Item Creation Cost

[Crazysaneman]

So I have a player who wants to create a custom item at some point in the game. the basics of the item are as follows:

Item is a bag made of black dragonhide
When opened and a command word is spoken, this bag releases a shadow image of a black dragon at a target square.
When the dragon explodes in the target square, it creates a 5' burst Daze effect with no HD cap (dm fiat as a 3rd level spell) and an enemy in the square takes 1d4+2 negative levels as if it was enervation with a bonus. There are saves allowed, of course.
The item can be fired once a round
The item has infinite charges

Before any comments about it, YES I am aware it has ridiculous power, and YES I'm aware it will be expensive.

Any help would be appreciated, especially in the rundown. The closest I can come up with is spell level X caster level X 2000gp for each effect, with the secondary effect costing 75% of its value.
Min caster level 12 for enervation
12x4x2,000=96000
(12x3x2,000)x.75=54,000
96,000+54,000=150,000
That seems really cheap to me for something that can basically obliterate anything in a few rounds...
Anyone?

[heavyfuel]

Adding extra effects shouldn't cost 75%, but 150% according to the SRD's guidelines, and since it's a command word item it should have the "base" multiplier be 1'800 gp, not 2'000.

Now, the Daze effect being 3rd level is way off. Daze is lv 0 and affects creatures of up to 4HD, Daze Monster is lv 2 and caps at 6 HD. That's 2 extra spell levels for 2 extra HD. For it to be uncapped, I'd say at least lv 7. And that's being generous

So you have (13*7*1800) + (13*4*1800*1.5) = 304'200

By WBL guidelines, he should only be able to get it by lv 17. More if you go by the whole "no one item should cost over half the character's wealth" deal, although I'm pretty sure that only applies for character creation (although, how he just happens to have 90% of his wealth laying around at this point means something is not right)

Considering it's a magic item, which offers really low saves (I assume the Enervation effect has a save as well since it doesn't need to hit touch AC? If so, the enervation should have a DC 16 save and the daze should have a DC 20, both incredibly low), and the fact that he is freaking lv 17, it doesn't sound too powerful, especially when most tough enemies will immune at least to the mind affecting nature of the Daze and probably the energy drain as well. They'll actually probably make both DCs as well... I say it's actually underpowered for the level.

Edit: That puts the item at Epic level prices, so the cost is actually 3'042'000 GP... Yeah, he's not getting the item any time soon (which is probably for the best, given how underpowered it is)

[Crazysaneman]

Can you show me an area in the creation rules that states that 150% cost? I can't seem to find it in my book.
Also, good call on the 7th spell level requirement on the unlimited daze, but there is a story reason it's 3rd for him. It's a mythic thing. That being said, I do agree with your analysis for non-mythic dm-fiated PC's :smallwink:

[heavyfuel]

Can you show me an area in the creation rules that states that 150% cost? I can't seem to find it in my book.
Also, good call on the 7th spell level requirement on the unlimited daze, but there is a story reason it's 3rd for him. It's a mythic thing. That being said, I do agree with your analysis for non-mythic dm-fiated PC's :smallwink:

It's in the SRD, here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

"Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5"

[P.F.]

150% is for multiple different effects, or combining slotted items. Multiple similar effects iirc have the "secondary" at a discount.



That seems really cheap to me for something that can basically obliterate anything in a few rounds...
Anyone?

If they fail the saves. The save DC's might be too low for characters at-level with this cost. Typically, the DC for a static item save is calculated by the minimum bonus needed to cast the spell, in this case a DC 16 save against the enervation and DC 14 for the daze effect?

This price is for 5 times/day. It's the "special" section which requires dividing by a dividend to calculate the cost but basically it's 5/day at cost listed, more or less makes it cheaper or more expensive.

Continuous would be more for something that has an ongoing duration, whereas the net effect you describe seems more like an instantaneous, use-activated charges-per-day thing. To make a charged item having unlimited charges iirc it's calculated as if it has 100 charges, that would be 150,000/(5/100)=3,000,000gp.

Why did you decide to make it "use activated?" Wouldn't a command word make more sense?

