Which races do you find ``overpowered?''

[danzibr]

I'm restarting an interesting thread I saw being necro'd the other day. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137331-which-races-do-you-find-overpowered)

In particular, I was perusing the thread and came across some pretty boss races I'd never seen before (Tortle!?).

For me, I'd like to throw out Minotaur, Saurian Shifter and good ol' Warforged.

EDIT: I don't really mean overpowered. I mean... powerful.

And by Minotaur I mean the Minotaur found in DCS.

[JeenLeen]

Pathfinder's strix seem that way to me. Free flight is the main reason, but their stats are pretty good (bonus Dex, negative Cha) and their racial hatred against humans is helpful if you fight bandits.

Other than that, any +2/+2 to stats with no -2 seems a bit overpowered, from a numbers standpoint. But free flight looks really good at low level.

[Flickerdart]

Minotaur is crap like most any other LA/HD race. Krynn Minotaur is better but not great.

Warforged can't even keep up with the ludicrous brokenness of Human, Dwarf, Strongheart Halfling, and Illumian.

[danzibr]

Minotaur is crap like most any other LA/HD race. Krynn Minotaur is better but not great.

Warforged can't even keep up with the ludicrous brokenness of Human, Dwarf, Strongheart Halfling, and Illumian.
???

The Minotaur I'm thinking of has no LA or RHD. Right, Krynn Minotaur.

[Tommy2255]

I think humans might be the only race that's recommended by almost every "[Class x] Handbook" on the entire internet. A free feat is better than +2 to your primary stat, -2 to your dump stat any day, which is typically the biggest advantage you'll get from choosing a different race for your desired class.

Level Adjusted races, especially those with racial hit die, have a hard time being overpowered, simply because race abilities are almost never as good as class abilities and don't scale well. LA buyoff changes that, but that doesn't mean LA races are OP, it means LA buyoff is sometimes OP. Even something like Minotaur just gives reasonable boosts to the least optimal classes. Whoop-de-freakin'-woo. They make terrible casters, and even as fighters, which they're supposed to be good at, a human at the same effective level will do better even if he's a Fighter, simply because the Minotaur has so much RHD and LA. A Minotaur without any levels in anything except RHD has an ECL of 8, and all he really gets for it is some decent stat bonuses for a melee (and horrible penalties for anything else), large size, and a charge attack that becomes irrelevant after a couple levels because it isn't a two handed weapon with power attack and shocktrooper.

Warforged are nice too, as are Shifters, but nothing with LA can compete with the class levels they could have had instead, and nothing without LA can compete with a bonus feat.

Strongheart Halflings, Azurins, or Silverbrow humans might also be strong contenders, as are Kobolds if the really cheesy nonsense is allowed (this breaks the rule I established earlier that no race can compete with bonus feats, but Kobolds also break every other rule too, so fair enough).

Edit: Swordsaged on the Minotaurs while I was busy writing all this. For Krynn Minotaurs, I'll just say that they get a bonus to Str and penalty to all mental stats, which makes them good at anything except being casters. Good for them, it's always nice to see melee get nice things. Doesn't make them overpowered. The "a bonus to strength is worth a penalty to two other abilities" rule that most races follow just makes melee worse. They get bonuses to the classes that most need bonuses and that's fair enough. Humans get a bonus to anything they want to do, because it's a bonus feat.

[MatrixStone93]

Catgirl/Catboys. If I'm remembering right, they get Cha and Dex bonuses for barely any cost. And they get Darkvision. Sure, it's no flashy mega game breaker, but it's still overpowered.

[Sith_Happens]

Do templates count? Because Unseelie Fey should not be LA +0.

[oxybe]

The brokenness of a lot of 3rd ed races (the ones with low-to-no LA and racial HD) is mostly applicable at low levels, and low levels only, mainly for the reasons why high LA/racial HD is generally unplayable at high level play:

Class levels and access to items matter more.

For a low-level PC, an orc's +4 strength means quite a lot but once you start hitting level 7-8 you'll notice it's impact far, far less.

This is why instead of looking at classes in the pure numbers, look at the non-numerical abilities.

This is why humans and their floating feat are rather powerful: it's versatile and opens up a lot of options, as well as helps you get your class's shtick going a bit faster.

