what class do yoy think best makes a witch doctor?

[CyberThread]

What class do you feel over all makes the best overall feel of abilities for a stereotypical mystic witch doctot

[bloodshed343]

Diviner Wizard / Land Druid

[Rfkannen]

What class do you feel over all makes the best overall feel of abilities for a stereotypical mystic witch doctot

Okay so you are messing with spirits, you are a healer, your a bit removed from modern society, you can transform people(at least yourself, and most of all, you are a keeper of ancient knowledge passed down in order to heal people and teach them about the spiritual side of the world as well as the tribes history. DRUID!!!

if your going for the weird virsion of witch docters that you get in horror movies and stuff curseing people than I guess you would want warlock.

[Feldarove]

The first thing I think of one I hear witch doctor is cursing people. This leads me to Warlock.

[RedMage125]

I agree with Druid, for the most part.

I think proficiency with an Herbalist Kit/Alchemist Tools would be a must, for the brewing of mystical potions.

Is there a way to add animate dead to a spell list? Because the creation of zombies is something I would consider iconic to a Witch Doctor. It's also one of the main things that doesn't fit with the Druid idea.

[bloodshed343]

I agree with Druid, for the most part.

I think proficiency with an Herbalist Kit/Alchemist Tools would be a must, for the brewing of mystical potions.

Is there a way to add animate dead to a spell list? Because the creation of zombies is something I would consider iconic to a Witch Doctor. It's also one of the main things that doesn't fit with the Druid idea.


Diviner Wizard/Druid gives you all the druid goodness, plus the ability to see the future and Animate the dead. I don't think think you need more than a 2 point dip in wizard for Portent since you can add Animate Dead to your spell book as soon as you can find/afford it. Since your spell slots are based on your total caster level, you'd be able to cast it anyway.

You could also reflavor conjure animals as conjuring zombie animals.

[Shadow]

Apparently I'm going to be the oddball here and say that I think cleric is the best chassis, with witch doctor being a subclass (voodoo domain, or something, if you need to call it by a domain name).


since you can add Animate Dead to your spell book as soon as you can find/afford it.

Slots are based on level.
Spells known are not. You cannot add it to your spellbook unless you have enough levels of the appropriate class to cast it in that class.
Example: A wizard 1 / cleric 19 only knows 1st level wizard spells. They can use any slot to cast those 1st level spells, but they cannot prepare any wizard spells higher than 1st level.

[bloodshed343]

Apparently I'm going to be the oddball here and say that I think cleric is the best chassis, with witch doctor being a subclass (voodoo domain, or something, if you need to call it by a domain name).



Slots are based on level.
Spells known are not. You cannot add it to your spellbook unless you have enough levels of the appropriate class to cast it in that class.
Example: A wizard 1 / cleric 19 only knows 1st level wizard spells. They can use any slot to cast those 1st level spells, but they cannot prepare any wizard spells higher than 1st level.

Both the rules for preparing spells and for adding spells to your spell book say that the spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

This means that a wizard 1 cleric 19 can cast any wizard spell so long as they are able to find it and add it to their spell book, since they will have slots up to 9th level to add the spell and slots up to 9th level to prepare it.

[Shadow]

Both the rules for preparing spells and for adding spells to your spell book say that the spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

This means that a wizard 1 cleric 19 can cast any wizard spell so long as they are able to find it and add it to their spell book, since they will have slots up to 9th level to add the spell and slots up to 9th level to prepare it.

Turn to page 164 of your PHB.

edit:
For clarity's sake:
The rules on spell prep for each individual class presupposes a single classed caster, and are written as such.
Chapter 6: Customization Options > Multiclassing > Spellcasting > Spells Known and Prepared (page 163-4), reads the following:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Removing the irrelevant text, and leaving only that which is relevant for a wizard, it would read:
"You determine what spells you can prepare as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
So one level of wizard means you can prepare the same spells that a 1st level wizard could prepare, and nothing more.

A wizard 9 / cleric 11 is a 20th level caster for determining his spell slots.
For determining spells known and spells prepared, he is a 9th level wizard (5th level wizard spells prepared) and an 11th level cleric (6th level cleric spells prepared).

15/5 would get 8th level spells on one side, 3rd level spells on the other, and 9th level slots.

[bloodshed343]

Turn to page 164 of your PHB.

edit:
For clarity's sake:
The rules on spell prep for each individual class presupposes a single classed caster, and are written as such.
Chapter 6: Customization Options > Multiclassing > Spellcasting > Spells Known and Prepared (page 163-4), reads the following:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Removing the irrelevant text, and leaving only that which is relevant for a wizard, it would read:
"You determine what spells you can prepare as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
So one level of wizard means you can prepare the same spells that a 1st level wizard could prepare, and nothing more.