[heavyfuel]

So you have (13*7*1800) + (13*4*1800*1.5) = 304'200


Ok, if it's going to be lv 3, then it shoud be

(13*7*1800) + (13*3*1800*1.5) = 269'100 GP. Still an Epic Item

You could reduce that by using a lower CL for the Daze, making it

(13*7*1800) + (5*3*1800*1.5) = 204'300. But it's still an Epic Item...

Edit: Just noticed you tagged the post with the Pathfinder tag... Was it there before? Cuz all advice I just gave is for 3.5, not PF

[Crazysaneman]

150% is for multiple different effects, or combining slotted items. Multiple similar effects iirc have the "secondary" at a discount.

Why did you decide to make it "use activated?" Wouldn't a command word make more sense?
It is a command word...
Also, thanks for all the great replies :)

[Crazysaneman]

Ok, if it's going to be lv 3, then it shoud be

(13*7*1800) + (13*3*1800*1.5) = 269'100 GP. Still an Epic Item

You could reduce that by using a lower CL for the Daze, making it

(13*7*1800) + (5*3*1800*1.5) = 204'300. But it's still an Epic Item...

Edit: Just noticed you tagged the post with the Pathfinder tag... Was it there before? Cuz all advice I just gave is for 3.5, not PF
Yea it was there before XD I appreciate it none the less, it gives me something to consider.

[Red Fel]

Here we go. According to this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values), when estimating the value of a magic item in PF, take the most expensive ability it has. If there are similar abilities (or added effects, I suppose), add 75% of the cost of the next most expensive, and then 1/2 of the cost of all additional abilities. If there are non-similar abilities, add their full costs together. Since the abilities of this bag all tend to be spell-effects, I'd call them similar.

There's a table to the right; let's run down it. First, looking at what the item does: It creates the image of a dragon. Unless this image actually does something, such as requiring enemies to disbelieve it, I'd call that a thematic ability and throw it on for free. It casts what the DM has fiated as a third-level spell. Okay, a third-level spell, that's spell level x caster level x 2,000, or 6,000 x CL. It casts Enervation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enervation) with some big bonuses. First off, Enervation deals 1d4 negative levels, not 1d4+2. Second, it's a single-target ray spell, not designed to hit multiple targets in a radius. Third off, it's a 4th-level spell. Even assuming that you were counting the Enervation effect as a 4th-level spell - and I'd bump it up more - that's 4 x CL x 2,000, or 8,000 x CL. So far, this is your costliest component. It can be used once per round. If we call that command use, it's total cost x 1,800. It's worth noting, however, that the illustration of a command-activated item is the Cape of the Mountebank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cape-of-the-mountebank), which can only be command-activated once per day. So I'd say instead that it's an unlimited use item, despite its 1/round limitations, which is cost x 2,000. Lastly, as a bag, it is a slotless item, which means that it has "No space limitation." Double its cost.

So, let's not even assume a caster level for those abilities. The most expensive ability is the Enervation, so that goes for a full 8,000 x CL. Then we add the Daze, which costs only 75%, which is 4,500 x CL. Add them together, that's 12,500 x CL. I'll give you the dragon image or free, because I'm nice that way. Next, we multiply the entire thing by 2,000 for unlimited use. So far we're up to 25,000,000 x CL. Now we double it, because it's slotless. That's a 50,000,000 x CL item.

Now, let's look at CL. The earliest that classic Enervation could be cast is Wizard 7. So the lowest CL we could put on that item is 7. That means our cost, assuming I've done the math right, is 350,000,000 gp. If we want to give the dragon image an actual spell, such as Silent Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image), that would increase the cost further. Substantially.

[P.F.]

The daze effect strikes me as being no more powerful than Symbol of Hilarity, a 4th level spell that effectively dazes everyone in range for round/level with no HD restriction, and knocks them prone to boot. The fact that daze monster is a tragically bad, non-scalable spell doesn't make a generic daze effect somehow as good as other 7th level enchantments. Intuitively I would agree that the effect, even with a small radius, is on par with a 3rd-level spell, maybe 4th. I'm assuming the bonus effect on the enervation has to do with the 12th caster level and not a metamagic which would also raise the spell level.

I understand the no space limitation multiplier as referring to things like ioun stones or toe rings that have continuous effects and should take up a body slot but don't, not things like swords and bags that you have to whip out and use in your hand.

