Musteval as PC/Familiar?

[WeaselGuy]

I'm at work and AFB right now, but want to work on this when I get back to my room as a thought experiment. Is there any legal way to take a creature designed as a Cohort and play them as a character instead? For those that don't know, the Musteval is a Tiny ferret guy from BoED, with Cohort in it's LA entry...

[Sian]

Musteval doesn't have Cohort in its LA reading (which is a whooping +5)

As for playing something similar, it would be much better to take Nezumi (Oriental Adventures) and use their stats/abilities together with a new load of fluff

[WeaselGuy]

Musteval doesn't have Cohort in its LA reading (which is a whooping +5)

As for playing something similar, it would be much better to take Nezumi (Oriental Adventures) and use their stats/abilities together with a new load of fluff

... this is what I get for posting a thread while AFB... now that you mention it, I remember the +5 now, along with the 2 RHD, which now begs the question, assuming I'm starting at level 7 or higher, what would the Musteval be a good chassis to build a decent player character on?

[Psyren]

... this is what I get for posting a thread while AFB... now that you mention it, I remember the +5 now, along with the 2 RHD, which now begs the question, assuming I'm starting at level 7 or higher, what would the Musteval be a good chassis to build a decent player character on?

That depends on how you define "decent." Unfortunately, for most on these boards, +5 LA and 2RHD are way too much to make anything decent with unless you get a lot of goodies in exchange, and Musteval doesn't. (Focused Movement is kinda nice, but you can do the same thing for no LA just by getting a fly speed + Flyby Attack.) Add to that they are Tiny with 0 reach and you're basically pushed into being a spellcaster, which only makes the ECL7 start worse.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Well, it probably could be a reasonable Swift Hunter...

[WeaselGuy]

Well, it probably could be a reasonable Swift Hunter...

Yeah, I was in the process of typing a response out when I got released from work, and was basically going to mention:

What about Scout? How much would it take to offset ECL7, to make this little guy a decent physical combatant? Bearing in mind that he increases in size after 3HD to Small (Kinda sucks about that part, I really enjoyed the thought of a Tiny Humanoid Ferret scampering around shooting people with pencil-sized arrows for ludicrous amounts of damage...)

[Red Fel]

For what it's worth, if you want a weasel, the Weasel Hengeyokai has a lower LA (or, if you use Dragon Magazine's update, none at all). It's not Tiny unless it's in Animal Form, but it's an option.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Bearing in mind that he increases in size after 3HD to Small (Kinda sucks about that part, I really enjoyed the thought of a Tiny Humanoid Ferret scampering around shooting people with pencil-sized arrows for ludicrous amounts of damage...)

I think that's only if you choose to take additional levels of Outsider. If you advance by character class instead then the size wouldn't change.

From the SRD:

If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe Totemist/Scout, focusing on Manticore Belt?

That LA is nasty though. Is there some way to buy off part of an LA, or is buyoff not an option at all for LA +4 or higher races?

[Psyren]

Maybe Totemist/Scout, focusing on Manticore Belt?

That LA is nasty though. Is there some way to buy off part of an LA, or is buyoff not an option at all for LA +4 or higher races?

You can drop it by one starting at level 15. So... basically, not an option, no :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

You can drop it by one starting at level 15. So... basically, not an option, no :smalltongue:

That's really icky. It's the high-LA races that need the buyoff in the first place! In future games I run, I'm going to houserule that LA can be bought of after levels 6, 12, and 18, or possibly even 5/10/15/20.

[Troacctid]

What about Scout? How much would it take to offset ECL7, to make this little guy a decent physical combatant? Bearing in mind that he increases in size after 3HD to Small (Kinda sucks about that part, I really enjoyed the thought of a Tiny Humanoid Ferret scampering around shooting people with pencil-sized arrows for ludicrous amounts of damage...)

Arrows? I thought you get Magic Missile at will. Or am I remembering wrong?

[MilesTiden]

Magic Missile wouldn't trigger skirmish though. (Also, I have played a musteval before, but only in gestalt, so everything I say would be kinda not applicable @_@_

[WeaselGuy]

Magic Missile wouldn't trigger skirmish though. (Also, I have played a musteval before, but only in gestalt, so everything I say would be kinda not applicable @_@_

I've never played a gestalt campaign before, but I'm growing attached to this little critter, and would be interested to know how you set your character up...

edit: After a quick google search, I did find out (don't know how I missed it) that Musteval can be familiars to NG Casters with CL7. Looking in the BoED, I found the Celestial Mystic PrC, 9/10 spellcasting, requirers 4th level spells, Sacred Vow, Vow of Abstinence, and (I think) Servant of the Heavens (could be wrong on that one, but it's one of those feats). I just left for work, so I'm AFB now, but if anybody can tell me if this is 1) a decent PrC for Wizards, 2) if the Musteval as a Familiar is better than a) Musteval as a character and b) better than any other familiar at that level, and 3) what can I fill the rest of my levels out with? I figured on Wizard 5/something 2/Celestial Mystic 10/something 3.