A wizard 9 / cleric 11 is a 20th level caster for determining his spell slots.
For determining spells known and spells prepared, he is a 9th level wizard (5th level wizard spells prepared) and an 11th level cleric (6th level cleric spells prepared).

15/5 would get 8th level spells on one side, 3rd level spells on the other, and 9th level slots.

That makes sense, since otherwise wiz/sorc would be strictly better than wizard or sorcerer alone.

Anyway, a Diviner 2/ Druid 18 is a good Witch doctor.

[unwise]

I think that a Witch Doctor would just be as simple as swapping out some of the domain spells of a Land Druid for other ones. That way you can pick up some more divination, a curse or two and animate dead.

[Tensaru]

I would go with Bard and say that your powers come from your knowledge of the spirit world. Your Bardic Inspiration could be from having spirits guide you or your allies, Jack of All Trades is just guidance from a spirit that knows that skill whispering you tips, and Magical Secrets are just long lost magical spells given to you by spirits that you have helped. If you go College of Lore than you can say that Cutting Words is you cursing your enemies with black magic. For spells I would pick up Hex and Raise Dead when available for more of the Voodoo feel. Find Familliar for a snake would be good too. Use Acid Splash and Poison Spray as your cantrips for damage. Grab some drums and you are all set.

[GiantOctopodes]

Turn to page 164 of your PHB.

edit:
For clarity's sake:
The rules on spell prep for each individual class presupposes a single classed caster, and are written as such.
Chapter 6: Customization Options > Multiclassing > Spellcasting > Spells Known and Prepared (page 163-4), reads the following:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Removing the irrelevant text, and leaving only that which is relevant for a wizard, it would read:
"You determine what spells you can prepare as if you were a single-classed member of that class."
So one level of wizard means you can prepare the same spells that a 1st level wizard could prepare, and nothing more.

A wizard 9 / cleric 11 is a 20th level caster for determining his spell slots.
For determining spells known and spells prepared, he is a 9th level wizard (5th level wizard spells prepared) and an 11th level cleric (6th level cleric spells prepared).

15/5 would get 8th level spells on one side, 3rd level spells on the other, and 9th level slots.

That was my original assumption as well, but the comment from bloodshed made me double check. How does a single class wizard prepare and cast spells? That in turn led to these gems:



You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.


Ok, so in order to prepare a spell as part of the list of wizard spells that are available to cast, they need to be in your spellbook, and of a level for which you have spell slots. Well, that's fine and not particularly damning, surely there must be a restriction on the level of spells you can add to your spellbook, right?




When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.


Wait, that's it? That's the only restriction? That it be of a level for which you have spell slots and that you can "spare the time"? Patently absurd. The multiclassing rules have to have something in there that make your muticlass slots not count for this purpose. Sure, you only can prepare 1 + your int mod of spells, and you only got the free wizard spells of an appropriate level, but there would appear to be no restriction on a single class wizard knowing or preparing higher level spells if they have the slots for them.



You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.


Well, I'll be. Now granted, we all freely recognize developer intent (in that they intended to properly write the PHB and not do stupid stuff like this) is that you can only add spells to your spellbook (thus properly restricting your spells known) if they are of a level for which you have spell slots *assuming you were a single class wizard*, and that is where Shadow's quote ties in. You could also take the interpretation that you can only prepare spells *assuming you had the spell slots of a single class*. But of course, they had to leave out the most vital bits as always, so by shaving all of perhaps 4 words off of an ability, they make it so that, technically speaking, per RAW, a single class Wizard *could* know and prepare spells of a higher level than they should be able to, if they had the available slots for them, and they definitely have the appropriate slots in this case.

Now, what that *should* read is

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you had the spell slots of a character with your class level in the respective class. For example, If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and if your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook. When you add spells to your spellbook, they must be of first or second level, exactly as though you were a 3rd level wizard.


Ok, so that's 5 words more. Still, imho it would have been worth it. Note that I don't expect any DM *ever* to allow Wizard 1 / whatever 19 to allow you to act in all respects like you're a 20th level wizard, so I think it's a somewhat moot point. More a little frustrated with the nebulous writing of this book. In a way, it almost feels like Warhammer- left deliberately vague, so people can "choose their own adventure" style pick whatever interpretation suits their preferences, but on things like this, it feels more like they just screwed up.

[Shadow]

Once again.
Multiclassing is a variant. As such, the class descriptions presuppose a single classed character by default, and are written as such. Ignore everything that the individual class descriptions say for the moment. We'll get back to that.

