3.PF House Rules: Simultaneity and Sneak Attacks

[Incanur]

Hi folks! I'm looking for feedback on some rules changes I play to implement in an ongoing once-a-year Forgotten Realms campaign. I'm not looking for perfect balance or ease of use, as these rules as just for me. Simultaneity of course requires tons of adjudication and I'm fine with that.

Context: I run a session or two for my old group each year during the holidays when we're all back in town. We've been playing 3.5 more or less RAW up until last year, when I decided to at least partially switch over to Pathfinder rules. The Realms continue to reverberate from the transformative adventures of epic-level PCs from earlier campaigns, so it's an ideal time to change the rules. Specifically, a dual-wielding rogue with a swordsage dip from the old campaign recently took Ao's place as Overgod.

Current PCs: We've got a dual-wielding Daring Outlaw, a sword-&-board cleric, a factotum, a telepath, a Swift Hunter, and paladin/wizard. Everybody's level 7.

House Rules

Simultaneity: This is the big one. I've never been a big fan of 3.x D&D, but the initiative system particularly annoys me. This year I plan to give simultaneity a go. Default 3.x timing rules produce all manner of wonky results. I'll do my best to model everything happening at once instead of a separate 6-second chunks. Most simply, rounds split into two 3-second half rounds. Initiate still matters, but it represents getting a fraction-of-a-second advantage rather allowing a full 6 seconds before an opponent acts. Needless to say, this change has far-reaching implications.

Attacks: Characters now get two attacks per full round: one at +0 and one at -5. Characters with multiple attacks from levels, feats, or whatnot can perform half their attacks in each half-round.

Spells: Character will still only be able to cast one standard-action (or full-round action) spell every full round. I'm assuming standard-action spells require 3 seconds to cast and only take effect right at the end of that time period.

Sneak attacks: Sneak attacks now double on critical hits. Sneak attack base range extended to 60ft. Threat range gets doubled for any target denied Dex or flanked. This doubling is a true doubling that stacks with other doublings. Furthermore, characters can add sneak attack damage to regular critical hits (ones that aren't sneak attacks).

Backstabbing: Stationary flat-footed characters/creatures are now treated as having 0 Dex (-5 AC). Attacks against such targets have their critical ranges tripled with threats automatically confirmed. This is a true tripling that stacks with other effects that extend critical range (but replaces the basic threat-range doubling for flat-footed creatures).

Defense: Character now get +1 dodge bonus for having +1 BAB, then an additional +1 dodge for each 3 points of BAB above +1. So +2 at +4, +3 at +7, +4 at +10, +5 at +13, +6 at +16, and +7 at +19.

Implications

Simultaneity alters the basic dynamics of 3.x combat. For example, charging becomes much more complicated when your target can run way, ready an attack, or whatnot. Standard-action spells become much more prone to interruption by attacks even if the caster wins initiative. Buffs no longer effect the full round of character later in initiative order. Etc.

I'm particularly about what this combination of simultaneity and buffed sneak attack do to/for the rogue. Does this make rogues better? Worse?

[Coidzor]

House Rules

Simultaneity: This is the big one. I've never been a big fan of 3.x D&D, but the initiative system particularly annoys me. This year I plan to give simultaneity a go. Default 3.x timing rules produce all manner of wonky results. I'll do my best to model everything happening at once instead of a separate 6-second chunks. Most simply, rounds split into two 3-second half rounds. Initiate still matters, but it represents getting a fraction-of-a-second advantage rather allowing a full 6 seconds before an opponent acts. Needless to say, this change has far-reaching implications.

Could you elaborate on this a bit further or link to what you're using as far as a baseline for simultaneity if you're referencing something? Or is it just the division of rounds into half-rounds?


Attacks: Characters now get two attacks per full round: one at +0 and one at -5. Characters with multiple attacks from levels, feats, or whatnot can perform half their attacks in each half-round.

So there's no difference between characters with differing BAB aside from the value of their total attack bonus then? What about odd-numbered natural weapons, like a claw-claw-bite routine? One claw in the first-half and then the other claw + bite in the second?


