Tenebrous Apostate [3.5]

[dgmello]

The first time I read the text on Eternal Bondage I thought you no longer needing to summon Tenebrous to mean you didn’t need to use your daily simultaneous vestiges, but on subsequent readings I came to think it could mean one of your vestiges “slots” would be always taken by Tenebrous, which seems to me like a very harsh penalty, especially if you compare it to Anima Mage.

I've seen an old topic about this, but it was very inconclusive and I wanted to have some thoughts.

One day I will start playing a newer system...

[Psyren]

"In his place" implies he takes up a slot permanently.

He's not a bad vestige though. Seeing through magical darkness is a powerful ability in 3.5, Flicker is basically "Abrupt Jaunt (Shadowcaster Edition)" and of course his rebuke can be used to fuel DMM, which if you are a TA you are also a divine caster like cleric or ur-priest. Even if your DM rules you only get one turn attempt per cooldown, that's still a free metamagic of your choice on any spell - autosilence, autostill, autoextend, autoheighten+1 or some other +1 metamagic. The TA's 3rd-level ability arguably lets you spend 2 rebuke attempts at once, potentially opening up +2 metamagics as well or letting you heighten any spell +2 for free. You can also use Tenebrous himself to qualify for TA, letting you enter with other divine casting classes like Favored Soul - simply use Anima Priest to maintain your casting and binding progression long enough to reach him.

Finally, Umbral Body is immensely powerful - in addition to the more obvious benefits of being incorporeal, you also get Cha to AC and touch AC.

[dgmello]

Thanks Psyren, in fact, I’m playing an Anima Mage / Archivist (taking care not to abuse too much) and reading Tenebrous Turn/Rebuke Undead I see nothing barring it from qualifying for TA, or even for Divine Feats, unless the DM rules out any form of temporary ability, even those active at all times.
I like Tenebrous vestige, but it seemed to me like hindrance not to exchange it for a higher level one, but when using its turn undead for other purposes than turning (with its other great abilities as merely a bonus) it can really be worth it.
Alone for the ability to continuing increasing spellcasting and binding to maximum with Anima Mage (17-18th CL / 15th EBL) TA is already interesting, but I didn’t see much point for a no Anima Mage to take it otherwise (I didn’t remember Ur Prist though), I will read all of the class abilities more closely then, thanks.

About Tenebrous turn undead, I read it over and over but I cannot come to the conclusion you gain unlimited number of TU attempts (of course once every 5 rounds), as I understand it, upon binding Tenebrous, you gain the ability to Turn Undead (that is 3+Cha TU attempts), which you cannot use every round, but depletes the same source.
I don’t want to start a discussion or anything, I just want to understand where this conclusion come from, maybe it is something I didn’t understand right because of language problems, just point to me to any post/discussion/clarification about this.
About the use of Tenebrous TU to feed DMM, if you can really use only one attempt per 5 rounds, you cannot use it for DMM prior to TA, since DMM takes 1 TU +1 for level of the metamagic, which is 2 for +1 metamagic feats. Once again I want to know if I’m wrong.

It seems I’m not the only one playing and reading D&D 3.5 in times of D&D 5 :smalltongue:.
Thanks a lot!

[Chronos]

Tenebrous's Turn Undead uses aren't so useful for divine metamagic (though you could combine them with some other source to effectively reduce the cost), but there are a number of other divine and devotion feats for which 1/ 5 rounds is plenty.

[Crake]

"In his place" implies he takes up a slot permanently.

He's not a bad vestige though. Seeing through magical darkness is a powerful ability in 3.5, Flicker is basically "Abrupt Jaunt (Shadowcaster Edition)" and of course his rebuke can be used to fuel DMM, which if you are a TA you are also a divine caster like cleric or ur-priest. Even if your DM rules you only get one turn attempt per cooldown, that's still a free metamagic of your choice on any spell - autosilence, autostill, autoextend, autoheighten+1 or some other +1 metamagic. The TA's 3rd-level ability arguably lets you spend 2 rebuke attempts at once, potentially opening up +2 metamagics as well or letting you heighten any spell +2 for free. You can also use Tenebrous himself to qualify for TA, letting you enter with other divine casting classes like Favored Soul - simply use Anima Priest to maintain your casting and binding progression long enough to reach him.

