ending here. You try to help him, but you fail. You try to help him, but he lashes out. If he's not the type who wants to learn, or wants to learn from you, there is no positive outcome here.

Look, you know the parable of the farmer and the viper, right? Dead of winter, farmer finds a viper dying in a snow drift, takes it home, nurses it back to health over several months? At the end of that time, viper turns and bites the farmer. As he lays there dying, he asks why. Viper says, "You knew what I was when you took me in."

You've told us this person isn't your friend. I have friends for whom I wouldn't go through this drama. You're going through it, voluntarily, for a not-friend. You have to step back from the situation. For a moment, don't assume that if you do the right thing, everything will turn out okay. Looking at actual probabilities, looking at the personalities of those involved, ask yourself as dispassionately as possible, "Will it be worth the drama?" Because the drama is inevitable. You know that. So before you start down this road, you have to make very sure that it will be worth it.

Kalmageddon
2014-12-23, 11:11 AM
You have to keep in mind that he's not a bad person at all, in actual facts. He's kind, there's no denying that, and he's honest and caring in a way only someone with very little experience under his belt manages to be. Basically he's completely devoid of cynicism and very naive.

He's not the kind of self centered ******* that is often described on this forum when talking about terribile DMs. If he can't handle criticism I think it's because he simply tries to defend himself from things he can't undertsand or that he's afraid of knowing by trying to at least act as a person that knows what he's doing. Basically, he's like the guy that pretends to have read the book everyone is talking about so that he doesn't have to be called ignorant. Only applied to his whole life.
It's obvious he's grown in a very sheltered environment and I'm guessing he was bullied to hell and back when he was younger. Only he never grew out of that phase, his world did.

It's not a matter of me being too nice, it's a matter of understanding his situation and not wanting to make it worse. So if the suggestion here is "he's in for a rough awakening anyway, so you shouldn't care what sets things in motion" I can't agree with that.
I've already made similar mistakes in the past. And it always ends with half the people involved thanking me and the other half being miserable. Breaking even is not my idea of "doing the right thing".
For short: not giving a damn about his well-being is not an option. Taking risks, maybe. Option 1 is exactly that, pretty much.

Solaris
2014-12-23, 11:53 AM
It's not a matter of me being too nice, it's a matter of understanding his situation and not wanting to make it worse. So if the suggestion here is "he's in for a rough awakening anyway, so you shouldn't care what sets things in motion" I can't agree with that.
I've already made similar mistakes in the past. And it always ends with half the people involved thanking me and the other half being miserable. Breaking even is not my idea of "doing the right thing".
For short: not giving a damn about his well-being is not an option. Taking risks, maybe. Option 1 is exactly that, pretty much.

This is why it's important you do it, and not someone who lacks the compassion to care about a pretty unlikeable person. Either life dopeslaps him, or he winds up alone and miserable in his mother's basement, eating Cheetohs and wondering why he has no friends or loved ones.
Breaking even on administering hard talks about the reality of someone is actually really good. Most of the shrinks I've encountered don't have a success rate that high (though they have a vested interest in not getting things done quickly...). In this case, though, I think you're right to be leery about it - a man-child lacks much of the ability to take that sort of criticism about his person.

Have you thought about splitting the difference between the two options? I'm presently in a game with a rookie DM, and I act as a player (and sometimes, when I fail my Will save, a rule lawyer). After the game, though, we have a quick discussion about what went well, what went poorly, and what he could do to improve next time (pretty much in that order, too). It's helped him go from mediocre to a great DM, though it necessitates that the DM be willing and able to accept advice and criticism about the game he runs. It's never personal, just about the game itself, and you do have to be careful about being tactful with the criticisms - "Dude, the game sucked" is inadequate, but "You could have done this better, and here's how" is more on the money.

