Help. Wizard starting at level 10 with no spell book.

[magicalmagicman]

A DM I potentially want to play with said we're starting at 10th level with no equipment whatsoever, including your spellbook.

He will not let me spell mastery teleport and let me go fetch a backup, as it will ruin the initial setting.

He said no tattoo spellbooks at the start, but I can make one if I want, along with all the other variant spellbooks.

Is there someway a cleric in my party can help me get some spells? He said we will be stranded and away from civilization for the foreseeable future.

Is there a rule saying you can learn a spell under a creature with the spell-like ability? Like a planar allied tutor.

[Malroth]

Eidetic spellcaster variant with reserve feat blasting untill you can catch up on the stuff you're supposed to have. Barring that Find a new group.

[ninjamaster1991]

The Eidetic Wizard ACF trades away Scribe Scroll (which is decent) and the Familiar (which is often an XP bomb) for the ability to memorize spells rather than copying them into a spellbook. You need to pay the gold cost in incense rather than ink, but you can't run out of pages or lose it.

[magicalmagicman]

Which book does eidetic spellcaster reside in? If it is not core or any of the complete books I'm afraid I can't use it.

[Troacctid]

Ultimate Magus would let you cast some spells spontaneously without a spellbook.

[Lanson]

Eidetic Spellcaster is in a dragon magazine article.

I'd suggest rolling up a sorceror, a divine caster that doesnt need a book, or walk away from the group. Not allowing a wizard to have a spellbook at lvl 10 and thinking you can contribute is nonsense. You'd be a glorified commoner with no abilities other than whatever your familiar has as spell likes.

Oh, have an imp or quasit familiar, improved familiar as the feat and at least 1 step away in alignment will get you them by lvl 10, have them use their teleport without error up to 50 lbs to recover your spellbook if you can't spell mastery teleport to it.

[ninjamaster1991]

Unfortunately, Eidetic Wizard is in Dragon magazine (#357).
However, Mage of the Arcane Order is a Complete Arcane prestige class that lets you turn spell levels into spells - even ones you don't know.

[Malroth]

Gnome Illusionist into Shadowcraft mage (races of stone) with Illusion mastery (Unearthed Arcana) and Spontaneous Divination (complete champion) You'll be able to cast any Illusion, conjuration, Divination or Evocation spell spontaneously

[magicalmagicman]

I see, so there is no way you can get spells in short of buying stuff from a scroll merchant. That's a little disappointing but I guess I'll go sorcerer then. Just wanted to know if wizards can get spells without scrolls other than leveling up.

[RoboEmperor]

Planar ally a bearded devil. Ask from it a spell book with the spells you want. He will then petition it to his pit fiend lord, who will gladly use wish to make one for you.

The catch for this method is you become lawful evil and arguably un-resurrectable.

Alternatively, planar ally a glabrezu. Make it use its wish to make you a spell book with the spells you want, and then follow through on your bargain and commit some extremely atrocious evil act. Then go on a redemption thing.

[Lanson]

Gnome Illusionist into Shadowcraft mage (races of stone) with Illusion mastery (Unearthed Arcana) and Spontaneous Divination (complete champion) You'll be able to cast any Illusion, conjuration, Divination or Evocation spell spontaneously

This. Do this. It is one of the most versatile and powerful wizard builds there is, most of it is unambiguous and you will still be highly effective, just make sure you have the heighten spell metamagic to boost your silent image spells to any spell level you want for use with your Shadowcraft mage abilities.

[Rebel7284]

Spontaneous Divination has been errataed to mention spells you KNOW as I recall.

Besides that, shadowcraft mage is certainly a great option for this scenario. For those people suggesting "walk away" really? You have to work with a DM. Worst case, you *gasp* have to play a tier TWO arcane caster so that the DM can have his story.

[Lanson]

For those people suggesting "walk away" really? You have to work with a DM. Worst case, you *gasp* have to play a tier TWO arcane caster so that the DM can have his story.

It's not a question of the Tier you play. I'ts a matter that the DM specifically is not allowing wizards to have their spellbooks, you know, the only thing that allows them to memorize spells outside of spell mastery, which he EXPLICITLY stated you cannot mastery teleport to a backup book for spells. And with his not allowing tattooed spellbooks to work generally makes me think that if his goal was to work with wizard players, he seems to have failed. If his story requires gimping a class, ANY class, he should possibly think of just flat out banning the classes he does not like rather than neutering them.

Either that, or it's a cheesy "You start with nothing, but then I deus ex machina it away at first chance after my dmpc guides you to town and buys you all new things, and anything you can do that's interesting to circumvent my script will be squelched immediatly" At least, from me experience that's what happens in these situations.

[avr]

OK, you can't Spell Master Teleport. How about other spells? If you'll be getting your spellbook back in a few sessions, Spell Mastery for a handful of useful spells may allow you to take part in the game until then.

[Extra Anchovies]

How about a tattoo spellbook, from Complete Arcane? If your DM tells you that your skin is equipment, than insist that the party fighter have his taken away too.

[magicalmagicman]

He's not banning any classes, as he is perfectly ok with other tier 1 classes. He said he was inspired by path of exile's start, and wanted something similar.

Tattooed wizards would have their tattoos erased before being tossed overboard to disarm them, just like how they'll take away all equipment before tossing a fighter overboard. Spell mastery is allowed, just not teleport or anything that will let you leave the campaign.

He told me unless I could find a way to learn spells along the journey, I should pick a different class.

After searching this forum a bit more, I came across planar binding mercanes as a magic mart. I am not entirely sure if he'll allow this, but we are starting with 0 wealth. He said there is going to be 0gp in the campaign and everything has to be traded, not sold and bought.

He recommended us to use eschew materials if we are going arcane spellcasters.

I will go sorcerer unless someone here gives me a method I think is good. The devil/demon bargaining is one possibility, but I am not sure whether I wish to do that, especially since it involves wishes. He doesn't have races of stone so shadowcraft is not allowed either.


How about a tattoo spellbook, from Complete Arcane? If your DM tells you that your skin is equipment, than insist that the party fighter have his taken away too.

I cannot start with a tattoo spellbook, only create one after it starts. The party fighter is starting with no equipment as well.


OK, you can't Spell Master Teleport. How about other spells? If you'll be getting your spellbook back in a few sessions, Spell Mastery for a handful of useful spells may allow you to take part in the game until then.

Spell mastery of other spells is allowed. Which spells would you recommend?

[torrasque666]

How about a tattoo spellbook, from Complete Arcane? If your DM tells you that your skin is equipment, than insist that the party fighter have his taken away too.
Already mentioned. Declared as something that can't be started with. Can be made in-game though.

[Lanson]

He's not banning any classes, as he is perfectly ok with other tier 1 classes. He said he was inspired by path of exile's start, and wanted something similar.

Tattooed wizards would have their tattoos erased before being tossed overboard to disarm them, just like how they'll take away all equipment before tossing a fighter overboard. Spell mastery is allowed, just not teleport or anything that will let you leave the campaign.

He told me unless I could find a way to learn spells along the journey, I should pick a different class.

After searching this forum a bit more, I came across planar binding mercanes as a magic mart. I am not entirely sure if he'll allow this, but we are starting with 0 wealth. He said there is going to be 0gp in the campaign and everything has to be traded, not sold and bought.

He recommended us to use eschew materials if we are going arcane spellcasters.

I will go sorcerer unless someone here gives me a method I think is good. The devil/demon bargaining is one possibility, but I am not sure whether I wish to do that, especially since it involves wishes. He doesn't have races of stone so shadowcraft is not allowed either.

Have whatever Improved Familiar you have teleport without error and get your book, or whatever. It allows you to function normally, without totally breaking the suspension of disbelief. You're a 10th level character, and 95% of the world is 1st, you didn't get there by being unable to recover your spellbook. Hell, you can even have your Imp(if it is an imp) use it's commune to find out where the book is (granted, the dm would have to work with you on this). Or, just use the aformentioned Shadowcraft Mage and go with no book at all.