It's the reason the outsider type is good: it allows for interesting polymorphing options.

3rd ed changeling / pathfinder's kitsune and it's natural shapeshifting open up a lot of different venues for how you look at solving some social skill based problems.

the pathfinder strix's free flight is up there as "woah" since it opens up a literal new dimension of play that can't be dispelled like most PC flight methods.

Spell-likes that grow in power with the character to stay relevant can also count towards borkedness, but only if it adds a new option. at-will acid splash is interesting and has applications, but still rather limited in how it affects your daily life or overall problem solving.

If you're going to stick to low-level play, though, you'll want stats to stay generally confined in the same overall +/- and racial abilities that don't change how a GM needs to plan his adventures or dungeons in a radical way.

[Sian]

Incarnate (Savage Species) Maug (Fiend Folio)

Large Giant 2RHD (with Outsider Skillpoints) +1LA with AlertnessB, +7 Natural Armor, +10Str, +4Dex, +2 Int, +2Cha,

[Inevitability]

Catgirl/Catboys. If I'm remembering right, they get Cha and Dex bonuses for barely any cost. And they get Darkvision. Sure, it's no flashy mega game breaker, but it's still overpowered.

+1 LA isn't a problem?

[Extra Anchovies]

Incarnate (Savage Species) Maug (Fiend Folio)

Large Giant 2RHD (with Outsider Skillpoints) +1LA with AlertnessB, +7 Natural Armor, +10Str, +4Dex, +2 Int, +2Cha,

Oooh, I like! Even though giant HD are absolute trash, I'm kinda tempted to play one of those.

[Sian]

Oooh, I like! Even though giant HD are absolute trash, I'm kinda tempted to play one of those.

Maug explicitly stating that they gain Skills as Outsider (8+int instead of 2+int) makes the Giant HD much easier to accept

[Ssalarn]

Dwarves, especially in Pathfinder. Other potentially potent races include the Styrix (like Strix but better), the Kasatha (they've got 4 arms and a racial archetype for dual-wielding longbows), and the Trox (+6 STR, Burrow, Darkvision, Frenzy, Grabbing Appendages, etc.).

In 3.5, Warforged, and things you might find in a FR supplement. Shifters are decent but nowhere near as good WF and about on par with humans and dwarves, so I wouldn't put them on the roster for this.

[WeaselGuy]

The Lesser Aasimar is hard to beat for MAD casters and DMM:P Clerics, and is one of the very few races with a bonus to Charisma without a level adjustment. They also get Daylight as a SLA and 60 ft darkvision.

[Gemini476]

Incarnate (Savage Species) Maug (Fiend Folio)

Large Giant 2RHD (with Outsider Skillpoints) +1LA with AlertnessB, +7 Natural Armor, +10Str, +4Dex, +2 Int, +2Cha,
Doesn't the Incarnate Construct template delete all of your existing feats, special abilities, and skill points? It's not really as good as people think it is.

Also, IIRC it literally sets your mental stats to 3d6 or something like that, which means you only really get to keep the Maug's +10Str +4Dex. And maybe the natural armour, I need to look up how exactly the template works again.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Lesser Aasimar is hard to beat for MAD casters and DMM:P Clerics, and is one of the very few races with a bonus to Charisma without a level adjustment. They also get Daylight as a SLA and 60 ft darkvision.

A DMM:P cleric is better off with Human, actually. They can either take Extra Turning another time, or (if no flaws are allowed) they can potentially get Extend (via Planning domain), Persist, and DMM: Persist all at level 1, opening them up to moar Extra Turning later on.

[WeaselGuy]

A DMM:P cleric is better off with Human, actually. They can either take Extra Turning another time, or (if no flaws are allowed) they can potentially get Extend (via Planning domain), Persist, and DMM: Persist all at level 1, opening them up to moar Extra Turning later on.

...

That works too I guess... But Lesser Aasimars are still awesome!

#grumble

[Jeff the Green]

None. Race power skews left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewness), meaning that the strongest ones are only a bit more powerful than the ones in the middle, but the ones in the middle are a lot more powerful than the weakest. So Human is better than Dwarf is better than Halfling, but all of them are much better than the dross.

