WotC Website: Swiftblade

[Fax Celestis]

The Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) was put on the WotC website this morning. What do you think of it? I can see some potential for twinkery, as it brings back a bit of the old 3.0 haste, but I also see potential for awesome in it too.

[Bears With Lasers]

The loss of four caster levels makes completing it not much of an option. A two-level dip would, however, net you (at the cost of taking Dodge/Lightning Reflexes) Quicken Spell for +3 rather than +4 spell levels, and +Casting Stat Mod to Initiative (which gets to be as much as +13).
I suppose going all the way to Blurred Acceleration could be worth it, since you'd still have some ninth level spells at 20th.

Also, this requirement? "Special: The candidate must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level or higher spell slots to exclusively cast haste."
That kills it.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, that is a tough req. Still, though, the two-level dip is pretty sweet.

[marjan]

Nice class. It could be interesting to combine Wizard/Swashbuckler with it. Though I wouldn't take it for primary caster. Maybe even Warblade would be good for it to.

[marjan]

Yes the special requirement can be bit too much, but even third level isn't bad. It doesn't lose CL and it gives you some mobility.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Weird. I don't quite understand the special requirement though.

[marjan]

You cannot cast anything aside from haste using 3rd lvl slots for entire level before taking this class.

[Bears With Lasers]

Third level *and over*. So no spells higher than second level that aren't haste.

[Seatbelt]

I think that's a really cool flavor compliment. Your character is obsessed with moving super fast, and then he discovers hiden talents for it.

[Were-Sandwich]

So, its good for when starting at high levels, when you just hand wave that away.

[marjan]

Third level *and over*. So no spells higher than second level that aren't haste.

Even uglier then I thought.:smallmad: Still if you take it as soon as possible you won't have spells higher then lvl3.

[Saph]

The loss of four caster levels makes completing it not much of an option. A two-level dip would, however, net you (at the cost of taking Dodge/Lightning Reflexes) Quicken Spell for +3 rather than +4 spell levels, and +Casting Stat Mod to Initiative (which gets to be as much as +13)

I would have thought if you're taking two levels you might as well take three: you don't lose any extra caster levels and get +1 BAB, a couple of save bonuses, and a kind-of-useful ability.

But that 'only cast haste' prerequisite is just bizarre. Does any player really want to spend the first round of every single combat casting the same spell over and over again?

- Saph

[Person_Man]

The entry requirements are insane. 3 feats, two of which are very weak, plus the whole "exclusively cast Haste" thing.

Haste is nifty, but the main benefit, gaining an extra attack, is screwed by the caster requirement and mediocre BAB of the class.

If Haste was on the Hexblade or Duskblade spell list it might be a good idea for them, but its not. A Beguiler/Swiftblade might be a good idea if Swiftblade had more Skill points or caster levels, but it doesn't.

I don't see anyone using this. Great idea, poor execution.

[EvilElitest]

Might work ok for a bard though
from,
EE

[Fax Celestis]

The entry requirements are insane. 3 feats, two of which are very weak, plus the whole "exclusively cast Haste" thing.

Haste is nifty, but the main benefit, gaining an extra attack, is screwed by the caster requirement and mediocre BAB of the class.

If Haste was on the Hexblade or Duskblade spell list it might be a good idea for them, but its not. A Beguiler/Swiftblade might be a good idea if Swiftblade had more Skill points or caster levels, but it doesn't.

I don't see anyone using this. Great idea, poor execution.

Melee-focused Battle Sorceror, maybe, or a unoptimized Cleric with the Time domain.

[Krellen]

I really like this class. In all honestly, the sheer number of full spellcasting-progressing PrCs is one of the main problems with D&D. The Swiftblade is a great class for a Fighter/Sorcerer, or a Battle Sorcerer.

9th level spells are overpowered, and losing them should be something most DMs aim for their players doing anyway. No 9th level spell is required to defeat any high-level opponent (short of the Tarrasque, but lack of 9th level spells just makes him more deserving his CR.)

So in short: Nice flavour, great powers, and well balanced. Good class.

[marjan]

short of the Tarrasque, but lack of 9th level spells just makes him more deserving his CR.