Chapter 6: Customization Options > Multiclassing > Spellcasting > Spells Known and Prepared (page 163-4), reads the following:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

So a wizard 1 / cleric 19 is the character in question. We're going to determine which spells he can prepare for each class individually, as if he were single classed for each.
So for wizard spells, he is a wizard 1 / cleric 19, and can prepare wizard spells as a wizard 1.
For cleric spells, he is a wizard 1 / cleric 19, and can prepare cleric spells as a cleric 19.
Now it's time to look at the individual class descriptions. Look up wizard 1 and see how many spells he can prepare of each level, then do the same for cleric 19.
It isn't ambiguous. It isn't written vaguely. It isn't nebulous. They didn't screw anything up. They wrote it in a perfectly acceptable manner.

[GiantOctopodes]

Once again.
Multiclassing is a variant. As such, the class descriptions presuppose a single classed character by default, and are written as such. Ignore everything that the individual class descriptions say for the moment. We'll get back to that.

Chapter 6: Customization Options > Multiclassing > Spellcasting > Spells Known and Prepared (page 163-4), reads the following:
"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

So a wizard 1 / cleric 19 is the character in question. We're going to determine which spells he can prepare for each class individually, as if he were single classed for each.
So for wizard spells, he is a wizard 1 / cleric 19, and can prepare wizard spells as a wizard 1.
For cleric spells, he is a wizard 1 / cleric 19, and can prepare cleric spells as a cleric 19.
Now it's time to look at the individual class descriptions. Look up wizard 1 and see how many spells he can prepare of each level, then do the same for cleric 19.
It isn't ambiguous. It isn't written vaguely. It isn't nebulous. They didn't screw anything up. They wrote it in a perfectly acceptable manner.

I'm not going to debate this one with you, since I actually am pleased that I am not ignored apparently (as I desire to intelligently discourse with as many people as possible) and we agree on what the "correct" way is to read the rules in this instance. I 100% agree that is the proper way to determine what spells you can prepare, as well as the implications you extend from that.

Sure, the rules do not specify a restriction on a Wizard 1 preparing a 9th level spell, so preparing wizard spells as a wizard 1 does not in and of itself prevent you from doing so, but just try telling that to your DM, see the look they give you and their reaction.

My last words in this thread are in regards to the OP- if you want to be a "shamanistic" Witch Doctor with strong nature ties, Druid is a phenomenal choice. If you want to be a "hexing" sort of witch doctor, Warlock is pretty great. And, as with most things, a properly made College of Lore Bard can do the job pretty well too- your off list spells can include hex if you like, or summoning or nature spells if you want more of those, or both. Meanwhile, cutting words can be mildly reflavored to reflect your witch doctor magic quite nicely, and your spell list has a surprisingly large number of appropriate spells. You can be exceptionally good at Animal Handling or Survival or whatever else (possibly alchemy?) with expertise, too.

[Shadow]

The rules do put a restriction on a wizard 1 preparing a 9th level spell. A wizard 1 only has 1st level slots, and as he needs slots to prepare, he can only prepare 1st level spells because he only has 1st level slots.
That's exactly what the "as if you were single-classed" bit it stipulating.
Find that level and look at what slots you would have at that level. Those are the spells you can prepare.
Your actually slots may vary, but we aren't concerned with our actual slots for preparation purposes. For preparation purposes we look at the chart as if we were single-classed.

[Windrammer]

Why not sorcerer/cleric? Heals and wild, flexible gimmicks, with some divining ability.

[Ashrym]

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to create a witch doctor.

What I don't like about the cleric is the class and domain features. The class is described as a healers and warriors, and the domain options are typically potent spell casting or heavy armor. Heavy armor (even on a nature cleric) doesn't seem appropriate, and sacred flame is a requirement for potent spell casting because it only applies to cleric cantrips, although I would prefer that to heavy armor. I think a cleric would require a custom domain to fit the witch doctor.

Druids are more suited to a tribal witch doctor with more nature oriented spells and in the armor used. They are more suited to witch doctors, in my opinion. The issue with druids is that if the PC is looking for specific spells like animate dead or augury or spirit guardians those aren't available.

I don't care much for spell preparation classes for witch doctors because they have access to more spells than I would expect and can change them to potentially break the flavor of the concept anyway.

If we're talking about a shamanistic type witch doctor then we're looking at someone who keeps history and custom, tells stories of the spirit world or ancestors, and performs rituals chanting and dancing while playing drums or rattles or whatever. That's a bard from older druidic origins and matches up more closely with 1e bards or some of the quintessential bard archetypes from 3e.

The bard has a close spell selection to what is expected from a witch doctor and is malleable enough with magical secrets and skills to meet additional expectations. Lore bard would be the closest caster, imo.

