Card Hearthstone 10: I am topdeck INCARNATE! [Archive]

Zevox

2014-12-22, 01:20 PM

Welcome to tenth GitP thread for Hearthstone. For anyone who doesn't know, Hearthstone is a video card game from Blizzard, based on the Warcraft series. The game is free to play and available here (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/), so if you're interested, give it a shot. You've got nothing to lose but your free time. :smallwink:

For new players, something to be aware of is that there are a number of hidden "quests" you can complete which will give you free gold, dust, or even a pack. A complete list can be found here (http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/1088-list-of-quests-and-daily-quests-in-hearthstone). Be aware that not quite all of those are ones you'll be able to complete quickly though.

And here is a list of Playgrounders currently in the game, for both NA and EU servers:

GitP UsernameBattle.net ID (US)
aethernoxethernox#1948
AgentPaperAgentPaper#1193
AmberVaelAmberVael#1225
AntonokAntonok#1704
AnxeGoCorral#1879
BaelotBaelot#1149
CogwheelOmegaNixon#1123
banthesunbanthesun#1782
Dancing OwlbearOwlbear#1586
Destro YersulDestroYersul#1239
D_LordVolrock#1367
Duck999Duck999#1349
DuosDoctorDapper#1491
Firedaemon33Firedaemon#1486
Fleeing CowardScorch#1432
GamerlordGamerlord#1612
GandarielCiabatta#2958
Gray MageGrayMage#1723
GrytormGrytorm#1777
HamsteTheorules#1234
HatevahHatevah#1405
HircineIllusiveMan#1616
jindra34JinRia #1770
JohnjimcoJohnJimco#1482
KarohtKaroht#1505
KradeKrade#1266
LegoShrimplegoshrimp#1722
Loreweaver15Loreweaver#1199
MacGiollaMacGiolla#1982
MathMageMathMage#1797
mistformsquirrlmistformsqrl#1430
Mystic MuseLunasombra#1763
Neon KnightVultureCrook#1434
NerociteJoeKage#1852
nhbdyNohbdy#1927
OlinserOlinser#1393
OnionbreathGiantSquid#1845
Pokonicpokonic#1166
QwertystopQwertystop#1897
r2d2gor2d2go#1262
RosstinRosstin#1609
SamBurkeSamBurke#1486
ShishnarfneGruschenka#1375
Stabbity Rabbit StabityRabit#1362
TemoteiTemotei#1507
Thanatos 51-50Thanatos5150#1407
TheGlyphstoneGlyphstone#1419
The_JackalTheJackal#1499
TogarthAsparag#1680
Trouble BrewingHairyPoppins#1949
VolatarVolatar#1750
YanaRaltis#1807
ZeroNumerousZeroNumerous#1913
ZevoxZevox#1522

GitP UsernameBattle.net ID (EU)
AdumbrationAdumbration#2419
Avilan the GreyBeardedgeek#2355
DadaScrattlebear#2863
D-naras Dinos #2811
Epinephrine_SynSilverSeraph #2931
Fleeing CowardScorch#1432
Frog DragonVasemmasti#2618
FyreByrdFyreByrd#2962
GandarielCiabatta#2958
Hippie_VikingHippieViking#2866
Infernally ClayWinny#1904
LionheartLionheart#2440
RaddishRaddish#2730
ScionoftheVoidJayPsi#2775
ShinyRocksMoodyTuskarr#2790
SilfirSilfir#2863
SlyGuyMcFlySlGuyMcFly#2562
VolthawkVolthawk#1214
WeimannWeimann#2716

Togath

2014-12-22, 01:40 PM

Since I've gotten curious:
How would a pirate deck do nowadays?
I was thinking a rogue or warrior for the class(probably rogue, since they can combine low cost pirates with combo cards)

Grytorm

2014-12-22, 01:46 PM

Thrawn183

2014-12-22, 01:56 PM

A new thread and the first time someone's played a Deathwing for me in a while: http://imgur.com/QnKDpdn

Whooooo

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-12-22, 02:18 PM

Since I've gotten curious:
How would a pirate deck do nowadays?
I was thinking a rogue or warrior for the class(probably rogue, since they can combine low cost pirates with combo cards)
I feel like Pirate decks are somewhat better but still not great. Definitely Rogue, though.

Also, I was just rushed down and killed by a Priest on Turn 7.

They open with a Leper Gnome T1. Then 2x Power Word: Shield on T2. Then Velen's Chosen T3. Then Mind Blast and Holy Smite to my face T4. I looked at my health and cried. They followed it up with an Arcane Golem after I finally had the mana to Polymorph the Gnome. Then Undertaker and Loot Hoarder, which I managed to kill off, but then on T7 they finished with Holy Fire.

Granted, it was pretty gimmicky. But...I've never seen a Priest aggro deck like that before. Weird.

Anxe

2014-12-22, 02:23 PM

Thinking about trying to make a Hobgoblin deck. Not entirely seriously but serious enough to see how it comes together. So how many trigger cards for Hobgoblin do you think you would need to make the card worth running?

Purely based on stats the Hobgoblin is worth it if it triggers one minion. Example: Elven Archer. The Hobgoblin has a 2 mana cost body, the buffed Elven Archer has a 3 mana cost body, so its gone up by 2 mana. You got 5 mana of stuff for only 4 mana.

As for how many cards... 6 or 8?

Infernally Clay

2014-12-22, 02:26 PM

Thinking about trying to make a Hobgoblin deck. Not entirely seriously but serious enough to see how it comes together. So how many trigger cards for Hobgoblin do you think you would need to make the card worth running?

Just make a Hunter Deathrattle deck with Bloodmage Thalnos, Baron Rivendare, Acolyte of Pain, Annoy-o-Tron, Explosive Sheep, Haunted Creeper, Undertaker, Unstable Ghoul, Echoing Ooze, Webspinner and of course Feign Death. If you pull Hobgoblin, you'll dominate easily and trade more efficiently. If you don't, you'll still have a really strong board most of the time and will probably win anyway because of how aggressive most Hunter decks are.

Thrawn183

2014-12-22, 02:30 PM

Just make a Hunter Deathrattle deck with Bloodmage Thalnos, Baron Rivendare, Acolyte of Pain, Annoy-o-Tron, Explosive Sheep, Haunted Creeper, Undertaker, Unstable Ghoul, Echoing Ooze, Webspinner and of course Feign Death. If you pull Hobgoblin, you'll dominate easily and trade more efficiently. If you don't, you'll still have a really strong board most of the time and will probably win anyway because of how aggressive most Hunter decks are.

Would you really want explosive sheep in that deck? Everything else makes sense, but that seems like it would just clear your own board.

Grytorm

2014-12-22, 03:11 PM

To commemorate the new thread starring Deathwing in the title I disenchanted my copy and crafted a Tirion Fordring.

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-12-22, 03:17 PM

I'm really starting to love Echo of Medivh. I snagged a pair of Bomb Lobbers and a Spectral Knight with it late-game. They played Alexstraza. Bye-bye Alexstraza.

r2d2go

2014-12-22, 04:23 PM

Would you really want explosive sheep in that deck? Everything else makes sense, but that seems like it would just clear your own board.

Unstable Ghoul is similarly questionable. You could try mechs for mech-aggro...

Annoy-o-Tron
Cogmaster
Micro Machine
Jeeves
Junkbot

That set is all neutrals, so you could go with any deck from there. Hunter gets Timber Wolf (maybe just a one-of for combo), Webspinner (similarly made worse), Metaltooth Leaper for the mech-synergy.

Rosstin

2014-12-22, 06:31 PM

Interesting ramp Druid with Grove Tender http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/2pyv6a/legend_with_grove_tender_ramp_druid/

Weimann

2014-12-22, 11:33 PM

Once I get a new laptop after Christmas, I will play so much. Did I hear they were working on a smartphone port or did I make that up?

Anxe

2014-12-22, 11:43 PM

Once I get a new laptop after Christmas, I will play so much. Did I hear they were working on a smartphone port or did I make that up?

They are indeed. Its got to be radically different though. The iPad port is already small enough that I've misclicked sometimes.

Tectonic Robot

2014-12-23, 02:21 AM

Deathwing was my first ever legend. Quite a fantastic card, don'tcha know.

I unpacked Blingtron today. Yaaaayyyy meeeeee.

Grytorm

2014-12-23, 03:14 AM

Started doing Arena runs on the European server, any suggestions for an interesting deck to build towards with my dust?

Rosstin

2014-12-23, 03:30 AM

Hob Druid: http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/2q16kw/top_50_hobgoblintokendruid_decklist_with_card/

Man the ladder is tuff. I was Rank 1 at one point, now I'm 4 :-(

Deck to build towards: Warlock Zoo or Facw Hunter. If I have time I might post some good ones.

Gandariel

2014-12-23, 06:55 AM

That's a pretty cool looking druid deck!! I'm on vacation now but when i get back(and get the cards) I'll definitely try it out.

Xiander

2014-12-23, 10:05 AM

So, I've been fooling around with a Token Paladin deck, with moderate success. I am curious, is that deck type in any way viable further up the ladder?

I might post my list later, if I get the time.

Cespenar

2014-12-23, 12:40 PM

So, this is funny. I Blessing of Wisdom'd and then Argent Protector'd a Zombie Chow at Turn 3.

It ended up drawing me 8 cards.

Recaiden

2014-12-23, 02:06 PM

Deathwing was my first ever legend. Quite a fantastic card, don'tcha know.

I unpacked Blingtron today. Yaaaayyyy meeeeee.

I've only seen one Blingtron.
And it won me the game when my opponent played it.

Opponent plays Fel Reaver.
I play Coin, 2 cheap minions, and Hex the reaver.
Opponent concedes.

Ionbound

2014-12-23, 03:42 PM

I'm really starting to love Echo of Medivh. I snagged a pair of Bomb Lobbers and a Spectral Knight with it late-game. They played Alexstraza. Bye-bye Alexstraza.

Have you seen Day9's echo mage/handmage deck? It's pretty wonderful. The best way to describe it, I think, is 'Infinite 8/8s.'

r2d2go

2014-12-23, 03:51 PM

I've only seen one Blingtron.
And it won me the game when my opponent played it.

Opponent plays Fel Reaver.
I play Coin, 2 cheap minions, and Hex the reaver.
Opponent concedes.

Seriously? :smalltongue: People are overestimating the power of mill when your deck is not empty... because it has absolutely no effect on your turn-by-turn effectiveness. I assume this was turn 5, meaning the opponent had 9 turns left to do work at the exact same effectiveness as before...

Started doing Arena runs on the European server, any suggestions for an interesting deck to build towards with my dust?

I'm rather liking my Shaman Mech Zoo (I've been tinkering for awhile)...

2 Rockbiter Weapon
2 Abusive Sergeant
Argent Squire
2 Clockwork Gnome
2 Cogmaster
Stormforged Axe
2 Crackle
2 Annoy-o-tron
Dire Wolf Alpha
2 Flametongue Totem
2 Mechwarper
2 Micro Machine
2 Whirling Zap-o-Matic
2 Powermace
Hex
2 Dunemaul Shaman
Windspeaker
Bloodlust

19 commons, 4 rares and 7 free cards makes it rather affordable, I think. I haven't found much that improves it significantly.

Infernally Clay

2014-12-23, 05:03 PM

Seriously? :smalltongue: People are overestimating the power of mill when your deck is not empty... because it has absolutely no effect on your turn-by-turn effectiveness. I assume this was turn 5, meaning the opponent had 9 turns left to do work at the exact same effectiveness as before...

As I keep saying yet people look at me like I'm a weirdo, losing nine cards is a huge deal when your deck only has 22 cards left in it. You can't say it has no "effect on your effectiveness", because you've just thrown away nine cards. Not just any nine cards, but the nine cards you were going to draw over the next nine turns. That's huge and much greater a cost than anyone seems to be able to understand. I can't get my head around the idea that it's okay to lose at least almost half your remaining deck on turn five. This isn't Schroedinger's Hearthstone, which is the assumption a lot of people seem to be under.

The biggest argument for Fel Reaver is "you may never have drawn those cards anyway", which is wrong. If Fel Reaver discarded from the bottom of your deck, you might have had a point since it's unlikely you'll get that far, but it discards from the top of your deck and thus directly interferes with what you were going to draw next. So, yes, you were going to draw those cards - you just didn't know it yet. If I played Fel Reaver in my Zoo deck, for example, and it threw away one of my Doom Guards, I've just lost the Doom Guard I was going to draw next turn and probably end the game with. Instead, now, I get to draw something useless like a Void Walker or something strong but nowhere near as useful right now like a Floating Watcher.

efdf

2014-12-23, 05:06 PM

Discarding from the top is exactly the same as discarding from the bottom

Hamste

2014-12-23, 05:17 PM

Unless you have a way to see the next cards in your deck or a way to arrange the deck the way you want whether you discard from the top, bottom or randomly doesn't matter. The cards on the bottom of the deck are just as likely to be good as the ones on top. For example which is more likely? Your doomguard is on top or six minions down or any other random place in your deck? Unless you have a way to know where the doomguard is neither is most likely. You could discard the doomguard that would have won you the game next turn but you could also have sped up drawing it 6 turns. Again it only matters if you can't draw anymore.

r2d2go

2014-12-23, 05:57 PM

As I keep saying yet people look at me like I'm a weirdo, losing nine cards is a huge deal when your deck only has 22 cards left in it. You can't say it has no "effect on your effectiveness", because you've just thrown away nine cards. Not just any nine cards, but the nine cards you were going to draw over the next nine turns. That's huge and much greater a cost than anyone seems to be able to understand. I can't get my head around the idea that it's okay to lose at least almost half your remaining deck on turn five. This isn't Schroedinger's Hearthstone, which is the assumption a lot of people seem to be under.

The biggest argument for Fel Reaver is "you may never have drawn those cards anyway", which is wrong. If Fel Reaver discarded from the bottom of your deck, you might have had a point since it's unlikely you'll get that far, but it discards from the top of your deck and thus directly interferes with what you were going to draw next. So, yes, you were going to draw those cards - you just didn't know it yet. If I played Fel Reaver in my Zoo deck, for example, and it threw away one of my Doom Guards, I've just lost the Doom Guard I was going to draw next turn and probably end the game with. Instead, now, I get to draw something useless like a Void Walker or something strong but nowhere near as useful right now like a Floating Watcher.

Actually, no. As I have said before, the mathematical probability of drawing any given card remains exactly the same, unless you somehow can look at the top of your deck. Let me give you an easy example...

If you have two cards in your deck, card 1 and card 2, the chance of drawing either one is 50%.

Now, let's say you mill a card. The chance of milling card 1 is 50%. If you do, you have 100% chance of drawing card 2. The chance of milling card 2 is 50%. If you do, you have a 100% chance of drawing card 1. As you can see, the probability stays exactly the same.

Let's say you have 3 cards instead. The chance of drawing any given card is 33%. If you mill 1...

The chance of milling card 1 is 33%. If you do, you have a 50% chance of drawing card 2, and a 50% chance of drawing card 3.
The chance of milling card 2 is 33%. If you do, you have a 50% chance of drawing card 1, and a 50% chance of drawing card 3.
The chance of milling card 3 is 33%. If you do, you have a 50% chance of drawing card 1, and a 50% chance of drawing card 2.

This totals to a 33% chance of drawing card 1, a 33% chance of drawing card 2, and a 33% chance of drawing card 3. Exactly the same as before the milling.

This works for all amounts of cards, all amounts of milling, and all types of cards. This is why you don't throw in Tomb Scour into any old blue deck in MtG. Milling your opponent, while it may sometimes feel like you are negating threats by milling them, does not reduce their effectiveness whatsoever. Until, of course, they run out of cards.

This is not "Schroedinger's Hearthstone". This is math. The chance you discard that Doomguard and suddenly you have 1 less threat is mathematically the same as the chance that you don't discard Doomguard, multiplied by the chance that allows you to draw Doomguard. The net result is the exact same chance of drawing Doomguard as you had before.

I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. The math is not difficult - I recall learning it some time in elementary school.

Ionbound

2014-12-23, 06:03 PM

You see, the problem is that RNG is a cruel mistress. And as such, whenever you play a Fel Reaver, you will inevitably lose the best cards in your deck or something that will help a great deal, while if your opponent plays one, they will lose, for the most part, cards that are useless for the situation.

Infernally Clay

2014-12-23, 06:19 PM

I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. The math is not difficult - I recall learning it some time in elementary school.

Insulting people's intelligence is such a great debating tool.

r2d2go

2014-12-23, 06:23 PM

Insulting people's intelligence is such a great debating tool.

So is addressing only one line added as a side comment in a several-paragraph argument :smalltongue: I assume that means you find the rest of my logic sound, and have no further objections?

Anyway, it was not meant as an insult to you. More of a general statement of confusion, in hopes that someone could explain why, exactly, people can't or won't use the math in this situation.

Joran

2014-12-23, 06:48 PM

Have you seen Day9's echo mage/handmage deck? It's pretty wonderful. The best way to describe it, I think, is 'Infinite 8/8s.'

The best way to describe it is to watch this video and listen to the sound of pure delight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De_qZiw687A

You can skip to 3:30 to get to the good part.