Spells: Character will still only be able to cast one standard-action (or full-round action) spell every full round. I'm assuming standard-action spells require 3 seconds to cast and only take effect right at the end of that time period.

So they cast the spell during the first half of the round and it goes into effect during the second half? Or they start casting in the first half of the round and then finish casting upon their turn in the second half of the round, making a high initiative important for them to get their spell to have any effect that round but also increasing their vulnerability to being disrupted while casting to some extent.


Sneak attacks: Sneak attacks now double on critical hits. Sneak attack base range extended to 60ft. Threat range gets doubled for any target denied Dex or flanked. This doubling is a true doubling that stacks with other doublings. Furthermore, characters can add sneak attack damage to regular critical hits (ones that aren't sneak attacks).

So a Rogue with a dagger has a 19-20/x2 crit normally but when they're flanking or have their target denied Dex, it'd double to 17-20/x2 and if they had a keen dagger or improved critical so that their crit-range with a dagger was already 17-20/x2 it'd be increased to 13-20/x2?

That's potentially quite potent, since that'd make any sneak attack that hit also a critical hit, or at least the vast majority of sneak attacks would also be critical hits.

I suppose some forms of ranged sneak attack may not be basically gimmes as far as critting goes?


Backstabbing: Stationary flat-footed characters/creatures are now treated as having 0 Dex (-5 AC). Attacks against such targets have their critical ranges tripled with threats automatically confirmed. This is a true tripling that stacks with other effects that extend critical range (but replaces the basic threat-range doubling for flat-footed creatures).

Surprise Rounds and the first turn of combat just got even deadlier then, I think, and there's going to be a lot more crits now at the beginning of combat. A Keen Scimitar or Falchion would have its 15-20(6) crit range extended to 3-20(18), which is basically an auto-threat anyway against anything that's not a gimme kill, and a normal scimitar or kukri or what have you would go from 18-20(3) to 12-20(9), which is still basically in "if it hits, it crits" territory without an auto-confirmation.

I can definitely see some potential investment in getting a Keen equivalent on any Talenta Sharrashes or Minotaur Greathammers or Scythes on a high-initiative melee type even without precision damage.


Defense: Character now get +1 dodge bonus for having +1 BAB, then an additional +1 dodge for each 3 points of BAB above +1. So +2 at +4, +3 at +7, +4 at +10, +5 at +13, +6 at +16, and +7 at +19.

Seems reasonable enough. Does the Dodge feat double this or just still give the flat +1 on top of this BAB-derived dodge bonus?


Implications

Simultaneity alters the basic dynamics of 3.x combat. For example, charging becomes much more complicated when your target can run way, ready an attack, or whatnot. Standard-action spells become much more prone to interruption by attacks even if the caster wins initiative. Buffs no longer effect the full round of character later in initiative order. Etc.

I'm particularly about what this combination of simultaneity and buffed sneak attack do to/for the rogue. Does this make rogues better? Worse?

Sorry, what was that about buffs? :smallconfused:

Rogues are definitely going to like surprise rounds and going sooner in initiative more than they did. The half-rounds thing seems like it might be a double-edged sword for them, though.

[Elricaltovilla]

Uhhh, not to burst your bubble on the house rules, but a round is six seconds, a turn is the actions you take within those six seconds. D&D (and Pathfinder) assume all actions taking place within a round happen within those six seconds, with each action occurring in order of initiative. Initiative already measures a fraction of a second advantage.

If each turn lasted six seconds all those buffs people use would run out way too quickly to be useful. You could burn through a haste spell before you even get to act.

[Deadline]

Furthermore, characters can add sneak attack damage to regular critical hits (ones that aren't sneak attacks).

This is a feat in the PHB2 called Telling Blow.

It basically looks like you made Sneak Attack a necessary feature if you want to do melee combat (you've made it way more damaging, and made it so that almost every attack that hits is going to also crit). The Defense item basically means that anyone who doesn't have full BAB isn't going to be hitting anything in combat (so it punishes 3/4 and 1/2 BAB), unless that rule only applies to PCs and not NPC's and monsters. I'm not sure much else changes, aside from the "Simultaneity" being a huge pain in the backside to actually use. It looks awfully clunky.