Lord Torath
2014-12-23, 02:45 PM
It sounds like he thinks he needs to be perfect, and thus won't accept any criticism. What hobbies/skills is he good at? Painter, mathematics, whatever. Ask him if he'd be able to paint a masterpeice/solve a differential equation when he's never picked up a brush/encountered algebra? Of course not! DMing is just the same. Tell him about some of the horrible things you've done as a beginning DM (come on, we've all been horrible DMs at some point), and tell him about some of the things you're still struggling with. Let him know it's okay not to be perfect, and these are some hard lessons you've learned.

I had to do this with a nephew of mine. He told me he was going to throw a big evil dragon at his party, and if it proved to be too much, send a good dragon at it to drive it off. Had to have a talk about making the PCs feel like their actions matter.

Maybe direct him to this thread: So You Wanna Be A DM?: A Potentially Helpful Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474). And perhaps here as well: Worst DMs ever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363545-What-was-your-worst-DM-ever-This-thread-is-impervious-roll-to-disbelieve!).

Kalmageddon
2014-12-27, 12:12 PM
I've decided to go for Option 1, with a bit of subtlety.
Us players agreed to leave the DMPC's organization when the campaign resumes next year. This will allow us to naturally transition in discussing the campaign in general and what we would like to see.
Hopefully it goes well.

zinycor
2014-12-29, 07:29 AM
I've decided to go for Option 1, with a bit of subtlety.
Us players agreed to leave the DMPC's organization when the campaign resumes next year. This will allow us to naturally transition in discussing the campaign in general and what we would like to see.
Hopefully it goes well.

I hope that will work too, but (based on my experience) i don't think it will, you will most likely just find another DMPC, and the whole thing will repeat until someone teaches him better

The Glyphstone
2014-12-29, 07:58 AM
I hope that will work too, but (based on my experience) i don't think it will, you will most likely just find another DMPC, and the whole thing will repeat until someone teaches him better

Far more likely that the DMPC will follow, or else it will be impossible to leave them.

Jay R
2014-12-29, 11:09 PM
Far more likely that the DMPC will follow, or else it will be impossible to leave them.

This is actually the perfect measure of the depth of the problem. If you can escape the DMPC, the problem was a lapse in judgment, now successfully avoided. If you can't escape him, the problem is much deeper, and it's time to look for a D&D game.

DrDeth
2014-12-30, 02:34 PM
Heed wisely the words of Admiral Akbar* and the Robot from Lost in Space**.







* it's a trap!

** Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

Mr Beer
2014-12-31, 10:33 PM
I'd just walk frankly but if you want to take on the task of acclimating this guy to the real world (ironically, by the vehicle of an imaginary one) then more power to you. It's a charitable thing to do.

Almarck
2015-01-01, 01:42 AM
I'm by no means an expert in this sort of thing, by which, I mean, I lack a degree in psychology, and I do respect you for having the nerve to stay where most men would walk away.

However, I think that maybe asking your DM to put his plot on "vacation" for one day might be a smart idea. Do something "simpler" with far less baggage from previous sessions.

Justify it as a sidequest that has no real influence over the normal way of things and has no impact or reference to any thing anywhere.

In short, a bottle episode.

The specifics do not matter, but this might help for the rookie players in the game. Ask him not to bring any of his established PCs, nicely. Just encourage him to see how it works. Explain it as "arc fatigue" that sometimes players need breaks from established setting information. Back it up using anime filler to appeal to him, stating that after major plot events, characters need to do something completely unrelated over else the audience gets too tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.

Depending on how well it goes, it might encourage the DM to experiment with this sort of thing, and eventually help break him of his bad habits.

I mean, you and the party have more or less have been frustrated but if you all suddenly all seem to have much more fun from this "sidequest" then maybe he'll start thinking that he's got to improve himself to maintain the better mood.

Metahuman1
2015-01-01, 03:25 AM
A suggestion: Get online/down to the local game shops, and start shopping around for someone with DM experience who can handle green horn players.

Explain the issues to that person, and ask them if they would be willing to DM for the group, and then, get into a game with that guy DMing, and let the current DM run a PC.