Also, in fun decklists, Darkwonyx broke out a really weird, miracle-ish warlock tournament deck. The basic win condition and finisher is Arcane Golem + Double Power Overwhelming + Faceless for 24 damage. Outside of that, it has some really random cards like Fel Cannon, Mistress of Pain, Twisting Nether.

Here's a fun moment with Kibler finding out what the deck has:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQu44kHhuX4#t=2143

bloodmage thalnos
baron geddon
alexstraza
2x healbot
2x belcher
2x farseer
1x faceless manipulator
2x mistress of pain
2x felcannon
1x voidwalker
1x arcane golem
2x mortal coil
2x siphon soul
2x power overwhelming
2x hellfire
2x darkbomb
2x imp-losion
1x twisting nether
1x demonheart

Murmaider

2014-12-23, 06:55 PM

How can you even know that the order of a deck is decided at the beginning of a game? You can't touch your cards and there is no way to look at your deck, except, taking them from the top.

So, maybe, the game gives you random cards from your deck, which are determined whenever you draw or get to look at a card from the top of your deck.

Gandariel

2014-12-23, 07:08 PM

Insulting people's intelligence is such a great debating tool.

Insulting is indeed wrong, but seriously, you need to understand you are objectively wrong in this debate.

Discarding from the top or the bottom has ZERO difference. Accept it.

To help you understand this card, maybe you can think about face Hunter.
In face Hunter, whatever card you draw is usually some form of "deal x damage to his face ".

So, is it really important which one you draw? NO. I mean ok, some are better than others, but they all serve the same purpose and are generally similar.

So for this thought exercise let's pretend face Hunter plays a deck of 30 Arcane Shots.

Now, in this case, do you accept that Fel Reaver is good?
Your game IS going to end before fatigue. Having a few less cards in the deck (so long as you don't actually go to fatigue) is completely irrelevant.

I hope you accept at least this.

Now, keep in mind that Fel Reaver is and will always be used in AGGRO decks.

A general aggro deck (zoo, for example ) is a bit similar to face Hunter, but more diversified. Has some sturdy minions and some face damage.

So, in a similar fashion, we can say that this deck can be thought as having
-15 "deal x damage" spells
-15 "sturdy " minion which will either deal some damage or trade for a card.

So, think of a deck of 15 Arcane Shots and 15 Harvest Golems.

In this case, again,is it in any way important which cards are left in the deck in the end?

And from here, it's easy to understand why losing cards in an aggro deck isn't so bad.

It's not like "if I lose that one Hex I don't have an answer to Tirion".
It's "oh, that "deal 2 damage card" called XYZ is gone. Welp, I'll draw another one which does the same anyways!

otakuryoga

2014-12-23, 07:15 PM

so, funny play of the day...
i drop a Hogger
opponent casts blizzard and hero powers Hogger
i recombulate Hogger into....Hogger
opponent Flamestrikes

More of a general statement of confusion, in hopes that someone could explain why, exactly, people can't or won't use the math in this situation.
cause maths are HARD!

How can you even know that the order of a deck is decided at the beginning of a game? You can't touch your cards and there is no way to look at your deck, except, taking them from the top.

So, maybe, the game gives you random cards from your deck, which are determined whenever you draw or get to look at a card from the top of your deck.

doesn't change anything about chances of any particular card being milled/not milled

Murmaider

2014-12-23, 07:42 PM

doesn't change anything about chances of any particular card being milled/not milled

Yes, and? What side are you advocating here for, because I honestly don't know what to reply.

Bottom of your deck and top of your deck are exactly the same because they're random or might as well be because we can't know what they are.

Nerocite

2014-12-23, 09:57 PM

Finally got a GvG legendary, and it's Mogor. Ogre deck a go-go?

Hamste

2014-12-23, 10:09 PM

Pretty hilarious and Mogor gets rid of the other ogre's weakness but missing is annoying not lending itself to aggro or control. What would it be, rogue?

Mando Knight

2014-12-23, 10:10 PM

Discarding from the top or the bottom has ZERO difference. Accept it.

There is a difference, it's just not a useful one in Hearthstone, since players don't get to have the clairvoyance to know what the next several cards are in advance.

Now, if Fel Reaver directly attacked its owner's hand, that would be a bigger drawback: losing the options available in your hand is (card for card) a bigger issue than losing the options in your deck, since you can't access the latter options until you can draw them anyway.

AmberVael

2014-12-23, 10:24 PM

Hamste

2014-12-23, 11:20 PM

Hmmm, assuming we want to go all in for the ogre deck we need:

Ogre Magi x2
boulderfist ogre x2
ogre brute x2
ogre ninja x2
Mogre the Ogre
Gruul

so 8 cards set if we want to go full ogre (Ogre Magi isn't amazing and boulderfist has better thing in constructed but it is still has great stats). Notably all the stats are pretty good for their mana cost except the ogre Magi.

so
eviscerate x2
deadly poison x2
Perdition's blade x2
Blade Flurry
assassinate
sneed's old shredder (You just got your first GVG legendary so you don't have this)
Antique healbot x2
ragnaros
sylvanas
S.I. 7 agent x2
backstab x2
clockwork gnome
Goblin auto-barber x2

The general idea is for it to be very control oriented with S.I. 7, backstab, eviscerate, goblin autobarber, ogre brute and deadly poison to help keep board control. In a high aggro meta you may want to switch in another blade flurry for something else. The clockwork gnome is there mostly as a cheap activator for perdition's blade, eviscerate and S.I. 7 (not very many cheap activators sadly which is a bit worrisome), maybe switch in another clockwork gnome for an auto-barber. Once you get into the late game you start to finally capitalize on your large ogres and legendaries.
The curved comes out to be:
2 0 mana
3 1 mana
5 2 mana
6 3 mana
2 4 mana
5 5 mana
5 6 mana
2 8 mana

The deck isn't amazing but I can see it being somewhat useful. If you don't want to be one hundred percent faithful for to the concept switching out the ogre magi's for card draw is probably a good idea. If you don't have the legendaries late game card draw like azure drake might work as well along with some other tanky things (A single Fel Reaver for example, with so little draw decking yourself out is unlikely). Even with a card draw mechanic built in I can't see this being favorable against many of the stronger constructed concepts but it could be interesting.

Hircine

2014-12-24, 12:13 AM

Has anyone else noticed an increase of rush decks in arena?

Anxe

2014-12-24, 12:29 AM

Has anyone else noticed an increase of rush decks in arena?

Slightly? Mechwarper makes mech rush a really good strat. No major increase though.

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 12:30 AM

Has anyone else noticed an increase of rush decks in arena?

Yeah, it's easier to make one in my opinion.

Destro_Yersul

2014-12-24, 01:53 AM

Opened Bolvar Fordragon the other day. I'm happy with that, since I kind of want to try him out. Now I just need 2 each of Muster for Battle and Quartermaster.

RE: Fel Reaver, I had an opponent play one against me in Arena. I couldn't really answer it, but I had almost won, so I flooded the board and went for face. Won 2 turns later, and he still had cards in his deck when I did it, so Reaver's effect was essentially nil.

Joran

2014-12-24, 01:57 AM

Has anyone else noticed an increase of rush decks in arena?

The buzz on Reddit is that GvG added a lot of good early minions, but not much more expensive minions, including some must be answered early game cards like Micro Machine and the really good dust devil. Couple that with almost no board wipes in GvG, so decks should have fewer consecrates and flamestrikes, since GvG increased the card pool. Aggro is supposedly better because of this.

I've still been playing my regular board control, squeeze value out of my cards style and it's still working, but obviously, sample size issues.

Infernally Clay

2014-12-24, 10:29 AM

Insulting is indeed wrong, but seriously, you need to understand you are objectively wrong in this debate.

Discarding from the top or the bottom has ZERO difference. Accept it.

I could say you're the one objectively wrong. Discarding from the bottom or top is entirely different. One is what you were going to draw next turn, the other what you may never have drawn. Just because you didn't know what you were going to draw next doesn't change the order of the cards that you were. The only time there's no difference is if your opponent makes Fel Reaver kill your entire deck, which is the worst possible scenario.

As I said before, the only way to view Fel Reaver positively (or in the case of some of you, "omg best card evar") is to act as if every card in your deck is blank until drawn. To me, they're not and that's why I don't like the card. Just because I don't know the order my deck is in doesn't stop me from anticipating or figuring out the odds of drawing certain cards.

If Fel Reaver starts throwing away those cards I'm waiting for, obviously it does affect my chances to draw said cards. I can't draw a Doomguard if Fel Reaver throws them both away, can I? If Fel Reaver throws away my next nine cards and there's a 66% chance of either Doomguard being among them, obviously I was going to draw that card within a few turns but won't any more.

Except it didn't only throw away just one or both Doomguards did it? It threw away another seven on top. There's an almost 41% chance you've just lost, say, the Ironbeak Owl you were going to draw in the next few turns. In fact, pick any card left in that deck and there's between a 41% and 66% chance you've lost it. That could be Defender of Argus, Knife Juggler, Soulfire, Dire Wolf Alpha, you name it - and last I checked, they were kind of important for aggro decks to succeed and putting a card in your deck that's practically guaranteed to throw half of them away for an 8/8 body that won't even last long enough for you to use it is crazy.

Fel Reaver is hardly ideal in aggro decks, but at least you should have already won by the time it is played. It's totally useless in anything else, though.

Destro_Yersul

2014-12-24, 10:44 AM

Just because I don't know the order my deck is in doesn't stop me from anticipating or figuring out the odds of drawing certain cards.

The odds you will draw any given card next turn are identical to the odds that particular card is on the bottom of the deck. If anything, Fel Reaver makes it easier to tell what cards you will or won't draw by removing possibilities from the deck.

AmberVael

2014-12-24, 11:41 AM

As I said before, the only way to view Fel Reaver positively (or in the case of some of you, "omg best card evar")

I've already spoken my piece on Fel Reaver's mechanics, so I won't just rehash the same ground with you, but I want to clarify this part- I at least, do not think Fel Reaver is the best card ever. In fact, I don't even think Fel Reaver is a good card. However, my objection to Fel Reaver is not its drawback but rather its overall effect: I don't think it does quite enough for its various costs. If it had a bit more immediate impact (maybe if it were designed a bit more like Doomguard) I would snatch it up.

My main point of contention with you- and I think the main point of contention that other people have with you- is not whether Fel Reaver is good, but that milling your cards is a reasonable cost. And also how you're thinking about milling cards, because really it seems pretty perplexing. Honestly your perception of the issue confuses me, and I really, really can't understand it.

Here's one thing I will say- while I wouldn't precisely say that I view my undrawn cards as "blank," I would say that any face down, undrawn card is largely interchangeable with any other face down, undrawn card. It could be any card in my deck. Your view seems to hinge on the idea that the undrawn card could be something you need. To that I say... this is why you don't play Fel Reaver in a control or combo oriented deck. You don't play Fel Reaver in Freeze Mage, where it can toss out your massive direct damage or your life saving ice blocks. You don't play it in something like Miracle Rogue, where you need your Gadgetzan. You play it in a deck where any of your cards can get the job done. And Aggro is pretty capable of making a deck like that- you want aggro to be a bit more consistent in content, from what I understand of it (though I'll defer to someone more experienced with aggro since it is not my preferred style). You need to get that quick start and perfect curve, and make every card count- so basically all your cards need to be able to get the job done. Its not as much which card you get so much as getting cards that matters. And Fel Reaver doesn't normally impact getting cards (and by the time it does, your aggro deck had probably lost anyway).

Silfir

2014-12-24, 12:01 PM

I could say you're the one objectively wrong. Discarding from the bottom or top is entirely different. One is what you were going to draw next turn, the other what you may never have drawn. Just because you didn't know what you were going to draw next doesn't change the order of the cards that you were. The only time there's no difference is if your opponent makes Fel Reaver kill your entire deck, which is the worst possible scenario.

As I said before, the only way to view Fel Reaver positively (or in the case of some of you, "omg best card evar") is to act as if every card in your deck is blank until drawn. To me, they're not and that's why I don't like the card. Just because I don't know the order my deck is in doesn't stop me from anticipating or figuring out the odds of drawing certain cards.

If Fel Reaver starts throwing away those cards I'm waiting for, obviously it does affect my chances to draw said cards. I can't draw a Doomguard if Fel Reaver throws them both away, can I? If Fel Reaver throws away my next nine cards and there's a 66% chance of either Doomguard being among them, obviously I was going to draw that card within a few turns but won't any more.

Except it didn't only throw away just one or both Doomguards did it? It threw away another seven on top. There's an almost 41% chance you've just lost, say, the Ironbeak Owl you were going to draw in the next few turns. In fact, pick any card left in that deck and there's between a 41% and 66% chance you've lost it. That could be Defender of Argus, Knife Juggler, Soulfire, Dire Wolf Alpha, you name it - and last I checked, they were kind of important for aggro decks to succeed and putting a card in your deck that's practically guaranteed to throw half of them away for an 8/8 body that won't even last long enough for you to use it is crazy.

Fel Reaver is hardly ideal in aggro decks, but at least you should have already won by the time it is played. It's totally useless in anything else, though.

The crucial point that you might not yet have properly appreciated - you will hardly ever see even half of your deck unless your deck is built to do so. So it doesn't matter if a bunch of cards get eaten off the top, because it just means you get to the cards hidden deeper in the deck, and THOSE might be the cards you want instead, that you might otherwise have never seen. If there's a 41% chance to lose the card you want to Fel Reaver, that means there's also a 59% chance you just got three cards closer to drawing it. If you do all of the math with the information you have (which, in Hearthstone, is none - that's why we're treating the cards as "blank"), it comes out a wash. Hence Fel Reaver is card advantage neutral.

Decks that play for the long term obviously don't want Fel Reaver. Neither do combo decks (which are all mostly control decks anyway) or decks with cards that do care about you having stuff in your deck to draw from, such as Mad Scientist or Sense Demons.

But in decks that try to win with fast and would be lost long before the fatigue stage, it makes for a rather impressive beatstick at 8/8 for 5. It really, really doesn't have much of a drawback.

Probability math can be infuriatingly unintuitive. Read up on the Monty Hall Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem) sometime. I'm one of those who took rather a long time to wrap my head around the correct solution to it.

efdf

2014-12-24, 12:06 PM

An actual objection to Fel Reaver that someone can have and that you kind of hint at is that the discarded cards are discarded face up, so your opponent knows what tools are no longer available to you. As in your example, if you discard two Doomguards then your opponent no longer has to play around them. The rest of it is just rehashing concepts that are objectively false, and there's really not much more anyone can add to the conversation because all of your points have already been addressed a long time ago.

AmberVael

2014-12-24, 12:36 PM

Probability math can be infuriatingly unintuitive. Read up on the Monty Hall Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem) sometime. I'm one of those who took rather a long time to wrap my head around the correct solution to it.

That one is confusing. It took me a while to figure it out too.

So hey, on the subject of Fel Reaver discarding stuff, I'm curious to learn one thing- how many cards do people expect Fel Reaver to mill on average?

Hamste

2014-12-24, 12:53 PM

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 02:17 PM

Played on turn 5? Depends, I would go with 6-9 seeing most things that remove it are 3-4 mana leaving little mana left over. If it survives two turns against a non-aggro deck I would guess 9-12 (Assuming they try to play exactly on curve). Against an aggro deck I have no idea.

I've got a few in Arena, and I'm running one in my Arena right now (had an option for a second, but took Shade of Naxx because two is just too risky IMO - the second one is very likely to do more damage than good), and I usually get milled between three and seven times, with the averaging hanging around four. I don't play it against a full hand against Mage because of their many options to freeze, nor Paladin, where Peacekeeper or Humility can greatly reduce its effectiveness. Most of the time though, it's a nice addition to the generally aggressive run.

Probability math can be infuriatingly unintuitive. Read up on the Monty Hall Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem) sometime. I'm one of those who took rather a long time to wrap my head around the correct solution to it.

One way I find helps is reducing the problem something that is intuitive. In the case of milling, that is a simple example with few cards and thus easily calculated probabilities. The results support my conclusion, which is that the chance of milling a given card is precisely counteracted by the increase in probability of drawing said card if you do not mill it. This leads to the probability of drawing any given card remaining identical. This was promptly ignored by Infernally Clay (along with other past attempts at explaining), so I'm considering writing (him? her?) off as a lost cause.

In the case of Monty Hall, simply writing the possibilities is the easiest way, in my opinion, as it is such a small set of possibilities that this is practical without reducing to a smaller example. This page (http://math.ucsd.edu/~crypto/Monty/montybg.html) has a rather good chart, in my opinion.

Gandariel

2014-12-24, 02:24 PM

Tectonic Robot

2014-12-24, 02:25 PM

Pretty hilarious and Mogor gets rid of the other ogre's weakness but missing is annoying not lending itself to aggro or control. What would it be, rogue?

Actually, Mogor makes their drawback worse. It gives them an extra chance to miss.

He's hilarious and perfect, though. Run him in all of your decks.

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 02:42 PM

Actually, Mogor makes their drawback worse. It gives them an extra chance to miss.

He's hilarious and perfect, though. Run him in all of your decks.

