Geas/Quest, un-ignorable o_O? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 10:27 PM

A person in my group told me that there's a compulsion tag and the mind-affecting tag on geas/quest. Does this mean if you place a geas on a creature, they are forced to do whatever you say, with no saving throw or any way to resist it? o_O

DMG quote

A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works.

d20srd quote

it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

Lesser Geas quote

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

He made some very persuasive arguments. Is it true? o_o

MilesTiden

2014-12-21, 10:39 PM

Casting Time: 10 minutes

It also has three extremely common descriptors to be immune to. So, for it to be effective, you have to have a helpless, non mind-affecting immune creature that speaks your language, cannot subvert your request, and a few other things. Sure, if you're in that specific situation, it's good, but the casting time really kills it. You also have to be really good at wording your request, otherwise they can get around it.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 10:48 PM

Jack_Simth

2014-12-21, 10:49 PM

It also has three extremely common descriptors to be immune to. So, for it to be effective, you have to have a helpless, non mind-affecting immune creature that speaks your language, cannot subvert your request, and a few other things. Sure, if you're in that specific situation, it's good, but the casting time really kills it. You also have to be really good at wording your request, otherwise they can get around it.

It's also a 6th level Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Bard spell, duplicatable by both Limited Wish, and Miracle as a standard action. Oh yes, and Limited Wish / Miracle do not explicitly duplicate spell schools or descriptors, yet have their own school/subschool/descriptor line.

I've been charming my planar bound creatures. This guy is taking it one step further.

He claims a geas-ed or lesser geas-ed planar bound can't refuse your orders!!! So a wizard with 8 charsima can just cast one of these two spells (lesser geas on lesser planar binding, geas on planar binding or greater planar binding or gated creature) and bypass anything related to charisma.

Planar bound outsiders aren't mind-affecting immune, and are powerless to harm you. They can subvert your request, but if the request is be your slave for one day per caster level, there's little recourse D:

Anyone have anything they can use to counter this in short of loading every enemy spellcaster with limited wish and has 2 higher caster level than you?
Sure.

Assuming you're the DM?

Talk to the player: "This is much too optimized for my gaming table. Cut it out."
Interesting interpretation of related rules: "I'm sorry, any effect starting to cross the circle (Dominate, Enervation, Charm, Geas, whatever) interrupts the diagram and breaks the circle, releasing the beast to do whatever to you during that ten minute casting time of yours."
Rule 0: "No. It does not work that way."

Basically, in Charming your own planar bound creatures, you opened a door you probably didn't want to open.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 11:01 PM

I'm not the DM, i'm a player.
My DM allows a lot fo stuff. He allows free planar bound creatures as long as you don't over do it. 2 is pushing it, 3 he'll start bringing in celestials.
I built my character around charming planar bound creatures. My advantage was I can bind creatures without down-time, but now this generalist wizard will overshadow me in every way Q_Q.

Ah well, I'll just roll a generalist wizard too next time...

But seriously, geas/quest is unignorable for sure?

MilesTiden

2014-12-21, 11:02 PM

It's also a 6th level Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Bard spell, duplicatable by both Limited Wish, and Miracle as a standard action. Oh yes, and Limited Wish / Miracle do not explicitly duplicate spell schools or descriptors, yet have their own school/subschool/descriptor line.

Well yeah, when you get into other shenanigans, it can be powerful, but you're either bleeding XP and a higher level slot each time (Limited Wish), or using a much higher level slot and are already a 17th level full caster so nothing really matters anymore. The spell as it is is not useless, and can be quite effective in many circumstances, it just has drawbacks to accompany them. The only way I would consider it OP or anything would be Dragonfire Adept's Baleful Geas, but that relies on questionable rules interpretations and rolls back around to 'situational to outright meh' if it isn't ruled to be usable as a standard action. (If you're using shenanigans to get Geas as a SU ability or the like, than again, that's not a problem with Geas. :smalltongue:)

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-21, 11:07 PM

The catch is that you must give the order the creature is compelled to follow at the time of casting and if that order is "serve me," or some other open-ended task then it's limited to 1 day/CL.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 11:11 PM

The catch is that you must give the order the creature is compelled to follow at the time of casting and if that order is "serve me," or some other open-ended task then it's limited to 1 day/CL.

So the guy is doing this:
1. Planar bind an outsider
2. Geas it to serve you forever (which is limited to 1day/CL)
3. Break the circle (bypassing planar binding stuff, so the guy doesn't return after 1day/caster level. He can return whenever he want, but the geas makes him stay.)
4. Last day, order it to stand still and he renews the geas.

Standard dominate monster stuff, except dominate monster was a level 9 spell. D:<

So Kelb, even you don't disagree that this method gets you free planar bound creatures? D:

Jack_Simth

2014-12-21, 11:13 PM

The catch is that you must give the order the creature is compelled to follow at the time of casting and if that order is "serve me," or some other open-ended task then it's limited to 1 day/CL.Given that it's possible to re-cast, that's not much of a catch.
But seriously, geas/quest is unignorable for sure?For sure? No. It's sufficiently ambiguous that a DM could potentially rule it either way. But that's a question to pose to your DM, not random people on the Internet.
Well yeah, when you get into other shenanigans, it can be powerful, but you're either bleeding XP and a higher level slot each time (Limited Wish), or using a much higher level slot and are already a 17th level full caster so nothing really matters anymore. The spell as it is is not useless, and can be quite effective in many circumstances, it just has drawbacks to accompany them. The only way I would consider it OP or anything would be Dragonfire Adept's Baleful Geas, but that relies on questionable rules interpretations and rolls back around to 'situational to outright meh' if it isn't ruled to be usable as a standard action. (If you're using shenanigans to get Geas as a SU ability or the like, than again, that's not a problem with Geas. :smalltongue:)The point of Limited Wish is reducing it to a standard action that you can do in combat. It becomes a no-save just lose spell on any living creature without meaningful SR (and you can make most SR non-meaningful). At 13th level (the minimum for self-cast Limited Wishes without other shenanigans), you're spending 300 xp to flat-out end an encounter of almost any CR. A CR 13 opponent vs. a party of 4 grants 975 xp to each member of the party, so while you'll start to fall behind, you're still gaining. If you do this enough to be down a level relative to the party, a CR 14 opponent grants a 13th level character in a party of four 1463 xp vs. 1050 for the 14th level characters - in other words, as soon as you're down a level, you're getting more XP each combat than you're spending, and will catch up. This will not result in you being more than one level behind the party.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 11:16 PM

For sure? No. It's sufficiently ambiguous that a DM could potentially rule it either way. But that's a question to pose to your DM, not random people on the Internet.

I thought this forum was the super heavy RAW lawyer optimization forum. o_o

What part of it is ambiguous? :D
Do quote!

Necroticplague

2014-12-21, 11:19 PM

Vhaidara

2014-12-21, 11:23 PM

I thought this forum was the super heavy RAW lawyer optimization forum. o_o

No, that is a small minority. Most of us go with what is fun, somewhat balanced, and awesome.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-21, 11:25 PM

Yes, it is unignorable.It also takes forever to cast, is ridiculously easy to become immune to, and has plenty of room for loophole abuse. They may have to do what you say, but there's nothing saying that intent comes into the matter: its entirely possible to work around a quest with sufficient mental acrobatics. Of course, if he's making use of this and its overshadowing you, patience is the answer. At higher levels, pretty much every outsider starts having either a constant mind blank or protection from [alignment], which shuts this down.

Lets look at pit fiends. The pit fiend could cast magic circle against good on himself when the wizard attempts to geas it. The pit fiend is protected but the geas is in place. Then he spams greater dispel magic to get rid of the magic circle. Voila, pit fiend slave D:

Same with planetars. Ghaeles have undispellable auras, but not planetars.

In that sense, patience will be the end of me because my charm monster stuff is blocked by protection from alignment, so I've been only using mariliths at high levels.

Alright, anyways, thanks everyone. I'm a go plan a new character revolving around geas instead of charm then. I'm a give the other player a pat on the shoulder and admit defeat. T_T. He's the better moocher/extorter/criminal.

Psyren

2014-12-21, 11:31 PM

It's also a 6th level Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Bard spell, duplicatable by both Limited Wish, and Miracle as a standard action. Oh yes, and Limited Wish / Miracle do not explicitly duplicate spell schools or descriptors, yet have their own school/subschool/descriptor line.

I'll give you the standard action, but that second part is shaky. If you're "duplicating" a spell, I'd say you're duplicating the metadata (school and descriptors) that are part of that spell too. Otherwise you get into weird territory like Charm Monster on a skeleton, teleporting out of a dimensional lock, shout that can penetrate silence, conjuring creatures inside other creatures etc. All of those, on top of being absurd, would also be (much) more powerful than the spell you're duplicating, to the point where the DM could rule it falls outside of the acceptable level range for the duplicated spell too.

Troacctid

2014-12-21, 11:41 PM

I thought this forum was the super heavy RAW lawyer optimization forum. o_o

What part of it is ambiguous? :D
Do quote!

Unlike dominate, you don't have direct mental command over the subject; they're given the freedom to interpret the command you give them. This means a creative victim can outsmart you if you leave a loophole. Also, the spell doesn't grant ongoing control over their actions--it lets you make a single command at the time of casting. So you need to make it count.

The text of the spell isn't especially ambiguous, but the exact effects require roleplaying, and you as the player don't have complete control over how it shakes out.

torrasque666

2014-12-22, 12:00 AM

Watch as you geas something to protect you and it decides the best way is to plane shift you to a timeless plane and seal you underground. You're perfectly safe, but you can't do jack.

GreenZ

2014-12-22, 01:20 AM

Lets look at pit fiends. The pit fiend could cast magic circle against good on himself when the wizard attempts to geas it. The pit fiend is protected but the geas is in place. Then he spams greater dispel magic to get rid of the magic circle. Voila, pit fiend slave D:

Or, the intelligent Pit Fiend recognizes the spell, places his fingers in his ears or deafens himself in some other manner, and can no longer hear your Geas/Quest command: you have now wasted the spell.

The casting of the spell is so stupidly easy to disrupt. Stick to Charm spells.

Even if you manage to cast the spell, the simple problem/solution to Geas/Quest is that it is, by RAW, able to be rather easily circumvented by the creature placed under it. The spell cannot kill, it cannot force them to co-operate, it can only force them to do a single command.

Anything willing to be placed under Geas/Quest would already be likely willing to aid you while anything not desiring to be under Geas/Quest can simply abuse it with any amount of effort. There are only a handful of cases where this spell is actually effective and most involve voluntary targets.

Most intelligent creatures that you even manage to Geas/Quest can abuse it until it ends: Most long term commands such as 'obey my commands', 'serve me', or such can simply keep from being given further commands for the ~2 weeks needed to end the effect. A man running away at first sight then putting plugs in his ears for 2 weeks is all required to give the caster of Geas/Quest far more grief than simply charming the man. Anything actually worth casting Geas/Quest on has an even better capacity for abusing the spell.

And even then, once the spell ends the creature involved will likely hate your guts for trying to control it in such a way: an easy way to make new enemies.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 02:07 AM

it cannot force them to co-operate

Can you elaborate on the stuff you said? I'm having some trouble understanding it.

The most important scenario in question is an outsider bound in a magic circle, which is why the 10minute casting time is of no importance.

The pit fiend unable to hear your command by gouging out his own ears seems ambiguous, as there's no clarification on whether or not you need to hear the "magical command". On one side the target needs to understand you, on the other hand it's a "magical command", or you say the command in the first standard action of the 10minute casting, so the pit fiend will hear the command before realizing it's a geas. He could block his ears after hearing the first command of becoming your slave, and since he can't hear "unblock your ears", he could stay like this until the duration is up, but on the other side, you could chop his arms off or heal his gouged out ears and start giving commands. Hmm... something to ponder about.

Could you list some more examples of how a bound pit fiend would subvert/dodge the geas when bound in the circle?

Command 1: Be my slave forever (1day/CL)
Command 2: Never, EVER, harm me. This includes locking me away forever to "protect me"
Command 3: Accomplish my commands to the absolute best of your ability
Command 4: Avoid anything that could relinquish you from my command to the best of your ability.
Command 5: If command 3 compromises command 4, don't do it, but still try your absolute best to accomplish command 3.

Charm monster does sound a bit more appealing, as the affected creature won't try to subvert you in every way possible.

I need more specific ways geas can screw you so I can secretly tell it to the DM so he could screw him!

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 02:13 AM

Can you elaborate on the stuff you said? I'm having some trouble understanding it.

The most important scenario in question is an outsider bound in a magic circle, which is why the 10minute casting time is of no importance.

The pit fiend unable to hear your command by gouging out his own ears seems ambiguous, as there's no clarification on whether or not you need to hear the "magical command". On one side the target needs to understand you, on the other hand it's a "magical command", or you say the command in the first standard action of the 10minute casting, so the pit fiend will hear the command before realizing it's a geas. He could block his ears after hearing the first command of becoming your slave, and since he can't hear "unblock your ears", he could stay like this until the duration is up, but on the other side, you could chop his arms off or heal his gouged out ears and start giving commands. Hmm... something to ponder about.

There's nothing ambiguous about it. Geas has the [language dependent] tag. If the target cannot hear or understand the order, the spell fails.

Could you list some more examples of how a bound pit fiend would subvert/dodge the geas when bound in the circle?

Command 1: Be my slave forever (1day/CL)
Command 2: Never, EVER, harm me. This includes locking me away forever to "protect me"
Command 3: Accomplish my commands to the absolute best of your ability
Command 4: Avoid anything that could relinquish you from my command to the best of your ability.
Command 5: If command 3 compromises command 4, don't do it, but still try your absolute best to accomplish command 3.

Charm monster does sound a bit more appealing, as the affected creature won't try to subvert you in every way possible.

I need more specific ways geas can screw you so I can secretly tell it to the DM so he could screw him!

Only command 1 is actually enforced by the magic and it does so based on the -creature's- understanding of the term "slave." The rest of your commands are subject to the creature's interpretation of the first. This can completely invalidate all of the other commands. You don't get to give a series of commands when you cast the spell, just one.