He still get's to play, and you might avoid destroying his mental state, and everyone get's to run under a better DM.


Edit: Another though. When you go to bring in the New GM, maybe explain that he's offering to run a game in a different system for everyone. Big Eye's Small Mouths, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Mutants and Masterminds, something either geared toward Anime (particularly shonen style.) or flexible enough to be refitted for anime with no trouble. Then have it be run in a truly Episodic format. Your problem guy get's to play a plucky Shonen Protagonist who's quite powerful and among if not THE brightest spots in a darker world, the rest of you get to not have your characters jerked around with in this way.


Maybe mention to the DM that you got this idea because you noticed he seemed to rather like anime, and having done gaming for 14 years, while it's possible to run a game with anime vibes in Pathfinder or some editions of Dungeons and Dragons, there made more for Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian stuff and there are other system's that handle anime's style and feel better. (Maybe specify Shonen Anime if you feel he knows the difference, otherwise, just say anime to keep his head from exploding for now, and mention that it can do different genera's at a later date, and use examples like "Mecha anime or Magical Girl Anime."

Kalmageddon
2015-01-02, 07:49 AM
To be honest I'd rather not indulge his anime fantasies, simply because I'm not interested in anime in the slightest, in fact I could say the shonen genre is the exact opposite of what I like to see in fiction. While the DM would probably enjoy it, I wouldn't in the slightest and I'm stilly mainly after an enjoyable rpg experience for myself first.
I'm stimply trying to not be a jerk about it by ignoring the needs of the other people involved.

Finding another GM for the whole group would probably be difficult as well, we have exactly one day of the week when everyone is available to play. Finding a new GM that is A- better than the current one B- available that day at that hour and C- willing to GM the campaign someone else started, would probably be almost impossibile.

I'll see if I can fix the situation with our current GM or I'll find another group.

zinycor
2015-01-02, 03:33 PM
To be honest I'd rather not indulge his anime fantasies, simply because I'm not interested in anime in the slightest, in fact I could say the shonen genre is the exact opposite of what I like to see in fiction. While the DM would probably enjoy it, I wouldn't in the slightest and I'm stilly mainly after an enjoyable rpg experience for myself first.
I'm stimply trying to not be a jerk about it by ignoring the needs of the other people involved.

Finding another GM for the whole group would probably be difficult as well, we have exactly one day of the week when everyone is available to play. Finding a new GM that is A- better than the current one B- available that day at that hour and C- willing to GM the campaign someone else started, would probably be almost impossibile.

I'll see if I can fix the situation with our current GM or I'll find another group.

i don't think any DM would be willing to do C, but you might be lucky on B and you won't know about A unless you try it.

DoomHat
2015-01-02, 04:33 PM
I'll see if I can fix the situation with our current GM or I'll find another group.
Try to pull the other two players aboard the life boat with you man! They surely deserve better as well.


i don't think any DM would be willing to do C,
I would!:smallbiggrin: But then, I never did claim to be sane.

Metahuman1
2015-01-02, 05:22 PM
A should actually be really easy, and the point would be to start over so C isn't a factor.

Is there maybe a specific Anime you and this guy both like and you could make it a game form that series? Just a though.

ComaVision
2015-01-02, 05:34 PM
To be honest I'd rather not indulge his anime fantasies, simply because I'm not interested in anime in the slightest,



Is there maybe a specific Anime you and this guy both like and you could make it a game form that series? Just a though.

Additionally, I don't know how that would solve the problem at all.

Dycize
2015-01-02, 06:20 PM
Indulging him in his own anime fantasies would definitely make the problem worse.
Finding common ground would... Be hard. Not counting the fact that you aren't interested in anime, but because the other 2 should also know it to not become strange for them.
And heck, your group chose Eberron because you all thought it would be nice! So technically everyone picked a game they would like... No need to go anime.
If anything had to involve anime, that would be recommending him better stuff, heh. He'd get better inspirations (or he just doesn't and instead transfers a character from a serie you like into the game and you suddenly don't like that character anymore).