[Troacctid]

Wizard is totally still viable if you theurge. It's generally not difficult to qualify for theurge classes with only one lost caster level, which puts you in the same spot as a Sorcerer of the same level. You can use the non-Wizard side for the start of the campaign, and then once you get the chance to scribe some spells into your book, you're fully functional again.

[RoboEmperor]

Wizard is totally still viable if you theurge. It's generally not difficult to qualify for theurge classes with only one lost caster level, which puts you in the same spot as a Sorcerer of the same level. You can use the non-Wizard side for the start of the campaign, and then once you get the chance to scribe some spells into your book, you're fully functional again.

If that DM's plan is any similar to my DM's plan, the only scrolls you're going to get are from random loot.

I highly suggest you pick sorcerer.

Or

someone on this forum finds a way wizards with nothing or almost nothing can learn spells other than by using wish.

[MilesTiden]

Ignore me I'm a butt.

[Troacctid]

If that DM's plan is any similar to my DM's plan, the only scrolls you're going to get are from random loot.

I highly suggest you pick sorcerer.

Or

someone on this forum finds a way wizards with nothing or almost nothing can learn spells other than by using wish.

A two-level dip in Chameleon lets you take Extra Spell for your floating bonus feat every day. Scribe the spell into your book and choose a new spell the next day. You can also get all the 1st and 2nd level spells you need as long as they're on a divine casting class's spell list.

Edit: I guess that's not in the available books.

[Sith_Happens]

Tattooed wizards would have their tattoos erased before being tossed overboard to disarm them

Um... How? One does not simply remove a tattoo.


Spell mastery of other spells is allowed. Which spells would you recommend?

Summon Monster V. Summon a Hound Archon, which has Greater Teleport at will. Tell it where you keep your backup Blessed Book. Problem solved.

[RoboEmperor]

Um... How? One does not simply remove a tattoo.

Erase Spell. Or the standard cut and heal.




Summon Monster V. Summon a Hound Archon, which has Greater Teleport at will. Tell it where you keep your backup Blessed Book. Problem solved.

That breaks the scenario of starting with nothing. The DM will for sure declare no backups.

Is there a rule saying you can learn a spell by studying a creature who knows the spell? I remember in the DMG there's a passage about a sorcerer learning new spells from a dragon, so why not a wizard? Then you'd have access to every single planar-bind-able creature's SLA as long as you spell mastery planar binding spells.

I'm sure celestials have access to scrolls and bring some to you, but the guy is starting with 0 wealth so...

But it's an option. Be a -1 until you get some gear and then trade scrolls with outsiders once you get some loot to trade.

Grab reserve feat, heighten spell, and a spell mastery of a fire spell. You won't be a -1 at the start.

[Kraken]

Seconding mage of the arcane order. Use spell mastery for some staple spells, and mage of the arcane order can get you access to any PHB spell. Except teleport, it mysteriously will be unavailable in the spellpool I'd imagine. :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

Seconding mage of the arcane order. Use spell mastery for some staple spells, and mage of the arcane order can get you access to any PHB spell. Except teleport, it mysteriously will be unavailable in the spellpool I'd imagine. :smallbiggrin:

No access to spell pool because you'll lose your focus according to the start scenario.

[busterswd]

If it's like the beginning of Path of Exile, the very first thing you do is find an item that allows you to start using your skills; ask him if your first item can be a spellbook with a few spells in it already.

[Sith_Happens]

That breaks the scenario of starting with nothing. The DM will for sure declare no backups.

No it doesn't, you did start with nothing, you just happened to have a way of quickly getting something.:smalltongue:

Besides, a spellbook is just not the same thing as other equipment. Not letting you have one is the equivalent of not letting a Sorcerer know any spells.

...Which gives me an idea. Play a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard. Know Teleport.:smallwink:

[RoboEmperor]

I got it!
1. Bind a succubus (spell mastery lesser planar binding + dimensional anchor + magic circle + lesser geas)
2. Kiss it
3. Fail the fortitude saving throw and permanently lose the level.
4. Use the succubus to kill some stuff
5. Level up
6. Repeat 2-6.

XP is a river.

But this is dumb. Wizards should have a legit way of researching spells without level ups or an entire well stocked metropolitan library and magic mart.


If it's like the beginning of Path of Exile, the very first thing you do is find an item that allows you to start using your skills; ask him if your first item can be a spellbook with a few spells in it already.

Very valid point. I second this.

[Renen]

A two-level dip in Chameleon lets you take Extra Spell for your floating bonus feat every day. Scribe the spell into your book and choose a new spell the next day. You can also get all the 1st and 2nd level spells you need as long as they're on a divine casting class's spell list.

Edit: I guess that's not in the available books.

Well, it should be. Because path of exile casters arent nearly as depwndant on spells as are dnd ones.

[Coidzor]

Why is the DM starting at level 10 with this kind of scenario? :smallconfused:

[sorcererlover]

DMG quote:

If you require wizards to actually spend game time on spell research to gain those new spells, assume it takes one day per spell (but no roll is needed for spells that come with level advancement) and that such research costs twice what it would normally cost to have an NPC cast the spell for the character.

So arguably, you can relearn any spell you gained via level up (or any spell you had in your spell book) just by spending 1 day and the requisite gold cost. These are spells you researched on your own and just needed a little experimentation to write it into your spell book. But it doesn't remove the fact that you're highly dependent on civilization.

You could probably planar bind a Mercane, and borrow money and stuff from him and pay him back with interest. I don't see why a Mercane can't get you all the exotic magical inks and paper you need.

I know BoED is not allowed, but if it was you could planar ally/bind an ursinal and have it teach you everything it knows. At least that's a start.

[RoboEmperor]

Go one step further with the mercane debt thing. It only has a +2 to charisma, so planar bind one, ask it to get you a spell book with 100 pages completely filled out, and say you'll pay the 5000 later, or with interest.

Doesn't even have to be a mercane, but might take him 100days minimum to acquire one.

[Bullet06320]

craft papermaking
craft bookbinding
craft ink
knowledge nature

use them skill points creatively and make the rest of the party guard you while you make a new a spellbook then scribe all your spells still in your head and mastered into the new book

[RoboEmperor]

craft papermaking
craft bookbinding
craft ink
knowledge nature

use them skill points creatively and make the rest of the party guard you while you make a new a spellbook then scribe all your spells still in your head and mastered into the new book

Merge them all to craft wizardry tools XD

[Kelb_Panthera]

Erase shouldn't work on tattoos.


Erase removes writings of either magical or mundane nature from a scroll or from one or two pages of paper, parchment, or similar surfaces.

Skin is hardly like paper of any kind and tattoos are more like pictures of writing than proper writing. More importantly, a smart wizard's tattoo spellbook isn't writing at all but arcane geometry figures. You can fit a lot more of them on your body that way and they aren't nearly as obviously arcane spell formulae.

[Snowbluff]

Why not a Rainbow Warsnake sort of build? Or if you're doing Shadowcraft Mage, how about Beguiler for Int Casting?

[Curmudgeon]

Skin is hardly like paper of any kind and ...
Parchment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment) is skin, just scraped down. In historical times you used paper only for unimportant writings because the acid in normal wood pulp causes the paper to yellow and crumble fairly rapidly. All important writings were on parchment or vellum.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Parchment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment) is skin, just scraped down. In historical times you used paper only for unimportant writings because the acid in normal wood pulp causes the paper to yellow and crumble fairly rapidly. All important writings were on parchment or vellum.
Parchment -was- skin. Now it's a finished product derived from skin. It's lost pretty much every property of being skin at that point except for being a contiguous sheet. Leather is far closer but not much use for writing.