MilesTiden

2014-12-22, 02:21 AM

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Because of this line, the 'say the command on the first standard action' thing doesn't work. Plus, ya know, language-dependent and all.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 02:33 AM

Only command 1 is actually enforced by the magic and it does so based on the -creature's- understanding of the term "slave." The rest of your commands are subject to the creature's interpretation of the first. This can completely invalidate all of the other commands. You don't get to give a series of commands when you cast the spell, just one.

Interesting point!

Casting a slave geas on a planetar might make him believe he is entitled to basic human rights or worker regulations, etc.

Casting a slave geas on a pit fiend is a definite subservient slave seeing how abusively they treat their lesser minions.

What if command 1 was: "Obey all of my instructions to the best of your ability, forever"?

Command 1: "Obey all of my instructions to the best of your ability, forever"
Instruction 1: Never, EVER, harm me. This includes locking me away forever to "protect me"
Instruction 2: Avoid anything that could relinquish you from my command to the best of your ability.
Instruction 3: If Command 1 compromises instruction 3, don't do it, but still try your absolute best to accomplish command 1.

Hmm... lets see if I can find a way to subvert this...

This feels like TO, on par with wish-lawyering. This is good! I can bring this up to the DM too!

SiuiS

2014-12-22, 02:49 AM

Any bound creature with a magic circle effect is immune. Don't all planar bindings of value have a magic circle effect?

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 02:50 AM

Any bound creature with a magic circle effect is immune. Don't all planar bindings of value have a magic circle effect?

1. There is a debate whether or not the bound creature is protected or not.
2. Even if they're protected, they're not immune, so it's a matter of just breaking the circle once the enchantments are in place, provided that the outsider doesn't have dispel magic or break enchantment (doesn't work on geas), or limited wish, or miracle, or wish.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 02:53 AM

Interesting point!

Casting a slave geas on a planetar might make him believe he is entitled to basic human rights or worker regulations, etc.

Casting a slave geas on a pit fiend is a definite subservient slave seeing how abusively they treat their lesser minions.

What if command 1 was: "Obey all of my instructions to the best of your ability, forever"?

Command 1: "Obey all of my instructions to the best of your ability, forever"
Instruction 1: Never, EVER, harm me. This includes locking me away forever to "protect me"
Instruction 2: Avoid anything that could relinquish you from my command to the best of your ability.
Instruction 3: If Command 1 compromises instruction 3, don't do it, but still try your absolute best to accomplish command 1.

Hmm... lets see if I can find a way to subvert this...

This feels like TO, on par with wish-lawyering. This is good! I can bring this up to the DM too!

The very -moment- you dismiss the magic circle, the pit-fiend teleports away so that it can "never, ever harm you."

Really, any thing at all you do that results in it leaving your presence means its opportunity to subvert just went from "good" to "you're freakin' kidding, right?" Without you there to spot-weld any breaches of your intent the creature will still be free to interpret and misinterpret your orders as necessary to make using it as a minion difficult. There's also the fact that "to the best of your ability" doesn't prevent it from being -very- literal in its interpretation of any orders you give it, or as completely non-literal as is necessary to subvert your intent.

Nevermind the fact that when its planar binding contract is up it leaves -the plane- and will likely find itself freed of your influence in fairly short order followed by a revenge plot to make your miserable butt pay for the indignity.

You're trying to squeeze dominate out of a lesser effect again.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 03:00 AM

You're trying to squeeze dominate out of a lesser effect again.

This time it's my friend and I'm trying to negate him :P

Thanks though, I believe you people have given me enough stuff to make me stick to my charm sorcerer, and incredibly annoy my friend.

After the pit fiends teleports away, my friend will add a fourth instruction next time. "Adventure with me for now."

Oh, and there is no planar binding contract. You just call him, enchant him, and break the circle. I've been doing that too so he doesn't go away and plot revenge or has a friend dispel him.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 03:21 AM

This time it's my friend and I'm trying to negate him :P

Thanks though, I believe you people have given me enough stuff to make me stick to my charm sorcerer, and incredibly annoy my friend.

After the pit fiends teleports away, my friend will add a fourth instruction next time. "Adventure with me for now."

Oh, and there is no planar binding contract. You just call him, enchant him, and break the circle. I've been doing that too so he doesn't go away and plot revenge or has a friend dispel him.

If you don't specify a contract then it simply disappears when the spell fails 1 day/cl later. Alternately, it takes the order you give in the casting of geas as the contract for planar binding as well and when the duration of geas lapses, it announces "I'm done," and goes home to begin plotting its revenge. Either way you get it for 1 day/cl and then it's time to start watching your back and sleeping with one eye opened.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 03:31 AM

If you don't specify a contract then it simply disappears when the spell fails 1 day/cl later. Alternately, it takes the order you give in the casting of geas as the contract for planar binding as well and when the duration of geas lapses, it announces "I'm done," and goes home to begin plotting its revenge. Either way you get it for 1 day/cl and then it's time to start watching your back and sleeping with one eye opened.

Planar binding is instantaneous, and it says you can keep it bound as long as you want, and if you want to get rid of it you need to do it by some other spell, so I disagree on no contract = maximum 1day/CL. But that's a different topic, and you can order it to tell you its name so you can re-bind him the moment he goes back.

For an open-ended geas like "Obey my instructions", he could just cast a new geas on the final day, or 2nd last day to be even safer.

If the pit fiend does escape, or at least when my pit fiend escapes in our campaign, my entire party ditches me immediately, and the moment I run out of high level spells in any encounter, I die :(. Or fall asleep. Either by the pit fiend himself or one of those assassin devils. That's when i started making it tell me its name XD.

Anyways, creature trying its utmost best to help you > a creature trying its utmost best to thwart you. So I'm the better moocher/extorter/criminal >:D

Oh and all that stuff you said about plugging its ears during casting + language dependence, etc.

Plugged ears + at-will magic circle = immunity. And arguably, making him bleed in any way will disrupt the circle.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 03:47 AM

Planar binding is instantaneous, and it says you can keep it bound as long as you want, and if you want to get rid of it you need to do it by some other spell, so I disagree on no contract = maximum 1day/CL. But that's a different topic, and you can order it to tell you its name so you can re-bind him the moment he goes back.

For an open-ended geas like "Obey my instructions", he could just cast a new geas on the final day, or 2nd last day to be even safer.

If the pit fiend does escape, or at least when my pit fiend escapes in our campaign, my entire party ditches me immediately, and the moment I run out of high level spells in any encounter, I die :(. Or fall asleep. That's when i started making it tell me its name XD.

Seems I was thinking of magic circle instead of planar binding proper. No matter. It can still take your first command after it's under the geas as the terms of the contract and leave as soon as it's done with it. It can interpret "Avoid anything that could relinquish you from my command to the best of your ability," as simply not actively seeking to have the geas dispelled. It'll wear off on its own so he doesn't need to do so. Hell, he'd even be able to throw up a magic circle to suppress it under that interpretation and then ignore it in trying to dispel it or get it dispelled.

Geas was intended to put the target under a geas (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/geas?searchDictCode=all) or on a quest. Trying to squeeze more out of it is in bad form and just begs to be twisted as badly as a monkey's paw wish.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 04:00 AM

Geas was intended to put the target under a geas (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/geas?searchDictCode=all) or on a quest. Trying to squeeze more out of it is in bad form and just begs to be twisted as badly as a monkey's paw wish.

"magically imposed" seems like slavery to me. This spell would be perfect for a slave master.

How about "Serve me to the absolute best of your ability?"

Since that requires the subject's interpretation, you don't have to specify every little detail. The subject also knows if he's being dishonest or twisting words or subverting instructions, which prevents him from taking advantage of that since he knows subverting instructions is not serving to the best of his ability, but ignoring those potential subversions is.

Plugging ears won't work either. If you say the command when you start casting, even though if he plugs his ears, he'll know plugging his ears is not serving you to the best of your ability, so once the spell is complete and any protection is removed, he'll unplug his ears and serve you.

When i played BG2, there was a geased dragon who was going mad. You remove his geas, he leaves without fighting. Seems like that usage is how geas is supposed to feel. Total slavery. Unless it's given by a cleric, in which case quest is voluntary, like a recovering alcoholic would request a quest to refrain him from drinking.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 04:04 AM

If you say the command when you start casting
Since you choose the effect once you finish casting, you must say the command when you end casting.

Unless it's given by a cleric, in which case quest is voluntary
Huh?

SinsI

2014-12-22, 04:06 AM

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 04:13 AM

Described combo won't work.
Planar Binding requires you to create a magic circle.
Magic circles protect against execution of mind control, so you won't be able to give commands while the creature is inside that magic circle.

Magic circle repels evil creatures. That's why trying to touch someone inside the circle requires checks. If the circle is bound inwards, it's preventing the creature from moving outside the circle, so why would the creature be protected? The modified protection effect is the one keeping it inside.

Since you choose the effect once you finish casting, you must say the command when you end casting.

Huh?

Do you have a source on that? If it's just interpretation, then it can be ruled either way.

I was saying clerics use quest on voluntary people, where as wizards use it on involuntary people.

Worst case scenario, there's always baleful polymorph. Turn the guy into a chicken so he can't block his ears, and then cast geas. Or some other similar disabling spell.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 04:21 AM

Do you have a source on that? If it's just interpretation, then it can be ruled either way.
MilesTiden quoted it earlier:

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

I was saying clerics use quest on voluntary people, where as wizards use it on involuntary people.
That is no more correct than me saying: "wizards use geas on voluntary people, where as clerics use it on involuntary people."

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 04:24 AM

That is no more correct than me saying: "wizards use geas on voluntary people, where as clerics use it on involuntary people."

That was just my interpretation on how clerics use that spell lore wise.

Anyways, magic circle does not protect you from baleful polymorph, so

1. Planar bind the outsider
2. Baleful polymorph it until you succeed
3. Strap the chicken down so it can't move and only hear. Clucking incessantly does not make it deaf.
4. Cast the geas.
5. Dispel everything but the geas.

"Serve me to the absolute best of your ability" cannot be subverted unless the being truly believes my death is my salvation, which is never the case for outsiders. Only weird suicide cultist leaders can subvert this command. Those who believe I'd be better off put in my rightful place as a lemure would know that's a lie and serving me would be letting me avoid that fate and become a pit fiend a.s.a.p..

It may think what I'm doing is wrong for me, so it may do stuff like feeding me only vegetables and taking away all my junk food. But these can be countered by making a "Obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability" (geased command) followed by a "Serve me to the absolute best of your ability." to negate all possible subversions and make it do what it thinks is bad for me, like giving me junk food.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 04:30 AM

"magically imposed" seems like slavery to me. This spell would be perfect for a slave master.

How about "Serve me to the absolute best of your ability?"

Wrong key word. "Obligation or prohibition" is what you're looking at. It's a much, much simpler thing than any kind of service. Always offer guests good hospitality or never speak ill of the dead; that sort of thing. Brush up on your irish folklore for a better idea.

Since that requires the subject's interpretation, you don't have to specify every little detail. The subject also knows if he's being dishonest or twisting words or subverting instructions, which prevents him from taking advantage of that since he knows subverting instructions is not serving to the best of his ability, but ignoring those potential subversions is.

Hah! No.

There's -nothing- in geas' spell description to suggest that the subject can't intentionally misinterpret the given command. That's a big part of why it's supposed to be kept simple. You have to realize that he can interpret "to the best of his ability" to be using his skills and abilities as efficiently as possible without it having anything at all to do with honoring your intent. Hell, you should -expect- such duplicity from literally every devil you ever bind discounting those that are mindless (and consequently immune to geas anyway).

Plugging ears won't work either. If you say the command when you start casting, even though if he plugs his ears, he'll know plugging his ears is not serving you to the best of your ability, so once the spell is complete and any protection is removed, he'll unplug his ears and serve you.

You say the command at the end, when all the spell's effects go into place, or so I'd presume since the other way around makes no sense. Not that it matters. The spell doesn't actually do -anything- until the end of the 10 minute casting period and up until that point the creature is free to act however it pleases under the circumstances. When the command is given isn't actually specified and the creature doesn't have to obey it until the spell is in place. For a language dependent spell, any period of inability to hear or understand during the casting is sufficient. Covering his ears will work just fine.

When i played BG2, there was a geased dragon who was going mad. You remove his geas, he leaves without fighting. Seems like that usage is how geas is supposed to feel. Total slavery. Unless it's given by a cleric, in which case quest is voluntary, like a recovering alcoholic would request a quest to refrain him from drinking.

Not at all. For one thing the creature could've been compelled simply to rampage. He was given a quest to simply rampage in the given city for a while. There is -no- difference between the divine and arcane versions of the spell. Whether you call it geas or quest is utterly irrelevant.

Far more importantly, the video games are a -terrible- source for anything at all to do with the TT game. The CRPG is descended from the TTRPG and those designers made the necessary adaptations to make it work. Some of those really screwed up the nature and feel of things.

The source of geas/quest is folklore and legends to do with being magically compelled to go on a quest or to observe some peculiar cultural more. It's not, and never was, meant to be magically compelled slavery. That's dominate.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 04:32 AM

That was just my interpretation on how clerics use that spell lore wise.

Anyways, magic circle does not protect you from baleful polymorph, so

1. Planar bind the outsider
2. Baleful polymorph it until you succeed
3. Strap the chicken down so it can't move and only hear. Clucking incessantly does not make it deaf.
4. Cast the geas.
5. Dispel everything but the geas.

"Serve me to the absolute best of your ability" cannot be subverted unless the being truly believes my death is my salvation, which is never the case for outsiders. Only weird suicide cultist leaders can subvert this command. Those who believe I'd be better off put in my rightful place as a lemure would know that's a lie and serving me would be letting me avoid that fate and become a pit fiend a.s.a.p..

It may think what I'm doing is wrong for me, so it may do stuff like feeding me only vegetables and taking away all my junk food. But these can be countered by making a "Obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability" (geased command) followed by a "Serve me to the absolute best of your ability." to negate all possible subversions and make it do what it thinks is bad for me, like giving me junk food.

Int 2 means no language ability. It doesn't matter that the chicken can hear, it can't understand. The spell fails.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 04:35 AM

Int 2 means no language ability. It doesn't matter that the chicken can hear, it can't understand. The spell fails.

You are correct. It's just a matter of finding the right helpless save-or-x. If anyone has one please share.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 04:44 AM

You are correct. It's just a matter of finding the right helpless save-or-x. If anyone has one please share.