And CR X means that party of four level X characters has no way to defeat that enemy?:smallconfused:

[Merlin the Tuna]

Well, the Haste requirement isn't so bad for a Sorcerer. After all, when they get a new tier of spells, they only get one spell known anyway. Given that metamagic isn't terribly popular at level 6, that's somewhat automatic. The only problem there is that the feat requirements scream "take Fighter levels!" whereas the Sorcerer part screams "take Paladin levels!" for Divine Grace.

So... Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8... 16th level Sorcerer casting, BAB +16. Not too shabby, but it's not exactly going to usher in a new era of gish-building.

[Krellen]

And CR X means that party of four level X characters has no way to defeat that enemy?:smallconfused:
Defeat <> Kill. A party without 9th level spells can still beat the Tarrasque into submission, imprison it somewhere, lock it away. If you played the old Darksun video games - particularly the second, Wake of the Ravager, you know the sort of situation I'm talking about.

It's supposed to be the Tarrasque. It shouldn't be killed.

[Innis Cabal]

its very...gimmiky, but i like it alot, certianly interesting

[marjan]

Defeat <> Kill. A party without 9th level spells can still beat the Tarrasque into submission, imprison it somewhere, lock it away. If you played the old Darksun video games - particularly the second, Wake of the Ravager, you know the sort of situation I'm talking about.

It's supposed to be the Tarrasque. It shouldn't be killed.

Defeat <> Monster will be up in under a minute and killing everything in it's way.

And Big T is very chalenging if you don't dig out your MM and read its entry.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Lol. His capstone ability makes some of his abilities redundant. I hate it when they do that. All their abilities are about casting haste on themselves but when they reach 10th level their only use for the haste spell is buffing their allies who don't benifit from those class features.

Oh well. It isn't as bad as the Serpent Slayer's first level ability becoming redundant by third level.

At least moving around a lot doesn't hurt casters as much as it hurts fighters.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, the Haste requirement isn't so bad for a Sorcerer. After all, when they get a new tier of spells, they only get one spell known anyway. Given that metamagic isn't terribly popular at level 6, that's somewhat automatic. The only problem there is that the feat requirements scream "take Fighter levels!" whereas the Sorcerer part screams "take Paladin levels!" for Divine Grace.

So... Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8... 16th level Sorcerer casting, BAB +16. Not too shabby, but it's not exactly going to usher in a new era of gish-building.

Well, one could Spellthief 1/Battle Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster 5, to be more of a roguelike. BAB +12, CL 18, Sneak Attack +3d6, Sudden Raystrike +2d6, and with the proper application of feats, Steal Spell (9th level spells) with rays.

[Krellen]

Defeat <> Monster will be up in under a minute and killing everything in it's way.
You didn't play Wake of the Ravager, did you? The whole game was a mission to stop a cult from releasing the Tarrasque ("Ravager" on Athas) and, when that fails, you then have to beat it up and stick it back in the jar it came from.

That's the sort of encounter that should involve the Tarrasque. An ending involving wishing it to death rather defeats its Legendary status. Once it's dead, there's no more legend.


Lol. His capstone ability makes some of his abilities redundant. I hate it when they do that. All their abilities are about casting haste on themselves but when they reach 10th level their only use for the haste spell is buffing their allies who don't benifit from those class features.
As I read it, allies still benefit from the blur effect. They also continue to benefit from Quick Surge and Reflexive Celerity, even while being permanently hasted. The only benefit they lose is Bound Acceleration - which they don't really lose, it just becomes permanent.

[Pokemaster]

It looks like a decent prestige class for martial Bards who want something flashy. You end up with better Saves, the feat prerequisites are a bit more useful and you have a higher BAB. Your Spellcasting is weaker, but if you're going into a martial prestige class anyway, you should be fine with only a few low-level buffs and cure spells.

[marjan]

You didn't play Wake of the Ravager, did you?
No.


That's the sort of encounter that should involve the Tarrasque. An ending involving wishing it to death rather defeats its Legendary status. Once it's dead, there's no more legend.


His CR suggests that at lvl20 you should be able to beat the crap out of it with no sweat. And with partial caster you aren't going to do it. Tarasque is still legendary monster, but so are characters of lvl20. If the WotC wanted it to be much tougher they should have designed it with higher CR.