The point is "or similar surfaces" refers to things like vellum, papyrus, a slate tablet, etc. Things intended and prepared for writing.

The interpretation the DM is using would allow erase to remove an etching from a sword's blade; filling in the minute crevices rather than properly erasing anything.

I realize that I'm arguing RAI here, but the RAW is ambiguous enough to demand interpretation and the DM is using an interpretation that screws over a player for no reason other than to force him onto the rails. That just grinds me the wrong way. Ya know?

[RoboEmperor]

Tattoos are ink. That's why I think erase works on it. Its not our modern tattoos, its magic ink on your skin that gets absorbed and goes down or something. Kinda like those old tattoos in india or somewhere.

[lord_khaine]

The DM newer specified how tattoo's would be erased, might as well either be overwritten, cut off or healed away. And how the tattoo's are removes is a minor point.

What matters now is that we have the initial setup of the adventure, and the GM's reasoning for it.

So anyway, the OP can either select nothing but Spell Mastery as his feats and still deliver a meaningful contribution due to being a wizard, or he can alternatively pick another class like Sorcerer or Psion.

[aleucard]

Or if he really wants the access to the Wizard list, a StP Erudite. The fact that he learns normal powers more often than not from stones is fitting for the campaign setting, too, since they essentially use Materia for skills.

[ILM]

For god's sake, just speak to your DM and work someting out with him. A wizard 10 without a spellbook is basically a Commoner 10 who can cast Read Magic a bunch of times per day. Your DM has a reason to include this limitation and, unless he's way off on how D&D works, has a plan to get you caught up on the equipment you're lacking at some point. Explain you don't feel like flopping through encounters like a fish out of water for the first few weeks, and ask if there's any options he'd care to suggest that would let you have fun with this character while staying within the bounds of his setting.

However, if his only suggestion is "don't play a wizard", consider carefully if you really want to commit to this game.

TLDR: IMO, this requires an OOC settlement with the DM.

[Orderic]

Well, the easiest option would be to just play a sorcerer.

If you can get him to allow Libris Mortis, you could try playin a necropolitan with a level in Geometer and the spells etched onto your bones. Lets see them try to erase that.

The Spells are tattooed on the skin of your improved familiar, which will teleport to you, after you are no longer in danger of having the spells erased.

Alacritous Cogitation allows you to cast a spell spontaneously 1/day.

Play a conjurer and take spontaneous summoning. Cast summon monster spontaneously, at the cost of not getting the additional spell slots of a specialist wizard.

OR: Play a warlock. Laugh at silly wizards and sorcerers, who have to rest to cast.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tattoos are ink. That's why I think erase works on it. Its not our modern tattoos, its magic ink on your skin that gets absorbed and goes down or something. Kinda like those old tattoos in india or somewhere.

What you're describing is henna tattoos. They're very temporary and go on much, much faster than real, permanent tatoos. They come off with a bit of scrubbing.

Real tattoos, like what the alt spellbook employs, are done exactly the same as modern tattoos, just slower. The tattooist dips a needle in ink and drives it into the skin just enough to impregnate the skin with pigment. It's a long, tedious, painful process that people -used- to undergo for spiritual reasons or as a sign of devotion to their lords.

[avr]

If you take Spell Mastery to get some spells to tide you over I'd go with something like (assuming 20 Int)

Mirror Image as your basic defensive spell.
Haste as your basic buff.
Web or Solid Fog for battlefield control.
If you can start with a 100 gp gem, Magic Jar lets you turn an enemy into an ally. If not, Dominate Person will hopefully let you acquire a bunch of allies.
Polymorph as a general purpose spell.

[jordan.k93]

Guys ffs, stop trying to break the DM's campaign, coming up with BS methods of getting around the DM's limitations makes you an asshat.

The limit's are OOC, if you want to get round them, then handle it OOC.

I don't mean, just play a wizard with commoner power, I mean, things like spell mastery and the like, abide by the limits, don't use BS trickery to get around them.

Imagine:
DM: "Ok guys, so you wake up stranded on a beach with nothing but the rags on your back and iron on your wrists."
Wizard: "I call my familiar and command him to retrieve my book and gear" [Or ya know, insert whatever BS work around here.]
DM: "Wizard, you serious?"
Wizard: "Yes! HAHA DM YOU SUCK, I AM SO CLEVAR, LOOK AT HOW CLEVAR I AM! HARHARHAR"
DM: "...A boulder falls off a nearby cliff and crushes the wizard."

[WeaselGuy]

Guys ffs, stop trying to break the DM's campaign, coming up with BS methods of getting around the DM's limitations makes you an asshat.

The limit's are OOC, if you want to get round them, then handle it OOC.

I don't mean, just play a wizard with commoner power, I mean, things like spell mastery and the like, abide by the limits, don't use BS trickery to get around them.

Imagine:
DM: "Ok guys, so you wake up stranded on a beach with nothing but the rags on your back and iron on your wrists."
Wizard: "I call my familiar and command him to retrieve my book and gear" [Or ya know, insert whatever BS work around here.]
DM: "Wizard, you serious?"
Wizard: "Yes! HAHA DM YOU SUCK, I AM SO CLEVAR, LOOK AT HOW CLEVAR I AM! HARHARHAR"
DM: "...A boulder falls off a nearby cliff and crushes the wizard."

I don't know that it's so much coming up with "BS trickery" to get around the DM's plot device, as it is magicalmagicman wants to play a Wizard, but wants to be able to contribute as much as the cleric who's also in the party, without being gimped for the first few sessions (assuming no further plot device such as finding a conveniently lost spellbook). Now, that being said, do I think the Imp teleporting out and grabbing a backup spellbook is a little cheesy? Sure, but not more so than being a Necropolitan with the spells etched into my bones or sacrificing half a dozen feats just to be able to cast that many spells without preparation.

[Spore]

craft papermaking
craft bookbinding
craft ink
knowledge nature

use them skill points creatively and make the rest of the party guard you while you make a new a spellbook then scribe all your spells still in your head and mastered into the new book

That's the most elegant way to do it ingame. Bonus points for including the party in the crafting process. Have the ranger get enough hide. Let the rogue search for colorful herbs etc.

Tell the DM you have a little intro quest prepared because nothing says "Robinson Crusoe" like crafting a highly sophisticated thing as a spellbook out of bark, hide and selfmade ink. Combine this with the mentioned tactics of improved familiars (let them shift to their masters and strike a deal; this way the DM doesn't feel "dethroned"). as well as Planar Binding (don't overdo it, but a NG wizard could easily tell his good outsider that you need to conjure food and shelter for your friends as well as need some spells to get off this island.

But the most important point: Tell your DM you WANT to play a wizard and that you have some ideas how to get SOME spells. However be acceptant that your spell progression will always be somewhat hindered.

On another sidenote: Being a wizard 10 and not having prepared for the possibility of being stranded somewhere with no access to - at least some of - your spells is failing fluffwise pretty hard. If you force that upon your character concept you may fail pretty hard fluff- and crunchwise.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think an ultimate magus is your best bet. It grants you sorcerer spells known you can copy into the first spellbook you find, while also granting you some spells to start off with.

We can even pull it off with only one lost spellcaster level.

Kobold
Sorcerer 1 / wizard 4 / ultimate magus 6

Ok, so here is the trick. You take the greater rite of passage for a free level of sorcerer casting. Practiced spellcaster allows you to end up with CL 6 vs your CL 4 wizard casting. This allows you to keep advancing wizard casting all the way through ultimate magus.

At your starting level you are casting as a sorcerer 6 with a CL of 12 and as a wizard 9 with CL of 12.