And, yeah, if it evers goes to hell, save the other 2 who look pretty legit.

JetThomasBoat
2015-01-04, 10:02 AM
Basically, he's like the guy that pretends to have read the book everyone is talking about so that he doesn't have to be called ignorant. Only applied to his whole life.
It's obvious he's grown in a very sheltered environment and I'm guessing he was bullied to hell and back when he was younger. Only he never grew out of that phase, his world did.



That actually a very good way of describing my life. Like seriously. Damn.

I mean clearly at some point I kind of became aware of it and steps were taken to mitigate it to some (read: not anywhere near full) extent, but as someone who...has really been like this for a very long time, I can honestly say that maybe you doing this for him would be a good thing. I think he could really use it. I know I could have.

aspekt
2015-01-04, 10:17 AM
If you do decide to take him on as a project you need to determine whether he has psychological problems simply with emotional development or if his issues are neurological, like autism.

Unfortunately you can only find out the latter by asking...gently.

If the latter really think hard and make sure you know *how* to deal with someone that is neurologically predisposed to certain behaviors.

For obvious reasons rpgs like this have a higher density of people dealing with one or the other.

Metahuman1
2015-01-05, 11:43 AM
Additionally, I don't know how that would solve the problem at all.

Find common ground is a common solution.

Kalmageddon
2015-01-07, 02:46 PM
Find common ground is a common solution.

It's not common ground, I want to play in an Eberron campaign, not in some anime fantasy.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-01-07, 03:03 PM
Additionally, I don't know how that would solve the problem at all.

Hm, never did get around to replying to this...

I agree. Let's take some anime with teenagers who have important roles.

1. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Ed and Al are part of unraveling and stopping the conspiracy, but only part. Mustang and his subordinates put in a lot of work, Hohenheim and an Ishvalan who researched alchemy play major roles, and there's also Dr. Marco, Izumi, General Grumsomething (I forget his name >.>), the Armstrongs, etc.

2. Yona of the Dawn. This is unfinished, although it's based off a manga so that might be finished. It only has thirteen episodes so far. The main antagonist is a usurper king who's nineteen and very good at what he's doing, clearly having spent time gathering a few trusted associates, earning the respect of his personal soldiers, and then planning how to take the throne and what to do afterwards to strengthen his kingdom. The protagonist is a sixteen-year-old sheltered princess, who has incredible willpower and charisma but definitely needs to grow stronger and wiser to be fit to rule. Her status as a fugitive, with her much more experienced childhood friend by her side, is the perfect catalyst for that growth.

Compare it to the teenage girl who's leading this secret group. Acts like she's nine, and gets to be in charge because she's cute.

Kalmageddon
2015-01-07, 03:08 PM
Compare it to the teenage girl who's leading this secret group. Acts like she's nine, and gets to be in charge because she's cute.

I don't think that's the IC reason, just the OOC one.
Not that it makes much of a difference. I'm always bothered when a powerful NPC doesn't shown any of the social skills and merits that they should have in order to hold that kind of power.

Mr Beer
2015-01-07, 05:52 PM
I don't think that's the IC reason, just the OOC one.
Not that it makes much of a difference. I'm always bothered when a powerful NPC doesn't shown any of the social skills and merits that they should have in order to hold that kind of power.

Yeah, there's a reason that the most powerful people around are not actually the ones who are toughest to beat in a personal death match. I mean in FRPG the situation is slightly different since people can acquire the abilities needed to decimate entire armies and gunboat diplomacy is still a form of diplomacy after all.

But it seems unlikely to me that every Archduke/High Priest/Supreme Governor would be the ultimate asskicker in any given city and even if they were, being flamboyantly arrogant to everyone around them would still undermine their position.

Metahuman1
2015-01-07, 06:26 PM
You could always show him less shonen-ey anime and get him to borrow form them instead. Stuff that's usually aimed at a different audience.