Particularly execrable races include

Faun. Net -2 abilities, and basically the only thing they get from it is the fey type.
Shifter. Net -2 abilities, except when they're net 0. Only powerful racial options make them playable.
Buomman. You can't talk.
Asherati. They swim through sand and never need candles.
Wood Elf. So, you're geared toward being a warrior... and you have a penalty to Constitution?
Gully Dwarves. They are not a PC race. They're not even an NPC race. They're a joke the writers thought was funny but wasn't.
Lupin. So... Scent is enough to justify an entire race now?
Vasharan. "We're humans, but EVIL! So we get a bonus feat, but of course it has to be an EVIL bonus feat. Because we're EVIL!"
Every single goblinoid. Because net -2 abilities is worth being small and still having a 30 ft. speed.
Stonefire Dwarf. It's a dwarf... whose favored class is Wilder. Because they thought that made more sense than any of the three other classes in the XPH. Okay, so it's not really much worse than dwarf since their favored class isn't likely to come up even if it isn't houseruled away, but it's still offensive.

[kulosle]

I'm going to hands down vote for human. Seriously feats are ridiculously good. If we are to talk about templates then saint, or divine minion wins.

[ILM]

Yeah, if I go by which races I always seem to go back to, regardless of build, human's going to be right there on top.

Strongheart halflings, which have the same bonus feat, not so much because I really hate halflings.

[WeaselGuy]

Even acknowledging the utility of the Human's bonus feat (I'm not stupid), I almost never play one. I prefer something a little more exotic, with some interesting roleplay capability. For that single reason, I normally play the (arguably) worst race in core, the Half-Elf, or, the slightly better (but still bad) Half-Drow. If I'm actually trying to squeeze a little more cheese out of my build, I bring in Strongheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Warforged, or Lesser Tiefling/Aasimar, depending on the flavor of my build.

[Sian]

Doesn't the Incarnate Construct template delete all of your existing feats, special abilities, and skill points? It's not really as good as people think it is.

Also, IIRC it literally sets your mental stats to 3d6 or something like that, which means you only really get to keep the Maug's +10Str +4Dex. And maybe the natural armour, I need to look up how exactly the template works again.

Form the start

Incarnate Construct merely doesn't give you any feats that you would gain from "becoming a living creature". It doesn't mention anything about removing feats nor what would happen if the construct allready had feats from being a pseudo-living creature (such as Maug would argubly be)

Same history for Skills

Incarnate Construct removes special abilities and Special attacks, but the additional skillpoints from counting as Outsider instead of *whatever* is not listed as either of those.

the Template only rolls your abilities if they are Stat: -, most commonly Con or Int, it doesn't inherently change allready existing stats, and it explicitly rolls 4d6b3, not 3d6

as for Natural Armor, a Medium (or smaller) sized Incarnate *whatever* keeps their Natural armor up to a maximum of +3. A Large (or larger) Incarnate *whatever* (which Maug is), keeps their Natural armor up to a Maximum of +9

[Extra Anchovies]

None. Race power skews left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewness), meaning that the strongest ones are only a bit more powerful than the ones in the middle, but the ones in the middle are a lot more powerful than the weakest. So Human is better than Dwarf is better than Halfling, but all of them are much better than the dross.

Indeed. There's some pretty hilariously bad races out there, your list is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm liking that Winter avatar, by the way.

[Greenish]

Whisper gnomes are nifty lil' buggers, but whoever designed them was clearly thinking more "oh boy, my next character is going to be awesome" and less "how does this compare to other races".

[Doc_Maynot]

I have a soft spot for Dvati and Diopsid.

Diopsid have the neat ability to do TWF with Two-Handed Weapons or with larger sized one handed weapons and can ignore the Dex requirement of those feats.

And Dvati do have that thing with double the action economy.

[Extra Anchovies]

I have a soft spot for Dvati and Diopsid.

Diopsid have the neat ability to do TWF with Two-Handed Weapons or with larger sized one handed weapons and can ignore the Dex requirement of those feats.

And Dvati do have that thing with double the action economy.

Diposid are fun, because they're an ECL 1 four-armed race (which is much better than ECL 3 Thri-Kreen, especially with LA buyoff). I'm not a fan of Dvati because of the split HP and how limited the action economy is (but I mostly just don't like the concept).