Ray of enfeeblement spamming :D

Strength 0 = helpless, but ray of enfeeblement gets it down to 1. Almost there! Some kind of poison perhaps?

Otherwise you're going to have to create an AMF field and then just pile on the guy and tie it up.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 04:49 AM

Ray of enfeeblement spamming :D

Strength 0 = helpless, but ray of enfeeblement gets it down to 1. Almost there! Some kind of poison perhaps?

Otherwise you're going to have to create an AMF field and then just pile on the guy and tie it up.

Outsiders are immune to poisons.

Ya know what's a save-or-lose that will get the creature to do what you want? Dominate monster.

Scrolls are cheap and easily activated.

I don't get why people keep trying to reinvent the wheel with square parts.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 04:50 AM

Outsiders are immune to poisons.

Ya know what's a save-or-lose that will get the creature to do what you want? Dominate monster.

Scrolls are cheap and easily activated.

I second that XD

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 04:55 AM

Ya know what's a save-or-lose that will get the creature to do what you want? Dominate monster.

Scrolls are cheap and easily activated.

Obviously the OP's friend is trying to get access to the dominate effect without relying on some sort of outside help. I agree with the guy who said charm is better suited for that. Geas just has too many ways of countering to be reliable, and it will be like arguing un-counterable wishes.

Besides, there's nothing stopping you from charming the creature and then placing a geas. Since he's your friend he'll willingly accept it. Whether he needs a charisma check or not depends on the DM, but if your charisma check is high enough like in the charmer sorcerer case, the point is moot. Sorcerers have only 3 level 6 spells, so using one to use as a backup to a level 4 spell is absurd.

Also, placing a geas with the command "obey my commands to the best of your ability" is arguable violently against all outsider's alignment.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 05:01 AM

Since he's your friend he'll willingly accept it.

I know I'd never let my friends geas me, that sounds terrifying :smalleek:

Sam K

2014-12-22, 05:04 AM

Ordering someone to be your slave or to serve you to the best of their ability doesn't mean they have to follow your commands. Being someon's slave can be interpreted as in being their legal property and not having any rights as an individual in society (most outsiders doesn't have rights in mortal society anyway). Just watch that pit fiend go Spartacus on you! Sure, they are lawful, but their society isn't one where stronger creatures submit to weaker ones because "there is a fuzzy ruling that implies that this may be the way it should be".

You might be able to use a geas in order to force a creature to "obey all your commands", but that wording doesn't prevent it from doing other things as well. If you geas it to do "nothing but obey your commands", you have to micro manage it in the extreme, greatly reducing the usefulness of the creature.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 05:09 AM

I know I'd never let my friends geas me, that sounds terrifying :smalleek:

Charm monster can make you accept the geas if you lose the charisma check :P

Seems like it's a general consensus to avoid geas because of the lawyer stuff.

I might still grab it though, cloudkill and limited wish are amazing spells, and if I grab geas, I'll have all the spells for a 54hd huge iron golem :D. I also get PaO, which opens the door to iron colossus.

So... to all those geas haters out there.
How is this spell supposed to be used? o_o.
It really seems like it's supposed to be used to enslave creatures into your service.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 05:16 AM

Charm monster can make you accept the geas if you lose the charisma check :P
I have the highest charisma score out of all my friends bar 1, and she isn't exactly the caster type.... I'm safe...

Also, still disagree that it can do that by RAI.

How is this spell supposed to be used? o_o.
It really seems like it's supposed to be used to enslave creatures into your service.
You order them to do 1 thing. Not to be an eternal servant. That's it.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 05:21 AM

Wait...

Geas has only a verbal component. Doesn't that mean if you silence it, there is absolutely no way anyone can tell you're casting geas because you're just standing still? After all, spellcraft says you gotta either see the S component or hear the V component.

edit:Never mind! if you can't hear the command it fails XD.

Thanks a bunch guys, I got a ton of stuff to use against my friend next time. Boy is he gonna be angry at me.

The only way my DM will allow geas now is if he forks over the 300xp for limited wish for the standard action casting time.

Also, still disagree that it can do that by RAI.

Probably right. I'll just stick to "kill that" and "don't kill that" commands with charm.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 05:29 AM

I found it.

Suggestion.

Cast suggestion and suggest it to accept a geas from you.

If you fail the first time, the guy will plug his ears, in which case you gotta cast hold person or something similar.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 05:36 AM

Charm monster can make you accept the geas if you lose the charisma check :P

I doubt that but that's another thread, already in progress.

Seems like it's a general consensus to avoid geas because of the lawyer stuff. Not at all. It's just a bad idea to try and push the spell way past what it was intended to do.

So... to all those geas haters out there.
How is this spell supposed to be used? o_o.
It really seems like it's supposed to be used to enslave creatures into your service.

It's supposed to compel or prohibit specific behaviors or to act as a sign of devotion for those willingly accepting a quest. That's it.

A wizard would cast it on a thief with the geas "obey the freakin' law, ya little wretch," as a way of teaching him a lesson without having to torture, kill, or turn him over to the authorities.

Alternately, it could be placed on a fallen paladin just before an atonement to compel him to go on his atonement quest, even though he was gonna do that anyway, and that could allow the casting cleric to bypass the 500xp cost of atonement.

Things like that.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 05:36 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 05:45 AM

How would you word that suggestion? :smallconfused:

Do not resist the next spell I cast on you.

Though, again, it'd be a -lot- simpler to just hit the stupid thing with dominate. If you're already going to have to push two will saves past it at 12+stat mod and 16+stat mod why not just use one at 19+stat mod.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 05:48 AM

How would you word that suggestion? :smallconfused:

I will only let you accompany me if you accept a geas from me but that's a really small price to pay compared to how incredibly beneficial my company would be since I am a powerful wizard who just keeps getting stronger.

It doesn't have to persuade the guy, just has to be "reasonable". Otherwise, why would you need the spell?

Kill your wife so you can marry a young and beautiful girl -> would qualify in my opinion to get a paladin to kill his wife.

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 05:48 AM

Do not resist the next spell I cast on you.

I would not consider that reasonable.

The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

Edit:

Kill your wife so you can marry a young and beautiful girl -> would qualify in my opinion to get a paladin to kill his wife.

That is insanity :smalleek:

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 05:50 AM

I doubt that but that's another thread, already in progress.

Yeah... I'm not gonna push that. Seems like a huge part of the population is against that so... XD

Doesn't matter though, no one says I can't charm an outsider into fighting for me. That's all I wanted, no weird shenanigans, just a willing soldier.

That is insanity :smalleek:

Nah, that's reasonable. Young girls are hot, old wives are ugly, getting married to a young girl is awesome. You could see the reasons in there so it's "reasonable", not to you or to the paladin, who probably loves his wife.

Maybe an easier example is
"Go to sleep, it'll all work out somehow, it always does" to a student cramming for his finals.

Again, if it's a good enough reason to persuade the guy, what's the point of the spell then?

Milo v3

2014-12-22, 05:53 AM

Doesn't matter though, no one says I can't charm an outsider into fighting for me. That's all I wanted, no weird shenanigans, just a willing soldier.

So summon monster.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 05:53 AM

I would not consider that reasonable.

Okay, "do not resist the next spell I cast on you or I'll torture you for 3 days then ask again."

Anything can sound reasonable with enough caveats.

A little less agressive; "do not resist the next spell I cast on you because you won't be able to stop it anyway and doing so will be easier on both of us."

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 05:55 AM

Okay, "do not resist the next spell I cast on you or I'll torture you for 3 days then ask again."

Anything can sound reasonable with enough caveats.

A little less agressive; "do not resist the next spell I cast on you because you won't be able to stop it anyway and doing so will be easier on both of us."

You're pretty good with suggestion o_o.

Damn it, this is actually good. Pass a heightened suggestion and you got yourself an eternal slave unless the DM is smart enough to subvert. My DM would probably not bother unless he geases more than 1 or 2 guys at a time.

So summon monster.

To clarify, a willing AWESOME soldier that instills fear into the enemy, looks cool, and doesn't disappear after a minute.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 05:58 AM

You're pretty good with suggestion o_o.

Damn it, this is actually good. Pass a heightened suggestion and you got yourself an eternal slave unless the DM is smart enough to subvert. My DM would probably not bother unless he geases more than 1 or 2 guys at a time.

If you want an eternal slave, you can get one from the mindbender PrC. It's literally one of the class' features. It's generally ignored as a half-progression prestige class but it's still there.

Sith_Happens

2014-12-22, 06:35 AM

What if command 1 was: "Obey all of my instructions to the best of your ability, forever"?

Then you'd better be extremely careful instructing a Pit Fiend to do anything at all, otherwise "to the best of your ability" = "maximum overkill."

You: "[Person] owes me money. Go get it from him."
Pit Fiend: *tracks down [Person], kills them and all potential witnesses, picks money off of their corpse*

I would not consider that reasonable.

Considering the full PHB text for Suggestion says you can tell someone the pool of acid you want them to swim is harmless, "Accept the next spell I cast, you'll like it I promise" definitely works.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 07:39 AM

Then you'd better be extremely careful instructing a Pit Fiend to do anything at all, otherwise "to the best of your ability" = "maximum overkill."

You: "[Person] owes me money. Go get it from him."
Pit Fiend: *tracks down [Person], kills them and all potential witnesses, picks money off of their corpse*

The type of guy that would use a pit fiend would definitely say, overkill is never a bad thing.

Case study: I'm the type of person who will have a persistent pit fiend escort 24/7. I say overkill is never a bad thing.

Nuff said.

In a more serious note, anyone with half a mind would restrict the pit fiend to solely combat or advisory roles. The "serve me to the best of your ability" would force him to give good advice that won't result in my death. Maybe damnation, but it's just advice. You can ignore it. And besides, this type of damnation advice will end in your favor, despite being damned.

If you want an eternal slave, you can get one from the mindbender PrC. It's literally one of the class' features. It's generally ignored as a half-progression prestige class but it's still there.

It's not so much as I want a slave but more like I want to be a demon/devil master. Half caster progression will delay my planar bindings too much, and most campaigns I've played don't reach level 8 spells.

SinsI

2014-12-22, 08:23 AM

Magic circle repels evil creatures. That's why trying to touch someone inside the circle requires checks. If the circle is bound inwards, it's preventing the creature from moving outside the circle, so why would the creature be protected? The modified protection effect is the one keeping it inside.

As always, it is subject to DM's judgment.

My reasoning is this:

Protection from evil: "It creates a magical barrier around the subject". "the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature"

Both uses of magic circle create the same barrier - so they both block attempts to exercise mental control.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 08:43 AM

As always, it is subject to DM's judgment.

My reasoning is this:

Protection from evil: "It creates a magical barrier around the subject". "the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature"

Both uses of magic circle create the same barrier - so they both block attempts to exercise mental control.

Actually... thanks for bringing this up.

I do disagree with you however. I consider the "barrier" one way. Whether you place it facing out or in is what you control.

Protection from evil has no inverted effect, and targets only one guy, so this one can't be inverted.

Magic circle however, is literally a circle not a shield surrounding a creature, so you just place the barriers the other way and that's that. No protection. The guy is bound inside.

So kind of like one way windows. You either surround yourself with the window side and enemy only sees a walking cylindrical mirror, or you place the windows outside, like an interrogation room.

Anyways, your talk of protection from evil just made me realize suggestion fails against protected creatures. So if the DM is ruling your way, there is absolutely nothing you can do to bind them with suggestion + geas. Only charm/dominate and breaking the circle will, so your way of ruling is in my favor.

Honestly, I've given up trying to mind-rape outsiders with protection with enchantment spells, pit fiend included. I've been limiting only to mariliths as my strongest planar bound outsider. I'm gonna force this down on my friend too.

I guess you can only bind pit fiends if you gate one in and then geas it, or actually pay them (we cheapskates will never do this! XD)

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-22, 10:13 AM

Flickerdart

2014-12-22, 10:30 AM

Since the command has a specific end date and can be carried out by the creature it doesn't trigger the open ended tasks clause.
That's really something that's going to vary from table to table. No DM I've ever played under would consider "serve me" to be anything but an open-ended command, regardless of the time period requested. Also, "serve me for X time" is not a service that the creature can complete through its own actions (only the passage of time completes it, regardless of what the creature does, so unless you've got a creature capable of making time on Sigil go faster...).

I could be convinced to let something like "join me in seeing Lord Badguy dead and Castle Badguy burned to the ground" slide as a specific request, since it's something the creature can do under its own power, and has a clear end-goal.

Psyren

2014-12-22, 10:50 AM

What Flickerdart said - time alone is not the only factor to make something "open-ended."

And there is no possible way to rules-lawyer "unreasonable" away either - reasonableness is and always has been 100% up to the DM to determine, with the player having no recourse but to vote with their feet if they disagree strongly enough.

MilesTiden

2014-12-22, 01:04 PM

Actually... thanks for bringing this up.

I do disagree with you however. I consider the "barrier" one way. Whether you place it facing out or in is what you control.

Protection from evil has no inverted effect, and targets only one guy, so this one can't be inverted.

Magic circle however, is literally a circle not a shield surrounding a creature, so you just place the barriers the other way and that's that. No protection. The guy is bound inside.

All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature’s spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from evil), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies’ spell resistance.

This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.

Either they are within the area of the spell (the binding circle), or they are too large to be contained, so have the spell directly applied. It does have an effect, even when applied inwards. It wouldn't have to specify that section about a creature being too large if it didn't normally apply the protection from evil effect. So he does have protection. It being focused 'inwards' doesn't change the spell's range.

Surpriser

2014-12-22, 01:24 PM

Another aspect that has not yet been brought up:

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/quest. from the SRD.

This seems to imply that the creature is fully capable to choose not to follow the geas (otherwise, this clause would make no sense, as attempting to follow the geas is enough to avoid the penalties, even if it were incapable to actually achieve anything towards this goal). And in that case, well, say goodbye to your servant (3d6 damage is next to nothing for a Pit Fiend, considering that it will immediately start plotting your demise as fast as realistically possible)

Even so, the order you place must either severly cripple any abilities the creature possesses ("Do nothing except what I order you to do") or allow it enough agency to work against you even within the framework of the order (and no matter how talented at being a slave master you are, eventually you WILL give an order that can be subverted)

Psyren

2014-12-22, 02:00 PM

Another aspect that has not yet been brought up:

from the SRD.