Except if you double-trigger, it functions as a single trigger, so you inhibit the regular minions more than ogres :smalltongue:

Tectonic Robot

2014-12-24, 02:47 PM

Except if you double-trigger, it functions as a single trigger, so you inhibit the regular minions more than ogres :smalltongue:

The ogres technically have a higher chance the regular guys of activating, unless you're saying increasing to 75% chance of misfire is less bad than increasing from 0% to 50%?

Anyway, Fel Reaver: If your opponent has no answer, you win. If your opponent has an answer, you're kinda sad. If you're opponent has a really really good answer, you lose the game. That's how it works, yeah?

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 02:52 PM

The ogres technically have a higher chance the regular guys of activating, unless you're saying increasing to 75% chance of misfire is less bad than increasing from 0% to 50%?

Yeah, 50 to 75 is only +25%, and you can just count on them being random. 0 to 50 is +50%, and it's very random-within-random, which makes it more confusing :smalltongue:

Gandariel

2014-12-24, 02:53 PM

It's more like:

If the opponent has a situational and strong answer (Freeze/Aldoor/wall'o'taunts), you lose the game.

If he has a good answer, it's pretty sad too, since in this type of deck you're not really running many high cost dudes.

If he doesn't have an immediate answer (and can't play enough cards to make the drawback matter) this sets you in a really really good position, if not outright winning you the game.

Qwertystop

2014-12-24, 03:45 PM

Hm. If an Ogre double-randoms, can they attack their original?

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 03:49 PM

Hm. If an Ogre double-randoms, can they attack their original?

Huh, good point. That'd actually make it even better, as Mogor would cause ogres to have somewhat less than 75% chance of missing, depending on how many enemies there are (75-25/(# enemies-1). So if there are only two, it's 50%, if there are 3, 62.5%, 4, 68.75%...)

Ionbound

2014-12-24, 04:46 PM

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 04:56 PM

Hrm...I had an idea. HandShaman, based on getting those cheap mountain/molten giants, then giving them windfury with Windspeaker and Windfury. Any thoughts? Would this even work? How would you build it?

Unfortunately, shaman doesn't have much in the way of card draw or stall. Mage is good because it's got Ice Block, Ice Barrier, Frost Nova, Cone of Cold, Blizzard, Arcane Intellect, and can ping Acolyte. Warlock is good because its hero power is free draws, and it's got Jarraxus. The idea of big guy + windfury, though, is totally viable. Maybe Fel Reaver? :smalltongue: Failing that, Rockbiter and Flametongues can do wonders, as can an aggro deck with Micro Machine.

...on that note, I should probably switch the Windspeaker in my aggro deck for Windfury :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael

2014-12-24, 06:13 PM

I just nearly pulled of 12-0 with a paladin arena. I went to 11-0... then just barely lost twice in a row (if they hadn't managed to kill me, I would have had both of them dead the very next turn- and both of them got lucky and top decked the things they needed to win). But I did at least get to 12-2.

My decklist was pretty insane:
Avenge x1
Worgen Infiltrator x1
Young Priestess x1
Zombie Chow x2
Argent Protector x1
Puddlestomper x1
Ship's Cannon x1
Muster For Battle x1
Acolyte of Pain x1
Imp Master x1
Scarlet Purifier x1
Truesilver Champion x3
Blessing of Kings x4
Consecration x2
Hammer of Wrath x1
Cult Master x1
Piloted Shredder x1
Frostwolf Warlord x1
Silverhand Knight x2
Ravenholdt Assassin x1
Stormwind Champion x1
Lay On Hands x1

My mana curve definitely spikes at four... but I honestly didn't care. The ease of getting control or at least minions that stuck to the board meant that I always had targets for blessing of kings, and that basically secured every single game. If I had to go aggressive, Ravenholdt would generally kick in for the final push, and if they actually got a board presence I could normally wipe it with truesilvers and consecrates.
My wins were brutal up until those final games.

D-naras

2014-12-24, 06:15 PM

Hrm...I had an idea. HandShaman, based on getting those cheap mountain/molten giants, then giving them windfury with Windspeaker and Windfury. Any thoughts? Would this even work? How would you build it?

I've tried a version with stealthed minions. Specifically, the Shade and the 2 tigers. It was a pile of removal, rockbiter weapons, totems, doomhammer and windfury. Tons of fun but totally unreliable.

r2d2go

2014-12-24, 07:00 PM

3-1 in arena right now. Got Fel Reaver, again :smalltongue: went to fatigue because of it for the first time, but I ended up winning anyway.

Zevox

2014-12-25, 12:53 AM

Hrm...I had an idea. HandShaman, based on getting those cheap mountain/molten giants, then giving them windfury with Windspeaker and Windfury. Any thoughts? Would this even work? How would you build it?
Well, besides the obvious Giants/Drakes/taunt-givers, a "Hand-" deck needs a few things:

Most importantly, card draw. Handlock gets this from their hero power, Handmage gets it from Arcane Intellect, Acolyte of Pain, Duplicate, and sort of Mad Scientist. Shaman? Well, they have Mana Tide Totem, which can be insane card draw, but usually isn't. It typically needs to be hidden behind taunts to stay alive, and even then the opponent will often opt to kill it with a removal spell or silence if they can't get the free attack - or take it out incidentally with AoE. Other than that, they've got nothing unusually good for card draw - they could run things like Loot Hoarder or Azure Drake, but those just replace themselves, not fill up your hand. So, that's an issue.

Another is that they need a way to survive getting to low health to use Molten Giants. Taunt-givers are one, but more is preferable. Handlock has Jaraxxus, Siphon Soul, and ERF (or Antique Healbot now). Handmage has Ice Block and Alexstraza - potentially Duplicated Alexstraza, even. Shaman? Could run things like Alexstraza, ERF, Antique Healbot, or Vitality Totem, but without a source of bigger card draw they're more likely to run into situations where having some of those useless in their hand is leaving them with too few options. Plus Alexstraza works poorly with overload cards, which such a Shaman would probably run at least have a few of.

Another is removal to handle threats when they don't have Giants/Drakes out, and that Shaman has plenty of, at least.

Thrawn183

2014-12-25, 11:14 AM

Probability math can be infuriatingly unintuitive. Read up on the Monty Hall Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem) sometime. I'm one of those who took rather a long time to wrap my head around the correct solution to it.

Oh man, I had meant to post this but I couldn't remember the name beyond "The Three Doors with Goats and a Car Game Show Thing." Don't feel bad if it took a while for it to click, when I was an undergrad we spent almost an entire class going over it and others like it in my Mathematics of Games and Gambling seminar and probably half the class took a really long time to really understand it.

Hamste

2014-12-25, 11:40 AM

I loved that problem, my friend explained that to me awhile ago. It is important to remember that the original guess had a 1 in 3 chance of being the right one and a 2 in 3 chance of being the wrong one. They always show one of the wrong answers so there is a 2 in 3 chance of the final one being right. If they showed the right answer as well then it doesn't matter but they do. It was quite an oddity and has now made it so I can never watch the show again as I feel a disproportionate amount of annoyance at someone not switching now.

Avilan the Grey

2014-12-25, 12:55 PM

Okay... I started playing again after 6 months and... I suck.

I need serious deck building tips, my rogue deck can't defeat a single AI on Expert anymore. Keep in mind I basically only have basic cards and common cards...

Hamste

2014-12-25, 01:02 PM

Avilan the Grey

2014-12-25, 01:14 PM

What do you currently run? If you wish, I can play you with a basic deck and give you some tips.. Never mind, I use the US server so we can't play each other (There is no way I am going through that tutorial again) but I'm happy to give suggestions if you need them.

Well either the AIs have been updated completely or the new cards are throwing my deck completely out of whack. Basically I want tips for a semi-basic deck build for rogues (to start with) that can at least handle the AI. As it is now I have tried to beat the paladin 23 times and never get him down to less than half health before I die and the priest is almost as bad.

Thrawn183

2014-12-25, 01:53 PM

Well either the AIs have been updated completely or the new cards are throwing my deck completely out of whack. Basically I want tips for a semi-basic deck build for rogues (to start with) that can at least handle the AI. As it is now I have tried to beat the paladin 23 times and never get him down to less than half health before I die and the priest is almost as bad.

Well, here's my Mech Rogue I'm currently running. I should note, it has no epics or legendaries.

2x Backstab
2x Deadly Poison
2x Clockwork Gnome
2x Cogmaster
2x Annoy-o-Tron
2x Goblin Auto-Barber
2x Mechwarper
Micromachine
2x Harvest Golem
2x Iron Sensei
2x Spider Tank
Tinkertown Technician
2x Jeeves
2x Mechanical Yeti
Piloted Shredder
Assassin's Blade
Assassinate
Sprint

Commons: 19
Rares: 4

Avilan the Grey

2014-12-25, 02:01 PM

Well, here's my Mech Rogue I'm currently running. I should note, it has no epics or legendaries.

2x Backstab
2x Deadly Poison
2x Clockwork Gnome
2x Cogmaster
2x Annoy-o-Tron
2x Goblin Auto-Barber
2x Mechwarper
Micromachine
2x Harvest Golem
2x Iron Sensei
2x Spider Tank
Tinkertown Technician
2x Jeeves
2x Mechanical Yeti
Piloted Shredder
Assassin's Blade
Assassinate
Sprint

Commons: 19
Rares: 4

Thanks!
I'll give it a try later and report back! :smallsmile:

Qwertystop

2014-12-25, 03:00 PM

I just Recombobulated an Ironbeak Owl and got a Millhouse!

r2d2go

2014-12-25, 10:34 PM

I just Recombobulated an Ironbeak Owl and got a Millhouse!

I actually saw someone pull off Sky Golem -> Shredder, as well as Shredder -> Millhouse :smalltongue: unfortunately, it was not the same chain...

Hamste

2014-12-25, 10:54 PM

I actually saw someone pull off Sky Golem -> Shredder, as well as Shredder -> Millhouse :smalltongue: unfortunately, it was not the same chain...

Nothing like sneed into sneed into sneed.

Mando Knight

2014-12-25, 11:11 PM

Nothing like sneed into sneed into sneed.

Mind if I roll Sneed? :smalltongue:

Zevox

2014-12-25, 11:13 PM

Nothing like sneed into sneed into sneed.
Sneed into Kel'Thuzad.

r2d2go

2014-12-26, 12:27 AM

I think the worst wombo I've ever faced in Arena is Kel'thuzad into Reincarnate, with a Cairne on the board.

Destro_Yersul

2014-12-26, 05:34 AM

Finally broke down and crafted a second Molten Giant, and now I'm experimenting with Handlock, mostly using Trump's version but with Sneed's Old Shredder instead of Dr. Boom, because I don't have Dr. Boom. So far it's really fun to play, and surprisingly durable despite all the tapping. I'm not sure I've got the best plays down yet, but I'm working on it. Making my opponents face Jarraxus is great fun.

TechnoWarforged

2014-12-26, 03:49 PM

CantigThimble

2014-12-26, 04:40 PM

Zevox

2014-12-26, 06:00 PM

Need some advice from the forums

I have 500+ dust.

Should I just craft all the GvG commons, or save up to craft Legendaries?

Currently these are the legendaries I got: Ragnaros (crafted), Lerroy, Velen, Rivendare, Feugen, Stalagg, Cairne, Maexxena, Loatheb, Kel'thuzad.

Also what Legendary should I craft next?
I prefer to avoid crafting commons, since they're so easy to collect from packs, but if there's specific ones you could really use, it's not a bad idea to pick them up.

As for legendaries, depends on what you want to play. In your position, I'd be looking to grab Ysera, Sylvanas, or Sneed's Old Shredder, since they're the best late-game legendaries for control decks you don't have, and aren't class-specific. If you greatly favor a specific class though, grabbing its class legendary might be better. And if you favor a different play style or have your eye on a specific deck, something else might be better.

Anxe

2014-12-26, 10:19 PM

I've gotten about 30 packs for GVG so far and have 9 missing commons out of the 80 common cards I can get (this is counting duplicates, so I have about 35 doubles and 5 commons I have zero copies of). That should give you an inication of how soon it'll be before you get the commons you want.

Adrastos42

2014-12-27, 12:37 PM

Mind if I roll Sneed? :smalltongue:

Thread title?

-D-

2014-12-27, 12:58 PM

I tried playing Hearthstone after a pause, by Gods do I have to grind a bloody lot. I still don't have non-Nerubian wings open :( Is there any non-tedious way, as in takes less than three months to open the wings?

And no, I can't pay for them either.

Ionbound

2014-12-27, 01:04 PM

Welcome to Blizzard games, where anything that you want to get done takes at least a month of steady playing.

r2d2go

2014-12-27, 01:42 PM

Gandariel

2014-12-27, 01:54 PM

There are many decks that are almost free to make (ie, mostly having Commons and Rares).

You can (if you're willing to invest the time) reach legend with budget decks, as it has been done plenty of times already.

So yeah, you really can't complain about it that much.

Of course, if want to use more and more decks, you have to grind for it, but i frankly can't complain with the state of the f2p-ness of this game

Weimann

2014-12-27, 04:45 PM

Hearthstone's F2P-with-micro transactions model is certainly among the more fair ones. You can't buy anything you couldn't get by putting in play time, so what you buy is essentially an acceleration. That seems fair to me, but as noted, it does mean the core game has to be a bit grindy. Then again, the only way to grind is to play the main game, which you presumably enjoy, so I at least find it ok.

ShinyRocks

2014-12-28, 01:36 PM

I've been having crazy luck with GvG packs. Out of 5 packs (I think), I've got 3 legendaries. Okay, they were Flame Leviathan, Mogor The Ogre and Bolvar, but still! Legendaries! I'm tempted to dust Leviathan because I can't see a deck where it would work. And Bolvar because screw Paladin, I will never ever play you.

Things that are fun:
Having Shadowboxer on the board while your opponent has Healing Stream Totem out.
Having your opponent emote well played because they've got Deathwing on the board and you're on 12 health so dead the next round, except then you play Velen and take yourself to 16, and then they Hex Velen and them using Deathwing to kill the frog gives you the one extra turn you need to topdeck SW:Death.

Recaiden

2014-12-28, 02:55 PM

Recombobulating your silenced Kel-thuzad into Ragnaros.

r2d2go

2014-12-28, 05:54 PM

Recombobulating your silenced Kel-thuzad into Ragnaros.

I recently fought a priest who used Shrinkmaster-Cabal Shadow Priest to steal my Cairne, then next turn, attacked into my Druid of the Claw before Recombobulating the 4/1 CSP into another Cairne. I ended up winning in the end, though :smalltongue:

TechnoWarforged

2014-12-28, 10:10 PM

I had a Really Weird Arena Run Today:

I picked the first Wild Growth due to the lack of choice, and then I said what the heck and picked up my second wild Growth... and then I picked up another Wild Growth! Plus I have one Grove Tender. I ended up with a ramp druid deck that went 4/3. I think I could have won more games if I'm willing to drop Ysaras faster; every time I dreamt the world trembled I won the game.

Destro_Yersul

2014-12-30, 01:04 AM

I just lost a game to a guy who drafted at least Five fire elementals. I'm not even mad.

Joran

2014-12-30, 01:43 AM

In honor of this thread title, my arena deck features Deathwing. Currently, 6-1 and it's pretty ridiculous; I've won 5 games off the back of that dragon. All 5 times, I've played it safe and grinded out their hand so it was empty or they had dropped all their big minions on the board.

It's not like you should try to play around Deathwing...

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-12-30, 01:54 AM

I just lost a game to a guy who drafted at least Five fire elementals. I'm not even mad.
I am equal parts madly jealous and very impressed at the audacity of that luck.

Rosstin

2014-12-30, 04:00 PM

silly RNG mage: http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/2qu24b/hit_legend_again_with_my_rng_synergy_mage/

how are you guys feeling about the tourney?

Hamste

2014-12-30, 04:36 PM

I'm good for it but I'm still haven't decided if I want to update my deck to be more anti-aggro or not.

Anxe

2014-12-30, 04:37 PM

I was thinking we should start up the matches either this weekend or next. I also need to find the right deck for it. I just got Mal'Ganis soooo.... Might be going Demonlock.

Frog Dragon

2014-12-30, 04:39 PM

Today on arena. Opponent plays Sneed's Old Shredder, 2 for 1s with the Shredder, and gets Mal'Ganis from the deathrattle.

I still won, mainly due to topdecked Poison Seeds.

Zevox

2014-12-30, 11:49 PM

My first-ever use of my recently crafted Recombobulator: turning my 2/1 Defender of Argus into a Sen'jin Shieldmasta. Feels good. :smallsmile:

Rosstin

2014-12-31, 12:50 AM

weird druid deck i'm rolling: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/AsterAzul/antihunter.jpg

r2d2go

2014-12-31, 02:37 AM

My first-ever use of my recently crafted Recombobulator: turning my 2/1 Defender of Argus into a Sen'jin Shieldmasta. Feels good. :smallsmile:

Recombobulator is pretty great :smallbiggrin: I think it's best in Priest, where Shadow Madness and naturally health-leaning minions, as well as Cabal Shadow Priest, make great recombobulations. I've considered running it in my ramp druid against heavy aggro, though - Ancient of Lore and War both make great targets.

