rarity to lvl ratio?

[Deremir]

I was wondering how rare characters of any given level should be? considering that a single epic level wizard could probably conquer the world were it not for random bands of 15th-20th heros, and that their still needs to be enough enemies of any given level to accommodate the pcs. what are your opinions on this? how rare should it be in the dnd mythos for a character to reach any given level?

[atemu1234]

Probably exponentially diminishing.

[Urpriest]

Check out the city demographics rules in the DMG. Those should give you a rough idea of how rare characters of a given level are in a typical setting. Note that they also give rules for randomly determining the size of a city, so by using both together you can get a detailed estimate for how common characters of a given level and class are in D&D.

[OldTrees1]

Lethality in a fair fight is fairly constant as levels increase. However at some point death/defeat does not equal the end. At that point there would be a different exponentially decaying curve. However that takes too long to calculate so stick with a simple "# at level N+1 = # a level N * r" where 0<r<1.

[Bakkan]

Check out the city demographics rules in the DMG. Those should give you a rough idea of how rare characters of a given level are in a typical setting. Note that they also give rules for randomly determining the size of a city, so by using both together you can get a detailed estimate for how common characters of a given level and class are in D&D.

Note that this is for the "standard" D&D setting. There are published settings that skew these numbers significantly one way or another; for instance, Eberron has almost no denizens above 10th level, while you can't seem to walk 10 yards in the Forgotten Realms without bumping into an epic wizard. If a DM is designing his own setting it can have just about any distribution he wants. Of course, figuring out the logical consequences of having a lot of high-level characters or almost no high-level characters around can take some time if done properly.

[SowZ]

I generally run settings where a 5th or 6th level character is a local hero and even a metropolis is unlikely to have anyone above level 10 or 11. People in the double digits could probably be counted on your fingers. The last game I ran had the Big Bad and the highest level character in the setting at level 16 or 17. (The party was around level 6 or 7 when the game ended.) But that is just me. I prefer to keep the vast majority of NPCs between 1-3. Other people have other strategies. I once played in a game where the high cleric of any given church, even a small congregation in a town of a thousand people, was like to be 20th level. Whatever works for you. But I find lower levels to be more manageable and you don't have to come up with reasons on why 'such and such spell' wouldn't revamp society.

[A_S]

But I find lower levels to be more manageable and you don't have to come up with reasons on why 'such and such spell' wouldn't revamp society.
I think this is an important point. If you want your setting to feel internally consistent and "lived-in," the answer to the OP's question is going to depend heavily on what kind of world the DM wants to create. The rarer high-level characters are (especially high-level spellcasters, of course), the more you can hew to the traditional "medieval-ish world with incidental magic" archetype that most D&D material assumes. The more common high-level characters are, the more it becomes necessary to think about how their abilities have shaped society, which tends to lead to something more like Tippy's Points of Light setting. Your world might differ in specifics from Tippy's in terms of exactly which radical magic-based societal changes are dominant, but common, powerful magic is going to do something to the world.

In general, if you want the world to look anything like most D&D settings (and make any sense), the number of tier 1-2 spellcasters above level 15 should be, like, single-digit at most. And even then, any one of them could radically change the status quo any time they decided they cared to. The Realms basically run on suspension-of-disbelief and "lalalalalala I'm not listening" in terms of why they resemble historical society in any meaningful way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Check out the city demographics rules in the DMG. Those should give you a rough idea of how rare characters of a given level are in a typical setting. Note that they also give rules for randomly determining the size of a city, so by using both together you can get a detailed estimate for how common characters of a given level and class are in D&D.

Very much this.

The natural extrapolation of those tables leads to around 95% of all class based humanoids being level 1 and most of those being commoners. The vast majority of the remaining 5% is composed of level 2 characters. Note, however, that those tables don't result in -any- arcanists capable of casting 9th level spells. It was always intended that the randomly generated population would be supplemented by specifically included NPC's of the DM's design.

[kalasulmar]

The Realms basically run on suspension-of-disbelief and "lalalalalala I'm not listening" in terms of why they resemble historical society in any meaningful way.

Or maybe the whole Mystra can cut you off from the Weave forever and you become a d4 hit die commoner thing keeps them in check from any Tippyverse shenanigans.