Finally, Umbral Body is immensely powerful - in addition to the more obvious benefits of being incorporeal, you also get Cha to AC and touch AC.

You're forgetting that DMM requires metamagic adjustment +1 turn attempts, so having 1 turn at a time is completely useless for DMM. Also, I don't really see anything in the 3rd level ability that implies that your tenebrous turns give you 2 attempts per cooldown, it simply says you can spend 2 turns to perform a different effect, if you lack another source (which i believe, by RAI, is part of the requirements, seems silly to list both "bind tenebrous" and "turn/rebuke undead" if binding tenebrous would fulfill the turn/rebuke requirement", but RAW it would work) then the ability is just useless.


About Tenebrous turn undead, I read it over and over but I cannot come to the conclusion you gain unlimited number of TU attempts (of course once every 5 rounds), as I understand it, upon binding Tenebrous, you gain the ability to Turn Undead (that is 3+Cha TU attempts), which you cannot use every round, but depletes the same source.

The reason that people came to this conclusion is because every other source of turn undead explicitly states that it is limited in uses (3+chamod), and that every other binder ability also specifically states it is limited if it is. If it says it can be used every 5 rounds with no other stipulations, then it can be used every 5 rounds, no additional limit on it.

[dgmello]

Thank you all for the replies.

Now I understand the interpretation of the Tenebrous turn/rebuke ability, even if I myself would rule it differently, even knowing it may not be the correct or most accepted interpretation.
Another question: what would be the good divine feats to use with this idea of unlimited, yet 1 use every 6 rounds, turn undead attempts?

Psyren, I read again both the prestige class and the vestige and as I see it, almost all the good stuff is in the vestige part (I particularly like the combo from Deeper Darkness and See in Darkness, Flicker is very good even with only one or two uses per day, and TU has always its uses), it seems to me the only worthwhile ability of the Apostate is the Umbral Body, other than the 4 levels of increased spellcasting and binding.
It still seems to me like a waste for anyone but a divine Anima Mage or Ur-Priest (thanks for this one), since any binder can bind Tenebrous and use the best of the above abilities, and with added versatility.

Is there any other way to get to 9th level divine spells and 8th level vestiges for an Anima Mage other than Tenebrous apostate and Legacy Champion?
For this purpose, I think Tenebrous Apostate is really solid, you don’t need to keep a crappy item (or create a legacy) and convince the DM to allow Legacy Champion to expand Anima Mage beyond 10th level, it’s just clearer.

[Flickerdart]

Any of the Devotion feats that cost 1 TU and last a minute, like Travel, are fine to use with this.

[Ryuuk]

Some Divine feats, even if they are eclipsed by DMM, are also pretty good with Tenebrous. Divine Defiance from Fiendish Codex II lets you counterspell as an immediate action, with no need to ready a standard action. Divine Shield and Divine Might (Both from Complete Warrior I think) are pretty good if you want to hit things and might be hit back.

[Flickerdart]

Divine Shield and Divine Might (Both from Complete Warrior I think) are pretty good if you want to hit things and might be hit back.
Both of them are kind of rubbish here - Divine Might only lasts for one round so it essentially becomes 1/encounter, and Divine Shield takes a standard action to pop so it's not great in general.

[dgmello]

If I'm not mistaken, Travel Devotion uses up 2 TU attempts, so I will need to use one of the attempts from another source, right?

One more thing, Travel is not on the list of Tenebrous domains and something tells me it’s at least strange to take a domain outside your deity's list.
Is it even allowed?