Zevox

2014-12-31, 03:11 AM

Recombobulator is pretty great :smallbiggrin: I think it's best in Priest, where Shadow Madness and naturally health-leaning minions, as well as Cabal Shadow Priest, make great recombobulations. I've considered running it in my ramp druid against heavy aggro, though - Ancient of Lore and War both make great targets.
I'm trying it as a one-of in Handlock. The deck has a few minions that make good targets for it immediately: Defender of Argus, Antique Healbot (which I am only running one of at this time - not willing to give up that other ERF just yet - but we'll see), and to a lesser extent Ironbeak Owl. But it's of course also good at healing injured Giants, or converting a badly-injured Twilight Drake into something else. Or hell, I could even try it on one of Jaraxxus' Infernals, which technically are cost 6 minions - wouldn't be too hard to get something better than a vanilla 6/6 out of that. There's a pretty good number of decent to great legendaries at that cost, after all.

Rosstin

2014-12-31, 03:14 AM

I made a deck based on Wailing Soul in Druid. I'm playing Fel Reaver. It's actually really good! I have a better than 50% winrate so far.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/AsterAzul/wed.jpg

Rosstin #1609, I'm playing it now. Almost Rank 3 :O

Edit: Got to Rank 3! :O

omg i already met someone who is copying me haha

Edit edit: Latest version: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/AsterAzul/wd5.jpg

Weimann

2014-12-31, 08:28 PM

I've been playing around with a Holy Priest today and I've got to say, Light of the Naaru is pretty spectacular. With an Auchenai Soulpriest it's a 1 mana 3 damage spell that gives you a free Lightwarden. Previously, I would play Auchenai Soulpriest at turn 6 to get some value out of it with the Hero Power. With the AS + LotN combo it's 1 damage more on one turn earlier, which actually is pretty huge. And sometimes you actually want the heal, too. I think they're better than Holy Smite in many cases.

Shadowboxer is a good if slightly more mediocre card. Mostly they're value in the early game. You can pull off some pretty neat combos though, but it's very situational.

I'm also running a Recombobulator and my experiences so far have been really good. I only have the one yet, but I think I'll craft one since I have a lot of spare dust (I impulse-bought way too many packs and called it a Christmas gift to myself).

I feel like GvG improved my options for a Holy Priest. Of course, I'm still only rank 19, but I think there's potential to reach at least the lower middle of the ladder there. More importantly, it's a pretty satisfying playstyle where you have to think and puzzle a bit. I quite like it.

Weimann

2014-12-31, 08:39 PM

Rosstin

2015-01-01, 01:16 AM

I don't silence Fel Reaver on the same turn I play it so it typically burns about 9 cards.

Joran

2015-01-01, 02:14 AM

ShinyRocks

2015-01-01, 07:19 AM

In an arena draft, I had the choice of: Ancient Watcher, Secret Keeper, or Target Dummy. I picked Target Dummy and it's... not terrible. Sure, I'm throwing a card away, but tempo-wise, it works well. Since it takes 0 mana and I can use it to protect valuable things like my Cult Master or delay a single large minion, it's never awkward to play. I also have 2 Tinkertown Technicians, so it combos with that. I was surprised at how not terrible it is.

I had a Shaman play opponent play turn one Coin, Whirling Zap-o-Matic and Target Dummy. That was a pretty brutal opener - combined with some board clear he had, I just couldn't get to it and he pretty much destroyed me. I didn't pull into any spells, and 6 damage to the face per turn from turn 2 adds up - especially when he added in Rockbiter and Flametongue. I think that's where it's best - getting an early minion to stick a bit longer.

I've been playing around with a Holy Priest today and I've got to say, Light of the Naaru is pretty spectacular. With an Auchenai Soulpriest it's a 1 mana 3 damage spell that gives you a free Lightwarden. Previously, I would play Auchenai Soulpriest at turn 6 to get some value out of it with the Hero Power. With the AS + LotN combo it's 1 damage more on one turn earlier, which actually is pretty huge. And sometimes you actually want the heal, too. I think they're better than Holy Smite in many cases.

Shadowboxer is a good if slightly more mediocre card. Mostly they're value in the early game. You can pull off some pretty neat combos though, but it's very situational.

Light of the Naaru is amazing. It's also another option to get an Injured Blademaster out. If you don't have Circle, you'll end up dropping it as 4/3 or waiting til you can heal it on turn 5, but this way you get a 4/6 and a Lightwarden on turn 4 (3 with Coin). I've also used it as a face heal against very aggressive decks.

I like Shadowboxer a lot too, although this morning he's been very disobedient. He keeps hitting the opponent's face, when there's Divine Shields to pop and 1 health minions to kill.

Qwertystop

2015-01-01, 02:51 PM

I just ran into someone using Stoneskin Gargoyle semi-effectively - a Priest hit it with Velen's Chosen, and I couldn't get rid of it until I drew hard removal.

Zevox

2015-01-01, 04:12 PM

I just ran into someone using Stoneskin Gargoyle semi-effectively - a Priest hit it with Velen's Chosen, and I couldn't get rid of it until I drew hard removal.
That's no different than any other possible play comboing it with buffs - vulnerable to silence and hard removal, and the Gargoyle is terrible if you don't draw the buffs. Your opponent got lucky that he drew the both and you lacked an answer, that's all.

Joran

2015-01-01, 05:26 PM

I just ran into someone using Stoneskin Gargoyle semi-effectively - a Priest hit it with Velen's Chosen, and I couldn't get rid of it until I drew hard removal.

I saw someone use it in Druid with Mark of Nature, making a 1/8 unkillable annoyance. I eventually stole it with a Cabal Shadow Priest and he got to experience the annoyance.

P.S. Piloted Shredder is just trolling me. Twice, it's given me Nat Pagle and twice it's given me Doomsayer (when I had board control both times), and a Novice Engineer another time.

TechnoWarforged

2015-01-02, 12:45 AM

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/lonewanderer666/Hearthstone_Screenshot_112015172409_zps71ebc4ed.pn g (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/lonewanderer666/media/Hearthstone_Screenshot_112015172409_zps71ebc4ed.pn g.html)

This is what happens when you use voidwalker to trigger mirror entity, and then have it triggered duplicated when you tried to kill it, and then have your opponent play Kel'thazaud the next turn...

Zevox

2015-01-02, 01:51 AM

Yesterday's pack: Crush
Today's pack: Shieldmaiden (second copy)

I think the RNG might be trying to get me to tinker with my Control Warrior. Though if it really wants that, it should throw a Bouncing Blade my way - definitely want to try that thing out.

Too bad for it I'm more enjoying playing Handlock recently though. Especially when I get to play Jaraxxus - which unfortunately wasn't often today, mostly due to not drawing him. Though I did win one Handlock mirror with him, which was pretty satisfying.

Tectonic Robot

2015-01-02, 02:43 AM

http://i.imgur.com/Q2unZ5K.jpg

*Gross chortling in the distance*

Hamste

2015-01-02, 10:34 AM

I would laugh so hard if mogor accidentally made you kill the mad scientist which summoned an ice block and then forced all the other attacks on the character.

Tectonic Robot

2015-01-02, 12:35 PM

I would laugh so hard if mogor accidentally made you kill the mad scientist which summoned an ice block and then forced all the other attacks on the character.

That man was out of secrets ages ago! But yes, that would have been extremely funny.

otakuryoga

2015-01-02, 01:49 PM

i do not know how..but in arena today my priest was actually able to beat a warlock that summoned:
4 of the 6/6 do 1 damage to everyone when summoned (yeah..mindfarting on the name)
1 floating watcher
1 5/7 charger (which thankfully discarded ANOTHER 6/6 AND ANOTHER floating watcher)
2 6/7 ogres
and 1 force tank max(which i had to kill by running a yeti into and playing the holy hand grenade)

i was able to hold out til end..he had an ogre, his last 6/6 demon, and 4 other small guys
he had just killed my dancing sword(drawing his last card and playing the critter it gave him)
he is at 7
i had northshire cleric on board and holy fire in hand so i hit him for 1, holy fire'd him, and let him die to exhaustion :smallcool:

------
oh, and Hearthstone is down at the moment

Anxe

2015-01-02, 02:31 PM

No one else has said anything on when they think the Tourney should start besides Rosstin and me, so I'm just gonna declare it starts on Friday January 9th. The rules are posted on the Google sheet, but I'll repeat them here again.

One deck for the whole tourney! No changing or modifying the deck once you've picked what you're using.
A match is a best of 3. You get points based on your record in a match.
4 points for winning 2-0.
3 points for winning 2-1.
2 points for losing 1-2.
1 point for losing 0-2.
You only get points for the first 5 matches you complete. You may continue to play matches after that, but you only get 0.1 point regardless of your record. This is intended to serve as a tiebreaker and to give opponents to people who don't complete their matches in the initial rush.
After two weeks on January 23rd, the four participants with the highest points will move on to the semi-finals. If points are an insufficient tiebreaker, the current record within this tournament will be used to decide who moves on. If the people in the tiebreaker have not played each other then they will play a best of three match with their deck to decide who moves on to the semi-finals.
The semi-finals used the same of format. Best of three using the same deck as before. Seed 1 plays Seed 3 and Seed 2 plays Seed 4 in the semi-finals.

Gandariel, Graymage, and myself are volunteering as commentators for the tournament (And anyone else is welcome to join in). If you'd like a match to be streamed over Twitch and uploaded to Youtube for people to watch later let me know. Skype is probably the best method. My username is Anxe322 on Skype. Say something about the tourney in your first message so I don't confuse you for spam. I won't be available 24/7 to stream games, but I'll do what I can.

Finally, if the Europe players want to start a tournament, feel free to add another page to the Google form Rosstin's made and just keep track there.

Good luck!

Hamste

2015-01-02, 02:38 PM

Sounds good to me.

Volthawk

2015-01-02, 02:41 PM

So ogres can attack the wrong target when they trigger Noble Sacrifice, leaving the 2/1 defender on the board. Didn't know that until it just happened.

Xiander

2015-01-02, 04:22 PM

So, I just managed to reach 12 arena wins for the first time. It feels pretty good.
I got almost 500 gold and a pack for my troubles, add to that that the pack held Flame leviathan and Enhanceo mechanic.
I feel pretty good about the whole thing.

Not surpricingly my deck was a mage deck, with two lamestrikes, a blizzard, two fireballs and two polymorphs. No threat stayed on the board for long.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-02, 04:39 PM

Anxe

2015-01-02, 04:55 PM

I'll have to see if I want to join. My NA account doesn't have quite as much in terms of cards, so I'm not sure I could make a competent deck on the NA, and the Europe doesn't have the tourney. Though, I had an idea for a question.

Assuming in arena you were drafting a Mage deck and had the choice between a War Golem and a Flame Leviathan (assuming this was a possible choice), which would you pick?

I typically draft heavily in the 2 and 3 mana region. Establishing early board presence is often what wins an Arena game. Thos minions often don't survive a Flame Leviathan, but neither do my opponent's. So... I guess it depends on how much I've focused on that 2-3 mana region up to that point in the draft. If I've got more 4 and 5 mana stuff then I'd feel much more comfortable taking the Leviathan. Plus the Leviathan is a mech and War Golem isn't. Triggers my Blastmage if I got one!

Rosstin

2015-01-02, 05:06 PM

Thanks for taking charge, Anxe! I can't wait for the tourney.

I'm tweaking my Wailing Druid, this is my current list. I'd like to try and take it to Legend. My strategy is to generate really really tough minions that trade well as early in the game as possible, then close things out with the Savage Roar / Force of Nature combo.

In the latest incarnation, I'm testing a version where I remove the stealth minions (Raging Worgen and Gilblin Stalker) and replace them with Power of the Wild, King Mukla, and an Echoing Ooze. I took out one Ancient of Lore and replaced it with a Coldlight Oracle and Sea Giant.

I figure Power of the Wild is nearly as good as Savage Roar. Yeah, there's a slight chance I'll silence the buff off my minions and then weep uncontrollably, but I figure if I have a bunch of buffed minions running around I'm probably pretty happy.

I'm not sure Mukla will be good enough, getting stabbed in the back by your own minions sucks. In my weaker moments I was tempted to add Millhouse Manastorm with Loathab and Cho though, so Mukla can't be nearly that bad.

Ogre Brutes are downright amazing, by the way. They're random hit thing is a downside, but it's not a big downside. And if you really want precision for lethal or something you can silence them.

Innervate
Innervate
Zombie Chow
Zombie Chow
Ancient Watcher
Ancient Watcher
Power of the Wild
Power of the Wild
Echoing Ooze
Ironbeak Owl
Ironbeak Owl
Coldlight Oracle
Savage Roar
Savage Roar
Dancing Swords
Ogre Brute
Ogre Brute
King Mukla
Swipe
Swipe
Keeper of the Grove
Keeper of the Grove
Wailing Soul
Wailing Soul
Fel Reaver
Fel Reaver
Force of Nature
Force of Nature
Ancient of Lore
Sea Giant

Innervate
Innervate
Worgen Infiltrator
Zombie Chow
Zombie Chow
Ancient Watcher
Ancient Watcher
Gilblin Stalker
Gilblin Stalker
Ironbeak Owl
Ironbeak Owl
Savage Roar
Savage Roar
Dancing Swords
Dancing Swords
Ogre Brute
Ogre Brute
Swipe
Swipe
Keeper of the Grove
Keeper of the Grove
Spellbreaker
Wailing Soul
Wailing Soul
Fel Reaver
Fel Reaver
Force of Nature
Force of Nature
Ancient of Lore
Ancient of Lore

We have 7 people confirmed as registered for the Tourney, so we should be ready to go even if we don't get any more people. I think 7 is just enuff. But I'm sure we'll get some more applicants once the ball is rolling.

Zevox

2015-01-02, 05:16 PM

Assuming in arena you were drafting a Mage deck and had the choice between a War Golem and a Flame Leviathan (assuming this was a possible choice), which would you pick?
War Golem. Flame Leviathan's effect is too much of a risk.

Rosstin

2015-01-02, 07:46 PM

I dig this guy's style, he has weird RNGie decks

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/2qu24b/hit_legend_again_with_my_rng_synergy_mage/

r2d2go

2015-01-03, 01:14 AM

War Golem. Flame Leviathan's effect is too much of a risk.

Depends on what I'm running, IMO. If I have a very control-y, late game Arena deck, Flame Leviathan. It's very unlikely to hurt, especially since you draw before you play, and sometimes it will save me. And even if it does reduce the advantage I have, I know it's in my deck, so it's very unlikely to take me from ahead to behind. And if I'm ahead, it probably won't hurt, because hey, control deck, all I need to do is survive the early game.

On the other hand, if I have a highly aggressive deck, War Golem. It's probably not going to do great, but Flame Leviathan is worse than a dead card in an aggressive arena deck, since it can bring me from ahead to behind, and probably will.

In general, for mid-range style stuff... Meh, I'd probably take Flame Leviathan anyway, but it depends on how much AoE I've drafted. The fact remains that you can play around it, while your opponent doesn't know it's in your deck. If I've already drafted a few AoEs, I'd probably chuck it, but most of the time it will be in your favor, since you know it's there and your opponent does not.

Tectonic Robot

2015-01-03, 01:34 AM

I'd pick Flame Leviathan, easy. Its way flashier and you can play around it better than your opponent can.

CantigThimble

2015-01-03, 01:43 AM

I'd base my decision on the number of 2 health minions I had or expected to have by the end. You simply need 2 drops no matter what and if flame leviathan will kill 5-6 cards in your deck it's probably not worth it.

Zevox

2015-01-03, 02:13 AM

[...] most of the time it will be in your favor, since you know it's there and your opponent does not.
I'd argue just the reverse: if simply having it in your deck forces you to play around it, it's hurting you much more than your opponent unless it happens to get drawn at a great time, because you're constantly being forced to avoid plays that may otherwise be optimal, but leave you vulnerable to your own card. That is, if anything, one of the worst parts of Flame Leviathan.

Gandariel

2015-01-03, 05:23 AM

I dig this guy's style, he has weird RNGie decks

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/2qu24b/hit_legend_again_with_my_rng_synergy_mage/

Interesting idea... but why two Kirin Tor Mages? Also, i'd ditch Bomb Lobber for something stronger, like Sylvanas or Belchers.

efdf

2015-01-03, 08:46 AM

I'd argue just the reverse: if simply having it in your deck forces you to play around it, it's hurting you much more than your opponent unless it happens to get drawn at a great time, because you're constantly being forced to avoid plays that may otherwise be optimal, but leave you vulnerable to your own card. That is, if anything, one of the worst parts of Flame Leviathan.

That doesn't make any sense. The way you have it set up, your opponent is not playing around Flame Leviathan, and you are, therefore your opponent has an advantage. However, if you accept this as true, you could simply not play around Flame Leviathan too, and your opponent's advantage is gone. You're not avoiding optimal plays - optimal plays shift because of the presence of Flame Leviathan, and you get to have this information while your opponent is in the dark.