[Krellen]

His CR suggests that at lvl20 you should be able to beat the crap out of it with no sweat. And with partial caster you aren't going to do it. Tarasque is still legendary monster, but so are characters of lvl20. If the WotC wanted it to be much tougher they should have designed it with higher CR.
Once it's down, it's quite easy to keep it down, even with its massive regeneration. Once again, defeat <> kill. You don't have to be able to wish the Tarrasque dead to defeat it. If you can get it to -50, you can get it to -90, or -500, or -5000.

[marjan]

Once it's down, it's quite easy to keep it down, even with its massive regeneration. Once again, defeat <> kill. You don't have to be able to wish the Tarrasque dead to defeat it. If you can get it to -50, you can get it to -90, or -500, or -5000.

Yes, but by defeating monster it means that you can leave the place and be done with it. With Tarasque you cannot. You will either have to beat it all day long or accept the fact that it will regenarate and continue doing what you stoped him from for a moment.

Big T is not just a random encounter which you can just leave there and get on with your life. When you face it it is usualy required that you stop him from destroying countryside.

[Krellen]

Big T is not just a random encounter which you can just leave there and get on with your life. When you face it it is usualy required that you stop him from destroying countryside.
Indeed. But why, precisely, does this mean you need to kill him?

For an 8th level solution, how about trap the soul? This is essentially the solution presented in Wake of the Ravager.
Alternatively, there is binding or temporal stasis. Going down to 7th level, you can try a plane shift or greater teleport to seal it away; most DMs would likely allow you to imprison it, without killing it (maybe for the 1,000 years its fluff says it is supposed to remain dormant?) with a limited wish.

9th level spells are not required.

[marjan]

Indeed. But why, precisely, does this mean you need to kill him?

For an 8th level solution, how about trap the soul? This is essentially the solution presented in Wake of the Ravager.
Alternatively, there is binding or temporal stasis. Going down to 7th level, you can try a plane shift or greater teleport to seal it away; most DMs would likely allow you to imprison it, without killing it (maybe for the 1,000 years its fluff says it is supposed to remain dormant?) with a limited wish.

9th level spells are not required.

Those are perfectly nice solutions but they require your DM's agreement. And you would still need to spend more than 20% of your resouces if your wizard casts at 16th CL.

[Krellen]

I highly doubt it. Much of the Tarrasque is built around negating Stupid Wizard Tricks. It's a beast designed to be taken down in physical battle, so your wizard having to have a handy sealing spell available doesn't adversely cut down on his resources. There's not a 9th level spell that, in itself, makes the encounter take up "only" 20% of resources.

[marjan]

It's a beast designed to be taken down in physical battle, so your wizard having to have a handy sealing spell available doesn't adversely cut down on his resources.

Taking Tarasque down in physical battle isn't easy even for 20th level characters. And I don't have so much problem with having to cast a spell that shouldn't be used by good characters IMO.
If you're having evil party then that's not the problem. Bigger problem is why would they want to stop it.


There's not a 9th level spell that, in itself, makes the encounter take up "only" 20% of resources.

No, but it significantly increases resources of the party (4 levels of spellcasting).

[Krellen]

And I don't have so much problem with having to cast a spell that shouldn't be used by good characters IMO.
Trap the Soul shouldn't be cast by good characters? Okay, maybe - although this, quite arguably, is the time for it.
But Binding? Temporal Stasis? Greater Teleport and Plane Shift? No, I can't agree with that at all. Those are most definitely spells good characters should be using.


If you're having evil party then that's not the problem. Bigger problem is why would they want to stop it.
Because the Tarrasque kills evil creatures - and characters! - just as readily as good.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Well, one could Spellthief 1/Battle Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 3/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster 5, to be more of a roguelike. BAB +12, CL 18, Sneak Attack +3d6, Sudden Raystrike +2d6, and with the proper application of feats, Steal Spell (9th level spells) with rays.Why battle sorcerer? Seems like a waste, since you're not likely to do much attacking anyway. How's about this?

Halfling Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 8/Arcane Trickster 5.