[A_S]

Or maybe the whole Mystra can cut you off from the Weave forever and you become a d4 hit die commoner thing keeps them in check from any Tippyverse shenanigans.
Is there any canonical evidence that Mystra would have anything against the idea of powerful arcanists employing their powers extensively to provide services for the rest of society? Or that she has a vested interest in keeping the general level of society stuck at "subsistence farming?"

This is a non-rhetorical question; I'm not super well-versed in Realms canon beyond what you get from the Baldur's Gate games and a couple of the books. My previous impression would have been that Mystra would be totally fine with stuff like Teleportation Circle mass travel or resetting True Creation traps, though.

[OldTrees1]

Is there any canonical evidence that Mystra would have anything against the idea of powerful arcanists employing their powers extensively to provide services for the rest of society? Or that she has a vested interest in keeping the general level of society stuck at "subsistence farming?"

This is a non-rhetorical question; I'm not super well-versed in Realms canon beyond what you get from the Baldur's Gate games and a couple of the books. My previous impression would have been that Mystra would be totally fine with stuff like Teleportation Circle mass travel or resetting True Creation traps, though.

It is important to remember than RAW is an imperfect model of RAI which in turn is an imperfect model of how particular D&D worlds work. Resetting True Creation traps are probably a fabrication of these imperfections.

[A_S]

It is important to remember than RAW is an imperfect model of RAI which in turn is an imperfect model of how particular D&D worlds work. Resetting True Creation traps are probably a fabrication of these imperfections.
Sure, so maybe some of the specifics of the Points of Light setting can be dismissed as "the game designers didn't take all of the RAW into account." But it doesn't take any weird RAW edge cases to render a setting like the Realms implausible. The single most fundamentally world-changing application of magic in the standard Tippyverse setting is a large-scale, but totally non-cheesy, application of Teleportation Circle.

[OldTrees1]

Sure, so maybe some of the specifics of the Points of Light setting can be dismissed as "the game designers didn't take all of the RAW into account." But it doesn't take any weird RAW edge cases to render a setting like the Realms implausible. The single most fundamentally world-changing application of magic in the standard Tippyverse setting is a large-scale, but totally non-cheesy, application of Teleportation Circle.

See "RAI is an imperfect model of Faeuren" as a possible answer.

[A_S]

See "RAI is an imperfect model of Faeuren" as a possible answer.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that; I guess what I was referring to as "suspension of disbelief" above is really "not worrying about the fact that the setting doesn't match what the rules of the game would actually produce."

That's not, like, the end of the world; obviously lots of people (including me) have had fun gaming experiences in settings that had this issue. But it is, to me, a weakness of a setting. I find that I'm more able to immerse myself in a game world if I can look at it and go, "yeah, I can see how a world that runs on these rules would have produced a society that looks like this one." And, as far as the OP's question goes, that to me means either very few high-level spellcasters, or Tippyverse-level deviation from traditional medieval-ish setting characteristics.

[TypoNinja]

Or maybe the whole Mystra can cut you off from the Weave forever and you become a d4 hit die commoner thing keeps them in check from any Tippyverse shenanigans.

Please, for an all powerful god of magic Mystra is a chump.

She's manage to get killed something like 4 or 5 times.

An Arcane caster with half her level, and none of her divine powers figured out not dying permanently, yet Queen Craptastic has managed to get offed multiple times.

All her supporters can throw out to defend her relevance is "Blah blah, wave, blah blah deny magic." Completely ignoring the fact that shes been punished for denying magic at least once, there's another god out there who will happily grant you access to magic again just out of spite to screw Mystra once you are strong enough to be attracting divine attention, and oh yea, Epic Magic doesn't rely on the Weave.

[Emperor Tippy]

Very much this.

The natural extrapolation of those tables leads to around 95% of all class based humanoids being level 1 and most of those being commoners. The vast majority of the remaining 5% is composed of level 2 characters. Note, however, that those tables don't result in -any- arcanists capable of casting 9th level spells. It was always intended that the randomly generated population would be supplemented by specifically included NPC's of the DM's design.

The Epic Level Handbook continues that table to include planar metropolises and level 17+ full casters.


Or maybe the whole Mystra can cut you off from the Weave forever and you become a d4 hit die commoner thing keeps them in check from any Tippyverse shenanigans.

That is actually directly against Mystra's characterization. She would wholeheartedly support Tippyverse style things. One of her primary goals is to increase the number of arcane magic users in the world and the acceptance of arcane magic.

