Air+War Cleric/Druid or Air+War Cleric/Fighter? Also, War or Strength?

[MatrixStone93]

Which is better in a multi-character combat situation, an Air/War Cleric/Fighter, or an Air/War Cleric/Druid? Or Air/War Cleric/Fighter/Druid? Hawk animal companion, if applicable. Also, how would an Air/War Cleric act? Finally, which would be more useful to a badass leader and master strategist/tactician type with 6-8 allies, Air+Strength domains, or Air+War domains?

[eggynack]

I can't tell if you're asking about a team up, or a party with several characters. Multi-character implies the latter, while the three class majig near the end implies the former. The latter is a pretty easy question to answer though, so it's worth saying that cleric+druid is a better team up by far than cleric+fighter.

As for the former question, it's somewhat trickier. In particular, it depends quite a bit on how much cleric we're working with here. I'm inclined to think a small amount, because cleric dips are cool, but the domains you've chosen don't work too well with the whole cleric dip thing. Given those domains, in fact, I would stay away from multiclassing. It seems you're inclined towards cleric here, given that it factors into everything, so just go cleric. Cleric/druid doesn't really add up all that well, even if both classes are amazing, and cleric/fighter again depends a lot on making better use of domains.

[MatrixStone93]

I can't tell if you're asking about a team up, or a party with several characters. Multi-character implies the latter, while the three class majig near the end implies the former. The latter is a pretty easy question to answer though, so it's worth saying that cleric+druid is a better team up by far than cleric+fighter.

As for the former question, it's somewhat trickier. In particular, it depends quite a bit on how much cleric we're working with here. I'm inclined to think a small amount, because cleric dips are cool, but the domains you've chosen don't work too well with the whole cleric dip thing. Given those domains, in fact, I would stay away from multiclassing. It seems you're inclined towards cleric here, given that it factors into everything, so just go cleric. Cleric/druid doesn't really add up all that well, even if both classes are amazing, and cleric/fighter again depends a lot on making better use of domains.

Better use of domains? What do you mean?

Also, the Cleric/Fighter/Druid guy is one person in a party of around 7-9.5 minmaxers/munchkins/cheesies/rollplayers/those guys who treat it like a video game and be awesome and make awesomely powerful characters. (As opposed to those guys who treat it like an awesome book to be awesome and make awesome characters). Anyway, he's supposed to be the badass tactician/strategist guy and leader of a group of badass awesome guys. And some form of wind power or bird ability or animal companion Hawk/Falcon or something. He needs the bird/wind thing, even if it's just a Ring of Some Air Spell/Wand of Some Air Spell.

Preferably, he'd have some way to boost his team's abilities, and some form of wind spell or badass combat skills, but he doesn't need all of them. Just being able to hold his own while also having plenty of spells/tricks to use in plans would do.

By multi-character, I meant that the heroes would fight many enemies at once, except when there's a major boss battle going on.

[eggynack]

Better use of domains? What do you mean?
In this particular instance, I was referring to the potential of a one level cleric dip, particularly as applies to using complete champion to trade out domains for devotions. A traditional maneuver is taking cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for the knowledge domain, and trading it for knowledge devotion, which acts as a +x to attack and damage based on your knowledge roll as applies to the identification of a particular monster. That tends to at least give parity with whatever basic combat stats you were getting otherwise. From there, you get say animal or law devotion, for an even bigger stat bump, and then maybe magic domain for wand use or travel devotion for free movement. The most basic build possible of that sort is something like cleric 1/fighter 19, but you really don't need that many fighter levels. For a more thorough overview, I'd advise checking out the cleric dip handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0).

Beyond that, your domains just aren't doing that much work for you. Look at the war domain, for example. The domain ability isn't the worst, though it actually is the worst if you're using fighter, but out of the spells, only the three power words at the end are adding to your list at all. It's a small addition, and the spells themselves aren't great, or particularly different than what you usually do. Compare that to, say, the travel domain. Only three spells from that list are held in common with your own, and the teleportation effects you get are substantially different than the other spells you have. Air domain is reasonable though, at least because control winds is sweet.