This seems to imply that the creature is fully capable to choose not to follow the geas (otherwise, this clause would make no sense, as attempting to follow the geas is enough to avoid the penalties, even if it were incapable to actually achieve anything towards this goal). And in that case, well, say goodbye to your servant (3d6 damage is next to nothing for a Pit Fiend, considering that it will immediately start plotting your demise as fast as realistically possible)

Even so, the order you place must either severly cripple any abilities the creature possesses ("Do nothing except what I order you to do") or allow it enough agency to work against you even within the framework of the order (and no matter how talented at being a slave master you are, eventually you WILL give an order that can be subverted)

That line is odd but geas most certainly compels the activity. SRD:

This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

So I read it not as "do this or else" - I read it as "Do this. If you are physically unable to, this happens."

Necroticplague

2014-12-22, 02:04 PM

Another aspect that has not yet been brought up:

from the SRD.

This seems to imply that the creature is fully capable to choose not to follow the geas (otherwise, this clause would make no sense, as attempting to follow the geas is enough to avoid the penalties, even if it were incapable to actually achieve anything towards this goal). And in that case, well, say goodbye to your servant (3d6 damage is next to nothing for a Pit Fiend, considering that it will immediately start plotting your demise as fast as realistically possible)
Really? To me, that implies that if it is forced to stop, it starts taking damage. Since that portion is referencing the lesser gaes spell and is saying it replaces the penalty with damage. And the relevant section in lesser gaes says
If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.
As far as I see it, it just replaces the italicized part with 3d6 damage and a FORT save vs. sickened until 24 hours have passed with it following the gaes.

georgie_leech

2014-12-22, 02:30 PM

Really? To me, that implies that if it is forced to stop, it starts taking damage. Since that portion is referencing the lesser gaes spell and is saying it replaces the penalty with damage. And the relevant section in lesser gaes says
As far as I see it, it just replaces the italicized part with 3d6 damage and a FORT save vs. sickened until 24 hours have passed with it following the gaes.

Side note, does it seem to anyone else that the penalty to ability scores is worse than the damage? Unless it's supposed to be un-healable or something like that, a potential -8 to all Ability Scores just seems so much worse.

Flickerdart

2014-12-22, 02:32 PM

Necroticplague

2014-12-22, 02:35 PM

Side note, does it seem to anyone else that the penalty to ability scores is worse than the damage? Unless it's supposed to be un-healable or something like that, a potential -8 to all Ability Scores just seems so much worse.

I think its a matter of usefullness. Since the only HP that matters is the last one, damaging your thrall is of minor consequence. Meanwhile, the ability penalty leaves them less able to perform the function you have them do. And as the end result, the damage can matter more because the damage can kill you, while a penalty can't kill you unless your con score is 8 or less.

Sith_Happens

2014-12-22, 03:33 PM

Why do people order creatures to obey them "forever"? That is an unlimited command and thus only lasts 1 day per caster level.

Just order them to obey you for the next hundred trillion years, Sigil standard time. Since the command has a specific end date and can be carried out by the creature it doesn't trigger the open ended tasks clause. It is also not technically impossible so the only hurdle is "unreasonable requests", but you can rules lawyer that one to hell and gone.

Besides the aforementioned bit where an "open-ended" task is any task that the subject can't compete through their own actions, Lesser Geas has "One day/level" in the Duration line so no order can last longer than that regardless.

Renen

2014-12-22, 04:14 PM

Theres always mindrape guys...

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 05:32 PM

Besides the aforementioned bit where an "open-ended" task is any task that the subject can't compete through their own actions, Lesser Geas has "One day/level" in the Duration line so no order can last longer than that regardless.

I disagree with both tippy and sith.

An action that can't be completed by their own actions lasts 1day/CL. Guard a thing for 100000000000 years can't be completed by their own actions.

Both geas and planar binding state IF the task at hands can't be completed by their own action, the 1day/CL comes into play.

Psyren

2014-12-22, 05:35 PM

Sith_Happens

2014-12-22, 07:21 PM

To play Tippy's Advocate, he could have been thinking of a 365-trillion-CL scroll obtained via Su Wish :smallbiggrin:

Of course, that would still run into the other issues with "open-ended," but it would at least solve the hard duration issue.

(Please don't throw DMGs at me, I bruise easily.)

What about throwing a number theory textbook at you? Because 365 trillion isn't nearly high enough, if you're really serious it should be caster level A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function)(g64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number),g64) at the very least.:smalltongue:

Jack_Simth

2014-12-22, 08:04 PM

What about throwing a number theory textbook at you? Because 365 trillion isn't nearly high enough, if you're really serious it should be caster level A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function)(g64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number),g64) at the very least.:smalltongue:
Clearly, you've read at least a little xkcd (http://xkcd.com/207/). Do note, however, that unless you're planning on living a particularly exceptionally long time, the difference between 365 trillion days and A(g64,g64) days is largely irrelevant to you and your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandkids.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 08:11 PM

Clearly, you've read at least a little xkcd (http://xkcd.com/207/). Do note, however, that unless you're planning on living a particularly exceptionally long time, the difference between 365 trillion days and A(g64,g64) days is largely irrelevant to you and your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandkids.

What wizard worth his salt doesn't plan on living until the heat-death of the universe?

Vhaidara

2014-12-22, 08:19 PM

What wizard worth his salt doesn't plan on living until through the heat-death of the universe?

Fixed that for you.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 08:40 PM

Either they are within the area of the spell (the binding circle), or they are too large to be contained, so have the spell directly applied. It does have an effect, even when applied inwards. It wouldn't have to specify that section about a creature being too large if it didn't normally apply the protection from evil effect. So he does have protection. It being focused 'inwards' doesn't change the spell's range.

That's the main debate. My side says because he was too big for the barriers, it turned into a protection from evil, not magic circle. Your side says both protection and trapping is in effect, but because the trapping failed, only protection is left.

Lets leave it at that.

Oh and heat death doesn't apply in d&d. With one spell you can destroy heat, so... good bye law of conservation of mass and energy. Not to mention you can make matter from nothing (stone wall and the like)

Malimar

2014-12-22, 09:46 PM

Troacctid

2014-12-22, 09:54 PM

ben-zayb

2014-12-22, 10:14 PM

You geas the pit fiend, "Serve me to the best of your ability". The pit fiend immediately tries his very best to murder you, roast you up nice and crisp, and serve you to his family as Asmodeusmas dinner.Yeah, I can definitely see this as something a devil will do; if puny humans are clever enough to rules-lawyer their way to TO in more or less decades of experience, just imagine what can these exemplars of Lawful Evil do with hundreds or thousands of years under their belt.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 10:15 PM

Troacctid

2014-12-22, 10:33 PM

To play the devil's advocate, this isn't wish. If the target honestly knows what the caster wants, he has to follow that even though he knows several ways to subvert it.

Besides, "obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability and do nothing else" replicates dominate IMO.

1. The spell description explicitly says they can interpret your command in a way that subverts your intention.
2. "Obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability and do nothing else" sounds like two commands to me. You only get one.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-22, 11:19 PM

1. The spell description explicitly says they can interpret your command in a way that subverts your intention.
2. "Obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability and do nothing else" sounds like two commands to me. You only get one.

1. You're right, my bad.

2. Fine, say do nothing else after you place the geas.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 11:45 PM

2. Fine, say do nothing else after you place the geas.

Two possibilities spring instantly to mind.

The bound creature stands still and does nothing for the duration of the spell since any orders that follow contradict the first.

The instruction to do nothing holds only until the first time you countermand it and after doing whatever that second command is, he's free to act once more unless you immediately follow it with "do nothing."

magicalmagicman

2014-12-22, 11:47 PM

Say "do nothing else except obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability." instead of the whole 2 commands things.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-22, 11:50 PM

Say "do nothing else except obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability." instead of the whole 2 commands things.

Then you're still dealing with the creature interpreting you commands to as literal or as prosaic a degree as it needs to circumvent your will and/or being as useful as a mindless creature.

If you want a creature that will act as you want, you either need its cooperation or you need to dominate it.

ben-zayb

2014-12-22, 11:59 PM

Say "do nothing else except obey my commands to the absolute best of your ability." instead of the whole 2 commands things.Does this exclude the DC 0 Listen check to hear you talk after the Geas?

magicalmagicman

2014-12-23, 12:19 AM

Then you're still dealing with the creature interpreting you commands to as literal or as prosaic a degree as it needs to circumvent your will and/or being as useful as a mindless creature.

If you want a creature that will act as you want, you either need its cooperation or you need to dominate it.

If the purpose of the geas is to use the pit fiend as a beat stick then this would be fine. If it's anything else then you are correct.

I would say stuff like "misinterprets 'serve me' as 'serve me as dinner'" wouldn't work because they are arguably speaking infernal, which we have no knowledge of.

For the 2nd command you can say "If you know you're subverting my instructions, don't do it", it would be quite hard for the pit fiend to subvert.

But as for whether or not the pit fiend is enslave-able even with dominate is questionable. People seem to forget he has a 1/year wish. He can simply wish for your death and you're dead, as the DM is the one controlling what wish can and cannot do.

Stick with outsiders without magic circle or wish. From a quick review of demons, it seems mariliths are the best candidate.

Renen

2014-12-23, 12:31 AM

Vhaidara

2014-12-23, 12:35 AM

Tell it to obey you.
Then tell it to stand still, and get mindraped by you.

The entire point of this is to do it without 9ths.

So Sanctum Spell Mindrape it. That's an 8th, if I'm not mistaken in my cheese-fu.

EDIT: To it loving you, do you realized how messed up the love of a LE creature can be? And even if it's normalish love, do you want that thing to o the dirty with you? It's probably got like buzzsaws on it or something.

Lanson

2014-12-23, 12:35 AM

I would say stuff like "misinterprets 'serve me' as 'serve me as dinner'" wouldn't work because they are arguably speaking infernal, which we have no knowledge of.

Technically, "serve me" does not include anything that would prevent the hostile demon from killing the caster. Many slaves revolt against their masters who force them to "serve" and a more on topic note: the evil outsiders in question may see mercy killing the caster as a "service," as the caster would no longer have to worry about being mortal, fearing death, dying slowly of old age/disease/murder/ect...

Besides, "serve me" is open ended and at the very least service is ended after a single task, say... letting you finish your sentence before at-will fireballing you to death. Basically, being in someone's service does not explicitly state that you cannot take hostile actions against them. If the command stated "do not take hostile actions against me" they would still have the issue of an uncontrolled evil outsider slaughtering any nearby partymates.

I am also in the camp of: The outsider is in a magic circle effect, which explicitly states protects against these effects. Being 'focused inwards' does not remove the fact that they are still within the effect of a magic circle.

Renen

2014-12-23, 12:37 AM

Thats why you say "Obey me" or even better, "Please me with your service/obedience"

The entire point of this is to do it without 9ths.

So Sanctum Spell Mindrape it. That's an 8th, if I'm not mistaken in my cheese-fu.

EDIT: To it loving you, do you realized how messed up the love of a LE creature can be? And even if it's normalish love, do you want that thing to o the dirty with you? It's probably got like buzzsaws on it or something.

But who cares? If it loves me emotionally, I just tell it that sex isnt a thing in this relationship. Sure the demon will suffer w/o being in my glorious naked presence, but will still follow me like a puppy on a leash trying to make me pet it.

Lanson

2014-12-23, 12:41 AM

Or actually I wonder... What would happen if you tell it to love you (emotionally, cuz I dont wanna picture any summoned creature loving you physically.)?

Thats why you say "Obey me" or even better, "Please me with your service/obedience"

Unless the language you say it in is specific in it's context... Bow-chicka-wow-wow?

Edit: Obedience still does not stop it from harming you, it merely means it will follow your commands, if it allows you to live long enough to give any. But, as with all things Dnd, both your argument and mine are up to the DM, no matter how Compelling:smallwink:

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 12:52 AM

Vhaidara

2014-12-23, 12:55 AM

After the obey commands stuff, how about make me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc.

I don't know about you guys but I'm having fun :D

Subverting and counter subverting is a nice brain teaser.

Wish you out of existence. Nothing is more powerful than Asmodeus (he lets others think they are), so he makes you nothing.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 12:58 AM

Wish you out of existence. Nothing is more powerful than Asmodeus (he lets others think they are), so he makes you nothing.

My bad, I meant "help me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc." or "Do your best" or whatever. That way he has to actively make you stronger by making you richer, getting you fortresses, getting you an army, etc, while avoiding anything that will cause you to bite off more than you could chew, like being targetted by every nation in the region, or by celestials, etc.

Only his incompetence will lead you to your death.

Anyways, doesn't have to be pit fiend. i agree with magicalmagicman that even with dominate monsters, pit fiends are too dangerous to enslave without gate. In fact glabrezus might be too dangerous too. Damn, I need to switch to another 12hd demon/devil. Bebelith? Q_Q, hate that bugger.

Troacctid

2014-12-23, 01:00 AM

After the obey commands stuff, how about make me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc.

See, I'd come up with a way to subvert your expectations, but I'm not sure how you expect them to go about following that command in the first place. What are they supposed to do? Kill everyone more powerful than you? Pull a ten-zillion-xp Thought Bottle out of their bottom?

Lanson

2014-12-23, 01:01 AM

After the obey commands stuff, how about make me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc.

I don't know about you guys but I'm having fun :D

Subverting and counter subverting is a nice brain teaser.

Can you PAO someone into a divine being? If I recall, PaO does not contain the line that forbids you from choosing specific creatures to turn into. In which case: Wish to emulate Polymorph any Object to turn you into whatever overdeity your realm uses... such as Ao in Faerun and... I'm not sure about Ebberon has for an overdiety, if any.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-23, 01:16 AM

See, I'd come up with a way to subvert your expectations, but I'm not sure how you expect them to go about following that command in the first place. What are they supposed to do? Kill everyone more powerful than you? Pull a ten-zillion-xp Thought Bottle out of their bottom?

Killing everyone more powerful than you will result in the wizard getting targeted by forces even stronger than the pit fiend so that would not work.

Pulling a ten-zillion-xp thought bottle would only work on the person who made the bottle.

As far as I can tell, that instruction is brilliant. The pit fiend has to accompany you to ensure you don't die, find ways to increase your strength/magic power/influence/etc.