[Ruethgar]

That is actually directly against Mystra's characterization. She would wholeheartedly support Tippyverse style things. One of her primary goals is to increase the number of arcane magic users in the world and the acceptance of arcane magic.

But also note that, though it lacks RAW rules, The Weave can be damaged by excessive use of magic. She may be forced to cut people off to save it.

[kalasulmar]

Please, for an all powerful god of magic Mystra is a chump.

She's manage to get killed something like 4 or 5 times.

An Arcane caster with half her level, and none of her divine powers figured out not dying permanently, yet Queen Craptastic has managed to get offed multiple times.

All her supporters can throw out to defend her relevance is "Blah blah, wave, blah blah deny magic." Completely ignoring the fact that shes been punished for denying magic at least once, there's another god out there who will happily grant you access to magic again just out of spite to screw Mystra once you are strong enough to be attracting divine attention, and oh yea, Epic Magic doesn't rely on the Weave.

That is definitely the one divine post I would not like to have in FR. Seems to be all the other gods kinda don't care if you die. Multiple times.

[Urpriest]

The Epic Level Handbook continues that table to include planar metropolises and level 17+ full casters.


Yes, but it gives no chance to roll them randomly. They only happen with DM choice, so by default they're a set of measure zero in an infinite universe.

Granted, they still exist, so if you go to the City of Brass you can find a level 17+ arcanist.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Weave is generally only damaged by excessive use of magic of spell levels 8, 9, Epic, and those old weird versions of above 9 spells...

[SinsI]

AFAIK, standard distribution is:
number of character of lvl 2 is 50% of lvl 1
After that, number of characters of X +2 lvl is 50% of number of X lvl.

[Deremir]

So I decided to figure out the maximum level a spellcaster could be before they would significantly alter society, and work backward from there to figure out demographics. To me it seems like the only impact an 8th level cleric would have on society would be magical lighting (for those who could afford the 100 gp fee required for continual flame) and possibly a decreased likelihood of plague due to cure disease, although once a plague started an 8th lvl cleric wouldn't have enough uses per day to stop it.

On the arcane front things are a tad bit more open to interpretation. I figure that like a cleric 8th level would be the max a wizard could be before having a significant effect on society (teleport, magic jar, polymorph, permanency), but it seems that baring magical protection any 5th level wizard could magic himself into being the kings right hand man, and even a 1st level wizard with enough intelligence could probably magic his way into any royal court that dosent have any other spellcasters in it. so that would mean that probably every royal court, or significantly powerful noble, would have at minimum a 3rd level arcane caster.

what do you guys think? have i missed anything? are any of my numbers off?

[Ruethgar]

I have an E6 build built for building that gets about a 93% reduction in cost, 92% in time, 68% in XP and can create spell traps of every 3rd level or lower spell. That removes the need for cooks, maids, all unskilled labor, stone quarries, doctors and farmers.

Pretty much any magic user of level 3 or more can drastically alter society with spell traps. Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Prestidigitation and Grass Growth are all level 0, available with just feats, and can drastically alter society. Imagine a world where you don't have to make any good tasting food, you don't have to wash clothes, dishes, or floors, you never get food poisoning or ailments from polluted water, you can have a thriving town in the desert without an oasis, and you can make harvestable crop in a matter of days rather than months.

You may say that not everyone is a mage so it can still be rare, but eventually a Halloran mage will be born who is super good and helpful NG or CG and starts a school for Magical Training these spells.

[Urpriest]

AFAIK, standard distribution is:
number of character of lvl 2 is 50% of lvl 1
After that, number of characters of X +2 lvl is 50% of number of X lvl.

That's only true for PC classed characters. There are a whole lot more level 1 NPC-classed characters.

[TypoNinja]

So I decided to figure out the maximum level a spellcaster could be before they would significantly alter society, and work backward from there to figure out demographics. To me it seems like the only impact an 8th level cleric would have on society would be magical lighting (for those who could afford the 100 gp fee required for continual flame) and possibly a decreased likelihood of plague due to cure disease, although once a plague started an 8th lvl cleric wouldn't have enough uses per day to stop it.