You can of course make the argument that Flame Leviathan is not worth playing around until there's only a few cards left in your deck or drawing the Flame Leviathan in the board state you have planned makes you instantly lose from a possibly winning position. It definitely doesn't change priorities much in the early game. More importantly though, as other players have mentioned, Flame Leviathan hurts certain types of decks much worse than others, and this should be your primary consideration when picking Flame Leviathan.

thirsting

2015-01-03, 02:31 PM

Echo of Medivh and three Duplicates in arena. So many minions! And so much conceding after they gauge their mostly empty hand against my almost full one...

Zevox

2015-01-03, 04:04 PM

That doesn't make any sense. The way you have it set up, your opponent is not playing around Flame Leviathan, and you are, therefore your opponent has an advantage. However, if you accept this as true, you could simply not play around Flame Leviathan too, and your opponent's advantage is gone. You're not avoiding optimal plays - optimal plays shift because of the presence of Flame Leviathan, and you get to have this information while your opponent is in the dark.
Except that those plays are only actually optimal if you draw Flame Leviathan, which is always a 1/however many cards are still in your deck chance, which is typically pretty low. And if you don't, they may well have been sub-optimal plays. It's a card that forces you to play around your own deck and the chance of it being drawn, inherently hampering your options by its very presence in your deck - that's terrible.

Tectonic Robot

2015-01-03, 04:06 PM

Except that those plays are only actually optimal if you draw Flame Leviathan, which is always a 1/however many cards are still in your deck chance, which is typically pretty low. And if you don't, they may well have been sub-optimal plays. It's a card that forces you to play around your own deck and the chance of it being drawn, inherently hampering your options by its very presence in your deck - that's terrible.

I think you're wrong here, Zevox. You can choose to not play around Flame Leviathan, if you want to. Then you won't be playing off the low low chance that Flame Leviathan will be drawn, and his effect won't matter because it'll be symmetrical--either good or bad. Same as a War Golem.

Or you could, and try to make it so when his effect does go off, its a plus for your game.

Zevox

2015-01-03, 04:13 PM

I think you're wrong here, Zevox. You can choose to not play around Flame Leviathan, if you want to. Then you won't be playing off the low low chance that Flame Leviathan will be drawn, and his effect won't matter because it'll be symmetrical--either good or bad. Same as a War Golem.

Or you could, and try to make it so when his effect does go off, its a plus for your game.
You choosing not to play around it doesn't mean that the effect won't matter - it could very well put you in a position where it going off will be terrible for you. Which is exactly the problem. Either you play around it and risk those altered, likely otherwise-weaker plays hampering you throughout the game or you don't and risk the Flame Leviathan screwing you over.

That is why Flame Leviathan is terrible. That is why I would never take it over War Golem. I only want to have to worry about my opponent defeating me, not my own card, thanks.

Hircine

2015-01-03, 04:25 PM

So I finally caved and crafted Sylvanas, but I still have a sizable amount of dust to use and am uncertain what to do with it.

1) Craft Ragnaros and Cairne (Though I've been hearing that Cairne isn't good anymore.)

2) Craft Jaraxxus and giants for handlock.

3) Craft Cenarius, FON, and Ancient of War for ramp druid..

Hamste

2015-01-03, 04:28 PM

Go handlock I would say (Mostly because I love handlock).

Zevox

2015-01-03, 04:33 PM

Gandariel

2015-01-03, 04:43 PM

@Zevox

I'm with the others too.

Setting aside the " is your deck good or bad for a Leviathan to be in" argument, Leviathan is better than War Golem.

Simply, you have two options.

You can ignore it, and play it like any other deck. In this case, it's neither positive or negative. It's just a more RNG game (which obviously you loathe, but doesn't hamper you more than it hampers your opponent).

IF you acknowledge the fact that it exists, you *may* slightly alter your plays and this *may* improve your performance with the deck.
Of course, you might just alter your plays too much and end up losing because you were hoping too much for the Leviathan or something, but that goes under playing wrong.

Assuming a good player, Flame Leviathan is nothing but a plus.

Hircine

2015-01-03, 04:45 PM

Personally, I would always favor crafting legendaries over lower-rarity cards when I had enough dust for it, since it's so much easier to get the lower-rarity cards out of packs or shorter-term dust saving. Rag, Cairne, and Jaraxxus are all well worth grabbing I can say from experience. I do love Jaraxxus in particular. Rag can be frustrating though, with his RNG-dependency.

Won't Jaraxxus be worthless without the giants since he's only used in Handlock and Demonlock decks? Also for reference I won't be getting anymore classic packs for sometime since my gold goes into arena.

Zevox

2015-01-03, 05:04 PM

Assuming a good player, Flame Leviathan is nothing but a plus.
I could not disagree more. Flame Leviathan is always a risk, and forces you to make plays you otherwise wouldn't or to accept the possibility of it showing up at the wrong time and screwing you over. It doesn't matter who the player is, that's a problem. That's why you'll never see it getting used in constructed at any serious level - it's not worth the risk. An uncontrollable effect like that is not a plus unless you get lucky.

It's actually significantly worse than every other form of RNG in the game. With other RNG cards you at least control when you play them - what the board state is at the time you drop your Mad Bomber, or Ragnaros, or whatever it may be. With Flame Leviathan you don't even have that much control.

Won't Jaraxxus be worthless without the giants since he's only used in Handlock and Demonlock decks? Also for reference I won't be getting anymore classic packs for sometime since my gold goes into arena.
I suppose, if you don't want to experiment with anything else yourself.

Gandariel

2015-01-03, 05:19 PM

I could not disagree more. Flame Leviathan is always a risk, and forces you to make plays you otherwise wouldn't or to accept the possibility of it showing up at the wrong time and screwing you over. It doesn't matter who the player is, that's a problem. That's why you'll never see it getting used in constructed at any serious level - it's not worth the risk. An uncontrollable effect like that is not a plus unless you get lucky.

It's actually significantly worse than every other form of RNG in the game. With other RNG cards you at least control when you play them - what the board state is at the time you drop your Mad Bomber, or Ragnaros, or whatever it may be. With Flame Leviathan you don't even have that much control.

Ok, let me try to rephrase that.

YOU CAN IGNORE IT.
Since its effect completely symmetrical and noone is taking any steps to ward from it, the effect is completely neutral.
It's like having a War Golem, plus having a chance of this random event happening. This is neither better or worse. It's just more random.

So we've established that the BASELINE for this card is neutral. If you ignore it, it's neither better or worse than War Golem.
So, whatever you do, (assuming you are a good player) you can't get worse than this.

Now the question is, is there any situation in which knowing Leviathan is in your deck could benefit you?

The answer to that is clearly yes (and i could give you examples if you want).

So, the value of the card fluctuates between War Golem and War Golem +.

Unless you value completely neutral RNG as negative, or take into account how your deck might be "good" or "bad" for Leviathan, i still say it's a pick over War Golem

Zevox

2015-01-03, 05:32 PM

Ok, let me try to rephrase that.

YOU CAN IGNORE IT.
Since its effect completely symmetrical and noone is taking any steps to ward from it, the effect is completely neutral.
It's like having a War Golem, plus having a chance of this random event happening. This is neither better or worse. It's just more random.
That's like saying that Hellfire never benefits one player over the other, because the effect is symmetrical. It's simply wrong. Ignoring it is a risk, just as playing around it constantly is a risk. Its mere presence in your deck is a risk. War Golem's is not.

Silfir

2015-01-03, 05:44 PM

Most cards are drawn at the beginning of your turn. At that time, it's slightly more likely for your opponent to have minions on the board, simply because clearing your opponent's board while establishing board presence of your own is usually the optimal play. The only time that's not the case is if you're ahead, and since you know Flame Leviathan is in your deck, you can play around it a bit when trading by leaving 3+ health minions around.

With all that in mind I'd say Flame Leviathan averages out to slightly better than neutral. Whether or not it would make Constructed decks is a pretty useless distinction to make when evaluating Arena picks. (On the other hand, to some extent so is comparing cards of a different rarity. If you compare Flame Leviathan to other legendaries, it falls very much behind.) There are tons of fine Arena cards that never see Constructed play as well as Constructed staples that are poor to terrible Arena picks.

EDIT: The mere presence of Flame Leviathan is a risk, sure. But at the same time the mere presence of Flame Leviathan in your deck offers the potential of beneficial outcome. Imagine going first, passing the turn, and your opponent coins out two Flame Imps in an attempt to rush you down. Now drawing Flame Leviathan doesn't just not hurt you, it all but wins you the game outright, whereas War Golem would merely drive another nail into the coffin since it's a crappy early game draw.

A proper risk-benefit analysis would take all the potential cases of good and bad outcomes into account; it wouldn't amount to "it's risky, therefore it's bad".

efdf

2015-01-03, 05:53 PM

That's like saying that Hellfire never benefits one player over the other, because the effect is symmetrical.

It's nothing like that actually, and that's a pretty bad misinterpretation of Gandariel's post.

Zevox

2015-01-03, 06:11 PM

EDIT: The mere presence of Flame Leviathan is a risk, sure. But at the same time the mere presence of Flame Leviathan in your deck offers the potential of beneficial outcome. Imagine going first, passing the turn, and your opponent coins out two Flame Imps in an attempt to rush you down. Now drawing Flame Leviathan doesn't just not hurt you, it all but wins you the game outright, whereas War Golem would merely drive another nail into the coffin since it's a crappy early game draw.
That requires a ridiculous amount of luck - hence my previous comment "An uncontrollable effect like that is not a plus unless you get lucky."

A proper risk-benefit analysis would take all the potential cases of good and bad outcomes into account; it wouldn't amount to "it's risky, therefore it's bad".
The problem is that this risk is truly uncontrollable, because the effect occurs simply from drawing the card, never from playing it. I don't see how that can ever be acceptable. Thoughout the game it forces you to either play around it, in which case your play becomes sub-optimal for turns where you don't draw it and therefore it's weakening you overall by simply being in your deck, or to choose not to and risk it destroying you. I do not see how that can ever be worth the small chance that you draw it at a time when it's devastating to your opponent. It's the kind of risk that simply isn't worth taking.

It's nothing like that actually, and that's a pretty bad misinterpretation of Gandariel's post.
Then explain it, because that seems to be the implication of calling the effect "neutral."

It's not - its effect's impact is based on the board state at the time. It might be neutral, if the board is empty, or somehow 2 damage neither kills anything, nor enables better trades for anyone, nor puts either player meaningfully closer to lethal, but more likely it will benefit one player over the other, and if you want that player to be you, you have to try to structure your plays accordingly. But in so doing you're likely weakening them for the instances where you don't draw Flame Leviathan, which will be most of the time. Which is precisely the problem: how the Leviathan affects how you play the game simply by being in your deck. That's why my comment that started this whole discussion was that this is probably the worst part of the card.

Silfir

2015-01-03, 06:25 PM

more likely it will benefit one player over the other, and if you want that player to be you, you have to try to structure your plays accordingly.

That might be the central fallacy. Because no - you don't have to.

If you do nothing different than you would otherwise, you're slightly more likely to benefit from Flame Leviathan than you are to lose anything to it, simply because you draw most of your cards at the beginning of your turn, after your opponent has played their minions, and before you've played yours.

Double Flame Imp on turn 2 is just an extreme example. There are tons and tons of scenarios you should be taking into account - that's why we do vanilla tests and look at game situations in general terms. Flame Leviathan would mean a great benefit even if your opponent just coined out a Raptor on turn 2 (which any deck can do, and decently often will), or if they clear the board, using some removal, and play a Bloodfen Raptor with their remaining 2 mana et cetera. At the beginning of your turn, you're more likely to stare an opponent's minions into the face than you are to still have some of your own around. That's enough.

That's if you do nothing different. You don't have to play around it at all, but if you can do so in a low-impact way, it becomes even better. And it's already been mentioned that if your deck doesn't fit Flame Leviathan (perhaps due to the presence of tons of small minions), you'd of course pick War Golem instead.

As an aside, I have no idea how Hellfire enters into the discussion at all. It's a great Arena card, and it's worth paying four mana and a card for because you can pick when you play it. Flame Leviathan's effect is free in terms of both mana and cards - at that price point, the only question is whether it's more likely to hurt you on average than it is to help you, and if the former is true, the card is slightly better than neutral on average.

At least while comparing it to War Golem. A 7/7 for 7 is not the best arena minion ever, even with a slightly beneficial effect, which is why I would probably pick a good number of other legendaries first.

Zevox

2015-01-03, 07:09 PM

That might be the central fallacy. Because no - you don't have to.

If you do nothing different than you would otherwise, you're slightly more likely to benefit from Flame Leviathan than you are to lose anything to it, simply because you draw most of your cards at the beginning of your turn, after your opponent has played their minions, and before you've played yours.
I don't really buy that. In arena in general, most turns outside of the very early game will end with both players having something on the board, unless one is clearly winning. If you're losing, then yes, Flame Leviathan is more likely to hurt your opponent, but it's also unlikely to get drawn, so that frequently won't matter. And if you're winning, it's probably more likely to hurt you if you don't play around it. But play around it when you're winning and you might not be playing strong enough to stay that way, unless you've already developed a significant advantage, in which case the Leviathan probably doesn't matter.

As an aside, I have no idea how Hellfire enters into the discussion at all.
Its effect is the same as Flame Leviathan's, minus one damage. So when claiming the effect is "neutral" due to being symmetrical, it's a useful comparison.

At least while comparing it to War Golem. A 7/7 for 7 is not the best arena minion ever, even with a slightly beneficial effect, which is why I would probably pick a good number of other legendaries first.
That's certainly true, no doubt. It'd just take a pretty bad set of legendaries for me to consider it. Match it up with Lorewalker Cho and Millhouse Manastorm or something and I'd probably begrudgingly take it - after considering Millhouse as an alternative since arena decks tend to have fewer spells than constructed, anyway.

Infernally Clay

2015-01-03, 07:25 PM

I still don't like Kel'Thazud at all, even when I'm the one getting it through Unstable Portal. It's just such a broken card that it kinda sucks all the fun out of the match because you've just played the "I win" card - and I did win since you can't really compete with an opponent whose Piloted Sky Golem keeps coming back and bringing friends.

I got Iron Juggernaut in the previous match, though, against a Warrior no less. That was a funny moment. They didn't get to draw the mine, though, which was a little sad. I would've saved it for much later, but my deck is fairly aggressive and they were already pretty low on health so there was no real point dragging the match out.

otakuryoga

2015-01-03, 07:49 PM

Then explain it, because that seems to be the implication of calling the effect "neutral."

hellfire doesn't go off when you draw it
you have complete 100% control over when hellfire goes off
flame leviathan you do not

efdf

2015-01-03, 08:03 PM

What Zevox is trying to say I think is that Hellfire, which is similar to Flame Leviathan's effect, often gives a huge advantage to one side therefore Flame Leviathan's effect is not neutral. However, no one is using neutral to mean it will affect both boards equally given a particular activation, people are saying it's neutral in the sense that if neither player takes it into consideration throughout the game, the player it happens to give an advantage to when it occurs is random.

In arena in general, most turns outside of the very early game will end with both players having something on the board, unless one is clearly winning.

Yeah, and the player whose turn just ended is very likely to have more on the board, because most players spend their turn weakening the board of the enemy and building their own board. It's not a guarantee obviously but it's likely to be true.

r2d2go

2015-01-03, 11:38 PM

This probably won't resolve anything involving Flame Leviathan, but I'll try to explain some things.

Flame Leviathan is a vanilla 7/7, except that it adds a chance of spicing up the board with 2 damage to everything. This effect happens without warning, at the beginning of your turn.

One point in favor of Flame Leviathan is that your board is generally less-filled at the beginning of your turn than at the end. This is evidenced by the fact that you can (for the most part) only gain creatures during your turn, but you can lose creatures on both your turn and your enemies turn. That means that overall, you will play more creatures on your turn than you will lose (if you want this explained further, just ask). Thus, since the effect happens at the beginning of your turn, you will generally avoid killing quite as many of your creatures.

That alone makes Flame Leviathan a pretty alright card, compared to War Golem. Unless you know you have a lot of things that are vulnerable to the 2 damage, it should make things slightly better for you, on average.

The secondary advantage is that you know it's in your deck, while your opponent does not. Now, you don't have to play around it. Simply by ignoring its existence, this point is moot - not a disadvantage, because now it's as if neither you nor your opponent knows it's there. But by playing around it, even just slightly, you can gain an advantage. But the knowledge of it's existence can't hurt you, unless you're arguing the psychological effect of knowing it's there.

Now, something I don't think has been really noted is that by trigger, your opponents know it's there. That means that if you draw it early game, your opponents know that their hex or assassinate has at least a 7/7 to kill, and they might save it. This is a slight disadvantage, but I don't think it's big enough to outweigh the other two points. However, if you're arguing that this effect is greater than the other two, and not that the other two are nonexistent or negative, that's a matter of opinion, and I can't argue against that :smalltongue:

Rosstin

2015-01-04, 04:21 AM

My two latest decks:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/AsterAzul/rosstinmalgiant20150104.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/AsterAzul/rwd20150104.jpg

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 05:30 AM

I don't really buy that. In arena in general, most turns outside of the very early game will end with both players having something on the board, unless one is clearly winning. If you're losing, then yes, Flame Leviathan is more likely to hurt your opponent, but it's also unlikely to get drawn, so that frequently won't matter. And if you're winning, it's probably more likely to hurt you if you don't play around it. But play around it when you're winning and you might not be playing strong enough to stay that way, unless you've already developed a significant advantage, in which case the Leviathan probably doesn't matter.

