ignore please

[INoKnowNames]

So, I'm trying to build a character for an upcoming game. I have a habit of working extra hard on the mechanics, both for the sake of optimization (because having characters weaker than the party or likely to die in 1 hit can be a drain when it's time to play) and roleplaying (because I like making most of my characters fit their abilities and seeing/doing things out of my fantasies or favorite fiction).

I've recently hit a bit of a snag, though. For the mechanics I need to go off, this character (a variant Paladin/Bard to make it simple) will need to be Chaotic. I don't need any help with trying to fix him mechanically. I've more of an issue with the fact that up until I realized he worked best Chaotically, I was going to have him be Neutral Good, in part because while he's not the type to force himself to commit to the word of the Law, and in fact has no qualms with shattering the Law over his knee to do the right thing:

-He is to be incredibly loyal to his family and their traditions, fiercely protective of his kin above most everything else in the world. Not sure how Chaotic someone who upholds family values and such is.

-He also joined an organization that, while lenient with people who worked hard enough to join the higher ranks, also worked hand in hand with the Law, defeating criminals and protecting the innocent. Most of the time Chaotic Adventurers just end up beating Evil guys and trying to explain themselves to the Law for doing so, if not being actually responsible for what happened (be it on accident or on purpose).

-Lastly, I imagine him being the type to fully commit to someone, for better or for worse, be unlikely to lie and always remember and respect a promise. These may be values that a Chaotic Person may champion, but at the same time I feel like that sounds more Lawful than anything else.

I figured that a Neutral adventurer could skirt both worlds, doing what matters most to him (for better or worse), which is why I first planned to have him to be neutral on that axis. Now I wonder if it sounds too odd if he is Chaotic instead, or if I should find some way to get around that alignment restriction for the sake of making sure the mechanics match the desired roleplay. Any input?

Long since solved. Thank you, come again.

[Grek]

Law and Chaos don't actually mean anything. It's Team Robot vs. Team Frog. So just write "Chaotic Good" on your character sheet and do whatever you like.

[TheCorsairMalac]

You've definitely got quite the conundrum there. XD

He has some stable points, but that doesn't mean the rest of him isn't chaotic. Maybe he's a wanderer, a whimsical man always changing professions, and a gambling addict as well. What if he joined this lawful organization on a whim, or as a bet?

Surely a character can do a lawful thing, but with chaotic intent.

[INoKnowNames]

Law and Chaos don't actually mean anything. It's Team Robot vs. Team Frog. So just write "Chaotic Good" on your character sheet and do whatever you like.

From core alone, Devils and Demons would both have a word with you about the difference between Law and Chaos.

More seriously, if I have class features or feats that require a Chaotic Alignment, and I stop being Chaotic, depending on the DM one could potentially lose them. Which would suck.


You've definitely got quite the conundrum there. XD

He has some stable points, but that doesn't mean the rest of him isn't chaotic. Maybe he's a wanderer, a whimsical man always changing professions, and a gambling addict as well. What if he joined this lawful organization on a whim, or as a bet?

Surely a character can do a lawful thing, but with chaotic intent.

A wanderer, maybe, though I always imagined him being able to settle down at the end of his adventures. I also don't see someone who's basically a cop changing jobs too much. What better job is there for what could otherwise be a murder hobo than chasing down other murder hobos?

And he actually joined the organization to help him gain revenge against a villain who wrong him, using the resources of the organization to help chase him down. He's rather the heroic type as well, though, so having to help clean up crime isn't exactly a down to the line of work, either.

[The Viscount]

If you have a crunch requirement for chaotic alignment but don't want to actually be chaotic, the Ordered Chaos feat is what you want. Its text is a bit vague, but it gives qualifying for a feat as an example, but I see no reason why you can't use it for a class as well.

[thematgreen]

Chaotic, yet follows the law?

Adventurer: I follow the law because it's inconvienent to be in jail and when I turn in criminals I get money and recognition, which is awesome.

[Nightraiderx]

easy, you don't do everything by the book. You find loopholes and ambiguity in the law to achieve your desired effect.
You can play him off as the quirky detective that monologues his adventures as an old cheesy 1950's detective movie.

[thematgreen]

easy, you don't do everything by the book. You find loopholes and ambiguity in the law to achieve your desired effect.
You can play him off as the quirky detective that monologues his adventures as an old cheesy 1950's detective movie.

Have you seen Lethal Weapon? Be Riggs, He's a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules to bring criminals to justice.

[Red Fel]

I was going to have him be Neutral Good, in part because while he's not the type to force himself to commit to the word of the Law, and in fact has no qualms with shattering the Law over his knee to do the right thing:

This is a great starting position. Neutral Good, to me, means Good first, without regard for whether that Good respects tradition or personal freedom or anything else on the L-C spectrum. Which means you can oscillate a bit as needed. Now, let's dive into your bullet points.