CL 16, BAB +11. Arcane Trickster requires +2d6 Sneak Attack which at first glance we don't have, but with the 1st level Halfling Rogue substitution level in Races of the Wild, we hit +2d6 ranged sneak attack and +0 melee sneak attack, which should let us qualify. Obviously it's something that requires running by the DM (a good halfway point is to have Arcane Trickster advance only ranged sneak attack, since you don't satisfy the AT requirements for melee sneak attack). In return, this nets us non-weaksauce-Battle-Sorcerer casting, Extended + Blurred + Extraordinary Haste, two extra spells for Quickened Knack, and the extra quickened spell while hasted which makes for good Sneak Attack fodder.

I forsee Quickened Knack going nicely with an Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray, or similar. Also, I don't have CScoundrel, so Spellwarped Sniper might be a better (and less shady) option than Arcane Trickster anyway.

Edit: Just saw that yours can steal spells with rays. I'll have to check the Spellthief entry to make sure that works, but if it does, crap, you've got me there.

[marjan]

Still all those spells kills legends of Tarasqye more than a Wish/Miracle. After all those are the most powerfull spells that exist.


Because the Tarrasque kills evil creatures - and characters! - just as readily as good.

Getting out of its way until it is no longer hungry is much netter solution for evil characters.

[Forks]

Marjan and Krellen sittin in a tree
T-A-L-K-I-N-G
First came "de" then came "rail"
Then onto its face the whole thread fell



And I agree that there need to be more PrCs with lackluster spell progression. Just not my precious RSoP!! :P

[Fax Celestis]

Why battle sorcerer? Seems like a waste, since you're not likely to do much attacking anyway. How's about this?

Halfling Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 8/Arcane Trickster 5.

CL 16, BAB +11. Arcane Trickster requires +2d6 Sneak Attack which at first glance we don't have, but with the 1st level Halfling Rogue substitution level in Races of the Wild, we hit +2d6 ranged sneak attack and +0 melee sneak attack, which should let us qualify. Obviously it's something that requires running by the DM (a good halfway point is to have Arcane Trickster advance only ranged sneak attack, since you don't satisfy the AT requirements for melee sneak attack). In return, this nets us non-weaksauce-Battle-Sorcerer casting, Extended + Blurred + Extraordinary Haste, two extra spells for Quickened Knack, and the extra quickened spell while hasted which makes for good Sneak Attack fodder.

I forsee Quickened Knack going nicely with an Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray, or similar. Also, I don't have CScoundrel, so Spellwarped Sniper might be a better (and less shady) option than Arcane Trickster anyway.

Edit: Just saw that yours can steal spells with rays. I'll have to check the Spellthief entry to make sure that works, but if it does, crap, you've got me there.

Spellwarp Sniper gets Sudden Raystrike (Sudden Strike with rays only), but Sudden Strike does qualify as Sneak Attack for the purposes of qualifying for feats and PrCs. Spellthief is allowed to forego sneak attack damage to steal a spell from an opponent. As weaponlike spells, rays can sneak attack, and the Spellthief can forego sneak attack to steal a spell using one. This brings us to a spellwarped fireball ray (7d6+2d6 Sudden Raystrike+steal a spell), which, while not incredible, certainly is fun.

[Druid]

Interesting class. I don't think I'd ever take it, but it's nice to see them using the character class articles to introduce new classes rather than spit out trite observations about an existing class that anyone who's played the game once could figure out for themselves.

[Merlin the Tuna]

*Snip*Oh, I'm familiar with both classes; a friend owns CScoundrel, and I've got CAdv, just didn't have time to check up on the Spellthief. Anyhow, I do like the spell stealing rays, but those Battle Sorcerer levels reek of bleh; especially because, if memory serves, Master Spellthief lets you cast in light armor anyway. So all you get out of B. Sorc is a few HP (which you don't care about, because you're a sneaky casty guy), 2 BAB (which you also don't care about, because you're a sneaky casty guy), and heavy baggage on your spellcasting for your entire progression.

I would definitely swap Battle Sorcerer for vanilla Sorcerer, no matter what else you do with the build. Aside from that, Swiftblade 7 seems a good target, if not 8 or maybe even 9. You lose Steal Spell (9th), but getting the extra quickened spell per turn is a pretty solid substitution. And extra ammo for Quicken Spell ain't bad, either.