Thoughts?

[Troacctid]

Yes, a Musteval with a full caster attached is definitely going to be better than a Musteval on its own. They make pretty good familiars--they've got a burrow speed, they're nice and stealthy, and tongues, see invisibility, disguise self, detect magic, and detect evil are all nice things to have at will. Their invisibility is only 1/day, but unlike other familiars that have it, it's not self-only.

I think the coure is better at that level, though. Comparable spell-like abilities, but they can turn into an incorporeal ball of light at will, which is sweet. And lantern archons are tough competition too, with their at-will greater teleport making them amazing messengers, couriers, and scouts.

Celestial Mystic is not the worst, but you have to take three bad feats to get in, and you lose a caster level, so it's somewhat underwhelming compared to what you give up.

[WeaselGuy]

Yes, a Musteval with a full caster attached is definitely going to be better than a Musteval on its own. They make pretty good familiars--they've got a burrow speed, they're nice and stealthy, and tongues, see invisibility, disguise self, detect magic, and detect evil are all nice things to have at will. Their invisibility is only 1/day, but unlike other familiars that have it, it's not self-only.

I think the coure is better at that level, though. Comparable spell-like abilities, but they can turn into an incorporeal ball of light at will, which is sweet. And lantern archons are tough competition too, with their at-will greater teleport making them amazing messengers, couriers, and scouts.

Celestial Mystic is not the worst, but you have to take three bad feats to get in, and you lose a caster level, so it's somewhat underwhelming compared to what you give up.

Thanks for the input! Knowing that the Coure and the Archon are better, I can accept that, but I really love ferrets/weasels, so, yeah... Gonna take the Musteval :smallbiggrin:

Now, as for the Celestial Mystic... I want some flavor of Exalted for my character, and the Mystic gives some pretty good features, notably immunity to death effects. If I were to pick something else, what would you recommend? I don't think I've ever actually made a Wizard before, I tend to stick to Rangers and Rogues and the like, only recently migrating to Paladin and now off the deep end into a DMM:P Cleric.

[Troacctid]

Sentinel of Bharrai might be the most powerful prestige class in the book, and it works great on Wizards. 10/10 casting, trivially easy to qualify for, and the class features kick ass. It's all upside and well worth the feat tax to get in. That's what I'd go with.

(Actually, it's awesome on just about any caster and even some non-casters, but it's particularly good for Wizards, since they qualify so easily and the chassis is a strict upgrade.)

[Extra Anchovies]

Sentinel of Bharrai might be the most powerful prestige class in the book, and it works great on Wizards. 10/10 casting, trivially easy to qualify for, and the class features kick ass. It's all upside and well worth the feat tax to get in. That's what I'd go with.

(Actually, it's awesome on just about any caster and even some non-casters, but it's particularly good for Wizards, since they qualify so easily and the chassis is a strict upgrade.)

Also, you get to turn into a talking bear, with no uses/day or duration limit. If that isn't cool, I don't know what is. (Also since you can talk you can still cast)

[WeaselGuy]

Ok, so yeah, Sentinal of Bharrai is pretty much multiple flavors of awesome, and I'll definitely be taking that PrC. Should I just do Wizard for the remaining 5 levels, or is there something else that will dovetail nicely with this character?

[Belkarseviltwin]

Also, you get to turn into a talking bear, with no uses/day or duration limit. If that isn't cool, I don't know what is. (Also since you can talk you can still cast)

Are bear paws dextrous enough to do somatic components? I suppose there's always Still Spell...

[Extra Anchovies]

Are bear paws dextrous enough to do somatic components? I suppose there's always Still Spell...

Surrogate Spellcasting (planar handbook, maybe? or savage species) does just slightly less (you still need to move), but doesn't put you back a spell level.

[Urpriest]

Ok, so yeah, Sentinal of Bharrai is pretty much multiple flavors of awesome, and I'll definitely be taking that PrC. Should I just do Wizard for the remaining 5 levels, or is there something else that will dovetail nicely with this character?

Divine Oracle might be nice. It's an arcane class with some reasonably nice divine flavor and handy abilities.

[Troacctid]

Are bear paws dextrous enough to do somatic components? I suppose there's always Still Spell...

Look at that illustration. That Sentinel of Bharrai is clearly capable of fine manipulation.

It's different for wild shape because that ability is based on alternate form, which specifies humanlike hands specifically. But the bear shape ability is based in polymorph, which is based on alter self, which only requires limbs capable of fine manipulation. And the bear in the image has opposable thumbs and everything. I would totally allow it.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Also, you get to say "I cast this spell with my bear hands!"

[Coidzor]

Divine Oracle might be nice. It's an arcane class with some reasonably nice divine flavor and handy abilities.

Divine Oracle? The one that gives the Oracle Domain and what amounts of Evasion, but you can wear heavy armor and it doesn't count as Evasion for prereqs? I believe that's a divine-flavored PrC that both divine and arcane casters can enter. I know I've had Clerics dip Divine Oracle in the past.