-He is to be incredibly loyal to his family and their traditions, fiercely protective of his kin above most everything else in the world. Not sure how Chaotic someone who upholds family values and such is.

Nothing inherently non-Chaotic about being close to friends and family. Now, let's be clear what that means. A Chaotic person can be loyal to his friends and family. He can respect that they have traditions, even if he isn't personally fond of the idea. He can respect their values, even if he doesn't share them, because as a Good person, he also has values - just not in the "obedience, honor and tradition" sense.


-He also joined an organization that, while lenient with people who worked hard enough to join the higher ranks, also worked hand in hand with the Law, defeating criminals and protecting the innocent. Most of the time Chaotic Adventurers just end up beating Evil guys and trying to explain themselves to the Law for doing so, if not being actually responsible for what happened (be it on accident or on purpose).

Working with the Law doesn't make you non-Chaotic. He could still branch off on his own at any time, right? Think of it as a partnership of convenience - yes, he's working with the Law, but only because it allows him to do what he wants with less consequence. It's like an Evil character adventuring with a Good party - when you just kill people, you're a horrible murderer, but when you do it with a party of adventurers, you're a hero. Same thing here.


-Lastly, I imagine him being the type to fully commit to someone, for better or for worse, be unlikely to lie and always remember and respect a promise. These may be values that a Chaotic Person may champion, but at the same time I feel like that sounds more Lawful than anything else.

This... does sound more Lawful. Chaotic characters don't have to be whimsical and changeable, but they are free spirits. A Chaotic character can honor his promises, of course; but the key thing is that he refuses to be bound if it would impede his other values, such as freedom or Good. In this case, he could make and keep promises if they were in line with his aims. For instance, if he was pursuing somebody who had royally cheesed him off, and found somebody else who likewise wanted vengeance, he could promise to get revenge for that person - since it was something he was going to do anyway.

The tricky part is to remember that he will refuse to be bound if it infringes on his freedom and goals. So, if he decided that it was more important to redeem than to kill a villain, he would probably break a promise to kill the villain. He might feel guilty about it, but he'd do it, because what he personally sees as the right thing to do is more important than what he once swore.

With regard to committing to a person, that's easy. That's what parties are. If Chaotic characters can't be loyal to anybody, they couldn't be in parties with all the constant backstabbing and betrayal. Committing to friends and allies is natural.

In short, I think that a Chaotic character can Be loyal and committed to friends and family Keep promises that don't interfere with his aims Work with people of other alignments when it forwards his aimsI don't think there's a problem with being Chaotic while doing that.

If you're concerned that he's not Chaotic enough, I think Neutral Good is fine. I don't see anything here that drives him squarely into Lawful territory. But frankly, L-C is a bit murkier in places than G-E, given that D&D has provided us with the concept of absolute morality on the latter spectrum; you can probably say CG and get away with it.

[INoKnowNames]

If you have a crunch requirement for chaotic alignment but don't want to actually be chaotic, the Ordered Chaos feat is what you want. Its text is a bit vague, but it gives qualifying for a feat as an example, but I see no reason why you can't use it for a class as well.

That... is indeed exactly what I need. Pur-fect!

I think the silliest thing, though, is that I apparently asked this same question 2 years ago, and received the same feat back as an option. History repeats itself, apparently.


Chaotic, yet follows the law?

Adventurer: I follow the law because it's inconvienent to be in jail and when I turn in criminals I get money and recognition, which is awesome.


easy, you don't do everything by the book. You find loopholes and ambiguity in the law to achieve your desired effect.
You can play him off as the quirky detective that monologues his adventures as an old cheesy 1950's detective movie.


Have you seen Lethal Weapon? Be Riggs, He's a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules to bring criminals to justice.

Heh. Didn't the comic itself reference that, too? In any case, certainly good things to keep in mind for the sake of roleplay. Edit: As is Red Fel's insightful post. Certainly something worth chewing on.

[Spore]

You shouldn't overcomplicate and stretch such a poorly written thing as ingame morals.

Law: You bend the situation to suit your words and vows.

Chaos: Your vows and words get bent by the situation.

[Manly Man]

To add to all of this, being lawful (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NLbk7actvks/S9bl6eyBp-I/AAAAAAAAAaQ/06gBwq33DjI/s1600/Mind+Flayer.jpg) doesn't make you sane (http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/beholder-01.jpg).

[Ermac]

The Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana has to be Chaotic Good, and it is very similar to the standard Paladin.

[INoKnowNames]

The Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana has to be Chaotic Good, and it is very similar to the standard Paladin.

Had you been about a week more late, this would have constituted as Thread Necromancy. In any case, the Paladin of Freedom doesn't actually suit the character in question due to a set of vows that will be taken by the character, and the thread was more or less already answered...