So all told, I ended up with the following formula,


Enervation . . . + Daze (secondary)
(4 * 12 * 1800) + (3 * 5 * 1800 * .75) = 106,650gp, for 5 uses per day.

For comparison, that's between a +7 and +8 magic weapon, or about the same as the +4 inherent ability bonus items (manual of quickness +4 etc).

Isn't creating magic items fun?

[Red Fel]

I understand the no space limitation multiplier as referring to things like ioun stones or toe rings that have continuous effects and should take up a body slot but don't, not things like swords and bags that you have to whip out and use in your hand.

Swords are weapons, which are their own category. Other magic items are either worn or slotless. This page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items) lists the slots of the body.

A bag does not belong in one of those slots, unless the PC in question is particularly unsightly or has a bizarre fondness for potato sack races or sack puppets.

Here is an example of a slotless item - the Traveler's Any-Tool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/traveler-s-any-tool). Like the bag in question, it is a held item, which has to be "whip[ped] out and use[d] in your hand." It is nonetheless slotless. So is the bag. Cost is doubled.

Now, how did we get from unlimited uses 1/round to 5/day? I think I missed that step. But let's assume that's true. Let's also assume that you have a different CL for each of the spells involved, fine.

The Enervation is 4 x 12 x 1800, or 86,400. The Daze is 3 x 5 x 1800, or 27,000. We multiply the lesser by 75%, giving us 20,250. Add the two, 106,650. Next, for a charged item, we multiply it by (5/daily charges). At 5/day, that's 5/5, or 1. Then, because it is slotless, we double it, to 213,300.

That's much less than 350m, but it's still a lot.

[Rainshine]

Not that it matters in this case, but for clarity...

Next, for a charged item, we multiply it by (5/daily charges). At 5/day, that's 5/5, or 1.

You divide the cost by (5/charges per day). If you multiplied by that number, you'd get higher costs for less charges/day. Since you're going with 5/day anyways, the number is one as you observed, identity property and all that :)

[Red Fel]

Not that it matters in this case, but for clarity...


You divide the cost by (5/charges per day). If you multiplied by that number, you'd get higher costs for less charges/day. Since you're going with 5/day anyways, the number is one as you observed, identity property and all that :)

Sorry, yes, divide. If this had been more than 5 charges, my math would have been very different. Thanks for the catch!

[Crazysaneman]

Here we go. According to this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values), when estimating the value of a magic item in PF, take the most expensive ability it has. If there are similar abilities (or added effects, I suppose), add 75% of the cost of the next most expensive, and then 1/2 of the cost of all additional abilities. If there are non-similar abilities, add their full costs together. Since the abilities of this bag all tend to be spell-effects, I'd call them similar.

There's a table to the right; let's run down it. First, looking at what the item does:

It creates the image of a dragon. Unless this image actually does something, such as requiring enemies to disbelieve it, I'd call that a thematic ability and throw it on for free.
It casts what the DM has fiated as a third-level spell. Okay, a third-level spell, that's spell level x caster level x 2,000, or 6,000 x CL.
It casts Enervation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enervation) with some big bonuses. First off, Enervation deals 1d4 negative levels, not 1d4+2. Second, it's a single-target ray spell, not designed to hit multiple targets in a radius. Third off, it's a 4th-level spell. Even assuming that you were counting the Enervation effect as a 4th-level spell - and I'd bump it up more - that's 4 x CL x 2,000, or 8,000 x CL. So far, this is your costliest component.
It can be used once per round. If we call that command use, it's total cost x 1,800. It's worth noting, however, that the illustration of a command-activated item is the Cape of the Mountebank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cape-of-the-mountebank), which can only be command-activated once per day. So I'd say instead that it's an unlimited use item, despite its 1/round limitations, which is cost x 2,000.
Lastly, as a bag, it is a slotless item, which means that it has "No space limitation." Double its cost.


So, let's not even assume a caster level for those abilities. The most expensive ability is the Enervation, so that goes for a full 8,000 x CL. Then we add the Daze, which costs only 75%, which is 4,500 x CL. Add them together, that's 12,500 x CL. I'll give you the dragon image or free, because I'm nice that way. Next, we multiply the entire thing by 2,000 for unlimited use. So far we're up to 25,000,000 x CL. Now we double it, because it's slotless. That's a 50,000,000 x CL item.