As for the "please me with your obedience/servitude" comment, I agree on the inappropriate result.

I believe PaO has a hd limit of 15.

Renen

2014-12-23, 01:28 AM

Well nothing says you gotta have above 15 hd to be a god right?
But I dont think you can get divine ranks via PaO. Divine ranks are kinda like feats I guess...

MilesTiden

2014-12-23, 01:36 AM

Don't all deities have 20 Outsider HD in addition to class levels?

Renen

2014-12-23, 01:46 AM

But can a deity bestow divine ranks on you before you are that level, thus making you a deity?

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 01:49 AM

Doesn't matter, PaO doesn't give anything other than base statistics. No special ability, no special quality, etc.

Divinity stuff is Ice assassin, and that is TO and in pun-pun's build. I don't know why we're discussing this. :\

Telok

2014-12-23, 01:55 AM

One facinating side effect of all this could be your outsider sitting down and spending rather a long time thinking. After all the critter probably has a whole slew of SLAs to choose from, it has skills it can leverage for you, and then it has to ask itself if that's really the best thing to do.

What happens when your geased demon, on being ordered to defeat an army, walks into the enemy camp and tries to negotiate a conditional surrender? Order it to kill a dragon and it teleports away, reappears several rounds later with a book, and begins to read Vogon poetry at the dragon. This might be what your bound demon considers to be the "best" way to obey.

But I really live the 'serve me' interpretation. That's just funny.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 02:30 AM

What happens when your geased demon, on being ordered to defeat an army, walks into the enemy camp and tries to negotiate a conditional surrender? Order it to kill a dragon and it teleports away, reappears several rounds later with a book, and begins to read Vogon poetry at the dragon. This might be what your bound demon considers to be the "best" way to obey.

Highly unlikely. Chaotic Evil Demons are by definition, try to create as much havoc and destruction on the material plane when under no one's control. So telling that demon to defeat the army will always result in the armies complete and total mutilation.

Devils on the other side, those stuff are up their ally, and the behavior you described is a desirable one no? Otherwise you can clarify to kill them if you don't want surrenders or you want the dragon dead.

Renen

2014-12-23, 03:07 AM

Question: What if you get some telepathic link going and the do the following:
Destroy that army in the way I want you to. Please consult the telepathic link to understand my feelings and desires on the situation.

So this way you dont nees fancy wording. The telepathic link will tell the slave that you dont desire him screwing with you, that you desire the army to be dead, and that you desire it now.

You cant rules lawyer feelings, because the demon will know EXACTLY every minute detail of your instructions and how you want them carried out. So if you tell them to kill everything in sight, heck even If you are actively thinking it, you dont actually desire to be killed by the demon, so it wont be able to f**k with you. It also wont be able to do any fancy "I have a different definition of X" because it has to act by what you feel and desire, thus if you tell it to "discipline a child" it will know that flaying is NOT an acceptable course of action.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 03:09 AM

Question: What if you get some telepathic link going and the do the following:
Destroy that army in the way I want you to. Please consult the telepathic link to understand my feelings and desires on the situation.

So this way you dont nees fancy wording. The telepathic link will tell the slave that you dont desire him screwing with you, that you desire the army to be dead, and that you desire it now.

You cant rules lawyer feelings, because the demon will know EXACTLY every minute detail of your instructions and how you want them carried out. So if you tell them to kill everything in sight, heck even If you are actively thinking it, you dont actually desire to be killed by the demon, so it wont be able to **** with you.

That's a great idea. It's language independent, says so even in the text.

SinsI

2014-12-23, 04:26 AM

mashlagoo1982

2014-12-23, 10:24 AM

At my table the caster probably wouldn't survive beyond the first command of "Obey my orders" without significant additional magic assistance.

Caster: Obey my orders
Pit Fiend: Ok *rips out trachea of caster*
Caster: *gurgle*
Pit Fiend: If there are no additional orders, I will proceed to wreck havoc and destroy everything you hold dear.

Red Fel

2014-12-23, 10:31 AM

You cant rules lawyer feelings, because the demon will know EXACTLY every minute detail of your instructions and how you want them carried out. So if you tell them to kill everything in sight, heck even If you are actively thinking it, you dont actually desire to be killed by the demon, so it wont be able to f**k with you. It also wont be able to do any fancy "I have a different definition of X" because it has to act by what you feel and desire, thus if you tell it to "discipline a child" it will know that flaying is NOT an acceptable course of action.

You also can't control your feelings. Not fully.

All that demon has to do is make you want to die. Just for a second, just a little. And because you want it, even for a moment, even though you've said nothing, it gets communicated on that telepathic wavelength.

And then he's simply following orders.

And if you don't think a demon can make you feel a desire for self-destruction, even for a second, without laying a hand on you, you really haven't thought much about demons. Which, frankly, is probably healthy.

GreenZ

2014-12-23, 02:03 PM

Highly unlikely. Chaotic Evil Demons are by definition, try to create as much havoc and destruction on the material plane when under no one's control. So telling that demon to defeat the army will always result in the armies complete and total mutilation.

Devils on the other side, those stuff are up their ally, and the behavior you described is a desirable one no? Otherwise you can clarify to kill them if you don't want surrenders or you want the dragon dead.

See, the actual problem is that as long as the creature is Intelligent, it really does not matter what their 'natural behavior' is: you have now cast Geas/Quest on the creature and it will almost guaranteed desire to bring ruin and destruction to you specifically more than anyone else for trying to command it.

My bad, I meant "help me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc." or "Do your best" or whatever. That way he has to actively make you stronger by making you richer, getting you fortresses, getting you an army, etc, while avoiding anything that will cause you to bite off more than you could chew, like being targetted by every nation in the region, or by celestials, etc.

The spell only makes the creature try, not succeed, in the manner they think can achieve the result. "help me become the most powerful being in faerun/eberron/etc." and the creature teleports you into the largest settlement in the setting and names you de-facto overlord of the area. To him, you now have the most 'power' of anyone in the setting. It then leaves.

Destroy that army in the way I want you to. Please consult the telepathic link to understand my feelings and desires on the situation.

Even if you were to somehow stick this set of commands on such a creature, there are simple ways to abuse this. Firstly: you are mentally linked to a demon, good luck keeping your sanity in check for any period of time. Even if the mental link path is only so the demon can know your thoughts: it has access to your ideas and thoughts and can use them against you. Soon enough, unless you have stupid amazing amounts of willpower, your thoughts and actions would slowly be influenced by the demon.

Secondly: Like already said by someone else, it only takes a single millisecond of slip-up to screw this completely: Get angry at an ally over a bit of an argument: Whoops, you wanted them dead for a moment. Become momentarily depressed?: Whoops, I wanted to die for a moment. Think of possibilities that you do not want to happen?: Whoops, the demon read your thoughts and made it happen anyway. Que the insanity rolls for having to keep your thoughts in PERFECT order all of the time.

The simple problem is this: the spell does not and cannot force the creature you cast Geas/Quest on to follow the intent of a request, only attempt to solve it. And by casting the spell on an unwilling creature you almost automatically make it want to subvert and distort your intent while punishing you in terrible ways.

Renen

2014-12-23, 02:28 PM

You also can't control your feelings. Not fully.

All that demon has to do is make you want to die. Just for a second, just a little. And because you want it, even for a moment, even though you've said nothing, it gets communicated on that telepathic wavelength.

And then he's simply following orders.

And if you don't think a demon can make you feel a desire for self-destruction, even for a second, without laying a hand on you, you really haven't thought much about demons. Which, frankly, is probably healthy.

Well, 2 things that may save me
1) suppliment everything with an actual word command, that ends in "consult mental link"
2) if we assume that the link is always active and its always listening to my orders through it, it would know that I dont desire it to "make me feel desire for self destruction"

Red Fel

2014-12-23, 02:39 PM

Well, 2 things that may save me
1) suppliment everything with an actual word command, that ends in "consult mental link"
2) if we assume that the link is always active and its always listening to my orders through it, it would know that I dont desire it to "make me feel desire for self destruction"

But these two things only work while you're conscious of them. You can't supplement every thought with a verbal command; thoughts come too freely and too quickly. And you may not want to feel self-destructive, but that only works up until you do feel self-destructive. And if anyone can inspire that, an Evil Outsider can.

That's the point. Entities that call the nastier parts of the Planes home have a tendency to hear what they want, and a tendency to get people to say what they want to hear. At least if you're relying only on speech, you can be cautious in your words. Thoughts are a step above instinct. If it can make you feel disgust, or sympathy, or self-loathing, or any number of emotions or thoughts that make you question yourself or your worth - if it can make you think those things, even just for a moment - it is at liberty to act on your thoughts before you even realize you have them.

Honestly, opening oneself telepathically to a demon is just a tactically unsound decision.

Renen

2014-12-23, 04:03 PM

But these two things only work while you're conscious of them. You can't supplement every thought with a verbal command; thoughts come too freely and too quickly. And you may not want to feel self-destructive, but that only works up until you do feel self-destructive. And if anyone can inspire that, an Evil Outsider can.

That's the point. Entities that call the nastier parts of the Planes home have a tendency to hear what they want, and a tendency to get people to say what they want to hear. At least if you're relying only on speech, you can be cautious in your words. Thoughts are a step above instinct. If it can make you feel disgust, or sympathy, or self-loathing, or any number of emotions or thoughts that make you question yourself or your worth - if it can make you think those things, even just for a moment - it is at liberty to act on your thoughts before you even realize you have them.

Honestly, opening oneself telepathically to a demon is just a tactically unsound decision.

I didnt mean supplement every thought with a verbal command. I meant supplement every verbal command with a thought. Meaning every time you DO give a command, you tell it to consult your feelings on the matter. So you can do all the rules lawyer stuff people did on last 4 pages, but since the demon knows EXACTLY what you mean, and how you want it done, and how you'd feel about it trying to circumvent it, it should work better.

For example lets take the following from page 2:

Then you'd better be extremely careful instructing a Pit Fiend to do anything at all, otherwise "to the best of your ability" = "maximum overkill."

You: "[Person] owes me money. Go get it from him."
Pit Fiend: *tracks down [Person], kills them and all potential witnesses, picks money off of their corpse*

The pit fiend would know that you want it to walk up to the person, feel menacing, and take the money with no physical harm. It would know that killing the person is bad, maiming the person is bad, and so on. Feelings and thoughts are much better at expressing your desire than words.

Addressing your second paragraph:
IF we do make it obey EVERY thought (which is not a good idea. Just supplement verbal commands with thoughts), even then it would know that it cant MAKE YOU FEEL ANYTHING. You keep making it sound like the beast would be able to go "hey, lets make my master feel crappy". If you DO have full mental link giving commands at all times, then there wouldnt be a single second where you seriously think anything similar to the following "Man, I really want my pet demon to make me feel crappy"

Flickerdart

2014-12-23, 04:16 PM

it should work better.
You really want much better assurance than that when dealing with a bound fiend.

Renen

2014-12-23, 05:36 PM

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 05:44 PM

Sith_Happens

2014-12-23, 06:50 PM

You really want much better assurance than that when dealing with a bound fiend.

Especially devils, whose very existence is built upon being evil lawyers.

GreenZ

2014-12-23, 07:36 PM

How would you circumvent this then? Because basically any attempt of a fiend to do anything except obeying my commands to the letter would be going against my wishes. And "my wishes" are made crystal clear when you can see all my thoughts, concepts, and ideas.

The problem is simple: The spell does not make the fiend obey your wishes, only your single command. Anything outside of that single command; which only must be met to the letter, not the intent; can be manipulated or abused so long as you either do not know of the manipulation or do not understand it.

Allowing such a creature to know your thoughts is not only asking them to abuse the spell, but to know your exact desires and wants; Lawful Evil creatures are adept at tempting creatures with their desires, and you have given it free access.

It will manipulate you slowly and meticulously, giving you more than you could ever possibly want while trying to make sure they 'serve you to the best of their ability'. It will not kill you or go against your word but will slowly act in ways to manipulate the world around you without you ever knowing.

Your desire to know will give you more knowledge than you can handle, your desire to act will bring more destruction than you could imagine, and your lusts will tempt you into hedonism and depravity beyond what you know now. Given the insight of a Fiend, you will slowly become mad with Ego or ID, losing the parts of you that help keep your own evils under control; your very desires will consume and punish you far more effectively than the Fiend itself ever could. You will look back upon your actions, even the best intended ones, and realize what disasters you have brought to the world: yet as you burn the world around you with every step, you will no longer be sure that you care because you will have everything that you desire. Eventually you will either give into your temptation, break bonds with the Fiend, or wish for a swift death.

If I can imagine such an outcome, think of how much more effective a creature who lives to fulfill this role can be.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-23, 08:15 PM

Especially devils, whose very existence is built upon being extra evil lawyers.

FIFY.

Without the "extra" "evil lawyer" is redundant. :smallbiggrin:

Renen

2014-12-23, 08:15 PM

So... when you give it the first absolute command, you already have the mental link and say

"I want you to obey my every spoken command while checking the mental link for clarification, including in this case."

So it would have to do things exactly how you want them done, with no deviation. Heck, your next command could be as ambiguous as you want.

"Dont do anything that will annoy me"

It then gets a loooooong list via the mental link of exactly what will annoy you. The list includes but isnt limited to:
1) Tempting you in any way
2) Making you wish you were dead
3) Wearing a pink speedo in your presence

Or you could tell it that you want it to use your moral compass for all of it's actions Kinda like "What would my master do"

And if the generic answer is (again) "but they are super evil rules lawyers". Then my counter argument is: "I am a Malconvoker" the guy who specifically knows how to make them demons be my unwilling and very pissed off slaves.

zergling.exe

2014-12-23, 09:10 PM

Sith_Happens

2014-12-23, 09:14 PM

Ooooooor you could use the Planar Binding spell by itself to achieve the same result with less danger of being screwed over:

You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell.

If "offering anything in return" isn't up your alley you just debuff its modifier into oblivion before stating your demands.

Renen

2014-12-23, 09:18 PM

I think the visual novel Fate/Stay Night has a good basis for what would happen if you used Geas/Quest to command absolute obedience of a creature. In the prologue Tohsaka uses her command spell (essentially Geas with power boost to the Servant) to command her Servant to "Obey my commands." The result is "I respect my Master's commands." Despite using a spell of Absolute Obedience, when used for such a command it became nearly meaningless. The only thing that made the Servant obey all the commands (like cleaning the living room) was the penalties for not doing so.