Zevox, you are alone in this thing you're saying. I'm sorry, but you have to understand.

if you IGNORE its existence, it is a COMPLETELY random effect. COMPLETELY RANDOM means, on average, it doesn't benefit any player. Why can't you understand it?

efdf actually smartly added that, since the effect happens at the start of your turn (where, ideally, the opponent's board is at its strongest) (and also you have a chance to react immediately to the effect), it does benefit YOU a bit.
But let's say that this las thing isn't true. Let's ignore that for a minute and just say that a completely random effect is neutral. Can you accept this?

Now, since IGNORING it is the baseline and it's neutral, any improvement you can make by knowing it's there will only push it up.
If now you say "you'll be forced to alter your plays and play suboptimally, blah blah", i say you're playing wrong. Yes, if you use the knowledge that this card is in the deck in the worst way, it will hurt you.
But so will any card, if you play it wrong.

Its effect is the same as Flame Leviathan's, minus one damage. So when claiming the effect is "neutral" due to being symmetrical, it's a useful comparison.

I claim the effect is neutral (in the case you're ignoring it) because it is symmetrical and uncontrollable and no player knows it's there, so will try to play around it.
Hellfire is a card you have in your hand and can play whenever you want. The effect is symmetrical, but if you control when you play it, and if you're playing well it will usually benefit you.

That's certainly true, no doubt. It'd just take a pretty bad set of legendaries for me to consider it. Match it up with Lorewalker Cho and Millhouse Manastorm or something and I'd probably begrudgingly take it - after considering Millhouse as an alternative since arena decks tend to have fewer spells than constructed, anyway.

I agree it's a subpar legendary.

Volthawk

2015-01-04, 05:35 AM

Main thing I have against Leviathan is this: It takes up a deck slot. If I'm in constructed, there are tons of better options waiting to be fit into the deck, and in Arena...it might be the better choice if up against trash legendaries, but there are a lot of legendaries I'd rather have.

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 05:43 AM

Rosstin

2015-01-04, 06:18 AM

i wanna try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ7X9kPZpww

Silfir

2015-01-04, 08:59 AM

efdf actually smartly added that

Ouch...

Maybe my Hearthstone card representation has Stealth. That must be it.

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 10:24 AM

Ouch...

Maybe my Hearthstone card representation has Stealth. That must be it.

Yeah, that was it. I wasn't able to target you, so i had to target the guy next to you.
We even just had the Create-A-Card contest based on Positioning!

In other news, the magic of Christmas (and me getting a new pc) mean that i can probably try to stream now! Would anyone be interested in watching? I've never streamed before.

Also, we were discussing casting our gitp tournament, so we can do that too :P

Zevox

2015-01-04, 12:25 PM

if you IGNORE its existence, it is a COMPLETELY random effect. COMPLETELY RANDOM means, on average, it doesn't benefit any player. [...]
Let's ignore that for a minute and just say that a completely random effect is neutral. Can you accept this?
No, I do not. It being completely random does not mean that the effect is neutral, it means that the effect's impact will be based on the board state when it does go off, and as such you need to get lucky for it to not hurt you. Unless you play around it, but as I've been saying that can be a problem in itself.

This is the entire problem with the card, and the reason it's subpar at best - it's an uncontrollable card in your own deck which can hurt you significantly, either directly or indirectly. If you're willing to take that gamble, by all means go for it. Me, in the comparison that started this discussion, I'd take the War Golem every time, no doubt in my mind. As mentioned earlier, in the more realistic comparison between legendaries, I'd even give serious consideration to taking Millhouse Manastorm over it, if only because arena is typically shorter on spells than constructed.

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 01:10 PM

No, I do not. It being completely random does not mean that the effect is neutral, it means that the effect's impact will be based on the board state when it does go off, and as such you need to get lucky for it to not hurt you. Unless you play around it, but as I've been saying that can be a problem in itself.

This is the entire problem with the card, and the reason it's subpar at best - it's an uncontrollable card in your own deck which can hurt you significantly, either directly or indirectly. If you're willing to take that gamble, by all means go for it. Me, in the comparison that started this discussion, I'd take the War Golem every time, no doubt in my mind. As mentioned earlier, in the more realistic comparison between legendaries, I'd even give serious consideration to taking Millhouse Manastorm over it, if only because arena is typically shorter on spells than constructed.

Then this is where we do not agree.
A completely uncontrollable, random, symmetrical event which nobody takes steps to avoid is neutral. you have to accept this because it's objectively true*.

*disregarding factors, such as:
- It hits at the start of your turn, which is the point where usually the opponent's board is strongest (+)
- Your deck (and your opponent's) may be "better" or "worse" for this card to make its effect (neutral)
- Knowing it exists can make you (in some cases) ( if you're good enough) use it to your advantage (+)

the flame imps example is wrong. it's just a case of where this neutral effect is beneficial to you. An example where your knowledge is helpful would be something along the lines of casting Arcane Intellect (when you have only 2 cards left in the deck) to draw it and clear the enemy board, instead of using other less efficient methods.

Also,

but [playing around it] can be a problem in itself.

It can only be if you're not playing well enough.
If you're playing around it too much or too little, the problem is that you're not good enough. Simple as that.

Zevox, i respect you as a player, but in some occasions your personal preferences make you ignore the actual value of things.
You hate RNG, so you assume this effect is negative, just as you always refused to play Leeroy back when it was good, because you don't like burst cards.
Nobody is forcing you to do anything, but an objective thing is objective

Anxe

2015-01-04, 01:12 PM

Yeah, that was it. I wasn't able to target you, so i had to target the guy next to you.
We even just had the Create-A-Card contest based on Positioning!

In other news, the magic of Christmas (and me getting a new pc) mean that i can probably try to stream now! Would anyone be interested in watching? I've never streamed before.

Also, we were discussing casting our gitp tournament, so we can do that too :P

Yeah! Since you, Graymage, and I were the ones who expressed interest in this before we should probably meet on Skype sometime before the tourney matches start just to figure out really basic stuff. And Legoshrimp too if he's going to be streaming it.

Zevox

2015-01-04, 01:36 PM

Then this is where we do not agree.
A completely uncontrollable, random, symmetrical event which nobody takes steps to avoid is neutral. you have to accept this because it's objectively true*.
Nonsense. A completely random, uncontrollable, symmetrical effect is situational. Its impact will based on the board state when it goes off. Typically, in a mode like arena that is more minion-heavy, it will hurt something on both players' side to some degree, and you'd just be hoping it hurts your opponent worse.

It can only be if you're not playing well enough.
If you're playing around it too much or too little, the problem is that you're not good enough. Simple as that.
Not at all. Play around it even a little and you may miss a strong play that would significantly alter how the game goes. Small decisions can have big consequences for the outcome of the match, and all the more so in arena where you're never sure what your opponent's deck contains.

Zevox, i respect you as a player, but in some occasions your personal preferences make you ignore the actual value of things.
You hate RNG, so you assume this effect is negative, just as you always refused to play Leeroy back when it was good, because you don't like burst cards.
Nobody is forcing you to do anything, but an objective thing is objective
Leeroy I acknowledge was good, I just would not use him myself because I didn't want to use cards like that. Just as today I still do not use Force + Savage in my Druid decks, for instance. I sure as heck know that's good, but I don't want to play decks that use things like that as their win condition, so I do not. That's strictly personal preference for how to play, not a disagreement over the quality of the cards.

On Flame Leviathan we do have a disagreement on the quality of the card. I see it as worse than War Golem: same stats and cost, but with an effect that is totally uncontrollable and makes for an undesirable risk in several ways, so it's something I would never want to have in my deck unless the alternatives it was up against were both much worse cards than War Golem.

Gray Mage

2015-01-04, 01:46 PM

Yeah! Since you, Graymage, and I were the ones who expressed interest in this before we should probably meet on Skype sometime before the tourney matches start just to figure out really basic stuff. And Legoshrimp too if he's going to be streaming it.

I just got home today, so anytime now'd be ok with be.

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 01:57 PM

Nonsense. A completely random, uncontrollable, symmetrical effect is situational. Its impact will based on the board state when it goes off. Typically, in a mode like arena that is more minion-heavy, it will hurt something on both players' side to some degree, and you'd just be hoping it hurts your opponent worse.

Exactly. But on average, it will hit everyone equally (actually it slightly favours you because blah blah blah).

@Altering your play: yes. You can alter your play. At the end of the game, your alteration may have been positive, or negative.
There is some random involved, but we can easily remove that, since it's neutral. Aside from that, a good player will typically alter his play in a positive manner, a bad player will alter it negatively.

Assuming a player is good enough (let's say perfect), having any extra information will be a positive thing. Yes, there may be times when it makes him lose the game, but on average it will be a positive effect.

Qwertystop

2015-01-04, 02:01 PM

Then this is where we do not agree.
A completely uncontrollable, random, symmetrical event which nobody takes steps to avoid is neutral. you have to accept this because it's objectively true*.

No, it's only neutral on average. Sometimes it will have more effect on you, sometimes on your opponent, depending on the board - if one player has more minions than the other, it will do more total damage, for example.

In Constructed, you can play a deck with it enough for that average to matter more than individual cases. In Arena, though, that's not going to happen, with fifteen games at most.

efdf

2015-01-04, 02:32 PM

Qwerty, in a way I agree with you. I wouldn't pick it over war golem in arena (though obviously it's not possible for this choice to present itself) because while it's generally more favored to me, arena is a format where I want to get extremely favored win rates. A card that grants me a guaranteed 51% win rate would be incredible in constructed but poor in arena.

In the same vein, flame leviathans potential to swing the game one way or the other given a particular board state would make me reluctant to pick it unless I have an absolutely awful deck, because it pulls me toward a slightly favored outcome from a highly favored one rather than simply adding on to my chance to win. Or you can think of it like a good arena player will generally have a stronger board position than his opponent on average, but a good constructed player won't because of differences in format matchmaking

But zevox, I feel like you haven't even read anyone's posts because you're mostly addressing points that haven't been made and ignoring ones that have

Gandariel

2015-01-04, 02:34 PM

@qwertystop

Yeah, I meant on average.

And I was temporarily ignoring other things, most of which positive, just to focus on the fact that the base effect is (on average) neutral, and it only goes up from there.

Also, max games is in arena is 14.

r2d2go

2015-01-04, 02:48 PM

Qwerty, in a way I agree with you. I wouldn't pick it over war golem in arena (though obviously it's not possible for this choice to present itself) because while it's generally more favored to me, arena is a format where I want to get extremely favored win rates. A card that grants me a guaranteed 51% win rate would be incredible in constructed but poor in arena.

Actually, that's a good point, equalizers are worse in arena if you expect to go more than 3 wins. So I guess Flame Leviathan gets bumped down another notch, but I still stand by my original evaluation, that I'd pick it if my deck seemed like it'd be less vulnerable to the effect, and/or if I have no AoEs.

But zevox, I feel like you haven't even read anyone's posts because you're mostly addressing points that haven't been made and ignoring ones that have

Pretty much, I think my post just got completely ignored :smalltongue:

Zevox

2015-01-04, 03:12 PM

Exactly. But on average, it will hit everyone equally (actually it slightly favours you because blah blah blah).
Maybe if you could play infinite games with it. In any smaller sample size though, I would not expect that to end up being the case. The effect is too powerful and too random not to create some pretty massive swings one way or another, particularly in arena, and that is not a risk worth taking.

@Altering your play: yes. You can alter your play. At the end of the game, your alteration may have been positive, or negative.
There is some random involved, but we can easily remove that, since it's neutral. Aside from that, a good player will typically alter his play in a positive manner, a bad player will alter it negatively.

Assuming a player is good enough (let's say perfect), having any extra information will be a positive thing. Yes, there may be times when it makes him lose the game, but on average it will be a positive effect.
Good players don't always play perfectly, nor can they in arena, where the opponent is unpredictable. Playing around Flame Leviathan one turn may mean sacrificing a wounded minion you'd otherwise keep around instead of setting another minion to 1-2 health, which might lead to the opponent being able to play something and have it stick next turn, which might turn the tide of battle. Small things like that can determine the course of a game, especially an arena game, very easily.

But zevox, I feel like you haven't even read anyone's posts because you're mostly addressing points that haven't been made and ignoring ones that have
I've been focusing on what seems to be the central point of disagreement. The rest doesn't even matter if we can't agree on whether the effect is even acceptable on average if you don't play around it at all. Which, evidently, we can't.

Pretty much, I think my post just got completely ignored :smalltongue:
Your post mostly just reiterated things others had already said - there was nothing more for me to say about it that hadn't already been said.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-04, 04:16 PM

i wanna try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ7X9kPZpww

Mill Druid is a really, really interesting addition to the meta, and I like it whole heartedly. I'm not entirely sure it's got what it takes in the top tiers of competition, but it's certainly more powerful than backspace rogue, which was already effective.

I do feel like "70% win against zoo, and way better against hand lock" is a bit over exaggerated though. I've been playing hand lock on ladder recently and played against Mill Druid 5 times, and won 3 of those 5 matches. Not a great sample size, but the matchup hardly feels "unwinnable" from the hand lock side. Now that I've played against it, know how to counter it, I feel like Handlock is at least even with if not favored against mill druid.

r2d2go

2015-01-04, 04:18 PM

Your post mostly just reiterated things others had already said - there was nothing more for me to say about it that hadn't already been said.

Even the math bit, which logic-d out why you should be playing about twice as many creatures as you lose, so all but the most unusual of games have players gaining minions of the course of their turn? Even the last bit, which I did a quick search of to see if anybody had stated before and found nothing? Maybe I wasn't thorough enough... But it was actually supporting the Leviathan being less good, in that people know it's there in your hand. But I highly doubt there was nothing in my post that was new. Just because I said I was trying to explain existing points doesn't mean I'm not adding something new to support or argue against said points.

Also, I'm not sure how you can argue that the knowledge of Flame Leviathan is negative. Like, are you seriously saying that the psychological effect of knowing it's there will make it necessarily negative, because people won't be able to stop themselves from playing around it? You can just ignore that it's there. That's gotta get rid of the negative of playing around it.

Lastly, while sometimes the Leviathan will be negative, are you really saying that it is going to be negative on average for the user? Imagine if it wasn't a card, and just an environmental effect that occasionally deals 2 damage to everything. Can you really say that effect is worse or better for one player on average, if it's perfectly symmetrical? Because the fact is, the effect is pretty much independent of the card itself. That is to say, having Flame Leviathan in your deck is a lot like having War Golem in your deck, plus an environmental effect that might deal 2 damage to everything.

Zevox

2015-01-04, 10:42 PM

Okay, what the hell? I just had a match where the game apparently just decided to force me to skip a turn. I drew a card as if my turn had started, but the "your turn" message never popped up, my cards and minions never got the green highlight, and I couldn't do anything. After what I presume to be the allotted time of a turn (I never got the timer), my opponent drew and could act. Then on my next turn I started with a timer, as if I'd been idle the last turn (I very much had not been). And of course, this turns out to be crucial to my opponent winning the match, giving him an extra turn to field answers to the Giant I had just played the turn before. Just... ugh.

Also, I'm not sure how you can argue that the knowledge of Flame Leviathan is negative. Like, are you seriously saying that the psychological effect of knowing it's there will make it necessarily negative, because people won't be able to stop themselves from playing around it? You can just ignore that it's there. That's gotta get rid of the negative of playing around it.
I'm saying that putting yourself in a position where you have to consider playing around your own card is harmful to you. That when you do choose to play around it, it could end up turning the tides in your opponent's favor, because you went for a weaker play than you could have, entirely due to the presence of Flame Leviathan in your deck. Choose to play around it and risk that, or don't and risk the Leviathan hurting you - both are problematic, but with Leviathan in your deck you'll frequently be in the position of deciding between them.

Lastly, while sometimes the Leviathan will be negative, are you really saying that it is going to be negative on average for the user? Imagine if it wasn't a card, and just an environmental effect that occasionally deals 2 damage to everything. Can you really say that effect is worse or better for one player on average, if it's perfectly symmetrical? Because the fact is, the effect is pretty much independent of the card itself. That is to say, having Flame Leviathan in your deck is a lot like having War Golem in your deck, plus an environmental effect that might deal 2 damage to everything.
I'm saying that, in arena especially, the card will on average hurt the user to at least some degree. That's not acceptable for something coming from your own deck in my mind. And given an arena run is only a small number of matches, it is entirely possible for it to end up a negative on average - which is not a risk worth taking.

r2d2go

2015-01-04, 10:51 PM

I'm saying that putting yourself in a position where you have to consider playing around your own card is harmful to you. That when you do choose to play around it, it could end up turning the tides in your opponent's favor, because you went for a weaker play than you could have, entirely due to the presence of Flame Leviathan in your deck. Choose to play around it and risk that, or don't and risk the Leviathan hurting you - both are problematic, but with Leviathan in your deck you'll frequently be in the position of deciding between them.

But it is at least as problematic to your opponent as you. If you don't play around it, you and your opponent, on average, have the same disadvantage. Shouldn't that leave it at least equal to vanilla 7/7?