Better Gundam Series, Kill La Kill, Attack on Titan (Though I am LOATHED to EVER recommend someone watch it. Congrats, you might have found a nitch situation were it's useful.), X1999, Evangalion, Madoka Magica (Far more adult then anything with a title like that would be expected to be.), Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Some of the less kid friendly Miyazaki movies, Kino's Journy, things of this nature that will actually make him have to think.

Or at least forceably expose him to a way to doing things other then Plucky Shonen protag is the good guy, rest of the world sucks, and he forceably makes it better by hitting it in the face, one face at a time.

zinycor
2015-01-07, 06:33 PM
It's not common ground, I want to play in an Eberron campaign, not in some anime fantasy.


If i were you i would be trying to get another group

Reathin
2015-01-07, 07:42 PM
Now, I'm fairly confident that I'm having to deal with a Marty Stu, but my observations have been dismissed as just shortsighted or even more infuriatingly, attributed to an in-game dislike that my character has for the NPC. I mean, I've heard of the contrary, but a player's judgement being clouded by the emotions of his in-game character?

Oh, it can happen. I once created a cleric of Talos who had a raging hate for all things druidic (for a number of reasons, some of them surprisingly philosophical for a cleric of destruction) and it's completely infected my general opinion. Now I completely loath druids in just about any form.

Anyway, while I might not be able to judge perfectly without having full context...all that sounds pretty bad. Perhaps it would be best to go no further with this one, especially if you can't engineer any situation where you can get away from the NPC and especially especially if you've brought this up and have been dismissed.

Susano-wo
2015-01-08, 03:52 PM
You could always show him less shonen-ey anime and get him to borrow form them instead. Stuff that's usually aimed at a different audience.


Better Gundam Series, Kill La Kill, Attack on Titan (Though I am LOATHED to EVER recommend someone watch it. Congrats, you might have found a nitch situation were it's useful.), X1999, Evangalion, Madoka Magica (Far more adult then anything with a title like that would be expected to be.), Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Some of the less kid friendly Miyazaki movies, Kino's Journy, things of this nature that will actually make him have to think.

Or at least forceably expose him to a way to doing things other then Plucky Shonen protag is the good guy, rest of the world sucks, and he forceably makes it better by hitting it in the face, one face at a time.

Wait, Kill la Kill? I love that series but the only noticeable difference is going to be that the character is doing over the top anime stuff that involves magical outfits instead of shounen power sources. Not gonna be any better for the uninitiated :D
But it might be helpful if the guy could crib from more appropriate anime,(y'know like actual fantasy anime?) like Record of Lodoss War, or even Escaflowne(it is an Ebberon campaign: magical Mecha Golem seems to fit in just fine to me)

Metahuman1
2015-01-08, 04:34 PM
Ok, fine, take that one off the list. Rest of the point still stands.

Kinneus
2015-01-08, 05:13 PM
I didn't really see anything too bad in there up to the part where the NPC started going with your group on missions (without being invited I take it? If he was invited, then that's on the PCs, not the DM). After all, being told by the presumed villain that you've been fighting on the wrong side is a reasonably common trope/plot hook, and as someone pointed out, DMs often make NPCs that are important in the setting overpowered just to keep the PCs from summarily killing them like they were level-1 commoners.

I agree. Everything seemed fine to me up until the part where he was going with you on missions and "kill-stealing" the big bad villain. The DM clearly wants you to work for this guy as part of the campaign (at least for now) and probably made him a seriously bad mama-jamma in order to avoid you killing him for kicks.

If I was in your shoes I'd ride it out for a while. The DMPC tagging along on missions might be a temporary thing, either to establish something about the DMPC (he makes poor decisions/is a mega combat monster?) or it could be a safety measure (maybe he thought that combat was on the tough side, and wanted to give you a powerful ally just to ensure he didn't TPK on accident).

But if this persists for too long and becomes the "hey everybody look at my super tough NPC" show, then definitely voice your concerns.

Or hmm. You might as well just voice your concerns now? I'm just non-confrontational by nature.