But there the magic was totally different. A broad command just made the servant feel tired and weak if they dont obey, while a specific one made them break the laws of reality and magic, like teleporting without error and instantly, or similar feats.

zergling.exe

2014-12-23, 09:27 PM

But there the magic was totally different. A broad command just made the servant feel tired and weak if they dont obey, while a specific one made them break the laws of reality and magic, like teleporting without error and instantly, or similar feats.

The point was that the more specific the command the more effective the magic, and the less specific the command the more meaningless it was. Thus telling your Servant to obey you with the Command Spell is a waste because of how little effect it normally has, normally it doesn't even do what it does to Archer.

Renen

2014-12-23, 09:29 PM

Susano-wo

2014-12-23, 09:44 PM

zergling.exe

2014-12-23, 09:49 PM

My point was that its a completely different system of magic in FSN.
And heck, that magic system is constantly broken in numerous ways, starting from the s*** Shiro does, and ending with s*** Gilgamesh does.

Let's come at this from a different angle, okay? You are saying that if you use Geas to give the order "Obey me" then every command you give them is also a Geas, as they have to obey every command you give them or suffer penalties. So now you have turned one 6th level spell into infinite 6th level spells for CL days.

Edit: Also I don't really count the other differences. Solely by the Command Spell it is an epic level tatoo of some kind of Geas that can produce physics shattering effects, and being to broad makes it useless.

Renen

2014-12-23, 10:00 PM

You are saying that if you use Geas to give the order "Obey me" then every command you give them is also a Geas, as they have to obey every command you give them or suffer penalties. So now you have turned one 6th level spell into infinite 6th level spells for CL days.

Actually yes.
This guy has an at will mindrape/Geas:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330084835/villains/images/1/12/3400292-lelouch-1-.png

I always wondered by he didnt always just order people to obey him. Because the few times that he did, they actually did obey... perfectly.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-23, 11:10 PM

something I'm pretty sure has not been covered: You can Geas something into one service. 1. not one command, one service. So, "Obey me!" nope. not a service. "Be my slave!" nope, a state of existence/legality. "guard me fox X time" That seems legit, though again, its not mind control, and aside from the guarding the being can do just about anything else to subvert your desires(such as teleporting in minions who can teleport them out (or trap them somehow, so they cannot actually help you as said friends kill you, etc etc)

Be a waiter for your restaurant for 10000000 years is a service, so likewise, be my bodyguard for a day, for a year, for 100000 years, indefinately, etc. is a service. Change bodyguard or waiter to slave and there ya go.

If you want to get that technical with RAW, it says you place a magical command to carry out some service. Not one service, not a service, some service. Being your right hand man, slave, waiter, butler, lawyer, mule, etc. are all services.

I don't see why so many people have a problem with people trying to dominate creatures. Dominate person is a level 5 spell, geas is a level 6 spell with 10minute cast time. Suggestion in the PHB says you can make a dragon your b*tch, charm can make someone your b*tch, dominate is just the easiest, best, and most powerful and still rarely worth it since so many things are immune.

I've also read that pit fiends serve mortals as their masters. The exact lore was like, pit fiends are very patient, and immortal, so they serve a mortal wizard who enslaves them, slowly corrupting them, etc., and after a 100 years, the wizard becomes his lemure.

Ooooooor you could use the Planar Binding spell by itself to achieve the same result with less danger of being screwed over:

If "offering anything in return" isn't up your alley you just debuff its modifier into oblivion before stating your demands.

Unreasonable commands are never agreed to. Note the word command, but despite that, a lot of DMs say working for you for free is an unreasonable command, so additional cheapskate methods were sought in my group. My DM is a huge stickler on this "unreasonable command" issue, along with Kelb.

Vhaidara

2014-12-23, 11:33 PM

Be a waiter for your restaurant for 10000000 years is a service, so likewise, be my bodyguard for a day, for a year, for 100000 years, indefinately, etc. is a service. Change bodyguard or waiter to slave and there ya go.

And slaves rebel. Like, constantly. They also run away, and they misinterpret orders given.

If you want to get that technical with RAW, it says you place a magical command to carry out some service. Not one service, not a service, some service. Being your right hand man, slave, waiter, butler, lawyer, mule, etc. are all services.

Yes, some service. Not services.

I don't see why so many people have a problem with people trying to dominate creatures. Dominate person is a level 5 spell, geas is a level 6 spell with 10minute cast time. Suggestion in the PHB says you can make a dragon your b*tch, charm can make someone your b*tch, dominate is just the easiest, best, and most powerful and still rarely worth it since so many things are immune.

Because Dominate Monster, the spell you are trying to replicate, is a 9th level spell. You are trying to do the job of a 9th with a 6th.

I've also read that pit fiends serve mortals as their masters. The exact lore was like, pit fiends are very patient, and immortal, so they serve a mortal wizard who enslaves them, slowly corrupting them, etc., and after a 100 years, the wizard becomes his lemure.

...This is a point that people have been making for several pages. Repeatedly.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 12:10 AM

Because Dominate Monster, the spell you are trying to replicate, is a 9th level spell. You are trying to do the job of a 9th with a 6th.

How can geas replicate dominate monster when it has a cast time of 10 minutes, and is language dependent? You got a level 2 spell suggestion that can make a guy dominated for 1hour/cl. "Do what he says, the super intelligent wizards knows what's best for you." So... a level 2 spell that grants total control over a creature is ok but a level 6 spell that has a 10minute casting time isn't?

If you really want to get RAW technical,

to refrain from some action or course of activity

so there you go. To refrain from disobeying my orders. Course of activity is defying me, so geas is refraining that, he has to not defy me, ergo, do what I say.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions
instructions. the s at the end of instructions. By RAW I can put as many instructions in the geas as I want.

If the instructions involve some
More s at the end of instructions. Another quote with an s in the instructions.

A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:
More s after instructions

I can place as many instructions as I want into the magical command of the geas that makes him refrain from defying me and in the instructions I give him I clearly specify subverting me is defying me, along with a million other instructions that can fill 100 textbooks to ensure the spell knows exactly what I mean.

Milo v3

2014-12-24, 12:21 AM

georgie_leech

2014-12-24, 01:52 AM

Because he doesn't like mindless slaves.... :smallconfused:

Also, not d20's geas, and thus irrelevant. I mean, he breaks one of the only absolute restrictions of geas as his first command.

D20: Cannot compel a creature to kill itself.

Code Geass: "Die!" "Happily your highness!"

Renen

2014-12-24, 01:59 AM

Oh, you can compel something to kill itself. Just not with any of the lower spells.

Personally, I think Geass is just at will (but once per person) mindrape.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 02:00 AM

Oh, you can compel something to kill itself. Just not with any of the lower spells.

Personally, I think Geass is just at will (but once per person) mindrape.

With permanent duration

Renen

2014-12-24, 02:02 AM

Actually duration isnt permanent. Its shown to last around... err 2 months or so?

Troacctid

2014-12-24, 02:29 AM

How can geas replicate dominate monster when it has a cast time of 10 minutes, and is language dependent? You got a level 2 spell suggestion that can make a guy dominated for 1hour/cl. "Do what he says, the super intelligent wizards knows what's best for you." So... a level 2 spell that grants total control over a creature is ok but a level 6 spell that has a 10minute casting time isn't?

If you really want to get RAW technical,

to refrain from some action or course of activity

so there you go. To refrain from disobeying my orders. Course of activity is defying me, so geas is refraining that, he has to not defy me, ergo, do what I say.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions
instructions. the s at the end of instructions. By RAW I can put as many instructions in the geas as I want.

If the instructions involve some
More s at the end of instructions. Another quote with an s in the instructions.

A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:
More s after instructions

I can place as many instructions as I want into the magical command of the geas that makes him refrain from defying me and in the instructions I give him I clearly specify subverting me is defying me, along with a million other instructions that can fill 100 textbooks to ensure the spell knows exactly what I mean.

You can geas a creature to obey your commands. They'll be compelled to obey. Unlike dominate, they can then attempt to subvert those commands if you leave in a loophole for them to exploit. Maybe you're clever enough to close all the loopholes. Maybe you're not. If you're willing to play that game, good on you, you might get dominate monster at a lower level than usual. If you make a mistake and it blows up in your face, well, you knew the risks when you signed up.

Maybe the DM plays the geased character as submissive, going along with what you want them to do. Maybe the DM tries to subvert you at every turn. Maybe they vary their tactics based on the intelligence and personality of the target. Any and all of these are entirely valid by RAW.

Renen

2014-12-24, 02:36 AM

Which is exactly why i suggest the mind link. You cant subvert if you know exactly what the order is, and its given in the form of feelings and ideas, instead of words that have double meanings.

Troacctid

2014-12-24, 02:41 AM

The problem with that is that you don't have a mental link with your DM, so in practice, you can't actually communicate your exact intentions any more than you could give the orders in the devil's native Infernal.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 02:45 AM

You can geas a creature to obey your commands. They'll be compelled to obey. Unlike dominate, they can then attempt to subvert those commands if you leave in a loophole for them to exploit. Maybe you're clever enough to close all the loopholes. Maybe you're not. If you're willing to play that game, good on you, you might get dominate monster at a lower level than usual. If you make a mistake and it blows up in your face, well, you knew the risks when you signed up.

Maybe the DM plays the geased character as submissive, going along with what you want them to do. Maybe the DM tries to subvert you at every turn. Maybe they vary their tactics based on the intelligence and personality of the target. Any and all of these are entirely valid by RAW.

That wasn't the issue when I posted that. The guy was saying you can't place the "obey me" instruction in the geas and was pulling RAW stuff.

I agree with everything you said, and what most people of this thread was saying.

The whole point of using mind-affecting spells on demons for me is to play the game dangerously. You get a playstyle that will end in your death upon a single mistake, while upon success, ya get to use demons on villains :D

The problem with that is that you don't have a mental link with your DM, so in practice, you can't actually communicate your exact intentions any more than you could give the orders in the devil's native Infernal.

Telepathic bond conveys "feelings", without words, so impossible to subvert, is this guy's argument, which I agree. I won't be using it though, no room on my sorcerer spell list.

ben-zayb

2014-12-24, 02:58 AM

Which is exactly why i suggest the mind link. You cant subvert if you know exactly what the order is, and its given in the form of feelings and ideas, instead of words that have double meanings.A problem that I can see with this is that most spells/powers that gives this sort of ability (Mindlink, Telepathic Bond, etc.) needs a willing creature. Do you use up your Geas command to make the devil a willing participant on this next spell? Do you waste a round or two using Suggestion or similar effects on a waiting fiend?

Of course, it's a non-issue if you have Telepathy (Su).

Belial_the_Leveler

2014-12-24, 04:19 AM

1) A language-dependant spell must be both heard and understood. (SRD, spell descriptors)

2) An outsider in a circle can easily start shouting too loudly to hear you, as a free action. (voluntarily failing their listen checks on anything you say)

Demons often shout obscenities at the summoner not only to insult them, but to also prevent them from;

a) Using any language-dependent magic shenanigans the demon has to hear.
b) Being heard when using the (broken) diplomacy/bluff rules.
c) Being heard when using bardic music.
d) Being heard when making deals as part of planar binding.

Do note that trying any shenanigans through a calling diagram other than just speaking will immediately break it. Also note that sufficiently clever powerful outsiders will get an immunity item, spell or feat for dimensional anchor if they're able so they could always teleport out of your magic circles.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 07:24 AM

2) An outsider in a circle can easily start shouting too loudly to hear you, as a free action. (voluntarily failing their listen checks on anything you say)

Or plug its ears, but this has already been addressed. A simple suggestion spell would make the guy stand still and receive the geas if he fails his will save.

Do note that trying any shenanigans through a calling diagram other than just speaking will immediately break it.

This is a house rule. The RAW clearly says you can cast dimensional anchor on the called outsider assuming it doesn't teleport away beforehand, ergo, any spell is castable on the called outsider without breaking the circle.

About your feats that counter dimensional anchor, please elaborate since this is the first time I heard of it :)

olelia

2014-12-24, 08:17 AM

Which is exactly why i suggest the mind link. You cant subvert if you know exactly what the order is, and its given in the form of feelings and ideas, instead of words that have double meanings.

Do you really want a mind link to a creature that has to accept all of your commands? I mean, think about that...but don't because anything might accidently get interpreted as a command. Man, I'm hungry...I wish someone would get me a sandwich.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-24, 08:26 AM

Or plug its ears, but this has already been addressed. A simple suggestion spell would make the guy stand still and receive the geas if he fails his will save.

Suggestion is -also- a language dependent enchantment (compulsion) effect. It has the exact same problems as geas with the refusing to listen and magic circle.

gogogome

2014-12-24, 08:29 AM

I definately won't allow this in my games. Free minions are too OP for me. At least summon monster creatures are half your CR.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 08:34 AM

Suggestion is -also- a language dependent enchantment (compulsion) effect. It has the exact same problems as geas with the refusing to listen and magic circle.

You can only block your ears after you succeed a suggestion. Roll initiative, on your turn cast suggestion. If it succeeds break the circle, if you rule magic circle that way. If the suggestion fails, the guy can now know what' you're up to and block his ears.

If you did this before on the outsider, he needs to win initiative before blocking his ears, because it's about who acts first. Does the outsider see you and know what you're up to since you did it to him once already, or do you cast it before he is aware?

This is where charm > suggestion + geas. You only get one shot ;D

Zaninel

2014-12-24, 12:07 PM

The biggest difference I can see between charm and geas is the target's attitude towards you.. If a creature really wanted to ignore the obey all my orders clause of a gaes they would just make it so they couldn't hear your orders. There are plenty of spells to do that and if all else fails most of them have claws that they could shove in their ear rupturing their eardrum, at that point they are free to do as they please. Getting dealt 3d6 damage isn't much of a problem for them hd considered so nothing would stop them from deafening themselves teleporting back to their native plane/away from you, potting their revenge and just waiting for the geas to end, healing back up then destroying you.

At least with charm it's more of an effect that they like you enough to fight for you and whatnot. And after the effect is over though they shouldn't be as hostile as those who just got geased. Charm also has the bonus that you can pantomime if the target can't hear you or otherwise understand you.