On the arcane front things are a tad bit more open to interpretation. I figure that like a cleric 8th level would be the max a wizard could be before having a significant effect on society (teleport, magic jar, polymorph, permanency), but it seems that baring magical protection any 5th level wizard could magic himself into being the kings right hand man, and even a 1st level wizard with enough intelligence could probably magic his way into any royal court that dosent have any other spellcasters in it. so that would mean that probably every royal court, or significantly powerful noble, would have at minimum a 3rd level arcane caster.

what do you guys think? have i missed anything? are any of my numbers off?

8th Level cleric can stop plagues pretty easily. Remember you are allowed to substitute your heal check for a persons fort save on poison and disease if you are caring for them. Caring takes 15 minutes. Even completely unoptimized and taking a 10 an 8th level Cleric passes the dc20 mark. He'll keep your typical diseases under control easily. DC 25 with only mild optimization.

As for level distribution, What about the Leadership chart? That represents your ability to attract followers, is the frequency of higher levels a function of your reputation or the population?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Epic Level Handbook continues that table to include planar metropolises and level 17+ full casters.

That table isn't a continuation, it's a replacement. A DM is, of course, free to use it but it does change the dynamic of the highest level characters in the world rather significantly. The bottom of the food chain is still the 90%+ of the population stuck at level 1, though.

[Deremir]

8th Level cleric can stop plagues pretty easily. Remember you are allowed to substitute your heal check for a persons fort save on poison and disease if you are caring for them. Caring takes 15 minutes. Even completely unoptimized and taking a 10 an 8th level Cleric passes the dc20 mark. He'll keep your typical diseases under control easily. DC 25 with only mild optimization.

As for level distribution, What about the Leadership chart? That represents your ability to attract followers, is the frequency of higher levels a function of your reputation or the population?

this seems only to be true if a successful fort safe/heal removes a disease, it dosent does it? assuming it dosent then if you only catch the disease two weeks after it first appeared then it will be too lakte for one or two 8th level clerics to stop it


I have an E6 build built for building that gets about a 93% reduction in cost, 92% in time, 68% in XP and can create spell traps of every 3rd level or lower spell. That removes the need for cooks, maids, all unskilled labor, stone quarries, doctors and farmers.

Pretty much any magic user of level 3 or more can drastically alter society with spell traps. Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Prestidigitation and Grass Growth are all level 0, available with just feats, and can drastically alter society. Imagine a world where you don't have to make any good tasting food, you don't have to wash clothes, dishes, or floors, you never get food poisoning or ailments from polluted water, you can have a thriving town in the desert without an oasis, and you can make harvestable crop in a matter of days rather than months.

You may say that not everyone is a mage so it can still be rare, but eventually a Halloran mage will be born who is super good and helpful NG or CG and starts a school for Magical Training these spells.

what exactly are spell traps, and should i have any qualms against banning them on the virtue of them sounding broken?

[Kelb_Panthera]

this seems only to be true if a successful fort safe/heal removes a disease, it dosent does it? assuming it dosent then if you only catch the disease two weeks after it first appeared then it will be too lakte for one or two 8th level clerics to stop it

While one successful save doesn't remove a disease, two in a row do. A cleric over the course of 2 days can remove a disease from a patient with only 30 minutes of work. Over 15 hours of a given day (8 to rest, 15 minutes for preparing spells and 45 for lunch, taking up the other 9) such a cleric can cure 60 people of a disease, unless it's an atypical one, in just two days. However, unlike real life, there's no protection from being reinfected by the same disease immediately. Quarantine is -much- more important for airborne disease in D&D than it is in real life.




What exactly are spell traps, and should i have any qualms against banning them on the virtue of them sounding broken?

Spell traps are, I'm assuming, traps that cast spells when they're triggered, per the rules in the DMG. Banning them is the easiest way to keep them from being a problem.

[TypoNinja]

Spell traps are, I'm assuming, traps that cast spells when they're triggered, per the rules in the DMG. Banning them is the easiest way to keep them from being a problem.

Self resetting magical traps that cast a spell when triggered, yes. Potential to be very very abuseable.

Don't need to ban them however, just need to remember that they are not for player use.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Self resetting magical traps that cast a spell when triggered, yes. Potential to be very very abuseable.

Don't need to ban them however, just need to remember that they are not for player use.

Except their creation is very clearly defined and anyone, PC or NPC, with craft wondrous item can make the stupid things. You can't say no to a player without explicitly saying "You can't have this thing that the rules say you can." That's a ban. It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth of any player that then sees you using them after explicitly telling him he can't. Better to just remove them from the game outright unless you want a more involved fix.