[kulosle]

You could also say some races are over powered because polymorph/wildshape/metamorphosis exists. Hydra, Tako, Dire tortoise.

[animewatcha]

With the dark chaos shuffle, doesn't elf give you like 4 free feats?

[Flickerdart]

With the dark chaos shuffle, doesn't elf give you like 4 free feats?
DCFS is overpowered. Elf is fine.

[Greenish]

Catgirl/Catboys. If I'm remembering right, they get Cha and Dex bonuses for barely any cost. And they get Darkvision. Sure, it's no flashy mega game breaker, but it's still overpowered.
+1 LA isn't a problem?Catfolk are probably better than average for +1 LA, but still rather unexceptional. Also they don't get Darkvision.

[Ruethgar]

Lesser Fey'Ri, hands down.
Edit: Also all of the core dragons since you can start at LA +0 with 2 sorcerer levels and get flight at the cost of a feat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Edit: Also all of the core dragons since you can start at LA +0 with 2 sorcerer levels and get flight at the cost of a feat.

What? How? None of the MM1 dragons have a starting ECL of less than five.

[kulosle]

with or without greater demonic abilities?

[Ruethgar]

What? How? None of the MM1 dragons have a starting ECL of less than five.

Dragon Magazine #320 and #332. Though the dragon classes reference the Savage Species monster classes, it never says that they are Savage Species monster classes and thus you can multiclass out of them as you please, it even provides (bad) suggestions of multiclass classes to choose. It also never says you even need to take so much as one level of the racial class and provides the racial traits of each of the ten dragons without the racial LA and HD. You don't get much if you just go with the base dragon, but you are loredrakeable and have the dragon type and thus qualify for anything with the dragonblood requirement(such as improved dragon wings).

As to the question with or without demonic abilities, which I assume is in reference to the Lesser Fey'ri, the lesser adjustment removes all LA along with the outsider type but nothing else unless otherwise noted. Really it should only be a -1 LA, but WotC isn't great at that whole foresight thing.

[animewatcha]

Tell us more on the dragon thing, I'm looking through 320 and so far noticed a blerb of cannot take character class until finishing current age category.. still looking through.

[WeaselGuy]

But WotC isn't great at that whole foresight thing.

If that isn't sig-able, I don't know what is...

[Ruethgar]

Tell us more on the dragon thing, I'm looking through 320 and so far noticed a blerb of cannot take character class until finishing current age category.. still looking through.

It also creates a new age category which you have completed by being a true dragon PC at all, you just can't take any dragon class levels without going to wyrmling.

[Taveena]

Lesser Fey'Ri, hands down.
Edit: Also all of the core dragons since you can start at LA +0 with 2 sorcerer levels and get flight at the cost of a feat.

So... fun fact about the Lesser Tanarukk.

It still has 5 RHD.

And yet has an ECL of 1. That's what the Lesser template does. Drops your ECL to one and changes your type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched).

So you're 4 HD ahead of the rest of the party. THAT'S overpowered. :D

[Extra Anchovies]

So... fun fact about the Lesser Tanarukk.

It still has 5 RHD.

And yet has an ECL of 1. That's what the Lesser template does. Drops your ECL to one and changes your type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched).

So you're 4 HD ahead of the rest of the party. THAT'S overpowered. :D

Now that. I like that.

[Inevitability]

So... fun fact about the Lesser Tanarukk.

It still has 5 RHD.

And yet has an ECL of 1. That's what the Lesser template does. Drops your ECL to one and changes your type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched).

So you're 4 HD ahead of the rest of the party. THAT'S overpowered. :D

http://media2.giphy.com/media/etmqZvzyywRRS/200.gif

[Ruethgar]

So... fun fact about the Lesser Tanarukk.

It still has 5 RHD.

And yet has an ECL of 1. That's what the Lesser template does. Drops your ECL to one and changes your type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched).

So you're 4 HD ahead of the rest of the party. THAT'S overpowered. :D

Ok, you win, Fel Orc > Fel Elf.

[TheGeckoKing]

Ok, you win, Fel Orc > Fel Elf.