You have a few extra spells known due to ultimate magus, one 1st, one 2nd, and one 3rd to be specific. You also have a SLA of a 1st level spell you can use 3/day. You will also be taking spell mastery at 9th level. The important spell to pick up this way is fabricate. You also get 3-5 other spells (16 int, +2 from levels, +3 from tome, +5 mod) (you spent all your WBL on a tome of clear thoughts +3 right?). Take some nice 4th and 5th level spells to help you survive your first days. I suggest as a complete list Fabricate, Overland flight, Black Tentacles, Enervation, and maybe greater invisibilty. Take stuff the cleric CANNOT just pull from his diety. This means your 1st level feat was practical spellcaster and your 3rd level feat was draconic reservoir. This frees up your 6th level feat for a metamagic, I suggest maximize.

Now, starting off will be rough. You are casting as a sorcerer 6 using your wizard casting to fuel metamagic. Maximized CL12 fireball solves a number of problems through application of 60 fire damage. Your 4th and 5th level spells are limited.

Once you get your feet under you, you can start killing things and skinning them for leather. You can use the following skills without ranks: Craft (books), craft (stonecrafting), and Craft (alchemy or chemistry). This means you have the ability to make books, inks, and stone objects (VERY IMPORTANT FOR WHAT COMES NEXT).

Now, the cleric is going to LOVE you. He is almost in the same boat, lacking a holy symbol. The FIRST thing you are going to do on landing is to pick up a rock and fabricate it into a holy symbol for the cleric. Now, kill something and gather a bunch of fibrous plants. Cast Fabricate again to craft a spellbook. Survive for 24 hours, gather stuff you can craft into ink. Cast fabricate again to make ink, scribe your sorcerer spells known into your wizard spellbook. Now you can act more like a wizard with free maximize than a sorcerer with a little high end wizard casting.

Now, you are going to equip the rest of the party, 2 items a day. Masterwork weapons and armor are just a matter of getting your hands on metal to fabricate into stuff. Abuse the cleric casting guidance of the avatar to autopass the craft checks for masterwork despite lacking ranks (craft can be done untrained).

Beg the cleric to build as an item crafter. If he takes craft wonderous items and arms/armor, you can keep him stocked with the physical items for him to enchant.

[Elkad]

If you get to start with a full selection of spells memorized, it just sounds like a challenge. You'll have more power than the naked fighter, but every spell you cast is one you can't scribe into a book when you get one.

I'd go for it.

Add a reserve feat for blasting or Spell Mastery for a few (5-6) choice spells if you are chicken.

[Darrin]

Take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil). Consider making the race Spellscale, as this gives you access to Eschew Materials, but you can switch to a different meditation later once you get spell components. This will turn you into a nerfed mini-sorcerer for a while, but you can at least contribute and hopefully keep yourself alive long enough to get your hands on another spellbook.

Hmmm. Can Sanctified spells be prepared without a spellbook? Someone said BoED was not allowed but I didn't see that in the OP. If that specific book isn't allowed, there are some Sanctified spells in Champions of Valor.

As Oderic pointed out, Alacritous Cogitation can be used to cast one spell spontaneously. Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) can also be used to prepare domain spells without a spellbook... so pick a domain with a good mix of spells. Hmm... combined with a reserve feat... Slime domain + Acidic Splatter with Melf's acid arrow heightened to 5th gives you a 5d6 ranged touch attack that you can spam every round. Slime also has grease and Evard's hentai fetish. If Slime won't work, maybe Sun or War domain with Energy Substitution to make flame strike an [acid] spell.

[ericgrau]

Barring that Find a new group.
(and everyone else who said the same thing)

Wtffffff. "Omg I cantz have my toyz, laterz. QQ."

It's clear that this is temporary, that the DM is doing it fairly to all PCs and it's part of the plot. Get over it, it won't last. It's not like the melee are that great without their swords. They can grapple a little better than you but still not very well. And when this temporary setback is over the OP will be doing quite well.

If he takes sorcerer he also needs to watch his spell components. So eschew material components or locate object or spells without components.

It would be best to talk to the DM and see what he will allow. Will he allow spell mastery on spells besides teleport? Will he allow eidetic spellcaster? His reason for not allowing teleport to spellbook was simply that it would ruin the opening. So maybe the big problem is using metagame knowledge to select the spell mastery spell and other spells would be fine. Even a couple spells prepared multiple times to fill all your slots would put you way ahead of others.

Anyway I wouldn't invest excessively into it since it seems temporary. Find a few general purpose spells you can get by with in a variety of circumstances. Locate object + solid fog + [empowered] fireball + wall of ice would cover a lot of combat and utility. Overland flight or passwall may help you get to whatever equipment or plot point you find with locate object.

[WeaselGuy]

(and everyone else who said the same thing)

Wtffffff. "Omg I cantz have my toyz, laterz. QQ."

It's clear that this is temporary, that the DM is doing it fairly to all PCs and it's part of the plot. Get over it, it won't last. It's not like the melee are that great without their swords. They can grapple a little better than you but still not very well. And when this temporary setback is over the OP will be doing quite well.

If he takes sorcerer he also needs to watch his spell components. So eschew material components or locate object or spells without components.

It would be best to talk to the DM and see what he will allow. Will he allow spell mastery on spells besides teleport? Will he allow eidetic spellcaster? His reason for not allowing teleport to spellbook was simply that it would ruin the opening. So maybe the big problem is using metagame knowledge to select the spell mastery spell and other spells would be fine. Even a couple spells prepared multiple times to fill all your slots would put you way ahead of others.

Anyway I wouldn't invest excessively into it since it seems temporary. Find a few general purpose spells you can get by with in a variety of circumstances. Locate object + solid fog + [empowered] fireball + wall of ice would cover a lot of combat and utility. Overland flight or passwall may help you get to whatever equipment or plot point you find with locate object.

That rationale right there? That's why I would make a VoP Druid or Sorcerer...

[Lanson]

Guys ffs, stop trying to break the DM's campaign, coming up with BS methods of getting around the DM's limitations makes you an asshat.

The limit's are OOC, if you want to get round them, then handle it OOC.

I don't mean, just play a wizard with commoner power, I mean, things like spell mastery and the like, abide by the limits, don't use BS trickery to get around them.

Imagine:
DM: "Ok guys, so you wake up stranded on a beach with nothing but the rags on your back and iron on your wrists."
Wizard: "I call my familiar and command him to retrieve my book and gear" [Or ya know, insert whatever BS work around here.]
DM: "Wizard, you serious?"
Wizard: "Yes! HAHA DM YOU SUCK, I AM SO CLEVAR, LOOK AT HOW CLEVAR I AM! HARHARHAR"
DM: "...A boulder falls off a nearby cliff and crushes the wizard."

First of all, this isn't about tricking or outsmarting the DM, the op asked how he could play a wizard without blowing harder than a hurricane, we offered suggestions, many of which would befit a mid level wizard and only slightly break immersion. Bashing those who have tried to fufill the op's request only makes YOU "look like an asshat"as you so eloquently put.

I only suggested walking away because I've dealt with dm's who have done this, and more often than not, they never gave us equipment that was enchanted, never gave us downtime and still expected us to defeat enemies of our cr, if your campaign turns this road, walking makes sense.

[WeaselGuy]

First of all, this isn't about tricking or outsmarting the DM, the op asked how he could play a wizard without blowing harder than a hurricane, we offered suggestions, many of which would befit a mid level wizard and only slightly break immersion. Bashing those who have tried to fufill the op's request only makes YOU "look like an asshat"as you so eloquently put.

I only suggested walking away because I've dealt with dm's who have done this, and more often than not, they never gave us equipment that was enchanted, never gave us downtime and still expected us to defeat enemies of our cr, if your campaign turns this road, walking makes sense.