[Talionis]

If I'm not mistaken, Travel Devotion uses up 2 TU attempts, so I will need to use one of the attempts from another source, right?

One more thing, Travel is not on the list of Tenebrous domains and something tells me it’s at least strange to take a domain outside your deity's list.
Is it even allowed?

First, I'm not aware of any limitations on taking Devotion feats. Even characters without Turn attempts can take them as feats. Other than they should make role play sense.

Second, you are also an Archivist which sorta makes you less attached to any single deity.

Last, because of the nature of Binding, I've always been a little loose on interpretation of TA's deity requirements, but that's mostly because we aren't big on Homebrew, so as minimal changes as can be made to fluff things like alignment and deity requirements we almost always house rule away so that people can have freedom to build what they want on a power level that Wizards felt was "balanced".

As for the Divine feats that eat turn attempts, they really aren't overpowered good so we've always allowed them to be used when Tenebrous is bound and they don't break the game. The five round cool down really is fairly solid for balance and fun game play. I wish Wizards had used cool downs on more mechanics.

[Flickerdart]

I wish Wizards had used cool downs on more mechanics.
And now you need a piece of paper with every single cool-down ability you have written on it, and every single turn you need to adjust the timer on each one. Nothx.

[dgmello]

Thanks again for the replies.

I don’t think this use of Tenebrous TU to be overpowered, unless used like an interpretation I’ve seen on a forum stating you could use it unlimitedly, with a 5 rounds cooldown, but able to use more than one attempt per use (3+CHA attempts per use to be more specific), it would allow you to DMM Persist every buff you can dream of casting. This, I think, is stretching the rules too much.

Talionis, how do I power Travel Devotion with Tenebrous? As I see it, I need another source for TU, is this the way?

About the limitation on Devotion feats, what made me come to the conclusion you could not take one outside your deity domains was the fact tis this kind of feat is call Domain Feat, and the 4th and 5th paragraphs on Domain Feats seem to infer only character who do not worship a deity can take almost anyone and thematically explain, as a Cleric without a deity has to do, it all is besides the point though.

Tenebrous Apostate specifically states you have to worship Tenebrous as a god, so I would say it shouldn’t be allowed, but if I do not take the PRC, I can choose the domain feats I want (roleplaying them), so I will steel have a look on domain and divine feats to see if I see some are worthwhile.

What books besides Complete Divine, Complete Warrior and Complete Champion have good Divine or Domain feats?

I like the idea of bilities with a cooldown, but I agree it would be a real work to keep track of more than a handful of them, at least for me.

[Crake]

First, I'm not aware of any limitations on taking Devotion feats. Even characters without Turn attempts can take them as feats. Other than they should make role play sense.

Actually there are limits. You are limited to 2 devotion feats, which must either be part of your god's portfolio, or, if you don't follow a particular god, the feats cannot be opposing (law and chaos) and must fit some appropriate theme that fits with your character (so a moon druid taking sun devotion wouldn't work) although that last one is very DM dependant. Clerics can also trade domains for domain feats as bonus feats (allowing them to surpass the usual 2 feat limit).

[dgmello]

Now that the doubts about Tenebrous are cleared, I would want some advice about the character.

Is there still a list of suggested Archivist spells (Cleric and other Divine spells) and a list of spells to make persistent (using the Anima Mage’s vestige metamagic or DMM)?
All links to old lists I found were broken.

I want mainly party buffs to make everyone happy, not turning me into a god.
I know a lot of spells to turn myself into a monster (Divine Power, Holy Transformation, Polymorph, Righteous Might, Visage of The Deity, Bite of X, …), but I don’t know a lot of divine party buffs to persist, the ones I remember are Mass Vigor series and Mass Conviction (is it really eligible to persist).

[malonkey1]

So you guys realize that Tenebrous would qualify you for Extra Turning, right? So you'd have another 4 TU sitting about, free to use at any time. (more if you take the feat multiple times).

[Chronos]

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a good persistable party buff.