[Fax Celestis]

I think Spellthief 1/Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 8/Spellwarp Sniper 5 is probably the best way to go about it, now that I think about it.

[Orzel]

They stole my 1 spell loving guy idea 'cept spellthieves can cast spells!

It's an okay class but but is kinda silly.
Of course I will make my own "You only need one spell" Swiftbalde right now!

[Latronis]

Stumbled across it yesterday

Even as a pure caster I would take a 2 level dip.

I'm taking 9 levels next time i get a gestalt game too :P

[Tor the Fallen]

You can get 3 spells off a round, two of them taking up a slot 2 spell levels higher.

That's not terrible.

[Tor the Fallen]

Stumbled across it yesterday

Even as a pure caster I would take a 2 level dip.

I'm taking 9 levels next time i get a gestalt game too :P

Why 9? 8 would give you just as much, and then switching to another class would likely give you better saves and a BAB.

[knightsaline]

I would like to see a class like the swiftblade that focuses on the most powerful 1st level spell, famous for attacking the darkness and guaranteed damage, magic missile. the requirement "must have spent one whole level casting only (spell)" is a bit weird, but as I say when trying to recruit people into the game "you don't like tackling people to the ground? you don't need to! don't like the spiked chain? you can ban it!" the DM could just waive that requirement if the player cast haste or its variants (swift haste, mass haste) more than other spells.

[AmoDman]

9th level spells are overpowered, and losing them should be something most DMs aim for their players doing anyway.

Did you just say what I think you said?






Casssster level, my precciousssss. No Dm will take you, nevar!111!!!1!!!!!

[knightsaline]

just remembered something, what happens when you hit level 10 of the swiftblade class and you are already middleaged? does your character just fall down and the DM says "blarg you is ded" and thats the end of it?

[Jack Mann]

I would like to see a class like the swiftblade that focuses on the most powerful 1st level spell, famous for attacking the darkness and guaranteed damage, magic missile.

First of all, magic missile is hardly the most powerful first level spell. It's really a poor choice for a wizard to take. The damage is guaranteed, but it's a negligible amount. There are far better spells available to you even then.

Second, the class exists. It's called Force Missile Mage, and you can find it in the Dragon Compendium, from Paizo.

[Reinboom]

Hmmn, Swiftblade is a great PrC in my opinion to either dip to 3 (2 is last great advantage, but 3 still gives you a spellcasting level with candy bonuses so why not?), or take to 6. Not worth it for most spellcasters after that though.

I like the idea around it, and the ability to be able to use quicken spell as a sorcerer.

[Person_Man]

Melee-focused Battle Sorceror, maybe, or a unoptimized Cleric with the Time domain.

Actually, Cleric 5/Swiftblade 3/full caster PrC X might not be bad. You can cast Quickened spells more easily and gain your Wis bonus to Initiative. Pick up the Easy Metamagic feat to lower the LA of Quicken to +2, and and cast Divine Power for full BAB.

Of course, the class specifically only progresses "arcane spell class." So you'd have to get a house rule to use a Cleric with Time. And wasting two feats on Dodge and Lightning Reflexes sucks, losing a caster level sucks, and you don't have to worry about metamagic LA if you have access to the Divine Metamagic feat. It wouldn't be a particularly strong build, but if you're playing with other non-optimized PC's, it might be worth trying.

[Annarrkkii]

Smells like duskblade to me...

I like it. I think you could break it if you worked hard enough, in all probability, but I rather like it. Between the CL loss and harsh special req, it's balanced, especially for an only partial arcanist. Or a gestalt.

[Latronis]

Why 9? 8 would give you just as much, and then switching to another class would likely give you better saves and a BAB.

Eh 8 then, I just meant i like everything bar the 10th level ability. Though If you've already got 10' swift surge might aswell take 20' It's not like taking 9 levels is going to make you suck, especially if you're still getting +1 arcane caster level a level.

[Stephen_E]

The casting haste for 1 lev isn't that harsh so long as you enter the class at 7th level. A Sorceror only has 1 3rd lev spell at that point so he can't cast anything else. The Wizards a bit more of a drain, but even then it's only a mild annoyance.

Stephen