Bolded for emphasis; Been there, done that, the t-shirt was a lie. It sucked, horribly. We were told, at the beginning, "don't worry guys, it'll get better, you'll find the equipment you'll need". I was lucky that as a Bard, I had taken the spell "Create Instrument", so that the whatever number of skill points I had put into stringed instrument weren't wasted, unlike the dual-wielding katana specialized fighter that played at the same table. He was never able to find a pair of katanas the entire campaign, because "lol, those are oriental weapons, this is a european themed country". He was the first to walk, halfway through the 3rd session, nobody else showed up to the 4th session except me and the dm. I drew the short straw to tell him nobody else was coming.

So, all that being said, hey, if the DM promises you'll find the gear you need to make your character viable, hope he delivers and that you have better luck than me. In the mean time, plan for the worse and you won't be disappointed by the outcome. Now, time for me to make a VoP Sorcerer.

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't count on the gear you want. I wouldn't even count on a lot of gear. But I would count on gear after the introductory period of 1-5 sessions or whatever. Wizards do peachy dandy on low gear.

Many plots could make your equipping time limited though so when you do get a spellbook make it a point to get everything else you need immediately and don't count on getting more later. Maybe the DM will be good about it, maybe he won't. Who knows. So probably no spells with expensive material components except those whose component you get 15 of at the same time that you learn the spell. It's probably not necessary but you may even get a couple spellbooks and spell component pouches, perhaps with safeguards like a secret chest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) that you hide away or ingest.

[Xelbiuj]

Guys ffs, stop trying to break the DM's campaign, coming up with BS methods of getting around the DM's limitations makes you an asshat.

The limit's are OOC, if you want to get round them, then handle it OOC.

I don't mean, just play a wizard with commoner power, I mean, things like spell mastery and the like, abide by the limits, don't use BS trickery to get around them.

Imagine:
DM: "Ok guys, so you wake up stranded on a beach with nothing but the rags on your back and iron on your wrists."
Wizard: "I call my familiar and command him to retrieve my book and gear" [Or ya know, insert whatever BS work around here.]
DM: "Wizard, you serious?"
Wizard: "Yes! HAHA DM YOU SUCK, I AM SO CLEVAR, LOOK AT HOW CLEVAR I AM! HARHARHAR"
DM: "...A boulder falls off a nearby cliff and crushes the wizard."


This, honestly. Stop metagaming because that's exactly what you're doing but worse. He shouldn't have told you how the campaign was starting, would have solved the whole issue.

Fighter ain't going to be much use with an improvised club so the "he's basically a commoner!" excuse ain't mean anything. Maybe they'll stumble upon some pirate treasure or who knows. Maybe using spells to get through every scenario isn't the best way to do this.

"I'm Ironman, not the suit." ~Stark
TC'S The Wizard, not his spells.

[WeaselGuy]

"I'm Ironman, not the suit." ~Stark
TC'S The Wizard, not his spells.

Ok, sure, I see where you're going with that, the whole identity crisis situation. But, Iron Man without his suit on is just a genius engineer with a heart condition. The wizard without his spells is subject to lethal interaction with small mammals.

edit: ok, so, maybe that's not really fair, considering they are starting at level 10. So, assuming a 14 Con, 10x2.5 + 10x2 = 45 HP, with, maybe, an AC of 12. That's definitely within the range of claw-claw-bite lethality...

[Xelbiuj]

Well, he should avoid getting pounced by any jungle cats.
Good threat for this type of situation. Better than facing meant for your actual level which I doubt is going to happen any time soon.

Let the other people handle the combat and instead make yourself useful with skill/knowledge checks.
Perhaps there will be a mystery and combat wont be the main focus, at least until you're back on your feet.


Here's the deal guys, suppose to want to DM a situation like this, "ahhh the ship wreck adventure, a classic!"
You options are . . .
If you already DM a party, you can devastate their WBL, piss them all off, risk the entire thing blowing up because of contingencies (unless you've already countered them)
or start like TC's DM and have people roll new guys and hope they actually want to play the campaign, instead of wanting to break the campaign.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe using spells to get through every scenario isn't the best way to do this.
Do you not understand what a wizard is?

[WeaselGuy]

Well, he should avoid getting pounced by any jungle cats.
Good threat for this type of situation. Better than facing meant for your actual level which I doubt is going to happen any time soon.

Let the other people handle the combat and instead make yourself useful with skill/knowledge checks.
Perhaps there will be a mystery and combat wont be the main focus, at least until you're back on your feet.


Here's the deal guys, suppose to want to DM a situation like this, "ahhh the ship wreck adventure, a classic!"
You options are . . .
If you already DM a party, you can devastate their WBL, piss them all off, risk the entire thing blowing up because of contingencies (unless you've already countered them)
or start like TC's DM and have people roll new guys and hope they actually want to play the campaign, instead of wanting to break the campaign.

I'd say that I'm not trying to argue with you, for the sake of keeping the discussion friendly, but I'll be honest, I'm playing Devil's Advocate over here. I have nothing better to do here in Kuwait.

Honestly? I'd love to play a campaign like this. I think it would be ridiculously fun, with ton's of RP potential. I also don't play Wizards (or other T1, or even T2 characters) very often. I'm the guy that takes a squarely T4 or T3 class and tries to optimize them. So, I'd probably be a Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate or a Bard/Stormsinger or a Ranger/Leviathan Hunter in this type of campaign. My best choice, if I knew the limitations and starting parameters before character creation, would be Sorcerer or Favored Soul. Leagues (heh, pun) ahead of most people here except for (shudder) a Monk, or, better op-fu, an Unarmed Swordsage.

The thing is, the TC (assuming that means Thread Creator? I normally use OP, Original Poster, but whatever) wanted to know options for a level 10 Wizard with no spell book starting out. As has been expounded upon many a time earlier, the chances of a Wizard not having a backup Boccob's Blessed Book, hidden back in his Arcane Sanctum (or other some-such hidey-hole) are rather slim. Since it was stated he couldn't just Teleport out and grab it, then Teleport back, you have varying degrees of optimization, cheese-filled goodness, and shenaniganary (shenaniganery? w/e, you get the idea).

[aleucard]

Make sure that the DM is fully aware that, until you get a proper spell book or are allowed to use one of the methods for turning yourself into a spellbook (preferably one that'll survive the trip), the rest of the party has an indefinite Escort Quest of making sure this guy survives the intervening time. An interesting campaign start's all well and good, but if it makes the prep work of your players entirely useless, you have nobody but yourself to blame if it goes bad.

[Curmudgeon]

Make sure that the DM is fully aware that, until you get a proper spell book or are allowed to use one of the methods for turning yourself into a spellbook (preferably one that'll survive the trip), the rest of the party has an indefinite Escort Quest ...
The DM already knows this, and provided advice:
He told me unless I could find a way to learn spells along the journey, I should pick a different class.

[Lanson]

To put the argument that we are "campaign breakers" OP wanted to play a wizard, and asked suggestions if how to avoid being a worthless sack and incompetent party member into having half a chance. We aren't suggesting he play a beholder mage/ ur priest theurge that knows all the spells forever and will blow open ANY campaign world, we suggested methods to have at least a small modicum of spells. Please stop the accusations, the dm stated that gaining spells by means other than leveling is slim, so it's not like he's going to hand out spellsto make up for the loss.

Reiterate: if you want wizard, shadow craft mage is your go-to, heighten your spell mastery silent image and duplicate a boatload of spells on the cheap.

[magicalmagicman]

Thank you everyone for your advices.

I do not bear any ill will towards my DM. He wants this type of campaign, and I don't need to play wizard. I was just curious how a wizard would survive in such a scenario. It'd be wrong for me to not let my DM do what he wants because I want to be a powerful wizard, after all, there are other games.

Locate Object spell seems like a very great way to get expensive material components. I just need to work with my DM to see how long gathering said components will take. He might make a request for a profession skill investment. So if the profession is: gather magical components, he might let me gather necessary magical supplies totaling half my profession skill in gp per week. Combined with craft alchemy, should provide me with all the inks I need for a spellbook or tattoo spellbook.