Also, the Cleric/Fighter/Druid guy is one person in a party of around 7-9.5 minmaxers/munchkins/cheesies/rollplayers/those guys who treat it like a video game and be awesome and make awesomely powerful characters. (As opposed to those guys who treat it like an awesome book to be awesome and make awesome characters). Anyway, he's supposed to be the badass tactician/strategist guy and leader of a group of badass awesome guys. And some form of wind power or bird ability or animal companion Hawk/Falcon or something. He needs the bird/wind thing, even if it's just a Ring of Some Air Spell/Wand of Some Air Spell.

Preferably, he'd have some way to boost his team's abilities, and some form of wind spell or badass combat skills, but he doesn't need all of them. Just being able to hold his own while also having plenty of spells/tricks to use in plans would do.
Let's make this simple then. What of your plans can't be handled with just a straight druid 20, using the many wind spells they naturally have access to, hanging around in some flight form, with some flying companion? It seems like it'd handle all of the things you're trying to accomplish reasonably. Fighter doesn't really help you with these goals you have. Cleric 20 is fine also, but mixing it up with druid isn't doing you any favors.

Edit: Incidentally, a book list may be helpful. If you just have core, things are still workable, but options tend to make things work better.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, I have a few suggestions, as long as you don't mind being a non-full caster.

First, the option with minimal casting, the Moonsea Skysentinel, from FR-CoV. Requires BAB 5, 8 ranks in Handle Animal and Ride, Mounted Combat, and some affiliation. Gives a Dire Hawk as a mount and some spell deflection goodies. I would recommend entry via Ranger levels, so that you can have a hawk animal companion, some good archery feats, a couple spells (and wand access), and good skills. And carry a Lance, for when you either run out of arrows (blasphemy) or just feel like charging the big bad for obscene damage. Also, invest in a ring of feather fall...


Option 2, medium casting. Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Prestige Ranger (or Paladin) 2/Skylord. You have to be an Elf or a Half-Elf (not half-elf) and have to be Exalted Good (Skylord is in BoED) but you get a celestial flying mount from the first level of Skylord, chosen from either Pegasus, Giant Eagle, or Giant Owl. It has 5/10 casting progression, but massive bonuses to mounted combat, and the abilities to not be screwed over in a storm.

Speaking of storms (and with absolutely nothing to do with hawks or falcons), you could go with Bard/Stormsinger (from Frostburn)... one of it's signature abilities has you make a Perform check, and do that much lightning damage to your target with a ranged touch attack, as a standard action, as many times per day as you want.

Alternatively (but within the storm category) there's the Human (or Strongheart Halfling, which I recommend) Druid 5/Stormlord (FR-Faiths and Pantheons)... You have to have Talos as your patron deity, who I'm pretty sure has some component of evil, but hey, that's just fluff, right? Worship the storm itself and go to town... Anywho, Weapon Focus (Javelin or Spear), Endurance, and Great Fortitude are the feat prereq's (lame) but every weapon you throw gets the Shock, Thundering, or Shocking Burst property for free, and you pretty much become immune to storms. There's an item set in the MIC that was basically designed for this, and I also recommend Gloves of Endless Javelins. Lets you make an unlimited amount of +1 Force Javelins to throw around

But yeah, that's all I really have for you, I personally favor the Moonsea Skysentinal or the Stormlord, but you can take your pick of these or any suggestions above.

[DMVerdandi]

Definitely agreeing with eggynack.

You are going to dilute the power of the codzilla by mixing them with fighter, even for a single level. Don't brah. The real struggle you should be asking yourself is do you prefer the cleric or the druid.

nature, or spirit. Those are the two choices you have to make. Cleric gets you great alignment based spells, fantastic buffs , and turning shenanigans.
Druid gets you elemental spells, animal buffs, sweet animal companion, and wild shape.

Both is generally a bad idea, but either or, taken to 20 is beautiful.
if you want to weaken them, but not weaken their spell casting, take ACFs.
Without gestalt it's not worth taking both classes.
cAdzilla is just ugh... delicious.

[Troacctid]

It's not unreasonable to go Cleric 1/Druid 19 or Druid 1/Cleric 19. Cleric is a classic dip that can add some utility to most any character, while Druid can give you some goodies like Wis to AC and... whatnot. An even mix of the two makes no sense, though, I'm afraid, unless you do something like taking Southern Magician to go into Arcane Hierophant.