Anyway, that first bit is a little railroad-y, but I don't know. I prefer that to the start of a campaign over a whole lot of wandering around grasping for plot hooks. But if the training wheels don't eventually come off, or if this NPC throat-punching villains before the actual PCs ever get the chance becomes a regular thing, I think you have every right to complain.

EDIT: Reading a bit further into the thread, I think I understand your trepidation better. It does sound like this guy is a new DM, and that he is seriously mucking things up. That said, I think you could maybe adjust your attitude a bit. Like somebody else suggested, maybe your grim and honorable elf could be facing a sort of cultural crisis once he realizes that his concept of "honor" doesn't really apply in (this new, crazy, insane, off-the-wall DM-Fiat version of) Sharn? Similarly this:

So we know OOC that the Emerald Circle is evilbad, basically. The druid's player didn't sign up for this, so he's left without a good motivation.

On the contrary, I think rooting out the evil in his compromised Druid Circle, reforming the Circle, and in general trying to turn his brothers/masters/former comrades from evil sounds like excellent motivation.
Although I completely get what you're saying; the new, over-eager DM might not have the panache to pull that off. I'd say you have a choice to make. Either accept that you're not going to have much control over the rail-roady plot and just try to enjoy the ride (while hopefully teaching the new folks a thing or two along the way), or else find a new game. Not great options, but I think if you stick it out with option #1 with a positive attitude, you could really teach these guys something.

But, on the other hand, that's not your job. If you aren't enjoying this bull and you don't think you can get into a headspace where you can enjoy it, I say it's best to opt out.

Kalmageddon
2015-02-03, 10:57 AM
Update:
The campaign resumed last week. We are not working directly under the DMPC anymore. However this is being treaded as a vacation instead of us walking out on them.
The session was awful, basically we spent half of it updating the character sheets of our characters (I was the only one who had done it already), which meant that we had very little actual play time. As if this wasn't enough, the Alchemist finally arrested the DMPC (who was collaborating because he knew he could escape :smallsigh:) and given him to the Trust. The Trust proceeded to reveal themselves as Evil, obviously,consequently this robs the gnomish Alchemist of the main motivation behind his character, joining the Trust. After what happened to the Druid I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm afraid all organizations in this campaign will be revealed as Evil and corrupted and the only good guys will be those of DMPC's Corp.

It was also revealed and are building warforged to use as slaves.
Only these warforged are not actual warforged, just mindless constructs, however this is still being treaded as horrible and illegal even if they are basically just building automatons to do heavy lifting. Whatever.

The DMPC ecaped and appeared in front of us while we were going back to Sharn to thank us for the good times. We almost rolled Initiative to attack him on sight but he unfortunately disappeared before we could do anything.

I've also found out that making the DM laugh with a joke is a terribile idea.
While we were in Zilargo me and another player started joking on stuff because we were bored. As it happens with gamer humor, this took a mundane event and made it hilarious and random. To be more specific, we joked that gnomes were chronic masturbators because of some random even that is not relevant. In the context of the game, the joke was fun and we all had a good laugh.
Only the DM never stopped. And he made it a thing.
From that point foward, all the gnomes we encountered gave the DM the chance of repeating the joke long after it had stopped being funny. It came to the point were one of us, exasperated, had to ask the DM to stop. He reacted by half-jokingly threatening to give some random penality to the player and then proceeded to repeat the gnomish masturbation joke a few more times before the session was over, oblivious to our annoyance.
Zilargo is now a (and forgive me for the mental image I'm about to give you) pastel-coloured, semen-stained dystopia where the Evil Trust is planning to unleash completely mindless not-warforged to conquer the world or something.