If he allows what sorcererlover said, then I think I'll be able to create a filled out spellbook with 0gp. What do you people think? Would you say the stuff about spending 1 day + some gold to re-scribe spells you gained on level up would hold up in the RAW court?

[Renen]

Here's a thought:
You are a lvl 10 wizard with hoard gullet spell and Extend spell metamagic.
Your "book" is either shrunk or is some form that allows you to eat it (long scroll)

Once every 20 hours whenever you are alone, you spit out your book, prepare hoard gullet (and maybe a shrink item), cast them, then swallow the book again. Unless you are watched 24/7 (ask this 1st, to make DM tell you that you arent, or that you sit in some small cell that no one ever looks into) you can do this.

[Sith_Happens]

Why is the DM starting at level 10 with this kind of scenario? :smallconfused:

This. "You've been captured, stripped of your belongings, and sent to a penal colony" works perfectly fine as the premise of a campaign starting at 1st level, even with a Wizard in the party. 10th level parties, on the other hand, don't get captured, stripped of their belongings, and sent to a penal colony in the first place. That's just not how mid-level play operates.


I don't mean, just play a wizard with commoner power, I mean, things like spell mastery and the like, abide by the limits, don't use BS trickery to get around them.

Having a backup spellbook and a means of retrieving it while naked in the middle of nowhere isn't "BS trickery," it's standard operating procedure for every Wizard not specifically told by the DM that they can expect to not have their books messed with.


I was just curious how a wizard would survive in such a scenario.

"By having planned for the possibility," e.g. having a backup spellbook hidden someplace safe that a summoned* teleporter can get to, is both the simplest and most verisimilitude-preserving answer. If your DM objects, just remind him that having a way to quickly get your original book back is effectively just the equivalent of a Sorcerer not having had his mind inexplicably wiped of all spells with no apparent way to relearn them.

* Do not count on starting the game with an Improved Familiar that can do the job, any remotely intelligent captors will have long since killed it.

EDIT: The Hoard Gullet idea is good too, but easier to shoot down for in-game reasons.

[Renen]

Well, for hoard gullet you just have to establish that the character has just enough time every so often to refresh the spells. Heck, you can fill ALL your slots with hoard gullet, and only have to spend like an hour a week to re-fill em.

Or just play MY favorite class: Sha'Ir. You are basically a wizard, that has his familiar fetch his spells, thus needing no spellbook. You also get access to a few domain spells of a cleric, and learn spells by seeing them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They may have taken my stuff, but they cannot take the spells I've already memorized that have never been replaced or cast. So with the spell Teleport already in memory, I go get my backup copy.

Seriously, Wizard is *THE* class that is nearly impossible to keep them from getting their stuff back. They just have too many damn ways to do it.

A better way for the GM to handle this situation: This is going to be an Exile type campaign. Wizards are banned because there is no real way to keep you from breaking the scenario without employing Rule Zero and effectively nerfing the class too punitively.

Rainbow Warsnake actually fits within the guidelines as listed... all sources are in the Complete series.

[RoboEmperor]

Seriously, Wizard is *THE* class that is nearly impossible to keep them from getting their stuff back. They just have too many damn ways to do it.

You got it all wrong dude. It's nearly impossible to keep an OPTIMIZED wizard from getting their stuff back.

It's perfectly plausible this wizard was dumb, didn't have time, lazy, arrogant, etc.

I know when I played my first wizard, or first 10 wizards, I had 0 backups. :P

Some campaigns though, all the way to level 20, we get very little down time. At most a week between adventures. You need 100 days to duplicate a spell book.

[Sith_Happens]

It's perfectly plausible this wizard was dumb, didn't have time, lazy, arrogant, etc.

Those wizards generally fall prey to the dreaded d4 hit die long before reaching 10th level, though.:smalltongue:

[Renen]

You need 100 days to duplicate the book if you got no imagination. There are numerous ways to do it much much faster, or at the same speed but WHILE you are doing other stuff.

[RoboEmperor]

You need 100 days to duplicate the book if you got no imagination. There are numerous ways to do it much much faster, or at the same speed but WHILE you are doing other stuff.

Do elaborate :)

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you can speed up the whole spellbook issue by doing some of the following.

A - Reduce your sleeping requirement. Be a warforged or elf. You can scribe while your party sleeps. So long as you know the spell, no need to make a skill check so it counts as restful activity for prepping your spells.

B - Familiar with hands. It can scribe into your spellbook using your skills. Get a monkey.

[Renen]

Well if we go by "up to level 20" you can always wish to have a duplicate book.
At lower level quill of scribing could be used to copy book while you do other stuff.
The dedicated wright can probably do the same.

I am sure there are atleast a few other ways to duplicate the spellbook. If you are allowed PF material, i think there's a mirror that makes evil twins of you with all your equipment...

[Reshy]

I see, so there is no way you can get spells in short of buying stuff from a scroll merchant. That's a little disappointing but I guess I'll go sorcerer then. Just wanted to know if wizards can get spells without scrolls other than leveling up.

A wizard automatically learns 2 spells each level from personal study, furthermore they start with a number of 1st level spells equal to their intelligence modifier plus 3.

[animewatcha]

Can you find out if you can have permanent things done to you prior to Bare Nakey Island.. Stuff like permanancy resistance or Dark Chaos Shuffle ( Starting as an elf, but shuffling the feats out for things like Improv. toughness so as to not get an immediate no. )

Reserve feats may have became a lot more valuable atleast for the beginning..

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl

If that doesn't immediately list the reserve feats, go into 'feat finder' and use the Reserve tag for searching.

Important.. Complete mage page 37. A wizard can take a reserve feat in place of 5th level, 10th, etc. in of the normal bonus feat for said levels.

[magicalmagicman]

Starting conditions are quite clear. You start with nothing, no permanency, nothing. Fighters have to grab a stick and use it as an improvised weapon until they have enough time to craft one.

He might allow me to have prepared spells, so that could be my starting spellbook, or he could say I used all of my spells before capture. etc. But either way, having prepared spells does not let me scribe anything immediately because even token spell books require a gp cost to scribe, for some unknown reason. It seems as though the creators of d&d intentionally wanted wizards to be interdependent rather than independent.

I have no interest in starting with more than nothing. I posted this thread to see if there's anything I can do after I have nothing.

It seems wizards are very strong when prepared, and almost impossible to catch them offguard, but if they are caught offguard, they are worthless.

I think I have my answer. Thanks everyone.

[animewatcha]

You said starting with no equipment. I can understand not having 'permanency x' at the start. However, there wasn't really much mention of things that are 'permanently available at start of gameplay' like the 3k gp cost feat from the prison wondrous location or switching out an elf's racial bonus feats. If you are start with prepared spells, hello reserve feats.

[Troacctid]

You can't do the Dark Chaos Shuffle in Core + Completes.

[Renen]

Starting conditions are quite clear. You start with nothing, no permanency, nothing. Fighters have to grab a stick and use it as an improvised weapon until they have enough time to craft one.

He might allow me to have prepared spells, so that could be my starting spellbook, or he could say I used all of my spells before capture. etc. But either way, having prepared spells does not let me scribe anything immediately because even token spell books require a gp cost to scribe, for some unknown reason. It seems as though the creators of d&d intentionally wanted wizards to be interdependent rather than independent.

I have no interest in starting with more than nothing. I posted this thread to see if there's anything I can do after I have nothing.

It seems wizards are very strong when prepared, and almost impossible to catch them offguard, but if they are caught offguard, they are worthless.

I think I have my answer. Thanks everyone.