[MatrixStone93]

Well, I have a few suggestions, as long as you don't mind being a non-full caster.

First, the option with minimal casting, the Moonsea Skysentinel, from FR-CoV. Requires BAB 5, 8 ranks in Handle Animal and Ride, Mounted Combat, and some affiliation. Gives a Dire Hawk as a mount and some spell deflection goodies. I would recommend entry via Ranger levels, so that you can have a hawk animal companion, some good archery feats, a couple spells (and wand access), and good skills. And carry a Lance, for when you either run out of arrows (blasphemy) or just feel like charging the big bad for obscene damage. Also, invest in a ring of feather fall...


Option 2, medium casting. Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Prestige Ranger (or Paladin) 2/Skylord. You have to be an Elf or a Half-Elf (not half-elf) and have to be Exalted Good (Skylord is in BoED) but you get a celestial flying mount from the first level of Skylord, chosen from either Pegasus, Giant Eagle, or Giant Owl. It has 5/10 casting progression, but massive bonuses to mounted combat, and the abilities to not be screwed over in a storm.

Speaking of storms (and with absolutely nothing to do with hawks or falcons), you could go with Bard/Stormsinger (from Frostburn)... one of it's signature abilities has you make a Perform check, and do that much lightning damage to your target with a ranged touch attack, as a standard action, as many times per day as you want.

Alternatively (but within the storm category) there's the Human (or Strongheart Halfling, which I recommend) Druid 5/Stormlord (FR-Faiths and Pantheons)... You have to have Talos as your patron deity, who I'm pretty sure has some component of evil, but hey, that's just fluff, right? Worship the storm itself and go to town... Anywho, Weapon Focus (Javelin or Spear), Endurance, and Great Fortitude are the feat prereq's (lame) but every weapon you throw gets the Shock, Thundering, or Shocking Burst property for free, and you pretty much become immune to storms. There's an item set in the MIC that was basically designed for this, and I also recommend Gloves of Endless Javelins. Lets you make an unlimited amount of +1 Force Javelins to throw around

But yeah, that's all I really have for you, I personally favor the Moonsea Skysentinal or the Stormlord, but you can take your pick of these or any suggestions above.

I like options one and two. But what do you mean by "A Half-Elf, not a half-elf"?

[WeaselGuy]

I like options one and two. But what do you mean by "A Half-Elf, not a half-elf"?

Well, the requirements for Skylord say you have to be either an Elf or a Half-Elf, but Half-Elf sucks, so don't be it. I would recommend Painted Elf, they get +2 Str and -2 Int, so you don't take that hit to Con like many other elves do.

My recommendation on that build is to worship Corellon Larethian, take War as one of your domains to get Weapon Focus (Longbow). Buy a warhorse (and military saddle) and a composite longbow at first level. For your 1st feat, take Mounted Combat. At level 3 take Ride-By Attack, and at 5 (your bonus feat from fighter) take Spirited Charge. At 6, take Prestige Paladin and pick up Point Blank Shot for your feat, and at 9 take Rapid Shot.

You're going to want to get Riding Boots (12k) and either Horizon Goggles (8k) or Helm of the Hunter (12k). If you opt for the Helm of the Hunter, also get Bracers of Aerial Combat (5k). The bracers give you +1 to attack rolls while you or your foe are airborne, and having them and the Helm gives you Feather Fall as an at-will ability, saving you 2.2k gp from having to buy the Ring of Feather Falling. There are other threads around here and on brilliantgameologists focusing on mounted combat, with a much more comprehensive list of gear, but I ran a character in a campaign last year where I was a Paladin/Aglarondan Griffon-Rider, and these are a few tips I picked up from playing him. Good Luck :D

[atemu1234]

Cleric with war and strength. Multiclassing seems pointless, but throw on a gish PrC or two and you're golden.

[MatrixStone93]

I'm going for a badass leader guy, a master strategist with a bunch of tricks he could use for brilliant plans.
.

[eggynack]

I'm going for a badass leader guy, a master strategist with a bunch of tricks he could use for brilliant plans.
That doesn't really exclude a straight cleric or druid. Most of those things are character traits, really, which means that they don't really exclude any class, but what few things you desire of mechanics, a fighter is unlikely to provide at a high level of capability.