I'm saying that, in arena especially, the card will on average hurt the user to at least some degree. That's not acceptable for something coming from your own deck in my mind. And given an arena run is only a small number of matches, it is entirely possible for it to end up a negative on average - which is not a risk worth taking.

So... you're saying that a drawback is not worth an identical advantage? Because on average, it hurts the user the same as the opponent. I mean, I guess that's a valid opinion, but... that just seems kinda weird :smalltongue: like, if you have a card that says "both players get/do/gain X", it's pretty clearly a card you play based on your deck/the meta, not a straight disadvantage. If Tree of Life costed 0 but was played the moment you drew it and cantrip'd, would you say it's always a bad card? Because you seem to be saying that Flame Leviathan is bad even in a control deck, even in a deck with almost no chance of having a big board full of little creatures.

Qwertystop

2015-01-04, 11:00 PM

But it is at least as problematic to your opponent as you. If you don't play around it, you and your opponent, on average, have the same disadvantage. Shouldn't that leave it at least equal to vanilla 7/7?

So... you're saying that a drawback is not worth an identical advantage? Because on average, it hurts the user the same as the opponent. I mean, I guess that's a valid opinion, but... that just seems kinda weird :smalltongue: like, if you have a card that says "both players get/do/gain X", it's pretty clearly a card you play based on your deck/the meta, not a straight disadvantage. If Tree of Life costed 0 but was played the moment you drew it and cantrip'd, would you say it's always a bad card? Because you seem to be saying that Flame Leviathan is bad even in a control deck, even in a deck with almost no chance of having a big board full of little creatures.

Keep in mind, again, that the context is Arena. Neutral on average is not very good - losses matter more than wins. Unless you want to go 3-3? (My personal best is 2-3, and I've only done that well once, but presumably we're going from the perspective of someone who can reliably hit rank 17 here)

Zevox

2015-01-04, 11:01 PM

But it is at least as problematic to your opponent as you. If you don't play around it, you and your opponent, on average, have the same disadvantage. Shouldn't that leave it at least equal to vanilla 7/7?
How problematic it is to each player compared to the other is situational and random. Which is not something I can ever see as desirable over a card with the same cost and stats but no effect.

So... you're saying that a drawback is not worth an identical advantage? Because on average, it hurts the user the same as the opponent. I mean, I guess that's a valid opinion, but... that just seems kinda weird :smalltongue: like, if you have a card that says "both players get/do/gain X", it's pretty clearly a card you play based on your deck/the meta, not a straight disadvantage. If Tree of Life costed 0 but was played the moment you drew it and cantrip'd, would you say it's always a bad card? Because you seem to be saying that Flame Leviathan is bad even in a control deck, even in a deck with almost no chance of having a big board full of little creatures.
You're getting into discussion of constructed there - in arena, your deck is basically guaranteed to be a mid-range-y, minion-heavy deck, which Flame Leviathan has no synergy with. You'll have cheap minions it can kill, and be trying to take kills with your bigger minions that leave them wounded but alive, which lets it kill them. Or it could activate before you make those kills, leaving you with a bad trade where once you had a good one. In constructed you could theoretically make a control deck where Leviathan's effect doesn't typically hurt you - but then in constructed you just have so many better cards to choose from that are more reliable that you wouldn't want to do that anyway.

As for the Tree of Life comparison, if it worked like that I'd say it was a much better card than it actually is. But the crucial part of that is that it cantrips - if it simply cost 0 and activated when drawn, I'd say it was even worse than it currently is. For constructed, at least. For arena... no clue. Probably not a card I'd want in arena in either case, personally, but it's too difficult to evaluate.

CarpeGuitarrem

2015-01-04, 11:02 PM

Isn't Flame Leviathan much more likely to hurt your opponent more than you? Because most times you draw a card, it's going to be the start of your turn (barring stuff like Coldlight or Acolyte or Dancing Swords). Which means that once the board clear happens, you're able to play. So you can replenish the losses you suffered, and you retain momentum.

I guess the real issue is that if your opponent has beefier minions on the board and you just have weenies, you've ceded momentum to them. If you have minions that have more than 2 health, though, Flame Leviathan lets them trade up into bigger minions, since it dings those minions by two.

efdf

2015-01-04, 11:24 PM

I think the primary disagreement is this

That's not acceptable for something coming from your own deck in my mind.

(emphasis mine)

To me, the fact that it comes from your own deck isn't important at all, but to you the fact that your own card could hurt you makes the card unplayable simply on a psychological level

Zevox

2015-01-04, 11:29 PM

I think the primary disagreement is this

(emphasis mine)

To me, the fact that it comes from your own deck isn't important at all, but to you the fact that your own card could hurt you makes the card unplayable
Not unplayable, but certainly not something I'd pick over anything but very bad cards. Between being your own card and being completely uncontrollable, it's something I'd never want if the alternatives were at all decent. And War Golem is.

Though similarly, I would avoid a game mode where something like this could happen at random with no connection to either players' cards like the plague, too.

Qwertystop

2015-01-04, 11:42 PM

Hm. Well, it is basically War Golem with three modifications:

- Counts as an unrelated Legendary for number-in-deck limits
- The on-draw damage
- When you draw it your opponent sees it

So, what if it was more explicitly like that? What if, instead, it was... Let's call it Flame Replica. On adding it to your deck, pick any one non-legendary minion. In-game, Flame Replica has that minion's card text, cost, and stats, and when you draw it your opponent sees it and everything takes two damage.

Basically, make Flame Leviathan a modifier to another card, fixed at deck construction. Is there any minion for which that would be worth it? I can think of a few vague possibilities - things that it would be worth the risk to have three of, mostly.

Zevox

2015-01-05, 12:08 AM

Frog Dragon

2015-01-05, 12:58 AM

Flame Leviathan probably gets worse the better you are at arena. Generally, arena games are won through incremental board advantage, which means that good arena players tend to win by maneuvering themselves into superior board positions. Ergo, good players are more likely to be hurt by the symmetrical effect than comparatively worse players, since they are more likely to have boards full of stuff.

Destro_Yersul

2015-01-05, 01:47 AM

Zevox

2015-01-05, 03:10 AM

Well, got my first new legendary since the GvG launch in a pack tonight, and it's a good one this time - Vol'jin. Might need to take a break from Handlock for some Control Priest tomorrow. :smallbiggrin:

Also got me my first Grovetender. I am kind of curious to test those out in Ramp Druid, I must admit, but they've been too low-priority for me to craft so far.

CarpeGuitarrem

2015-01-05, 12:24 PM

It's also a mech, which will ocassionally matter. War Golem isn't, for whatever reason.
None of the Golems have been converted into mechs. With the lone exception of Harvest Golem. :smallconfused:

Another thought on Flame Leviathan: could it work in a Priest deck? You can generally heal your minions back up if that makes the difference, or use Holy Nova to completely undo the disadvantage on your side and clear up remaining enemies.

ex cathedra

2015-01-05, 12:34 PM

Another thought on Flame Leviathan: could it work in a Priest deck?
i mean, it's a 7/7 if you thoughtsteal it :l

Hamste

2015-01-05, 12:35 PM

Mage only so good luck with getting it drawn from your deck :P

ex cathedra

2015-01-05, 12:45 PM

Mage only so good luck with getting it drawn from your deck :P

sneed's it against druid and get recycled

Hamste

2015-01-05, 12:48 PM

Recombulator and recycle works as well.

CarpeGuitarrem

2015-01-05, 12:54 PM

Mage only so good luck with getting it drawn from your deck :P
Right.

:smallredface:

I knew there had to be something I was missing.

Thialfi

2015-01-05, 03:42 PM

I have played unstable portal perhaps two dozen times now and have already received Ragnaros and Tirion Fordring. I love this card. It even gave me a clockwork giant against a handlock. Of course I have also received an angry chicken, so the spell giveth and the spell taketh away.

Rosstin

2015-01-05, 03:48 PM

i'm getting stoked for the tourney ^_^

Is everyone signed up who wants to be? We can add a Euro sheet, too, if the Euro players are interested.

Zevox

2015-01-05, 10:30 PM

Another thought on Flame Leviathan: could it work in a Priest deck? You can generally heal your minions back up if that makes the difference, or use Holy Nova to completely undo the disadvantage on your side and clear up remaining enemies.
It would almost certainly work better for Priest than for Mage, if nothing else. I'm not sure if it'd be enough to make it worth running in constructed or to raise my estimation of what I'd take it over by too much in arena, but it'd probably help at least a little.

CarpeGuitarrem

2015-01-06, 12:49 AM

Saw a ludicrous Rogue mech start. They got the perfect opening hand.

T1: coin into Mechwarper
T2: Iron Sensei
T3: Mechwarper, Piloted Shredder, Micro Machine

I conceded after that.

Thialfi

2015-01-06, 02:12 PM

Saw a ludicrous Rogue mech start. They got the perfect opening hand.

T1: coin into Mechwarper
T2: Iron Sensei
T3: Mechwarper, Piloted Shredder, Micro Machine

I conceded after that.

Yeah, that's pretty ugly. Of course you were playing a rogue so he deserves a little luck. Has anyone seen anything viable out of them since GvG came out?

Joran

2015-01-06, 04:41 PM

Yeah, that's pretty ugly. Of course you were playing a rogue so he deserves a little luck. Has anyone seen anything viable out of them since GvG came out?

Hyped was running a neat Rogue deck in the last ESL week. This is his decklist.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/153636-speculative-hyped-esl-gallywix-control-rogue

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-06, 05:20 PM

Hyped was running a neat Rogue deck in the last ESL week. This is his decklist.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/153636-speculative-hyped-esl-gallywix-control-rogue

I think I played against that deck on ladder a couple days ago, funny how things disseminate. It worked decently well.

Weimann

2015-01-06, 06:06 PM

Playing a Random Mage chock full of Unstable Portals, Piloted minions and Recombobulators. I tripled my amount of games won with a mage today alone. Real funny deck.

Zevox

2015-01-06, 09:22 PM

Yeah, that's pretty ugly. Of course you were playing a rogue so he deserves a little luck. Has anyone seen anything viable out of them since GvG came out?
I've run into what appears to be a functional Control Rogue on the ladder a couple of times in the past week or so. Funny enough it actually resembles one of my own attempts at a Control Rogue from some time ago, with Thalnos and a Kobold Geomancer, lots of the Rogue spells that benefit from spellpower, and Violet Teachers. It's not quite the same as the one Joran linked - I never saw Gallywix, and I'm pretty sure the ones I faced all ran two Sprints, and at least one ran two Blade Flurries - but fairly close.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-06, 09:46 PM

Oh yeah, that does remind me, I'm still not on the OP list from way back when I asked to be put on it a thread or two ago.

Zevox

2015-01-06, 10:01 PM

Oh yeah, that does remind me, I'm still not on the OP list from way back when I asked to be put on it a thread or two ago.
Don't recall a previous request, though I guess I wouldn't if it was that long ago. In any case though I'll need your Battle.net name and number, plus which server you're on, to do that.

Qwertystop

2015-01-06, 10:15 PM

I just had a game where I had 3 life and a Nerubian Egg with Taunt. Enemy uses Fireball... to clear the taunter.

Of course, they then use the other Fireball to clear me. I honestly don't know if it was a mistake that lucky-for-them didn't matter or not.

CarpeGuitarrem

2015-01-07, 12:23 AM

Playing a Random Mage chock full of Unstable Portals, Piloted minions and Recombobulators. I tripled my amount of games won with a mage today alone. Real funny deck.
I need to get ahold of a Recombobulator or two. Because hilarity.

Mystic Muse

2015-01-07, 04:52 AM

Alright, I'm working on what stuff to craft next, and am not sure. Would you guys mind helping? Here's what I don't have crafted, by class.

Everything, I don't play this class. :smalltongue:

Bestial Wrath (Hahano.)
Feign Death (I doubt it's worth it)
Flare
Misdirection
Snake Trap
Snipe
Scavenging Hyena
Steamwheedle Sniper
Eaglehorn Bow
Deadly Shot
Unleash the Hounds
Metaltooth Leaper
Cobra Shot (Noooo.)
Explosive Shot
King of Beasts
Savannah highmane
Gladiator's Longbow
Gah'zrilla
King Krush

Ice Lance
Unstable Portal
Counterspell
Ice Barrier
Ice Block
Mirror Entity
Spellbender
Vaporize
Kirin Tor Mage
Soot Spewer
Cone of Cold
Echo of Medivh
Ethereal Arcanist
Goblin Blastmage
Wee Spellstoper (No.)
Blizzard
Flame Leviathan (No)

Blessing of Wisdom
Eye for an Eye
Noble Sacrifice
Redemption
Repentance
Coghammer
Blessed Champion
Holy Wrath
Bolvar Fordragon
Cobalt Guardian
Lay on Hands

Silence
Shadowbomber (Hahano.)
Lightwell
Shadowboxer
Shadowform
Mass Dispel
Mindgames
Lightspawn
Upgraded Repair Bot
Vol'jin
Lightbomb
Temple Enforcer
Prophet Velen
Conceal
Betrayal
Defias Ringleader
One-eyed Cheat (...No.)
Patient Assassin (No.)
Cogmaster's Wrench (Is this really epic-worthy?)
Perdition's Blade
Headcrack (Noooo.)
Edwin Van Cleef
Iron Sensei
Sabotage (Doesn't seem worth it)
Master of Disguise
Ogre Ninja
Kidnapper (Wouldn't be worth it even if his ability didn't require combo)
Trade Prince Gallywix
Everything but Whirling Zap-o-matic, Siltfin Spirit Lurker, and Neptulon
Everything but power overwhelming, Flame imp, Floating Watcher, and siphon Soul
Inner Rage
Shield slam (Definitely need these at some point)
Upgrade
Warbot (Seems bad)
Battle Rage
Commanding Shout
Rampage
Slam
Ogre Warmaul
Bouncing Blade
Mortal Strike
Arathi Weaponsmith
Screwjank Clunker
Brawl
Siege Engine
Iron Juggernaut
Shield Maiden
Dr. Boom
Captain Greenskin (I mean, he's okay-ish)
Leeroy Jenkins
Cairne Bloodhoof
Toshley (I've been told he's good anyway. He seems underwhelming)
Baron Geddon
Sneed's Old Shredder

Obviously, I'm missing the most from Warlock, Druid, and Shaman. I play Paladin most frequently, but almost nothing on the list seems like a "Must have." Priest comes in second for deck I play most. I like Warlock, and would like to build Handlock, but only have one giant, and no Warlock legends. I like Mage and Rogue, though am not quite sure what to do with either. I quite enjoy Warrior. Hunter can be fun when I just need to grind. I don't really enjoy anything Druid does, and utterly despise Force Roar.

Shaman varies, and I'd like to have 2 of every Murloc for Shamanloc, just for fun. :smalltongue:

Gandariel

2015-01-07, 06:16 AM

Welp, that's a lot of stuff.

Assuming you play Arena, i'd say craft Classic cards first (since you will only be opening GvG packs now)

As for the rest, craft whatever you need for the deck you wanna play.
When the deck is finished, look to the next one you wanna try and craft those.

Cairne is really strong, but lately he isn't super hyper utilized, so i don't know.

As far as Pally and Priest, i'd say you're only really missing (in the Classic set) one copy of Lay on Hands for control Pally decks.

Handlock can be done without Jaraxxus (although it's highly suggested). Do you have Alextrasza?
You apparently also need three giants, plus Coil, Hellfire, Shadowflame, maybe Watchers and Faceless (go check some handlock list online)

Mystic Muse

2015-01-07, 06:39 AM

Handlock can be done without Jaraxxus (although it's highly suggested). Do you have Alextrasza?
You apparently also need three giants, plus Coil, Hellfire, Shadowflame, maybe Watchers and Faceless (go check some handlock list online)

I do have Alextrasza. I have all the basics, watchers, and one faceless. I also have Twilight drakes and the taunt granting minions already.

I may craft lay on hands of I don't get it in the next five packs or so.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-07, 08:58 AM

I have an account on both NA and EU, though I predominantly use the EU account. SilverSeraph #2931

I just had a game where I had 3 life and a Nerubian Egg with Taunt. Enemy uses Fireball... to clear the taunter.

Of course, they then use the other Fireball to clear me. I honestly don't know if it was a mistake that lucky-for-them didn't matter or not.

They call that 'bm' around these parts.

Gandariel

2015-01-07, 09:16 AM

Thialfi

2015-01-07, 09:34 AM

Warlock used to be my least favorite class. I hate rush decks, so zoo was out of the question for me and I never really liked handlock. Then I put together a demon deck and it now rivals my mage secret deck as my favorite. Voidcaller is awesome. I rarely actually pay to play Mal'ganis anymore. Illidan was actually my first ever legendary, so it's good to actually make him viable. I just added Jaraxus to it. I'm going to giggle the first time voidcaller pulls him out and I slap defender of argus on him against a zoo deck. I was skeptical about Imp-losion, but I almost always get good value out of it with power overwhelming or other buff spells. One thing I have noticed is that all my opponents really hate mistress of pain. I never buff her until I'm going to get an attack out of her, and people still go way out of their way to get rid of her to the point of ignoring bigger threats I have on the board.