Just be Sha'Ir. Its better than wizard.
You learn spells for free.
You can leave alot of spell slots open because it takes 1d4+spell level rounds to get a spell you learn by leveling up or 1d4+spell level minutes if its a spell you learned by seeing it.
So you dont have to pre-prepare spells like rope trick.
You also dont have a spellbook to lose.
You can learn all wizard spells+ following domains' spells: Earth, fire, water, air, law, chaos, knowledge, sun.

Its like wizard 2.0

Edit: its core and completes? Well you are missing out...

[animewatcha]

You can't do the Dark Chaos Shuffle in Core + Completes.

Retraining then..fluffed as something else??

Also on the Sha'ir thing. The spell thing is more complicated than that...

[Renen]

Retraining then..fluffed as something else??

Also on the Sha'ir thing. The spell thing is more complicated than that...

Well, if a Sha'Ir has seen the spell and knows what on earth he saw (Spellcraft check) then he drops it into his "Spells I seen" category.

[Sith_Happens]

I have no interest in starting with more than nothing. I posted this thread to see if there's anything I can do after I have nothing.

What about starting with nothing and very quickly getting something? You know, like using a summon to retrieve a backup spellbook technically is.

[animewatcha]

@sith: Stuff like that has been covered a few different ways over the course of the thread ( I missed the sources available part myself ).

@Renin: Still gets more complicated than that.

[Renen]

@Renin: Still gets more complicated than that.

Then please... explain. Cuz either I am reading this Sha'Ir class description wrong, or you are just being picky because I am not quoting word for word.

Though if you insist...


A sha'ir's familiar can retrieve any spell on the sorcerer/ wizard spell list, plus any spell from the Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun, and Water domain spell lists.


To do this, the sha'ir must summon his gen and tell it the name of the spell he seeks. The gen immediately plane shifts to seek the spell in the elemental planes.


Arcane Spell Known: To retrieve an arcane spell that the sha'ir can normally cast (that is, one within his Spells Known repertoire), the gen must search for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + the spell level.
Arcane Spell Unknown: The sha'ir can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard list he does not know but has seen the effects of and identified with a successful Spellcraft check. If the sha'ir seeks to cast such an arcane spell, the gen must search for ld6 minutes + 1 minute per spell level. A spell so retrieved does not become learned or known for the purposes of the gen retrieving it again.
Divine Spell: Retrieving a divine spell, known or not, takes a gen ld6 hours + 1 hour per spell level. The gen can retrieve only divine spells from the domains indicated above. Once a gen is sent out to fetch a spell, it cannot be recalled; it is gone for the duration of the search. To determine its success, the sha'ir must succeed at a DC 20 Diplomacy check, since the gen is acting as a proxy to the elemental powers on behalf of the sha'ir. Modify the sha'ir's Diplomacy check as follows:

You get some modifiers on the Diplomacy DC based on some things, but boosting diplomacy DC isnt hard, even item-less.
Your spells also last hours/shair level before disappearing, but at lvl 10 you dont care, since 10 hours is about your adventuring day. And the spells that DO disappear can just be retrieved again if needed.

Man... im so sorry I didnt explain ALL the "complicated" mechanics, when I was just giving an overview of the class.

[facelessminion]

Personally, I'm really a fan of the previous idea of using Robinson Crusoe skill checks to make yourself a basic spellbook, then retrieve your proper one later.

But really, I'd say to heck with playing a wizard and just play a psion. Any wizard that didn't have several contingencies in mind for losing his spellbook by tenth level would have died before tenth level.

[RoboEmperor]

Personally, I'm really a fan of the previous idea of using Robinson Crusoe skill checks to make yourself a basic spellbook, then retrieve your proper one later.

I think that's what the DM is aiming for.

But the thing is even writing something on a rock costs gp D:<

Apparently you can't write any magical writing without magical special ink, or carve magical writing, or anything.

[Coidzor]

Here's the deal guys, suppose to want to DM a situation like this, "ahhh the ship wreck adventure, a classic!"
You options are . . .
If you already DM a party, you can devastate their WBL, piss them all off, risk the entire thing blowing up because of contingencies (unless you've already countered them)
or start like TC's DM and have people roll new guys and hope they actually want to play the campaign, instead of wanting to break the campaign.

I'd start them at a lower level than 10 or accept that the wizard or cleric or druid will have ways of obviating many or all of the challenges of being shipwrecked or shanghaied unless I develop counters to them or specifically talk to them about what I'm trying to do here.

Or I'd let them have some of their baseline equipment and just have specific counters to the main ways of leaving until they dealt with the maguffin that was keeping them on the island of doom.

I mean, with this setup, I'd be worried that the DM would be liable to kill any familiars offscreen/during narration so I was stuck being level 9 from the XP loss.


I think that's what the DM is aiming for.

But the thing is even writing something on a rock costs gp D:<

Apparently you can't write any magical writing without magical special ink, or carve magical writing, or anything.

Yeah, it's a neat idea, but there's very little to go on as far as the magic ink necessary and what all you'd have to do to make them yourself, so it's entirely DM-dependent. Certainly it's worth discussing with the DM ASAP though.

[magicalmagicman]

I decided to grab 3 spell masteries for a total of 4+5+5=14 spells.

Thanks everyone!

[atemu1234]

Planar ally a bearded devil. Ask from it a spell book with the spells you want. He will then petition it to his pit fiend lord, who will gladly use wish to make one for you.

The catch for this method is you become lawful evil and arguably un-resurrectable.

Alternatively, planar ally a glabrezu. Make it use its wish to make you a spell book with the spells you want, and then follow through on your bargain and commit some extremely atrocious evil act. Then go on a redemption thing.

I'm fairly certain DM weirdness qualifies as a free pass under the pact primeval :smallbiggrin:.

[ericgrau]

I decided to grab 3 spell masteries for a total of 4+5+5=14 spells.

Thanks everyone!
Excuse me if I didn't read the thread thoroughly enough, but has your DM said how long you'll be without a spellbook? If it's brief then I might get 2 spell masteries. You'll still be ahead of the stick swingers since you can prepare the same spell multiple times. If you'll be without a spellbook for a while or you're not sure then nevermind, carry on.

[magicalmagicman]

If you'll be without a spellbook for a while or you're not sure then nevermind, carry on.

This. Most likely. My freebie spells either are going to be either tattoos or tokens unless we kill a spellcaster and I loot their spellbook. But I'm not sure.

In my other thread people seem to say headband of intelligence will increase my spells mastered so the new equation is

(entire WBL on headband of intellect +6, level 6)+(level 9)+(level 10) = 7+8+8=23 spells. I think that's more than enough.

[IZ42]

I'd say that I'm not trying to argue with you, for the sake of keeping the discussion friendly, but I'll be honest, I'm playing Devil's Advocate over here. I have nothing better to do here in Kuwait.

Honestly? I'd love to play a campaign like this. I think it would be ridiculously fun, with ton's of RP potential. I also don't play Wizards (or other T1, or even T2 characters) very often. I'm the guy that takes a squarely T4 or T3 class and tries to optimize them. So, I'd probably be a Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate or a Bard/Stormsinger or a Ranger/Leviathan Hunter in this type of campaign. My best choice, if I knew the limitations and starting parameters before character creation, would be Sorcerer or Favored Soul. Leagues (heh, pun) ahead of most people here except for (shudder) a Monk, or, better op-fu, an Unarmed Swordsage.

The thing is, the TC (assuming that means Thread Creator? I normally use OP, Original Poster, but whatever) wanted to know options for a level 10 Wizard with no spell book starting out. As has been expounded upon many a time earlier, the chances of a Wizard not having a backup Boccob's Blessed Book, hidden back in his Arcane Sanctum (or other some-such hidey-hole) are rather slim. Since it was stated he couldn't just Teleport out and grab it, then Teleport back, you have varying degrees of optimization, cheese-filled goodness, and shenaniganary (shenaniganery? w/e, you get the idea).