[MatrixStone93]

Okay. If I wanted/needed that functionality, or could get allies to play certain characters, what would make good allies to a mastermind?

Also, what's the best Gish Prc, and what is Gish? I'm assuming Prc means Prestige Class.

[WeaselGuy]

Okay. If I wanted/needed that functionality, or could get allies to play certain characters, what would make good allies to a mastermind?

Also, what's the best Gish Prc, and what is Gish? I'm assuming Prc means Prestige Class.

Gish is a caster/physical combatant hybrid. Cleric is the best gish, with a few feats and an item or two, they can increase their size, their strength, their constitution, their hit points and their base attack bonus for 24 hours at a time.

Second to cleric is probably the wizard/fighter/abjurant champion/eldritch knight combination, or the sorcerer/paladin/abj-champ/eld-knight...

There are various other forms as well, but those are the 3 most popular ones.

[MatrixStone93]

Okay, cool. Like a Spellblade, but good?

Anyway... What kinds of abilities and classes would make The Ultimate Leader? And what would he want on his party, if he planned on making epic plans to defeat entire armies and shock the world and leave them in awe with no choice but to follow him or become ultimately irrelevant and eventually fall to bandits/other countries or something?

[Troacctid]

For that, your character will need Charisma, for Diplomacy and Intimidate and (preferably) the Leadership feat, but you'll have to supply the intelligence out-of-character, since you can't exactly roll a d20 to come up with a brilliant strategy.

[WeaselGuy]

For a Tactics and Command type of character, I would say either go with a Bard, a Crusader, a Paladin or a Marshal. There's the Legendary Leader PrC in Heroes of Battle, it requires you have Leadership as a feat, and cranks it up to 11... If you can convince all of your party members to play the same race, I would say play a Warchief from The Miniatures Handbook, it gives stacking Strength bonuses to your "Tribe", and gives you bonuses to Charisma as the class progresses.

[MatrixStone93]

The Leadership feat does look good, how can I optimise that? I typically use an android phone with google keyboards, how can I fix this damn piece of crap so it won't be so laggy that it'll freeze up for ten or more secs if you type too quickly with your thumbs, and it won't glitch out on you like a bad install of abiword? And finally, what kinds of melee fighters would be useful subordinates to a leader like this? Because the way things are planned now, he'll likely have a bunch of spellcasters divine, arcane and warlock, but no melee fighters other than a possible super- fast rogue or fighter or some crazy-fast prestige class/class variant. By the way, what would the fastest level 10 3.5e character be, when all books are allowed, but homebrew is banned forever?

[DMVerdandi]

The Leadership feat does look good, how can I optimise that? I typically use an android phone with google keyboards, how can I fix this damn piece of crap so it won't be so laggy that it'll freeze up for ten or more secs if you type too quickly with your thumbs, and it won't glitch out on you like a bad install of abiword? And finally, what kinds of melee fighters would be useful subordinates to a leader like this? Because the way things are planned now, he'll likely have a bunch of spellcasters divine, arcane and warlock, but no melee fighters other than a possible super- fast rogue or fighter or some crazy-fast prestige class/class variant. By the way, what would the fastest level 10 3.5e character be, when all books are allowed, but homebrew is banned forever?

If you still want to play a cleric, a way to optimize charisma is to take the dynamic priest feat at level 1. It is a dragon lance supplement, but who cares. Anyhow, it switches your casting stat to charisma, so now both it, and your turning is charisma based.

Be careful with leadership though. It's a quick way to break the game. In fact, I would simply focus on the cohort. Perhaps have the followers be NPC's in a town, or temple that you are founding.
The real focus is on your cohort.

Rogues aren't super fast by design. Neither are fighters. There is the run feat, but that isn't much.
The fastest, killingest character is probably a deadly hunter ACF druid with the first level of the build being a spirit lion totem barbarian.
Spells, Speed, and pounce. Druid has some fantastic buffs to unarmed/natural attacks, so it is definitely something of a harrier.

You can't wild shape with that ACF, but that's okay. It's got more of a tribal skirmisher feel rather than a shapeshifter.