Renen

2014-12-24, 01:22 PM

Do you really want a mind link to a creature that has to accept all of your commands? I mean, think about that...but don't because anything might accidently get interpreted as a command. Man, I'm hungry...I wish someone would get me a sandwich.

And it will go get you that sandwitch. Because you "feel" like you want a sandwitch. You are kinda imagining a sandwitch in your head and desiring that specific sandwich. Its not poisoned, its not hexed, its very tasty. And no one died in the process of creating it.

I definately won't allow this in my games. Free minions are too OP for me. At least summon monster creatures are half your CR.
And I wont allow any character classes in my games, making everyone only play NPC classes. This is one of those discussions where you shouldnt bring in personal preferences in.

Vhaidara

2014-12-24, 02:07 PM

And it will go get you that sandwitch. Because you "feel" like you want a sandwitch. You are kinda imagining a sandwitch in your head and desiring that specific sandwich. Its not poisoned, its not hexed, its very tasty. And no one died in the process of creating it.

And every time you idly think "I want a sandwich", you go through that entire checklist?

And I wont allow any character classes in my games, making everyone only play NPC classes. This is one of those discussions where you shouldnt bring in personal preferences in.

Except that this getting shut down is far more likely than a GM deciding, mid campaign, that everyone is using NPC classes.

Flickerdart

2014-12-24, 02:28 PM

And it will go get you that sandwitch. Because you "feel" like you want a sandwitch. You are kinda imagining a sandwitch in your head and desiring that specific sandwich. Its not poisoned, its not hexed, its very tasty. And no one died in the process of creating it.
Here's the thing, though - that doesn't happen simultaneously. The sensation of hunger comes first, with the immediate follow-up of "I want a sandwich." It doesn't matter how quickly you can imagine the sandwich, it's not actualized until after you've had the desire, because your hunger is not for a specific sandwich, but for an abstract foodstuff that your conscious mind then transforms into first a sandwich, and then the specific sandwich you desire.

Nothing is stopping the demon from simply performing your order before you've finished lawyering it.

Renen

2014-12-24, 02:29 PM

And every time you idly think "I want a sandwich", you go through that entire checklist?

Sigh... my point is that EMOTIONALLY you know how you want that sandwich to happen. These are not surface thoughts (that can be read by low level spells). Its kinda like knowing the difference in asking a band for a loan vs asking mafia for a loan. I know the different risks even as I write this, but I dont actually make a long list of them. I just know that owing money to the mafia is bad for a number of reasons and shouldnt be done. So if I asked a demon to go get me a loan the demon would know that I mean a bank loan not a mafia loan.

georgie_leech

2014-12-24, 02:39 PM

Sigh... my point is that EMOTIONALLY you know how you want that sandwich to happen. These are not surface thoughts (that can be read by low level spells). Its kinda like knowing the difference in asking a band for a loan vs asking mafia for a loan. I know the different risks even as I write this, but I dont actually make a long list of them. I just know that owing money to the mafia is bad for a number of reasons and shouldnt be done. So if I asked a demon to go get me a loan the demon would know that I mean a bank loan not a mafia loan.

Do you actually consider whether the mafia is a valid option? Do you disregard the potential of getting it from a friend, or an enemy, or the God of Screwing-Over-People-Who-Get-Loans-From-It? Or do you just think "I need a loan?"

olelia

2014-12-24, 03:31 PM

Sigh... my point is that EMOTIONALLY you know how you want that sandwich to happen. These are not surface thoughts (that can be read by low level spells). Its kinda like knowing the difference in asking a band for a loan vs asking mafia for a loan. I know the different risks even as I write this, but I dont actually make a long list of them. I just know that owing money to the mafia is bad for a number of reasons and shouldnt be done. So if I asked a demon to go get me a loan the demon would know that I mean a bank loan not a mafia loan.

But see, emotionally transmitting is traditionally even worse of an idea. Stubbed your toe? Even if you didn't mean it you feel a sudden pang of anger at whatever caused it. *Ping* Demon smashes ground.

Troacctid

2014-12-24, 03:42 PM

Or just imagine what would happen if you got a song stuck in your head. Your devil might suddenly disappear for a week to go build you a home where the buffalo roam.

Renen

2014-12-24, 04:07 PM

Thats why you give verbal commands that end with "consult psychic link"

Flickerdart

2014-12-24, 04:39 PM

Thats why you give verbal commands that end with "consult psychic link"
>end with

Did I not just cover the problem with this?

Renen

2014-12-24, 06:03 PM

Nothing stopping me from giving it the order to always finish listening to me before starting to carry out orders...

It basically works like this:
You! Get me a sandwich. Please consult the mind link to know exactly how to go about this.

And at some point in the past, it has been given the order to finish listening to me, as not to ever start before I tell it to consult the link. Or heck, i just tell it to always consult the link for any verbal order I give. Non-verbal orders are not to be followed.

Milo v3

2014-12-24, 06:14 PM

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-24, 06:15 PM

Look, this is all pointless.

Either the spells work as intended, in which case you can easily lawyer them into eternal servitude ("Obey all instructions written on this paper to the best of your ability." being one of the myriad ways to do it) or the spells are totally worthless because they don't work as intended.

In the first case, you need to stop being lazy and start DMing with the expectation that players will attempt to (and succeed at getting) semi permanent, powerful, servants. In the second case you should just tell your players that getting such servants isn't allowed in your games and get on with your life, trying to rules lawyer it away is really just doing nothing more than telling the players to start being ***** about things.

Oh yeah, thematically binding devils and demons into long term slavery is something that Wizards and Sorcerers are supposed to do.

Worst case you have the PC make a Knowledge: Arcana, Craft: Binding Contract, or Profession: Lawyer check to see if they know how to close the loopholes and successfully bind the target.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 06:19 PM

Go tippy! I agree with everything he said. ESPECIALLY the part about wizards and sorcerers SUPPOSED to enslave demons long term.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-24, 07:39 PM

You can only block your ears after you succeed a suggestion. Roll initiative, on your turn cast suggestion. If it succeeds break the circle, if you rule magic circle that way. If the suggestion fails, the guy can now know what' you're up to and block his ears.

If you did this before on the outsider, he needs to win initiative before blocking his ears, because it's about who acts first. Does the outsider see you and know what you're up to since you did it to him once already, or do you cast it before he is aware?

This is where charm > suggestion + geas. You only get one shot ;D

Suggestion auto-fails if the given suggestion is "obviously harmful." Not "reasonable," "harmful." There's no way that a creature in a binding circle will not find such a suggestion harmful.

Then there's the fact that you're suggesting releasing it from the binding circle before you have the geas in place. It was already able to attack you with any ranged attacks at its disposal and now it can rush you too.

This reads more like a way to get mauled by a demon than to enslave one.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 07:53 PM

Suggestion auto-fails if the given suggestion is "obviously harmful." Not "reasonable," "harmful." There's no way that a creature in a binding circle will not find such a suggestion harmful.

Then there's the fact that you're suggesting releasing it from the binding circle before you have the geas in place. It was already able to attack you with any ranged attacks at its disposal and now it can rush you too.

This reads more like a way to get mauled by a demon than to enslave one.

You can get a guy to jump into a pool of acid because it's a refreshing dip (PHB). A suggestion saying accepting slavery is easier than fighting is well within the power of suggestion. After you cast the suggestion, throw some dirt on the circle. Assuming it's not a creature with an at-will protection from magic, it should work.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-24, 08:03 PM

You can get a guy to jump into a pool of acid because it's a refreshing dip (PHB). A suggestion saying accepting slavery is easier than fighting is well within the power of suggestion. After you cast the suggestion, throw some dirt on the circle. Assuming it's not a creature with an at-will protection from magic, it should work.

Reread suggestion. It doesn't care if what you say sounds reasonable if the suggestion is obviously harmful. In that case, which both of those are covered by, then it fails, period. The first of those doesn't even sound reasonable unless the creature is immune to acid for pete's sake.

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-24, 08:07 PM

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 08:13 PM

Reread suggestion. It doesn't care if what you say sounds reasonable if the suggestion is obviously harmful. In that case, which both of those are covered by, then it fails, period. The first of those doesn't even sound reasonable unless the creature is immune to acid for pete's sake.

a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter.

a suggestion that the spell being cast is actually a spell that gives god-like powers and that being the target of the spell would be awesome is another matter.

or to be more fitting to the scenario

a suggestion that the spell the wizard is planning to cast on you is actually a spell that gives god-like powers, so being the target of that spell would be awesome.

The PHB example clearly says you can change the character's judgement of what's harmful and what's not, or whether an object is acid or pure water.

So the guy could use his spellcraft check to identify its geas, but the suggestion says it's not, so...

I didn't word it perfectly, but you get the idea.

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-24, 08:17 PM

a suggestion that the spell being cast is actually a spell that gives god-like powers and that being the target of the spell would be awesome is another matter.

Most fiends worth binding have ranks in sense motive, spellcraft, or both. Good luck with that.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 08:23 PM

Most fiends worth binding have ranks in sense motive, spellcraft, or both. Good luck with that.

Those checks only come into play if you're trying to persuade them. This is a mind control spell. If you win all those checks then you won't need the spell.

Okay, "do not resist the next spell I cast on you or I'll torture you for 3 days then ask again."

Anything can sound reasonable with enough caveats.

A little less agressive; "do not resist the next spell I cast on you because you won't be able to stop it anyway and doing so will be easier on both of us."

:\

Did you change your mind?

Kelb_Panthera

2014-12-24, 10:36 PM

Those checks only come into play if you're trying to persuade them. This is a mind control spell. If you win all those checks then you won't need the spell.

You're lying to the creature. That's a bluff. Even if you successfully bluff it, its spellcraft could immediately tell that you're not casting the spell you said you were by identifying it as geas.

The spell doesn't make the creature stupid and fails -whenever- the suggestion becomes unreasonable or obviously harmful during its duration.

:\

Did you change your mind?

It'd been a while since I read the spell description. The first wouldn't work but the second one might.

The difference is that "accept this spell" or even "accept a geas" is a much, much different thing than "accept servitude under me." The latter is pretty universally harmful to the creature. While a geas can be a bit annoying, it isn't inherently harmful. Of course, when the geas' compelled behavior is "serve me" that will likely break the suggestion effect.

I do have to wonder though, what makes you think a creature that's likely to make a DC 16+ save is going to fail a DC 12+ save?

RoboEmperor

2014-12-24, 11:00 PM

I do have to wonder though, what makes you think a creature that's likely to make a DC 16+ save is going to fail a DC 12+ save?

Geas is no save, otherwise I don't know what DC16+ spell you're referring to.

As for the DC12, it wouldn't be a DC12. I'm a fan of heighten + spell foci. The strongest demon I bind is marilith, will+14. DC10+8(heightened)+2+6(casting state)+3(wondrous item) = 29. 29-14 = 15. So if the marilith rolls 14 or lower, I win, so I have a 70% chance of a suggestion going through. Without spell foci it's 60%, without heighten it's 30%, at which point you're better of spamming charm monster, and only if you're charisma is high, otherwise you can't stop the marilith from slaughtering your party, friendly npcs, etc.

The difference is that "accept this spell" or even "accept a geas" is a much, much different thing than "accept servitude under me." The latter is pretty universally harmful to the creature. While a geas can be a bit annoying, it isn't inherently harmful. Of course, when the geas' compelled behavior is "serve me" that will likely break the suggestion effect.

You specify the nature of the geas after you cast it. So "accept the spell", even if it breaks, won't stop your casting.

magicalmagicman

2014-12-25, 12:42 AM

Alternatively, just spam Hideous laughter. It's not language-dependent. Sure, the opponent gets a +4 to their will save, but once it succeeds, it can't block its ears so you can spam as many suggestions as you want for 1round/CL.

Then you can proceed with the geas.

And please don't say that the creature can't hear anything while laughing. I myself experienced torturous laughter at a long joke with multiple punchlines. I was literally on the floor, clutching my extremely painful ribs, unable to breath properly and begging the guy to stop while he went on with the joke.

torrasque666

2014-12-25, 12:46 AM

magicalmagicman

2014-12-25, 12:53 AM

All he has to do is laugh louder than you can speak. For several of these large powerful outsiders, I'm sure that's well within the realm of possibility.

By that logic I'd only accept balors, pit fiends, and the like since they only talk in capital letters, and are designed to shake the earth when they speak, at least that's my interpretation. DM interpretations may vary.

Any other outsiders, especially the humanoidish ones, or insect ones, or bird-like ones, I highly doubt it. They're laughing not screaming or shrieking.

Remember, if you can have a conversation with a friend next to you at a night club or a rock concert, then the outsider has to laugh ungodly loud, but not enough to do sonic damage.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-25, 01:24 AM

How about this suggestion?

"The wizard is just casting spells on himself. Completely ignore him, he's not worth your time."

This would make the outsider ignore the wizard for 1hour/CL, more than enough time to place the geas. Because wizard is ignored, outsider won't pay attention to the wizard's verbal spell and won't even bother with the spellcraft check.

Or try to emulate solipsism

"The wizard is just an illusion placed here to torture your mind. Just completely ignore it, you're too smart for them"

This is fun :D

Flickerdart

2014-12-25, 01:45 AM

Either the spells work as intended, in which case you can easily lawyer them into eternal servitude ("Obey all instructions written on this paper to the best of your ability." being one of the myriad ways to do it) or the spells are totally worthless because they don't work as intended.
The intent of the spells is "recruit an outsider for a single service." They are not worthless simply because you really, really want them to create eternal servants instead.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-25, 02:03 AM

The intent of the spells is "recruit an outsider for a single service." They are not worthless simply because you really, really want them to create eternal servants instead.

The problem is, one service is really, really easy to lawyer out of.

"Help me clear this dungeon"
"Ok"
*Does nothing*
"Why aren't you helping me clear this dungeon?"
"I'm helping by not splattering you across the floor"
*Geas breaks because he "helped"
*Wizard dies

How do you combat this? You need to add more instructions to be clearer. A LOT more instructions, which is why "do nothing except obey my will/commands/instructions to the best of your ability" is the only way you can get the evil lawyer to do anything worthwhile.

Tell me how you would phrase the "help me clear this dungeon"?