I fear the day we will travel to Valenar and I will witness how the DM will destroy my character's background as well.

zinycor
2015-02-03, 11:15 AM
Update:
The campaign resumed last week. We are not working directly under the DMPC anymore. However this is being treaded as a vacation instead of us walking out on them.
The session was awful, basically we spent half of it updating the character sheets of our characters (I was the only one who had done it already), which meant that we had very little actual play time. As if this wasn't enough, the Alchemist finally arrested the DMPC (who was collaborating because he knew he could escape :smallsigh:) and given him to the Trust. The Trust proceeded to reveal themselves as Evil, obviously,consequently this robs the gnomish Alchemist of the main motivation behind his character, joining the Trust. After what happened to the Druid I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm afraid all organizations in this campaign will be revealed as Evil and corrupted and the only good guys will be those of DMPC's Corp.

It was also revealed and are building warforged to use as slaves.
Only these warforged are not actual warforged, just mindless constructs, however this is still being treaded as horrible and illegal even if they are basically just building automatons to do heavy lifting. Whatever.

The DMPC ecaped and appeared in front of us while we were going back to Sharn to thank us for the good times. We almost rolled Initiative to attack him on sight but he unfortunately disappeared before we could do anything.

I've also found out that making the DM laugh with a joke is a terribile idea.
While we were in Zilargo me and another player started joking on stuff because we were bored. As it happens with gamer humor, this took a mundane event and made it hilarious and random. To be more specific, we joked that gnomes were chronic masturbators because of some random even that is not relevant. In the context of the game, the joke was fun and we all had a good laugh.
Only the DM never stopped. And he made it a thing.
From that point foward, all the gnomes we encountered gave the DM the chance of repeating the joke long after it had stopped being funny. It came to the point were one of us, exasperated, had to ask the DM to stop. He reacted by half-jokingly threatening to give some random penality to the player and then proceeded to repeat the gnomish masturbation joke a few more times before the session was over, oblivious to our annoyance.
Zilargo is now a (and forgive me for the mental image I'm about to give you) pastel-coloured, semen-stained dystopia where the Evil Trust is planning to unleash completely mindless not-warforged to conquer the world or something.

I fear the day we will travel to Valenar and I will witness how the DM will destroy my character's background as well.

What am going to say, may sound hard, but is the truth.

if you don't like the way the GM runs the game, be the GM yourself or find another GM. It's as simple as that, this guy may feel better being a player anyway, if you can convince the other players to follow you, excelent, if you can't, then fine.

The point is that you won't get the GM to change his ways only by asking him to do it. If you don't like the way he tell the story, I don't think that is very likely he will be able to just change.

Dycize
2015-02-03, 12:00 PM
Ah, the good old "turning a joke into a real thing".
I saw that happen once and it basically killed a game because the DM handled it poorly.
But hey, it was still a relatively tame joke in my case... Now -this-? That's just terrible.
And yeah, mindless warforged are basically golems/automatons. Which is... Fine?
Except here it's not.

Yeah no it's not gonna cut it, something has to be done with that DM. Even more organizations are turning evil and the DMPC escapes and it turns out to be part fo the plan when you just really wanted him out of the picture.
Valenar will probably turn into pointy eared orcs land with a small village of poor oppressed elves that are nice or something. And obviously you'll be expected to help them because they are not awful warmongers (remember, your ancestor was evil!).

Also... Threatening your players with a penalty because they tell you to stop it with a joke?!
If everything else was bad now that's just straightup terrible.
This is not playing a TTRPG in a set universe, that's writing original fiction and force feed it to your players.

Deophaun
2015-02-03, 12:12 PM
Obviously the DMPC's organization is located in a manifest zone, and the org has harnessed that somehow to turn the rest of Eberron evil so that they can feel justified in taking over.

Now that you know who the real villain is, strike!

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-03, 04:00 PM
OP... you have to get out of there. Not (just) because of his terribad DMing skills. Because you don't like anything he likes, and vice versa. That won't change even if you do somehow manage to instill good DMing in him without actually communicating with him about his shortcomings.