It mostly looks like you felt rogues didn't do enough damage, and effectively doubled the amount of damage they can deal to try and compensate. Was that your intention?

[Coidzor]

Ah, actually, what are you doing about AoOs and Combat Reflexes? Are those per half-round now to keep up with the split-round you're doing or as part of your focus on increasing mobility does that mean that a side or both sides can blow their Attack of Opportunities in the first half-round and then characters can basically move freely in the second half-round?

Also, what about TWF? Is that going to max out at 1 off-hand attack on the first-half and the second-half? Two off-hand attacks in each half-round?


Uhhh, not to burst your bubble on the house rules, but a round is six seconds, a turn is the actions you take within those six seconds. D&D (and Pathfinder) assume all actions taking place within a round happen within those six seconds, with each action occurring in order of initiative. Initiative already measures a fraction of a second advantage.

If each turn lasted six seconds all those buffs people use would run out way too quickly to be useful. You could burn through a haste spell before you even get to act.

Hm? He's split rounds in half so that everyone has a turn in the first three seconds and then everyone has a turn again in the last 3 seconds but otherwise keeps the round as 6 seconds for the effects of buffs. This actually effectively doubles the number of turns that one has buffs up for, potentially increasing their effectiveness.

Especially given that it makes it so that everyone has 4 iteratives, 2 at BAB and 2 at BAB-5, which is a lot better than having a -10 and -15 iterative attack that probably won't connect, even if it is a bit harder to make sure you're connecting with 'em due to an eye towards increasing mobility.

[Incanur]

Could you elaborate on this a bit further or link to what you're using as far as a baseline for simultaneity if you're referencing something? Or is it just the division of rounds into half-rounds?

The assuming that everything's happen at once has profound implications for 3.x combat. It's complex and will involve lots of judgement calls at the table - which I'm fine with. I should mention that I've run numerous free-form sessions with this group and they've all gone swimmingly. As an example of what simultaneity does, it'll make interrupting spellcasting much easier. I'm assuming the act of shoot a loaded and ready crossbow takes less time than casting a standard-action (3-second) spell, so a caster could potentially win initiative and still get shot while casting during the first half round. A barbarian could win initiative to charge a foe 30ft away to find the foe charging at them too or setting a spear against the charge - or simply running away at full speed! Etc.


So there's no difference between characters with differing BAB aside from the value of their total attack bonus then? What about odd-numbered natural weapons, like a claw-claw-bite routine? One claw in the first-half and then the other claw + bite in the second?

Let me clarify this point since I explained it poorly above. BAB still grants additional attacks as normal. Basically everyone just gets an extra attack at -5 each full round. A 6th-level fighter would attack at +6/1/1. The character could make one attack in first half round, one attack in the second, and one at either the end of the first or start of the second.


So they cast the spell during the first half of the round and it goes into effect during the second half?

Standard-action spells will take effect at the very end of the first half round.


So a Rogue with a dagger has a 19-20/x2 crit normally but when they're flanking or have their target denied Dex, it'd double to 17-20/x2 and if they had a keen dagger or improved critical so that their crit-range with a dagger was already 17-20/x2 it'd be increased to 13-20/x2?

Exactly. And if they manage to catch the target completely off-guard (i.e. backstab) the threat range of keen dagger would be 9-20.


That's potentially quite potent, since that'd make any sneak attack that hit also a critical hit, or at least the vast majority of sneak attacks would also be critical hits.

With keen weapons and/or Improved Critical, pretty much.


Seems reasonable enough. Does the Dodge feat double this or just still give the flat +1 on top of this BAB-derived dodge bonus?

Just the flat +1.


Sorry, what was that about buffs? :smallconfused:

Let me give an example. Under normal rules, if the party wizard wins initiative, they can take a standard action (3 seconds) to cast haste. Then the fighter can go and make a full attack with an extra attack (6 seconds), all before their foes get to do anything at all. Simultaneity changes this.