A plain "clear out this dungeon" could have the outsider could just tell everyone inside you're outside and they'll swarm you.

A "guard me" will end in your imprisonment beneath the earth forever.

Troacctid

2014-12-25, 03:31 AM

On the contrary, if you're trying to force them into indefinite service, they're strongly incentivized to weasel out of it as best they can because they have nothing to lose. But if you only ask one service of them, their incentive is to complete that service and end the geas as quickly as possible. And if you begin the relationship by trying to loophole your way into more service than you're normally entitled to, you're setting yourself up for the other guy to do the same--it's like bringing a knife to a fistfight.

SiuiS

2014-12-25, 04:55 AM

Tell it to obey you.
Then tell it to stand still, and get mindraped by you.

Or actually I wonder... What would happen if you tell it to love you (emotionally, cuz I dont wanna picture any summoned creature loving you physically.)?

Bad things. I actually play this up with familiars, that empathic connection is a two way bond and the people who have succubi familiars are crazy for a reason.

Love is not always a good thing. Love is sometimes jealousy, possession, abuse, ownership, and control.

EDIT: To it loving you, do you realized how messed up the love of a LE creature can be? And even if it's normalish love, do you want that thing to o the dirty with you? It's probably got like buzzsaws on it or something.

More marilith for me then <_<

Thats why you say "Obey me" or even better, "Please me with your service/obedience"

Ha ha ha

But who cares? If it loves me emotionally, I just tell it that sex isnt a thing in this relationship. Sure the demon will suffer w/o being in my glorious naked presence, but will still follow me like a puppy on a leash trying to make me pet it.

This is a silly inference. A forceful, wicked and selfish creature who Rose to eternal power and immortality by forcing it's will to be more important than the will of others is not going to respect your boundaries, sport. After all, "you'll come around in time. I just need to show you how much my love means. I'll kill everyone who gets in the way. I'll stop anything you do that keeps you away from me. You'll come to love me back. Even if I have to trick you into evil deeds and take your soul to he with me. We will spend eternity together, darling. I will show you such wicked pleasures~! My love for you is fierce. And hot, like a branding iron. Come, let me show you... And mark you as my own. For all to see."

Vhaidara

2014-12-25, 09:00 AM

The problem is, one service is really, really easy to lawyer out of.

"Help me clear this dungeon"
"Ok"
*Does nothing*
"Why aren't you helping me clear this dungeon?"
"I'm helping by not splattering you across the floor"
*Geas breaks because he "helped"
*Wizard dies

How do you combat this? You need to add more instructions to be clearer. A LOT more instructions, which is why "do nothing except obey my will/commands/instructions to the best of your ability" is the only way you can get the evil lawyer to do anything worthwhile.

Tell me how you would phrase the "help me clear this dungeon"?

A plain "clear out this dungeon" could have the outsider could just tell everyone inside you're outside and they'll swarm you.

A "guard me" will end in your imprisonment beneath the earth forever.

This is because you are trying to use Geas on a mega-lawyer. The intent of Geas is similar to Mark of Justice as used on Belkar: To compel people to not do a certain thing, or to do a certain thing, over a long course of time.
Example:
My group, early on, captured a wizard who was an apprentice to a cult of Talona. We found the local mega-wizard (friend of a friend and a hater of Talon) who then Geased the guy to help us bring down the cult. Since he was our level and there were five of us, he knew we could beat the crap out of him if he did the whole "I'm helping by staying out of the way" schtick. We even did once, when he did pull that.

The intent of Geas is not to be used on Outsiders to allow you to weasel out of paying for Planar Binding costs. In fact, as a point of order, not getting payment for services would be highly out of character and very dangerous to such an outsider, since if they return no richer, they are now a fool in the Hells. That is NOT a good place to be.

RolkFlameraven

2014-12-25, 01:30 PM

I might be running off old info here, but isn't the point of calling outsiders to be bargaining with them? That you CAN'T FORCE them to do anything unless you know their True Name? Isn't that the whole point of True Names? To have a demon/devil slave that has to do what you say but hates your guts and helps your enemies to kill you if it can?

Charming, Geasing or other such things shouldn't be able to passed either the circle or the outsiders own protections. If it could bargaining wouldn't be a thing. Besides will someone explain to me just how 'spam x spell until it works, then brake the circle' even works? How the hell do you KNOW a charm or something worked while it is in the circle in the first place?

If the circle, once turned inwards, doesn't offer protection like some seem to think, well if you call up an Outsider and try to use charm or suggestion or some such to make it stand there as you cast Geas what is to stop it from acting like it is under the effects of your spell and then after five or six minutes of casting it just implodes you?

Or using its SLA to summon others of its kind to show up and then THEY kill you? After all 'to the best of your ability' would be using that skill even if they don't like to use it on their own.

Flickerdart

2014-12-25, 02:27 PM

Tell me how you would phrase the "help me clear this dungeon"?
That's not what Geas is for, but I'll humour you. "Kill all the creatures inhabiting this dungeon" works perfectly fine; since your party meets no definition of "inhabiting" you're all safe. "I am here to kill the creatures in the dungeon; protect me to make sure nothing interferes with this mission" is an acceptable wording for an open-ended task - being imprisoned is definitely interfering, but so are things like monsters trying to kill you.

Sith_Happens

2014-12-25, 03:36 PM

Actually yes.
This guy has an at will mindrape/Geas:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330084835/villains/images/1/12/3400292-lelouch-1-.png

I always wondered by he didnt always just order people to obey him. Because the few times that he did, they actually did obey... perfectly.

He didn't start doing that until after his ability powered up to the point of

working on the collective subconscious of humanity.
So it's likely that until then he in fact couldn't have.

Unreasonable commands are never agreed to. Note the word command, but despite that, a lot of DMs say working for you for free is an unreasonable command, so additional cheapskate methods were sought in my group. My DM is a huge stickler on this "unreasonable command" issue, along with Kelb.

Just tell your would-be minion that it's free to work towards its own goals/agendas during any free time you end up giving it. There's nothing an Outsider likes more than an excuse to be on the Material Plane.

And that's if you're not asking it to do something that it can derive some intrinsic benefit from. Ask a demon to help you kill lots of things and/or hinder an organization of some sort, for example, and you're quite likely to be allowed the Charisma check.

Reread suggestion. It doesn't care if what you say sounds reasonable if the suggestion is obviously harmful. In that case, which both of those are covered by, then it fails, period. The first of those doesn't even sound reasonable unless the creature is immune to acid for pete's sake.

The point of that sentence is that if the Suggestee can't tell the difference between a pool of acid and a pool of [insert harmless substance], you can lie about which of the two you're telling it to jump into and it will subsequently comply.

The intent of the spells is "recruit an outsider for a single service." They are not worthless simply because you really, really want them to create eternal servants instead.

You can definitely bind an Outsider into being your servant in the general sense, just not for longer than a day/CL unless you can come up with some non-arbitrary, time-independent endpoint that it will nonetheless take the intended amount of time to reach. Tippy, of course, I'm sure has long since compiled a list of such conditions.:smallwink:

Flickerdart

2014-12-25, 09:35 PM

You can definitely bind an Outsider into being your servant in the general sense, just not for longer than a day/CL unless you can come up with some non-arbitrary, time-independent endpoint that it will nonetheless take the intended amount of time to reach. Tippy, of course, I'm sure has long since compiled a list of such conditions.:smallwink:
No, he already posted his "solution"; it was just to say "your servitude will last a bajillion years" which doesn't actually work. Remember that the terms need to be fulfilled by the creature's own power, severely limiting the conditions you can actually place.

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-26, 03:07 AM

No, he already posted his "solution"; it was just to say "your servitude will last a bajillion years" which doesn't actually work. Remember that the terms need to be fulfilled by the creature's own power, severely limiting the conditions you can actually place.

The terms can be fulfilled by the creatures own power. Just standing there doing nothing would fulfill the terms. Nothing that you can call with Planar Binding can die of old age.

Flickerdart

2014-12-26, 10:49 AM

The terms can be fulfilled by the creatures own power. Just standing there doing nothing would fulfill the terms. Nothing that you can call with Planar Binding can die of old age.
Time goes on at exactly the same rate whether or not the creature does anything. That's not "by its own power."

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-26, 11:15 PM

Time goes on at exactly the same rate whether or not the creature does anything. That's not "by its own power."

If you want to argue that then you have to agree that you can't order a creature to "Kill that dude.". Seeing as the creature can't complete that objective without the target being capable of dying.

As I said, either you treat abilities like this in the manner that was intended, in which case you can easily get permanent servants, or you make them totally and completely worthless. Those are the only two RAW possibilities.

Troacctid

2014-12-26, 11:27 PM

If you want to argue that then you have to agree that you can't order a creature to "Kill that dude.". Seeing as the creature can't complete that objective without the target being capable of dying.

I don't see the equivalence. It's clearly possible within RAW for one creature to, through its own actions, kill another creature. When the mark dies, the geas ends, badabing badaboom.

RoboEmperor

2014-12-26, 11:31 PM

If you want to argue that then you have to agree that you can't order a creature to "Kill that dude.". Seeing as the creature can't complete that objective without the target being capable of dying.

As I said, either you treat abilities like this in the manner that was intended, in which case you can easily get permanent servants, or you make them totally and completely worthless. Those are the only two RAW possibilities.

After much pulling RAW to prove tippy wrong, I gotta say, he's right.

Consider this case:
"Guard this." The creature obviously can't complete it with his own actions, so it's open-ended.

"Guard this for 100years", I thought it was open ended, but here's the thing. Any time he spends not guarding it won't count, so he must guard it and fill up the hours.

This was the scenario that brought me over the tippy's side.
Consider this magic door. On the otherside is a crown. You tell the creature to fetch the crown, he does it, and it's not open ended.

Now what if the magic door requires someone to stand in front of it for 100 years for it to open? The creature must stand in front of the door for 100years, as in fill up the hours, to open the door and finally get the crown.

We all know if the task is "build a massive tower" and if that takes a 100 years, it's not open ended. The above scenario shows waiting for a 100 years is not open ended, so guarding a chest for a 100 years, filling up the hours, is not open ended. He has to fill up the 100 years to complete it. It's a direct effort on his part to complete a task, and preventing him from guarding will prevent him from filling up the hours and completing the task.

Another example is, move this pile of sand one grain at a time 1 mile away. The creature then spends forever moving back and forth carrying only 1 grain of sand. That's the same thing as guarding something 1 second at a time.

Having said that, if I were a DM I wouldn't allow this. I would at least make the guy have to renew the geas every day/CL.

But yeah, by RAW, I guess I agree with Tippy now. Definitely won't push it on other DMs though. A renewable slave for 1day/CL is more than enough XD.

Emperor Tippy

2014-12-26, 11:39 PM

I don't see the equivalence. It's clearly possible within RAW for one creature to, through its own actions, kill another creature. When the mark dies, the geas ends, badabing badaboom.

Except it isn't. That requires that 1) the targeted creature can be killed, 2) that the targeted creature exists.

There is literally nothing different between "stand here until ten thousand years have passed" and "Kill that dude". All a creature has to do to accomplish the first objective is stand there, eventually success is achieved through the creatures own power to stand in one spot for ten thousand years.

Flickerdart is arguing that since the creature in question does not have the power to control time, it can't achieve its objective under its own power.

If you accept that argument then there is absolutely nothing that you can actually order a creature under geas to do because it is all dependent on other things existing.

Troacctid

2014-12-27, 12:04 AM

Except it isn't. That requires that 1) the targeted creature can be killed, 2) that the targeted creature exists.

There is literally nothing different between "stand here until ten thousand years have passed" and "Kill that dude". All a creature has to do to accomplish the first objective is stand there, eventually success is achieved through the creatures own power to stand in one spot for ten thousand years.

Flickerdart is arguing that since the creature in question does not have the power to control time, it can't achieve its objective under its own power.

If you accept that argument then there is absolutely nothing that you can actually order a creature under geas to do because it is all dependent on other things existing.

If the targeted creature doesn't exist or can't be killed, then obviously the subject of the geas can't kill it under its own power. They'll be compelled to try, they'll fail, and the spell will expire after its normal duration.

Either way, by RAW, the spell won't last more than one day/level, because "or until discharged" in the duration line means "whichever comes first." Unlike spells such as polymorph any object or mark of sin, there's no mechanism in the spell to extend the duration, so even if you give them a clear task to fulfill, the spell runs out of energy and fizzles out if it takes too long.

Flickerdart

2014-12-27, 01:00 AM

If you accept that argument then there is absolutely nothing that you can actually order a creature under geas to do because it is all dependent on other things existing.
Uh...yeah. If you order a creature to kill something that doesn't exist, guess what? That's not a task it can complete under its own power.

This is the difference between a steam ship and a piece of driftwood travelling from the same start to the same destination. Only one of the two can be said to have gotten there under its own power, even though it's obvious that both of them did get there.

Renen

2014-12-27, 01:26 AM

Time goes on at exactly the same rate whether or not the creature does anything. That's not "by its own power."

But the whole point of the command is for the creature to stand in a spot for some time. Not just have the time pass in general. So it can stand somewhere under its own power, and the time just notes how long the creature's "power" has to be exerted.

Flickerdart

2014-12-27, 01:57 PM

But the whole point of the command is for the creature to stand in a spot for some time. Not just have the time pass in general. So it can stand somewhere under its own power, and the time just notes how long the creature's "power" has to be exerted.
Mhm. Cool, cool.

Do me a favour. Open your Player's Handbook, turn to page 235, and read the example given for open-ended task.

Also, fun fact: The "if you ask for protection, the geased creature throws you into a nice safe dungeon" is actually written in the spell description as an example of subversion, and clearly part of how it's supposed to work.

Susano-wo

2014-12-27, 02:19 PM

Yeah, its pretty rich to say that trying to stretch a service into bodyguard for X-ty thousand years(I originally thought this cheap but legitimate, but thew more I think about it, the more I think that that's not a service.) is just the way its intended to work.People aren't trying to lawyer it down to a more limited version, they are trying to prevent lawyering it up to over 9000.

And aside from that, its a false dichotomy to say "either let your players do whatever they want what's intended with Geas, or ban it. Its perfectly reasonable, even with your interpretation of the parameters if Geas, for the GM to say, "no practically indefinite servitude," and expect the players to not try to get around that.