[themaque]

I like the Warlock. He's got friends on the other side.

[zeek0]

When I was planning out a shaman/witchdoctor I chose the warlock and a pact with the Great Old One for a darkness and divination motif.

However, it seems to me that the witch doctor is best expressed by a background. Here is the background a wrote for a Shaman character:

Background: Shaman
You live your life as a mediator, diviner, storyteller, healer, and psychopomp. Among your people you serve as a carrier of traditions and conduit of archaic wisdom.

Skill Proficiencies: Medicine, Nature
Weapon Proficiency: Blowgun
Tool Proficiencies: Herbalism Kit, Poisoner’s Kit
Equipment: Antitoxin (vial), Herbalism kit, Poisoner’s kit, natural ritualistic items, and a belt pouch containing 5 gp

*(Note: while the blowgun is an extra proficiency, the blowgun is a terrible weapon, worse than simple ranged weapons. Take it out if you feel it is unbalanced.)*

Spirits Specialty
As a shaman, you have learned to revere the spirits. Your lifestyle is characterized by the type of spirits that you interact with and how you channel their power.
d10 - Spirits Specialty
1 - Ancestral
6 - Elemental
2- Fey
7 - Undead
3 - Plant
8 - Astral
4 - Animal
9 - Fiend
5 - Archetypal
10 - Celestial

Feature: Parley with Spirits
If confronted by a natural spirit, you can attempt to force the situation with the entity. If successful you have made a great display of respect and tradition, and the entity is inclined to be more favorable toward you and your party. Communing gives an opening: an intelligent spirit may give a chance to talk, a friendly spirit may be more helpful, and a hostile spirit may rethink a violent act. A natural spirit that dwells naturally in the world, such as an intelligent animal, animate plant, fey, or elemental.

Suggested Characteristics:
Shamanistic practices are usually learned in order to preserve social order and benefit individuals in your society. Many are part of druidic traditions, but all are steeped in reverence of the social order. In relation to more organized religions shamans are often viewed as lesser or barbaric practitioners of spiritual activity.

d8 Personality Trait
1 - I am slow to trust people that are not members of my social group.
2 - I am deeply reverent of the spiritual world - people and cities are not important in comparison.
3 - The spirit world is a terrible and brutal place, and so am I.
4 - I have faced oppression for my beliefs, and I am reticent to express them.
5 - Tradition is the backbone of any society, and following it gives much benefit.
6 - I believe that the spirits are in control of our fate and we only act out the part.
7 - The spirits have taught me to be tolerant and understanding of all creatures.
8 - Mortal life is less real and important than the world of the spirits.

d6 Ideal
1 - Tradition. The ancient traditions of my ancestors must be honored and upheld. (Lawful)
2 - Wild. Nature abhors a wall. (Chaotic)
3 - Wisdom. The path to power and self-improvement is through the gathering of ancient wisdom. (Any)
4 - Power. Communion with the spirits can offer the path toward power and domination. (Evil)
5 - Balance. Both the mundane and spiritual world seek balance in all things. (Neutral)
6 - Greater Good. It is my duty to use my abilities to help people and assist the ailing. (Good)

d6 Bond
1 - I must always protect my homeland and my people.
2 - Protection of the spirits and the natural order is paramount.
3 - I sold my soul for greater deeds and power. I hope to do great deeds and win it back.
4 - My life is my devotion to my people and their traditions.
5 - I have been searching my whole life for the answer to a certain question.
6 - I have been entrusted with a powerful secret, and I must not let it fall into the wrong hands.

d6 Flaw
1 - I find it hard to take worldly matters seriously.
2 - I only value the needs of my tribe and I do not care for other civilizations.
3 - The spirits often interfere with my life and request things of me.
4 - I am in awe of the spirits and am afraid to act against them.
5 - I am flighty and prone to distraction.
6 - I am deeply mistrustful of members of other faiths.

Cheers!

[RedMage125]

I really dig your background. A lot.

And while the blowgun is fine, and even proficiency with a poisoner's kit is fine, I think giving a poisoner's kit as part of the starting equipment package is a bit much, just the herbalist's kit should be fine.

But great job!

[zeek0]

I really dig your background. A lot.

And while the blowgun is fine, and even proficiency with a poisoner's kit is fine, I think giving a poisoner's kit as part of the starting equipment package is a bit much, just the herbalist's kit should be fine.

But great job!

Thanks for the compliments. The reason that I gave the poisoner's kit in the starting package is because it costs 50 gp, comparable to other artisan tools given by other backgrounds. The herbalism kit only costs 5 gp.

However, on reflection, the antitoxin (50 gp) overdoes it. I'll have it removed when I use it in play.