You can tell him it's a bad fit without telling him he's making it worse, but no matter how nice you are, you can't actually guarantee that he won't take it badly. I know how it goes, I'm a recovering people-pleaser myself, but at a certain point you have to accept that other people's reactions are not under your control. And then go look for someone who actually wants to run Eberron, possibly shoot him an email if you find someone who wants to play shounen anime, and stop trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. (Again, you don't have to tell the peg it's obnoxious, immature, and incompetent. Its squareness is reason enough.)

Or you could keep trying to endure the campaign, but that's a near guarantee of hurt feelings and resentment.

D+1
2015-02-03, 05:55 PM
First: Players are not responsible for maintaining the mental health and emotional stability of their DM's. You're not his mother, his therapist, or his social worker. That doesn't mean you can ignore that entirely, just that you're only responsible if you knowingly and intentionally cause it to be a greater issue.

Second: It sounds like the OP has already sufficiently voiced concerns to the DM and rather than a satisfactory response has only been given a greater concern over the DM's potentially irrational response to "non-compliance", in addition to just being an inexperienced and/or substandard DM.

Third: To continue to game in a situation like that is HIGHLY unlikely to be good for anyone. Not the OP, the other players, nor the DM in question.

Fourth: IN GAME responses and retaliations for OUT OF GAME problems is disrespectful to the target individual and demeaning to the perpetrator. If it's a problem that the DM is running a spotlight-hogging, Marty Stu DMPC then deal with it out of the game through open communication. Passive-aggressive actions of PC's in-game trying to kill off or neutralize the obvious-problem NPC and associated organization will not fix a bloody freaking thing and 99.9% will just make it worse.

Fifth: There is one point I'd make about the campaign world. Clearly the setting the OP wound up playing in is not the setting which was (sensibly) expected. That being the case, however, when it becomes clear that the DM was just not going to use the setting AS WRITTEN then the player has the obligation to either accept things as they come and NOT complain when it is simply continually demonstrated that the setting is being used largely just in name only and not in reliable details, OR to immediately make it clear to the DM that you "signed on" to game in the Eberron setting and if the DM was not going to run that setting in some recognizable fashion then you'd prefer to find another game. The longer the OP continues to game in this setting the more responsibility the OP has for accepting it as-is and ceasing to complain about what it clearly is not.

Conclusion:
The most sensible advice is to just walk away. No need for rage quitting or harsh words. Just a simple: "Thanks for your efforts but this game, this campaign is just not what I wanted so I won't be back." If the DM responds with pleas and promises you have two general options. If you TRULY believe it's possible then hang in a while longer, but make it ABSOLUTELY clear what it is that you, as a player, will expect and require to keep playing (not the least would seemingly be the DM actually reading and embracing the setting as written as much as he can). If you don't think it's possible, just respond calmly, "No thanks. I appreciate the offer but I've decided to look at other options." That's all that's needed or required. Your participation is still YOUR choice.

If you choose not to walk away then you owe it to everyone to make it clear why you're staying and under what conditions that choice will change. Communicate this with the other players and the DM. You have every right to enjoy the game but clearly there's issues that YOU need to have addressed. If you want to help the DM improve then by all means offer to do so with honest criticism, but if your help is not wanted you'd have to accept that.

In any D&D game you choose to participate in, play honestly and earnestly for what the game then IS, not out of spite and dissatisfaction for what it ISN'T.

endur
2015-02-03, 06:55 PM
My recommendation is that someone else in the group should volunteer to GM/DM for a while.

First, the best way to improve your GM/DM skills is to watch someone else.
Second, playing for a while will reduce the urge to have a GM NPC in the party.
Third, GMing is hard work; its not fair if other players are not taking their turn GMing.

Synovia
2015-02-03, 09:24 PM
OP... you have to get out of there. Not (just) because of his terribad DMing skills. Because you don't like anything he likes, and vice versa. That won't change even if you do somehow manage to instill good DMing in him without actually communicating with him about his shortcomings..

I agree with this - the interests here just aren't compatible. Everything else I'm taking with a grain of salt (hearing only 1 side).


leave the game - it's not working.