Just wanted to insert this sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1065454) here. RHoD campaign, and ridiculously effective, even when compared to the Oracle, Bard, and Paladin(Holy Gun). The only reason he's an elf is because reincarnate was a thing and I did stupid things. So, a VoP monk, IF DONE RIGHT, can do just fine in this campaign situation, probably better than the RHoD. Note, the GM let me gain a template as a reward, as long as it was CR+1 or weak CR+2. A monk would be excellent for this campaign in my opinion. Sorry for late posting though.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm still in the "If you have no way of retrieving a backup book then I literally cannot believe you're a Wizard 10 in the first place" camp, but whatever floats your boat.

[Randomguy]

I decided to grab 3 spell masteries for a total of 4+5+5=14 spells.

Thanks everyone!

Consider taking a few metamagic feats and reserve feats for more versatility, too.

[aleucard]

Wasn't there a feat that lets you spontaneously cast Mastered spells? That could be useful.

[Troacctid]

Wasn't there a feat that lets you spontaneously cast Mastered spells? That could be useful.

Yes, but it's not in an allowed book.

[Milodiah]

A DM I potentially want to play with said we're starting at 10th level with no equipment whatsoever, including your spellbook.

He will not let me spell mastery teleport and let me go fetch a backup, as it will ruin the initial setting.

He said no tattoo spellbooks at the start, but I can make one if I want, along with all the other variant spellbooks.

Is there someway a cleric in my party can help me get some spells? He said we will be stranded and away from civilization for the foreseeable future.

Is there a rule saying you can learn a spell under a creature with the spell-like ability? Like a planar allied tutor.


So. The DM is arguing that you own no objects anywhere in the planes of existence? Did a very thorough omniscient god scour reality with a fine-toothed comb destroying everything that even kinda looks like your spellbook?

Because if I were a wizard, my spellbooks would be everywhere. I'd be the lovechild of Jason Bourne and Gandalf, stashing copies of my spellbook in cities/villages/pocket dimensions I'd never even been to. If all it takes to make me useless is separating me from this one object, that one object must. Not. Be. Away. From. Me. I'd probably get to the point where I sliced open my leg, tattooed it inside my own skin, then magicked it back together.

[torrasque666]

So. The DM is arguing that you own no objects anywhere in the planes of existence? Did a very thorough omniscient god scour reality with a fine-toothed comb destroying everything that even kinda looks like your spellbook?

Because if I were a wizard, my spellbooks would be everywhere. I'd be the lovechild of Jason Bourne and Gandalf, stashing copies of my spellbook in cities/villages/pocket dimensions I'd never even been to. If all it takes to make me useless is separating me from this one object, that one object must. Not. Be. Away. From. Me. I'd probably get to the point where I sliced open my leg, tattooed it inside my own skin, then magicked it back together.

And then the Wish of "I wish Milodiah had no spellbook or copies of said spellbook." comes from the BBEG.

[Extra Anchovies]

And then the Wish of "I wish Milodiah had no spellbook or copies of said spellbook." comes from the BBEG.

But since that's not a safe Wish, it'd probably just turn Milodiah into an Eidetic Wizard :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

But since that's not a safe Wish, it'd probably just turn Milodiah into an Eidetic Wizard :smalltongue:
Every wish an NPC makes is a safe wish.

Maybe this is why wizards have apprentices? Scribe a bunch of books, tell them to master them and use them, and then show up fifty years later in the middle of the night all "yo apprentice, remember that book I gave you, well I hope you didn't freakin' lose it because I need it back."

[atemu1234]

Every wish an NPC makes is a safe wish.

Maybe this is why wizards have apprentices? Scribe a bunch of books, tell them to master them and use them, and then show up fifty years later in the middle of the night all "yo apprentice, remember that book I gave you, well I hope you didn't freakin' lose it because I need it back."

"By the way, do you mind if I raid the fridge icebox continuous magic item of Ray of Frost?

[RoboEmperor]

So. The DM is arguing that you own no objects anywhere in the planes of existence? Did a very thorough omniscient god scour reality with a fine-toothed comb destroying everything that even kinda looks like your spellbook?

Because if I were a wizard, my spellbooks would be everywhere. I'd be the lovechild of Jason Bourne and Gandalf, stashing copies of my spellbook in cities/villages/pocket dimensions I'd never even been to. If all it takes to make me useless is separating me from this one object, that one object must. Not. Be. Away. From. Me. I'd probably get to the point where I sliced open my leg, tattooed it inside my own skin, then magicked it back together.

I rather doubt that.

a. Most people don't bother with backup spell books like you said because DMs rarely screw you with that
b. Backup spell books cost money, so just like people not getting spell mastery, people don't pour money onto backup spell books. Maybe 1 at most
c. You don't have the time to scribe them all yourself, unless you actually invest in a monkey familiar (as I've been told, still think it's iffy)

[atemu1234]

I rather doubt that.

a. Most people don't bother with backup spell books like you said because DMs rarely screw you with that
b. Backup spell books cost money, so just like people not getting spell mastery, people don't pour money onto backup spell books. Maybe 1 at most
c. You don't have the time to scribe them all yourself, unless you actually invest in a monkey familiar (as I've been told, still think it's iffy)

A) DMs do it all the time, or not at all. There is no middle ground, in my personal XP.
B)Apprentices come in handy here.
C)What else are you doing?

[WeaselGuy]

Just wanted to insert this sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1065454) here. RHoD campaign, and ridiculously effective, even when compared to the Oracle, Bard, and Paladin(Holy Gun). The only reason he's an elf is because reincarnate was a thing and I did stupid things. So, a VoP monk, IF DONE RIGHT, can do just fine in this campaign situation, probably better than the RHoD. Note, the GM let me gain a template as a reward, as long as it was CR+1 or weak CR+2. A monk would be excellent for this campaign in my opinion. Sorry for late posting though.

Hey, I'm not saying monks can't be good. I played one all the way to 30 in my first campaign. One of our more powerful players was a Knockdown Monk that still brings laughs and cringes from around the table. I recently went back and remastered Zinthos (my LN Tiefling Tattooed Monk) and he turned out to be quite the powerhouse in a level 30 brawl my buddies and I did one night (we ruled no epic spells, cause spellcasters cheat).

The point I was trying to make though, was that in a Robinson Crusoe type of starting point, basically everyone EXCEPT for a Monk, Unarmed Swordsage, Favored Soul or Sorcerer gets dropped into the deep end of the pool with no floaties.

[Milodiah]

But since that's not a safe Wish, it'd probably just turn Milodiah into an Eidetic Wizard :smalltongue:

Somehow this reminds me of a GURPS campaign my friend played in. Apparently one of the more common results of a critical failure was "the exact opposite happens"...

"John, cast Detect Magic on that book for me please."

"...I...I crit-failed."

"THE BOOK DETECTS YOU!"

"OH ****!"


Yep, they ended up with a sentient spellbook because of a botched Detect Magic.


I rather doubt that.

a. Most people don't bother with backup spell books like you said because DMs rarely screw you with that
b. Backup spell books cost money, so just like people not getting spell mastery, people don't pour money onto backup spell books. Maybe 1 at most
c. You don't have the time to scribe them all yourself, unless you actually invest in a monkey familiar (as I've been told, still think it's iffy)


Now that this comes up, I'm doing it from now on, because my wizards are paranoid.

Also. Create a bunch of spellbooks, make them animated objects, and give them one and only one objective: to chase you down and find you. That way you don't even need a spell or action to get them, they seek you out on their own. All the time. Like the Luggage or something.

Sure, it'd be annoying, and you'd probably end up like a magic crazy cat lady surrounded by yapping, running spellbooks. But you could always teleport them away when they find you, so they'd start over. And it's something that'd totally be in character for the eccentric wizard.