[Urpriest]

Except their creation is very clearly defined and anyone, PC or NPC, with craft wondrous item can make the stupid things. You can't say no to a player without explicitly saying "You can't have this thing that the rules say you can." That's a ban. It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth of any player that then sees you using them after explicitly telling him he can't. Better to just remove them from the game outright unless you want a more involved fix.

A pretty simple fix is to only allow the ones that are pre-statted in the books. This kind of neuters spell turrets, but the damn things deserve neutering.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I allow them by modifying their cost by mobility, ala SBG's guidelines for magic architecture. It's just a simple change to the constant in the formula.

Caster level times spell level times X; where X equals 500 if the trap is completely immobile, i.e. built into a structure and can't be removed without destroying it, 1000 if the trap is technically mobile but difficult to move, i.e. built into the base of a statue or the lid of a large, iron chest, and 2000 if the trap is easily portable, i.e. built into the clasp of a locket or the buckle of a backpack.

I find this takes care of most abuses.

[TypoNinja]

I allow them by modifying their cost by mobility, ala SBG's guidelines for magic architecture. It's just a simple change to the constant in the formula.

Caster level times spell level times X; where X equals 500 if the trap is completely immobile, i.e. built into a structure and can't be removed without destroying it, 1000 if the trap is technically mobile but difficult to move, i.e. built into the base of a statue or the lid of a large, iron chest, and 2000 if the trap is easily portable, i.e. built into the clasp of a locket or the buckle of a backpack.

I find this takes care of most abuses.

Err that's kind of what I meant. I was once in a game where the DM let the skill monkey take the disarmed trap away with him. Not a good plan, since he effectively had a Rod of Flame Strike at far too low a level for that kind of power.

Assuming SHBG rules for stationary items that can't be removed is definitely the way to go. People who want to dump time money and XP into their own are welcome to it, they need a place to instal it that they control, and they can't bring it with them. Limited capacity to do damage, large investment. Add in the fact that DM's get approval for custom items, and you've got it pretty covered.

[SinsI]

I find this takes care of most abuses.

One problem that I see left is that with traps you can trigger multiple spells with one action. Something like "buff me and my whole party with a bunch of spells" is not very nice as an encounter opener. Especially if the action is a move action.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One problem that I see left is that with traps you can trigger multiple spells with one action. Something like "buff me and my whole party with a bunch of spells" is not very nice as an encounter opener. Especially if the action is a move action.

That would be gods-awful expensive. Say, blink and mirror image.

2*3*2000=12k for mirror image

2*3*2000=12k for blink

that's 24k for just two low-level effects. It adds up too quickly to become a problem for the most part. They also take twice as long to craft as a normal magic device.

[OldTrees1]

That would be gods-awful expensive. Say, blink and mirror image.

2*3*2000=12k for mirror image

2*3*2000=12k for blink

that's 24k for just two low-level effects. It adds up too quickly to become a problem for the most part. They also take twice as long to craft as a normal magic device.

A Belt of Strength +4 is 16K. Bull's Strength is a 2nd level spell for +4 Strength.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A Belt of Strength +4 is 16K. Bull's Strength is a 2nd level spell for +4 Strength.

One can be suppressed for 1d4 rounds while the other can be outright removed by a simple dispel magic. You'd need to reactivate the trap, at least a move action, to get the bonus back.

More importantly, since all custom items have to be run by the DM, this one in particular can be vetoed on the basis that the gauntlets/girdle of ogre/giant strength already exist and this is too close.

[SinsI]

2*3*2000=12k for mirror image
2*3*2000=12k for blink
getting a TPK = priceless

True Strike; Blades of Fire; Critical Strike; Golem Strike; Guided Shot; Sniper's Shot; Swift Expeditious Retreat; Lightfoot; Swift Invisibility; Snake's Swiftness; Rhino's Rush...
All of those are 1st level spells that are balanced by having extremely short duration;
if you can activate several of them off of a Move Action - 2k is an absolute bargain for that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

getting a TPK = priceless

True Strike; Blades of Fire; Critical Strike; Golem Strike; Guided Shot; Sniper's Shot; Swift Expeditious Retreat; Lightfoot; Swift Invisibility; Snake's Swiftness; Rhino's Rush...
All of those are 1st level spells that are balanced by having extremely short duration;
if you can activate several of them off of a Move Action - 2k is an absolute bargain for that.