It basically looks like you made Sneak Attack a necessary feature if you want to do melee combat (you've made it way more damaging, and made it so that almost every attack that hits is going to also crit). The Defense item basically means that anyone who doesn't have full BAB isn't going to be hitting anything in combat (so it punishes 3/4 and 1/2 BAB), unless that rule only applies to PCs and not NPC's and monsters. I'm not sure much else changes, aside from the "Simultaneity" being a huge pain in the backside to actually use. It looks awfully clunky.

It mostly looks like you felt rogues didn't do enough damage, and effectively doubled the amount of damage they can deal to try and compensate. Was that your intention?

I'm definitely trying to boost sneak attack, particularly because of how appropriate in-game this is given how a sneak-attack happy rogue/swordsage recently became Overgod. Reality now warps in favor of sneak attacks. :smallamused: But I think you may be overestimating the buff to sneak attack. Various things still prevent it. With simultaneity, the window to attack someone with their guard down is very small.


Ah, actually, what are you doing about AoOs and Combat Reflexes? Are those per half-round now to keep up with the split-round you're doing or as part of your focus on increasing mobility does that mean that a side or both sides can blow their Attack of Opportunities in the first half-round and then characters can basically move freely in the second half-round?

That's a good question. I need to think a little more about that. For the moment I'm going to try to keep that as close to the old standard as possible while still considering simultaneity. I also should note that I plan to make withdrawing easier.


Also, what about TWF? Is that going to max out at 1 off-hand attack on the first-half and the second-half? Two off-hand attacks in each half-round?

It's going to be the same as always overall, the only difference is the extra attack at -5 everyone gets each full round (6 seconds). I decided to do that second attack so that martial characters under BAB +6 would have something worthwhile to do the second half round. I should mention that characters will get a 5ft step each round and that ranged weapons will not get the extra attack at -5.

[Renen]

Let me give an example. Under normal rules, if the party wizard wins initiative, they can take a standard action (3 seconds) to cast haste. Then the fighter can go and make a full attack with an extra attack (6 seconds), all before their foes get to do anything at all. Simultaneity changes this.


Well your system DOES change that. But here's how current system does it: Those listed actions of yours dont take time within 9 seconds or anything. It just so happens that wizard's spell goes off half a second before other things happen, and fighter's attack can be explained in a number of ways. If opponent dies, then he managed to land the killing blow before the enemy hit him. If opponent lives, then you can consider them both to have been hacking at each other for the round.
But all actions of a fight happen in the 6 second round. Each character's actions arent separate 6 seconds, while the others stand there frozen in time.

[Incanur]

But all actions of a fight happen in the 6 second round. Each character's actions arent separate 6 seconds, while the others stand there frozen in time.

I'm aware of this interpretative logic and it's part of the motivation behind the change to simultaneity. I'm consistently annoyed by the difficulty of reconciling initiative-order with flowing time. In my experience it becomes increasingly difficult for encounters to make sense outside of the framework of initiative order as the PCs advance and gain more abilities. Ye old commoner railgun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137621-Debunking-the-Commoner-Railgun) is an extreme example of what I'm talking about. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Oh, in that case I think you may have created a situation where casters may sometimes want to actually lose initiative just so their spells can't be disrupted. :smallconfused:

So how long are people flat-footed for during surprise rounds and the first round of combat then with simultaneity?

[Incanur]

Oh, in that case I think you may have created a situation where casters may sometimes want to actually lose initiative just so their spells can't be disrupted. :smallconfused:

That doesn't work with simultaneity. If you're getting attacked during the same 3-second period you're casting, it's going to force a concentration check if you get hit. I should add that I'm going to have all the PCs note and declare their actions at the start of each half round based on available information - with the possibility of changing course depending the on the circumstance. In flowing time, delaying is never free.


So how long are people flat-footed for during surprise rounds and the first round of combat then with simultaneity?

Not long, perhaps a second or so. And surprise only counts before the opposing side become aware. So you snuck up behind somebody and started casting a standard-action spell with verbal components, they'd potentially get to act before the spell finished. On the other hand, if you shot with a ranged weapon or cast a silent spell, it'd function more like a default 3.x surprise round in that action would begin the regular round.

Yeah, simultaneity is going to make things different. I'm looking forward to see what happens at the table.