Ha! That isn't even it's final form! BEHOLD! (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b)


Mur-zhaguls* are planetouched creatures descended from the mingling of trolls and demons, much as a tanarukk is descended from orcs and demons. They combine the feral voraciousness of their troll ancestors with the supernatural malice and cunning of their fiendish blood. Demon trolls often live among gangs or bands of normal trolls and usually rise to their leadership.

*Note: The Unapproachable East book itself allocates the Mur-Zhagul an LA of +8, now made +0.

[Ruethgar]

Ha! That isn't even it's final form! BEHOLD! (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b)

*Note: The Unapproachable East book itself allocates the Mur-Zhagul an LA of +8, now made +0.

Now this is just getting ridiculous. At least the Fey'Ri even out after a few levels. Play one of these in E6 and you win.

[StoneCipher]

The thing about lessers that most people ignore though, is that they only exist if the DM makes them available. Because there are no coexistant lesser planetouched AND normal planetouched. You only get one or the other which by default is the normal planetouched unless the DM says otherwise, which any DM would be CRAZY to mention.

[Curmudgeon]

So... fun fact about the Lesser Tanarukk.

It still has 5 RHD.

And yet has an ECL of 1. That's what the Lesser template does. Drops your ECL to one and changes your type from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched).
Can you point out where it says that? I don't see anything in the Lesser Versions section of Player’s Guide to Faerûn which makes that claim. I do see where it says "such characters never have to worry about level adjustments", and thus you might be able to go from the Tanarukk's LA +3 to LA +0; however, there's nothing about ECL that I could see there.

[TheGeckoKing]

That is my understanding of the variant as well - If you want to play silly-powerful races at 1st level, you need the equally stupid Powerful Races at 1st Level variant on p190 of the same book.

[Inevitability]

"such characters never have to worry about level adjustments".

How about LA you gain after choosing your race? Vampire, anyone?

[Taveena]

While you're right that it's never stated the RHD is counteracted, this line - "Two variant systems are presented in the following sections. Both provide ways of starting a character of a powerful race with a 1st-level party of adventurers -" says that this results in a character starting at first level. Though I did, in fact, misread it the first time round, and it seems keeping the RHD isn't quite as explicit as I (mis)remembered. Still, even if you lose the RHD with the LA... Lesser Tanarukk is broken as hell.

[Ruethgar]

I think I would prefer the Mur-zhagul, even without the RHD, large alone makes it worth it and it has a slew of pretty nice abilities.

[Ssalarn]

Can you point out where it says that? I don't see anything in the Lesser Versions section of Player’s Guide to Faerûn which makes that claim. I do see where it says "such characters never have to worry about level adjustments", and thus you might be able to go from the Tanarukk's LA +3 to LA +0; however, there's nothing about ECL that I could see there.

I must need to re-check this as well. My understanding is that RHD + LA = ECL and I couldn't see anything that would indicate that you can keep your RHD and still be ECL 0.

[Curmudgeon]

How about LA you gain after choosing your race? Vampire, anyone?
It's worth pointing out that having a level adjustment and having to worry about a level adjustment aren't the same things. Should any DMs tell you to keep the level adjustment but simply don't let it cause your character distress, they've got the RAW on their side. :smallbiggrin:

[Taveena]

It's worth pointing out that having a level adjustment and having to worry about a level adjustment aren't the same things. Should any DMs tell you to keep the level adjustment but simply don't let it cause your character distress, they've got the RAW on their side. :smallbiggrin:


"According to the rules, you're not allowed to be upset about this." Nice.

[Flickerdart]

"According to the rules, you're not allowed to be upset about this." Nice.
No, it just says they never have to worry. They still can if they want to.

Conversely, this implies that non-lesser Planetouched are required to worry about their level adjustment at some point. Not the player. The character.

[Extra Anchovies]

No, it just says they never have to worry. They still can if they want to.

Conversely, this implies that non-lesser Planetouched are required to worry about their level adjustment at some point. Not the player. The character.

Just what we needed, another excuse for angsty tieflings.

[Inevitability]

Just what we needed, another excuse for angsty tieflings.

This thread is now officially my favorite. :smallbiggrin:

[Svata]

Hmm... Voting time for "Best thread of 2014"?