True strike is a no go. Numeric bonuses are covered by different parts of the magic item guidelines.

I'm not scared of golem strike, rogues need the boost but greater demolition crystal is a thing.

Sniper's shot is, again, not that impressive even on the long term so I'm actually okay with that one.

Swift expeditious retreat = boots of speed.

With Lightfoot you're giving up a move action so you can move without provoking. Not a big deal really

Swift invisibility is covered by ring of invisibility,

Snake's swiftness and Rhino's rush don't actually work on traps. If you have to spend a move action to activate them then you're only getting two attacks from snake's swiftness, the one from the effect and your normal standard action attack, and you don't have the full-round action to charge for rhino's rush.

The one's that already have equivalents simply get vetoed for the reason of those items' existence. The others aren't actually a problem when you examine them. That's one of the bright sides of having the guidelines require direct approval instead of needing a direct disallowance.

[Flickerdart]

their still needs to be enough enemies of any given level to accommodate the pcs
As a character levels up, the scope in which they operate expands as well. Consider: a 1st level band of militiamen from a village might be hailed as heroes when they flush out the nearby goblin camp - but there are 1st level heroes and goblin camps at nearly every village. Maybe the church of Pelor hears of their exploits and calls them to the local castle, to fight an infestation of undead; every castle in the world might have such a problem, but there are many more small villages than castles. After the PCs triumph, they catch the notice of the local count, who asks them to fight a bigger threat that's plaguing him, and so on and so forth. Sooner or later, the PCs gain teleportation and then planar travel powers, and at that point all you need is 13.3 creatures of that CR in the multiverse, not in any particular place.

Just because 20th level guys fight balors in the Abyss doesn't mean that there need to be balors running around where the level 1 heroes are.

[Scipio_77]

I was wondering how rare characters of any given level should be? considering that a single epic level wizard could probably conquer the world were it not for random bands of 15th-20th heros, and that their still needs to be enough enemies of any given level to accommodate the pcs. what are your opinions on this? how rare should it be in the dnd mythos for a character to reach any given level?

A society isn't necessarily irrational, but it is partially based on irrational elements. Consider the discussion on how a cleric with lvl 8 spells would affect diseases in the light of looking at our world and asking how modern medicine would affect diseases (modern medicine not being as powerful as D&D divine magic in all aspects, but you get the point): The majority of the world just keeps on trucking like modern medicine did not even exist.

You can use similar equivalents for arcane magic and other abilities. That the possibility for society on a large scale to take on certain directions exist and that it would be rational to go in those directions does not equate to such a development taking place. You have regions in our world where modern technology exists, where natural resources and wealth is abundant - but the majority of the country is still pre-industrial.

So in essence it is very much up the storyteller. He is the one who decides on culture, and whereas thought experiments predict the hypothetical... culture predicts actions.

[OldTrees1]

One can be suppressed for 1d4 rounds while the other can be outright removed by a simple dispel magic. You'd need to reactivate the trap, at least a move action, to get the bonus back.

More importantly, since all custom items have to be run by the DM, this one in particular can be vetoed on the basis that the gauntlets/girdle of ogre/giant strength already exist and this is too close.

True. I was saying that we have a specific useful 2nd level effect priced at 16K(at suppression for 1d4 rounds). Needing a move action to reactivate would reduce the fair market price so maybe the 12K for a Blur trap is not too expensive. Obviously traps would have to be run by the DM, so I too don't see any abuse coming out of this.

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that spell traps do not fall under the custom item guidelines, they have actual rules instead of suggestions. This is one of the reasons they can be used in TO of society more readily, because they are RAW legal in the game without GM adjudication unlike custom items.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It should be noted that spell traps do not fall under the custom item guidelines, they have actual rules instead of suggestions. This is one of the reasons they can be used in TO of society more readily, because they are RAW legal in the game without GM adjudication unlike custom items.

They're in a different place in the DMG but they're still custom items being crafted with craft wondrous item. This argument is a complete non-starter.

[Magma Armor0]

One can be suppressed for 1d4 rounds while the other can be outright removed by a simple dispel magic. You'd need to reactivate the trap, at least a move action, to get the bonus back.

More importantly, since all custom items have to be run by the DM, this one in particular can be vetoed on the basis that the gauntlets/girdle of ogre/giant strength already exist and this is too close.