I though control priest would be my favorite with shrinkmeister/cabal shadow priest or shadow madness/recombobulator shenanigans, but I really haven't played it much.

I guess hunter is now my least favorite class or warrior because every warrior deck is exactly the same.

Rosstin

2015-01-07, 03:06 PM

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/e8/e8ad35f6396b7e6593cd3986e969052a661715cc0c4c5165aa 19c0f3f54ae588.jpg

Your arrogance will be your undoing!

Joran

2015-01-07, 03:41 PM

best BM is the slowroll
Like, attack with all of your stuff in a hurry, then "miss" face and hit a minion with the last one

Wait for a few seconds

Emote "oops"

...

Oops..

And then Fireball his face

A good BM is top decking lethal (like a second swipe when you already have a swipe in hand), but using the one you just drew to kill him. Makes him think you just got lucky when he was already doomed ;)

I don't do this because I want people to enjoy the game.

Rosstin

2015-01-07, 04:02 PM

I don't BM because I feel like it's a waste of time for both players.

EDIT: I'm gonna try to apply for this job. It's a bit of a longshot but you can't hit if you don't swing. http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/posting.html?id=14000J7

-D-

2015-01-07, 07:14 PM

Become very good at Arena, and win more than it costs to enter? :smalltongue:
My best Arena was 5 wins. I just suck at it, so I gave up.

Sorry, for late reply, couldn't find the thread >_>

Mando Knight

2015-01-07, 09:31 PM

My best Arena was 5 wins. I just suck at it, so I gave up.

Sorry, for late reply, couldn't find the thread >_>

5 is good, actually. 3-3 means you're breaking even compared to just buying GvG packs outright. Aiming for 7 is for when you want your current Arena run to buy you your next (and only the top 9% or so of Arena players can actually reliably get 7 wins in a run, assuming the matchmaking isn't totally bogus).

Gandariel

2015-01-08, 01:22 AM

Yeah, the global average (for statistics reasons) is just slightly above 3.

With 3 wins mean you're basically buying packs, any more and you're buying discounted packs. 7 and you're getting them for free.

And frankly, when I had a small collection I much preferred Arena (since it let me play with always new cards try new stuff every time )

I actually still prefer Arena, but that's actually because playing constructed takes too much time.

Aside from earning me GvG packs and cash, arenas are simple, play (up to 14) games, get reward, repeat. Nothing (aside from my own desire to play more) is pushing me.
In constructed, I always feel I could no problem get to higher ranks, but it would take SUCH a long time, and it feels like a grind. I mostly play constructed for quests or to try out new decks.

Then again, I could play cancer Hunter until I got Legend, but that would feel really pointless.

Joran

2015-01-08, 02:24 AM

Yeah, the global average (for statistics reasons) is just slightly above 3.

Hmm... Can you explain the reasoning for this?

With 3 wins mean you're basically buying packs, any more and you're buying discounted packs. 7 and you're getting them for free.

And frankly, when I had a small collection I much preferred Arena (since it let me play with always new cards try new stuff every time )

I actually still prefer Arena, but that's actually because playing constructed takes too much time.

Aside from earning me GvG packs and cash, arenas are simple, play (up to 14) games, get reward, repeat. Nothing (aside from my own desire to play more) is pushing me.
In constructed, I always feel I could no problem get to higher ranks, but it would take SUCH a long time, and it feels like a grind. I mostly play constructed for quests or to try out new decks.

Then again, I could play cancer Hunter until I got Legend, but that would feel really pointless.

I agree with this, but funnily enough, I find arena more stressful. If I lose a game in ranked because of a misplay, no big deal. If I feel I drafted an OP deck, every loss is painful.

P.S. I used to average around 3 wins in arena. I greatly improved when I started watching Trump and Hafu play arena. Part of it is definitely getting better at drafting and avoiding trap cards. Another is trying to analyze moves ahead of time and thinking harder about the turns. I started getting pretty good once I started explaining all my moves to my wife, because it required me to think of the move, express it, and gave me time to reconsider.

I'm more of a Trump, conservative style grinding out card advantage player, than Hafu.

The_Jackal

2015-01-08, 02:29 AM

Yeah, the global average (for statistics reasons) is just slightly above 3.

For every win there must be a loss.

Gandariel

2015-01-08, 02:37 AM

12-2s, 12-1s and 12-0s exist. So not everyone finishes arenas with 3 losses.
so the average wins is not exactly 3

The_Jackal

2015-01-08, 02:53 AM

12-2s, 12-1s and 12-0s exist. So not everyone finishes arenas with 3 losses.
so the average wins is not exactly 3

Numbers of wins - number of losses = 0.

If you're counting the 12-0's, 12-1's, and 12-2's, then you've also got to count the many, many, many 0-3's that offset them.

Frog Dragon

2015-01-08, 03:08 AM

The average is actually slightly less than three, and the reason for this is 12/0s and 12/1s.

I don't really remember the exact math behind this, but consider this. You play arena, and you go 12/0. You can't win any more, so that's it. However, consider what happens if, in a bout of incredible confidence in your awesome 10 fire elementals deck you decide to instaconcede twice at 11/0. Then you win, bringing you to 12/2. You still got 12 wins, but you actually created 2 wins for other people by doing this, while not reducing your own.

Basically, the average would be three if runs could last arbitrarily long (because whenever you win, someone else loses), but since it's capped at 12, some players manage to go through arena without ever "giving up" the three potential wins they create by entering it.

Mystic Muse

2015-01-08, 03:44 AM

So, Gladiator's longbow. Keep or dust? I do play Hunter.

Frog Dragon

2015-01-08, 03:49 AM

The collector in me says "keep", but I don't think any competitive deck really runs it. Hunter decks tend to be too fast to fit it.

Hircine

2015-01-08, 04:02 AM

So, Gladiator's longbow. Keep or dust? I do play Hunter.

Before GVG came out I ran a Gladiator's Longbow in place of Leeroy Jenkins.

Gandariel

2015-01-08, 04:37 AM

Rosstin

2015-01-08, 01:18 PM

Xixo made a pirate deck O_o

Rank 18 or so legend

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/155896-xixos-pirate

-D-

2015-01-08, 04:04 PM

The thing is, I won 5 games once. It's more of a freak occurrence than not. I usually just take a between one or three wins and just lose all the time. It's super stressful, because I don't know how to manage in a custom deck.

I prefer playing ranked because I actually have a decent chance of winning without encountering some dumb **** like seven legendaries and twenty epic card, while my deck is mostly uncommon and rares. Casual mode is for masochists ._. or guys that bought +100 decks. There you can have all common deck vs gazillion legendary cards.

Gandariel

2015-01-08, 04:06 PM

If you add me on battle net i'd be happy to assist you in drafting an playing Arena. It's not hard, you just have to learn some key stuff. I'm on right now if you want
Ciabatta#2958

Frog Dragon

2015-01-08, 04:27 PM

I'd also be happy to help, if you happen to play on EU. Beware though, me and Gand may have contradicting opinions sometimes. :smalltongue:

My bnet is Vasemmasti#2618

Gandariel

2015-01-08, 05:07 PM

Eh, we are usually in agreement. Usually. :P

I too play only EU. May log in on US randomly, just to randomly spectate/chat

ShinyRocks

2015-01-08, 07:05 PM

There's something really satisfying about beating a Freeze Mage. When they Pyroblast you down to 20 from 30, just for something to do in their last turn before you lethal them. You may be designed for a long match, madam, but so am I!

Destro_Yersul

2015-01-08, 08:58 PM

Went 8/3 with Rogue Arena today. The deck was pretty good, but lacked hard removal. Thankfully the early game was so strong I could usually take and keep board control, but when I couldn't it went badly.

Then this happened:
http://i.imgur.com/F22f1Aq.png

Needless to say, I'm pretty happy.

Epinephrine_Syn

2015-01-08, 11:09 PM

Mystic Muse

2015-01-09, 12:57 AM

I got a legend in a pack today, and of course it was one I already had. :smallsigh:

Oh well, 400 dust anyway. I'm up to 1,060. 540 dust away from another Legend. Or I could get 40 more dust and craft all the Murlocs I'm missing if I felt particularly silly. :smalltongue:

Gandariel

2015-01-09, 01:55 AM

I'd be willing to help too, though you've already got quite a bit of help if you're on EU (though I can use my NA account to help too). SilverSeraph #2931

Or you could post a draft here, and all the choices you made during it. Those typically get a good amount of criticism (Though the best would probably be to do both).

Also, just got my golden warlock icon today, and while I was surprised by the fanfare in getting it, I felt good about it.

Absolutely: nobody had done that in a while, but writing down your draft and what you picked over what is actually really helpful: it is boring to make, but everyone can comment on them and point out any mistakes.
plus I've found that while recording the draft I tend to draft better: I am forced to take some time to write stuff down, so I think more instead of snap picking. Also I know I'll have to defend my choice to the Playground, so I make sure I actually believe every choice is right.

thirsting

2015-01-09, 07:23 AM

I think I'm getting the hang of this somewhat, but I'd like to hear if I made some stupid unobvious mistakes anyway..

Illuminator / Frothing Berserker / Imp Master
Kor'kron Elite / Inner Rage / Lord of the Arena
Nightblade / Bloodsail Raider / Fiery War Axe
Wisp / Tinkertown Technician / Wolfrider
Ogre Magi / Zombie Chow / Venture Co. Mercenary
Charge / Spiteful Smith / Cogmaster
Reckless Rocketeer / Inner Rage / Ancient Brewmaster
Frostwolf Grunt / Acidic Swamp Ooze / Death's Bite ((sort of regret not taking ooze..))
Cult Master / Goldshire Footman / Micro Machine
Piloted Sky Golem / Shield Slam / Mountain Giant
Death's Bite / Lost Tallstrider / Goldshire Footman
Razorfen Hunter / Grimscale Oracle / Mad Bomber
Argent Squire / Death's Bite / Dire Wolf Alpha
Emperor Cobra / Young Priestess / Violet Teacher
Gurubashi Berserker / Cruel Taskmaster / Magma Rager
Acolyte of Pain / Warbot / Shattered Sun Cleric
Ironfur Grizzly / Salty Dog / Dire Wolf Alpha ((no taunt yet))
Frostwolf Warlord / Youthful Brewmaster / Voodoo Doctor
Arcanite Reaper / Scarlet Crusader / Silvermoon Guardian
Sludge Belcher / Coldlight Oracle / Emperor Cobra
Stonetusk Boar / Mogu'shan Warden / Ancient Brewmaster
Salty Dog / Oasis Snapjaw / Heroic Strike
Slam / Rambage / Death's Bite
Execute / Magma Rager / Dancing Swords
Arathi Weaponsmith / Novice Engineer / Warsong Commander
Ogre Warmaul / Tauren Warrior / Warbot
Molten Giant / Brawl / Bouncing Blade ((other choices look fun but very unreliable))
Dark Iron Dwarf / Cogmaster / Faerie Dragon
Rambage / Elven Archer / Nightblade
Screwjank Clunker / Nerubian Egg / Coldlight Seer ((I have at least four easy ways to enable the egg))

Curve: 0/3/8/6/7/4/1/.../1

(7/3, not bad. Could have been at least 8 wins, but made some really stupid mistakes in one match)

Gandariel

2015-01-09, 07:33 AM

Couple comments :)

I think I'm getting the hang of this somewhat, but I'd like to hear if I made some stupid unobvious mistakes anyway..

Warrior. Don't like picking it, but quests.

Wisp / Tinkertown Technician / Wolfrider Tinkertown might have been ok too. it's still a vanilla 3/3, and there's plenty of good mechs you might take later. Still, probably right choice
Frostwolf Grunt / Acidic Swamp Ooze / Death's Bite ((sort of regret not taking ooze..))
Eh. Understandable pick.
Cult Master / Goldshire Footman / Micro Machine Might have considered Micro Machine, just because Warrior absolutely needs 2s. But Cult master is really strong.
Emperor Cobra / Young Priestess / Violet Teacher Whoa whoa whoa, what? Teacher (not by much)>Cobra > > > > >>> Young priestess
Ironfur Grizzly / Salty Dog / Dire Wolf Alpha ((no taunt yet)) Taunt is not mandatory. Still, dire wolf isn't amazing, so it's ok.
Frostwolf Warlord / Youthful Brewmaster / Voodoo Doctor Didn't bother reading your curve up to this point. Brewmaster was good too if you needed more 2s.
Arathi Weaponsmith / Novice Engineer / Warsong Commander Arathi Weaponsmith is crazy good in Arena. Really. And even if you already have 4 weapons. Seriously. It's that good.
Molten Giant / Brawl / Bouncing Blade ((other choices look fun but very unreliable)) Understandable. MIght have picked Brawl, but molten is good
Screwjank Clunker / Nerubian Egg / Coldlight Seer ((I have at least four easy ways to enable the egg)) Egg is always risky. But you do have some activators, and the others are crap.

So yeah, mostly comments, the only truly wrong choices IMO were not picking Violet teacher and Arathi Weaponsmith.

Gray Mage

2015-01-09, 10:55 AM

So, I'm currently using a Mech Rogue deck to climb ladder and I'm pleasantly surprised by how well it works. :smallbiggrin:
Fun to play as well.

thirsting

2015-01-09, 11:45 AM

So yeah, mostly comments, the only truly wrong choices IMO were not picking Violet teacher and Arathi Weaponsmith.

Yeah, I always stare at the special card text of creatures like Spiteful Smith and Violet Teacher and think "Won't pick that, I have no spells yet / this class does not use weapons" and forget to consider the attack/health stats might be good enough on their own. And yes, should have picked Arathi Weaponsmith.

But I'm not really regretting Young Priestess, this time through it's been a real asset. (have not encountered mages, rogues or druids yet, so it's been pretty good turn 1 card, and Frostwolf fuel.)

Anxe

2015-01-09, 01:13 PM

I declare the Hearthstone GVG Tournament officially begun! Start your engines contestants!

Mystic Muse

2015-01-09, 01:15 PM

I'll play my matches tomorrow after getting one more pack. I'd have liked another Legend before beginning, but short of getting a copy of a legend in my next pack, that won't be happening (need another 540 dust).

Rosstin

2015-01-09, 02:12 PM

Woot! Let's do it! I hope I can get my work done early today and do some matches.

Thialfi

2015-01-09, 02:42 PM

Yeah, I always stare at the special card text of creatures like Spiteful Smith and Violet Teacher and think "Won't pick that, I have no spells yet / this class does not use weapons" and forget to consider the attack/health stats might be good enough on their own. And yes, should have picked Arathi Weaponsmith.

But I'm not really regretting Young Priestess, this time through it's been a real asset. (have not encountered mages, rogues or druids yet, so it's been pretty good turn 1 card, and Frostwolf fuel.)

Until I tore it apart to put together my demon deck, I always ran 2 priestesses in my zoo deck. You know you made a good choice when your opponents always seem to try to kill that minion over others. It's like mistress of pain in my demon deck. I've had several people take her out and leave a floating watcher on my board.

That's a choice I wouldn't make, but then I see that a lot with this deck. Protip - if you find yourself playing against a warlock named ronshapard, silence his voidcaller or leave it on the board, he's not bluffing. There is a really big demon in his hand. If you can take out his 1/1 imp, do so instead of rushing his face with everything. It's not unlikely you are going to see power overwhelming and shadowflame.

Gandariel

2015-01-09, 03:07 PM

Priestess used to be good in Zoo, back before Naxxramas. Now there's too many sturdy minions for zoo, and priestess is not needed anymore.

Still, I stay by the fact that it's a terrible card in Arena.
2/1s for 1 are all bad, theres not much to say about it.
The only one that saves itself is Worgen, because it can't be pinged off. And maybe Abusive sergeant, since its Battlecry is often "deal 2 damage" and it becomes a Holy Smite with a free body attached.

And in general, a good Constructed card isn't immediately good in arena too. See Armor Smith, Undertaker, ice block.

Zevox

2015-01-09, 05:20 PM

Still, I stay by the fact that it's a terrible card in Arena.
2/1s for 1 are all bad, theres not much to say about it.
The only one that saves itself is Worgen, because it can't be pinged off. And maybe Abusive sergeant, since its Battlecry is often "deal 2 damage" and it becomes a Holy Smite with a free body attached.
I think Clockwork Gnome has some merit in arena as well. Still not going to be a high pick, but worth considering over poor cards, particularly if you get any mech synergy cards like Mechwarper or Tinkertown Technician.

Joran

2015-01-09, 05:27 PM

Priestess used to be good in Zoo, back before Naxxramas. Now there's too many sturdy minions for zoo, and priestess is not needed anymore.

Still, I stay by the fact that it's a terrible card in Arena.
2/1s for 1 are all bad, theres not much to say about it.
The only one that saves itself is Worgen, because it can't be pinged off. And maybe Abusive sergeant, since its Battlecry is often "deal 2 damage" and it becomes a Holy Smite with a free body attached.

I like Southsea Deckhand if I'm a weapon class sometimes. It's like the charging Murloc but 1 cost.

But yes, generally 2/1s are bad in arena, because rogues, druids, mages, and paladins can easily dispose of them. And you're more likely to face a mage in arena...