Now, let's look at CL. The earliest that classic Enervation could be cast is Wizard 7. So the lowest CL we could put on that item is 7. That means our cost, assuming I've done the math right, is 350,000,000 gp. If we want to give the dragon image an actual spell, such as Silent Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image), that would increase the cost further. Substantially.

I am aware Enervation does 1d4 levels, hence why it says as enervation with bonus. Second, the enervation only hits the target occupying the square that's targeted, not the aoe. Only the daze does the aoe. Third, it's not command use it's command word. Finally I didn't realize you doubled cost for slotless items (I cant believe I missed this) XD, but i think your math is off. Also your multipliers.
Caster level 12 (min for enervation)
dragon image does nothing, free
3rd level daze (low ability) 3*12*2000 *.75=54000
4th level enervation 4*12*2000=96000
now as far as I know you can't have an item that is both command word and use activated for cost... so none of that x1800 then total x2000 shennannigans
54000+96000=150000
doubled for slotless 150000*2=300000

[Coidzor]

Ok, just to confirm is there a save against suffering the enervation effect or does the target eat the negative levels unless they have a Death Ward or similar defense up exactly like Enervation, only with a pseudo-Empower metamagic effect that's been maximized without Maximizing the enervation effect itself?

If it were the AoE enervation I'd say that would need to be a 5th or 6th level spell in and of itself and then bumped up to at least 7th level with the pseudo-Empower effect. As it is, this is better than slapping an Empower on Enervation since it's a guaranteed +2 negative levels but worse than Maximize. So I'd say... 4th level spell metamagicked up to a 6th level spell.

[P.F.]

Swords are weapons, which are their own category. Other magic items are either worn or slotless. This page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items) lists the slots of the body.

A bag does not belong in one of those slots, unless the PC in question is particularly unsightly or has a bizarre fondness for potato sack races or sack puppets.

Here is an example of a slotless item - the Traveler's Any-Tool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/traveler-s-any-tool).

Everything gets its own category, wands, potions, weapons, even armor, which is worn, gets its own category separate from armor components like bracers and helmets. The table, however, while listing examples from all of these categories, ignores them except for the pertinent effects, bonus type, spell trigger / spell completion / command word, etc. Thus, by the table as listed, a "wondrous item" which works exactly like a potion could be created for a 9th level spell, and the formula would be the same as that for a potion.

One could hardly choose a worse item for comparison ... a 250gp item which duplicates the effects of a 5th level spell an unlimited number of times per day ... although a good reminder that magic item costs are highly subjective and the the gold piece values tables are indeed guidelines and not rules. Here's one that follows those guidelines a little more comprehensibly: the lantern of revealing, which is the "example" for a use-activated or continuous item.

Cost = spell level * caster level * 2000
30,000 = 3 * 5 * 2000

Note that it ignores the double cost for slotless items. More problematic for me, it ignores also the *2 multiplier for duplicating a spell with a minute/level duration. I can only assume this was done to throw a bone to parties harassed by invisible foes.

Or take the Horn of Goodness/Evil:
Cost = spell level * caster level *1800 * uses/day/5
6500 = 3 * 6 * 1800 * 1/5

Well, 6480, is close enough I expect, although why it's considered command word not use-activated is beyond me. Notice again "Slot: none," no cost doubling. In fact, most items end up coming in below the estimated cost in the table, often well below.

The only example given of a "slotless" item which costs double is an ioun stone, many of which duplicate the effects of certain other worn items, but by flying about the head instead of taking up the usual slot. Thus, instead of wearing a cloak of charisma, one could have the ioun stone of charisma and wear a cloak of elvenkind.

Basically, compare the bag to other magic items, in this case my calculations, by the guidelines listed, give it a value somewhat higher than that of a +7 magic weapon. Is that too high for a character at-level with the cost?

I would also suggest calibrating the value by comparing it to an intelligent sword that has the same power. Of course, intelligent items are a whole other ball o' wax, and you aren't going to get a 1:1 comparison. Still, might be useful to understand what an intelligent item with those powers would cost, and what a 100K gp intelligent item could do.