But casting the dispel magic is probably a standard action. So you're trading a move action for your opponent's standard; which leaves you a bit ahead on action economy. Plus your opponent will eventually run out of spells, while you can keep pushing the big red button or whatever.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But casting the dispel magic is probably a standard action. So you're trading a move action for your opponent's standard; which leaves you a bit ahead on action economy. Plus your opponent will eventually run out of spells, while you can keep pushing the big red button or whatever.

That only works if the foe is alone and quickened dispel says "hi."

[Lanson]

... All this makes me think of is: Where are we on digitally modelling a DnD world using generated maps and fully generated towns/cities/kingdoms including all pc and monster races and follow it from the dawn of civilization and through the discovery of magic through to it's most logical conclusion. Would there be time to the tippyverse to be created, or will monsters with superior racials conquer us beforehand?

[Melcar]

Please, for an all powerful god of magic Mystra is a chump.

She's manage to get killed something like 4 or 5 times.

An Arcane caster with half her level, and none of her divine powers figured out not dying permanently, yet Queen Craptastic has managed to get offed multiple times.

Who are we talking about here? Mystryl sacrifised herself, Mystra 1.0 got killed in mortal form by Helm, and Mystra (Midnight) 2.0 was sneak attacked by the rogue Cyric (Midnights old party member), who was a greater god aswell, under the support of another greater god... And what its worth... AFAIK Mystra is not finished. Her chosen functions as phylactories of some sort. And it has been hinted that Larloch, by forging the Bluefire items were infusing them with the power of Mystra/ the Weave thus ensuring her foever after, just as the Lich who protects them. THis is apparently also why he carries a Cart Blanche in the concern of magic and how powerful/dangerous he may create.



But also note that, though it lacks RAW rules, The Weave can be damaged by excessive use of magic. She may be forced to cut people off to save it.

Im pretty sure its only the old above 9th levels spells and specific magic damaging spells like mordenkeinen's distjunction spell that can actually harm the weave - when she is herself un injured or otherwise not in danger and therefore tending to the weave.

[TypoNinja]

Who are we talking about here? Mystryl sacrifised herself, Mystra 1.0 got killed in mortal form by Helm, and Mystra (Midnight) 2.0 was sneak attacked by the rogue Cyric (Midnights old party member), who was a greater god aswell, under the support of another greater god... And what its worth... AFAIK Mystra is not finished. Her chosen functions as phylactories of some sort. And it has been hinted that Larloch, by forging the Bluefire items were infusing them with the power of Mystra/ the Weave thus ensuring her foever after, just as the Lich who protects them. THis is apparently also why he carries a Cart Blanche in the concern of magic and how powerful/dangerous he may create.


I meant the office of the God of Magic collectively. Nobody who gets that job has it end well for them, and despite being (supposedly) all powerful masters of magic none of them seem to be able to set up any kind of emergency/contingency plans.

[Yahzi]

... All this makes me think of is: Where are we on digitally modelling a DnD world using generated maps and fully generated towns/cities/kingdoms
It's like you read my mind...

But my world uses exponential XP - the cost doubles every level. Also, monsters come out of the ground and eat anyone who gets to 17th level. So that tends to keep the levels around 9-12ish.

I think the proper distribution of levels is the same as the distribution of power. Thus, the local baron is 6th level dude. He has a personal entourage of 2-4 people who are about 5th level. He employs a few dozen 1st level knights and maybe a couple of 2-3 level captains. The King is higher level, because he has a dozen Barons under him. At 9th level he is hard enough to kill that you can't just assassinate him.

The head of a church (think Pope or Dali Lama) is 9-12th level. Wizards are 5-7th level if they work for kings, and 9-11th if they are kings in their own right.

Emperors, Saints, and Arch wizards are 12-16th level. There's maybe one of them in a 1000 square miles.

17th level people are interplanar adventurers or servants of gods.

[Melcar]

... All this makes me think of is: Where are we on digitally modelling a DnD world using generated maps and fully generated towns/cities/kingdoms including all pc and monster races and follow it from the dawn of civilization and through the discovery of magic through to it's most logical conclusion. Would there be time to the tippyverse to be created, or will monsters with superior racials conquer us beforehand?

I would very much like to see a google earth kind of a thing, with Faerun!!!!