Is Dragonborn a bit of a runt?

[flyenemu]

Friends,

First I would like to wish all a happy holiday season. May the stressors of the end of the year dwindle down to allow you to enjoy what is there. My true reason for this post is stated in the title; is the dragonborn underpowered? As I was working on building a LOZ mod for 5th edition, I came to the opinion that the dragonborn are vastly underpowered compared to their PC brothers and sisters. My group has built characters for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign that I will be running next month, and so I too made a character to test my theory... the results were sadly alarming.

My goal was to make a dragonborn controller, and with a bonus to charisma, I decided on sorcerer. It only made sense to go with the 'draconic bloodline', and the picture of a dragonborn on the adjacent page gave me some confidence that I was not too off from what the +1 to Cha was thought to be used for by the authors. My initial discovery was that I already knew draconic, and my level 6 boon of resistance to electric damage (blue-dragon/draconian) was also a bust. It seemed as if the dragonborn did not have a niche as a sorcerer... which was confusing. I then looked at other builds, and found that it only fit well into the role of paladin. All other races surpassed my sad scaly friend. I then abandoned this method of deducing the problem with draconian, and looked strictly at it compared to the other races (primarily an elf), and found the following:

* Dragonborn: Breath weapon per rest cycle, Resistance to energy type, +2str +1cha

* A cantrip (unlimited use, and possible to gain by 2 other races) far surpasses the breath weapon with regards to usefulness and damage output, 4 other races gain some type of resistance, and the +2,+1 to ability scores is the standard configuration across the board.

For kicks, I picked up my Monster Manual to see how a half-dragon stands up to this... and boy was I a little upset. The half-dragon template (able to be added to nearly any creature) has blindsence, darkvision, a recharge on their overpowered breath attack, and the same resistance that the dragonborns get... in fact chimera, true dragons, faerie dragons, gorgons, hellhounds, mephits... every single creature I found could recharge their breath attack, and every dragon (dragon sub-type) had enhanced senses. If dragonborn were created from dragons... why are they so different from them, and all things that are similar to them?

My group and I then agreed (after the above) to grant the dragonborn similar boons as the half-dragon (breath attack recharges at top of your turn 33.3% of the time [but did not change the scaling damage output], blindsight 10', and darkvision 60'). A member of my group also pointed out that they should be proficient with both intimidation and history based on how they were portrayed in 4th edition to be able to trace their bloodline back to Bahamut/Tiamat (I wasn’t too into 4th edition so I took his word). This was also supported due to the observation that most all other PC races have some type of innate proficiency(s).

What are your thoughts? Are dragonborn truly underpowered or do they have a niche that I missed? Are the homebrew rules listed above balanced, or do they overpower a PC race? Have you and your group run into this problem? Is there a thread where this discussion is already ongoing, and I simply did not find it? Thank you for reading and I look forward to your input.

[MunkeeGamer]

Friends,

First I would like to wish all a happy holiday season. May the stressors of the end of the year dwindle down to allow you to enjoy what is there. My true reason for this post is stated in the title; is the dragonborn underpowered? As I was working on building a LOZ mod for 5th edition, I came to the opinion that the dragonborn are vastly underpowered compared to their PC brothers and sisters. My group has built characters for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign that I will be running next month, and so I too made a character to test my theory... the results were sadly alarming.

My goal was to make a dragonborn controller, and with a bonus to charisma, I decided on sorcerer. It only made sense to go with the 'draconic bloodline', and the picture of a dragonborn on the adjacent page gave me some confidence that I was not too off from what the +1 to Cha was thought to be used for by the authors. My initial discovery was that I already knew draconic, and my level 6 boon of resistance to electric damage (blue-dragon/draconian) was also a bust. It seemed as if the dragonborn did not have a niche as a sorcerer... which was confusing. I then looked at other builds, and found that it only fit well into the role of paladin. All other races surpassed my sad scaly friend. I then abandoned this method of deducing the problem with draconian, and looked strictly at it compared to the other races (primarily an elf), and found the following:

* Dragonborn: Breath weapon per rest cycle, Resistance to energy type, +2str +1cha

* A cantrip (unlimited use, and possible to gain by 2 other races) far surpasses the breath weapon with regards to usefulness and damage output, 4 other races gain some type of resistance, and the +2,+1 to ability scores is the standard configuration across the board.

For kicks, I picked up my Monster Manual to see how a half-dragon stands up to this... and boy was I a little upset. The half-dragon template (able to be added to nearly any creature) has blindsence, darkvision, a recharge on their overpowered breath attack, and the same resistance that the dragonborns get... in fact chimera, true dragons, faerie dragons, gorgons, hellhounds, mephits... every single creature I found could recharge their breath attack, and every dragon (dragon sub-type) had enhanced senses. If dragonborn were created from dragons... why are they so different from them, and all things that are similar to them?

My group and I then agreed (after the above) to grant the dragonborn similar boons as the half-dragon (breath attack recharges at top of your turn 33.3% of the time [but did not change the scaling damage output], blindsight 10', and darkvision 60'). A member of my group also pointed out that they should be proficient with both intimidation and history based on how they were portrayed in 4th edition to be able to trace their bloodline back to Bahamut/Tiamat (I wasn’t too into 4th edition so I took his word). This was also supported due to the observation that most all other PC races have some type of innate proficiency(s).

What are your thoughts? Are dragonborn truly underpowered or do they have a niche that I missed? Are the homebrew rules listed above balanced, or do they overpower a PC race? Have you and your group run into this problem? Is there a thread where this discussion is already ongoing, and I simply did not find it? Thank you for reading and I look forward to your input.

I'm not strong with balance, especially not with 5e considering its new-ness. But I am a strong homebrewer and generally bend toward the "rule of cool".

That said, there are two general things I would point out. First of all, the group agrees that the changes are fine. At my table, that would almost end the discussion right there. As long as everyone allows the changes and everyone has equal access to the changes, you should be fine.

The second thought I have is that there is never a good reason to play something that you might consider disappointing. If you do find the race more satisfying in its current form that's a good thing. It would be a bad thing if other people feel left out or underpowered with their choice as a result of your modifications. In that case, it's as simple as voluntarily limiting yourself or jumping in and adding something-something for the other players' races too.

I come from a place of mutual, cinematic, simulationist, bad *** storytelling though. Tactical, grid-based minutia has never been a goal of mine. In that situation, every change causes ripples. I would consider your game table style first, then consider the changes from that perspective.

[Socko525]

I started a thread a while back right after the PHB came out basically coming to the same conclusion. I was going to be playing a Paladin, and was drawn to dragonborn (thinking a paladin of Bahamut in HotDQ would be perfect). I then looked at half-elf and from an optimization standpoint I never looked back.

As you've pointed out several other races gain similar traits (for instance tiefling gets fire resistance, a cantrip+two other spells and darkvision on top of what you pointed out with the elf).

Long story short I think dragonborn are underpowered, and from a balance perspective I'd say you're right on to adjust the recharge rate but keep the damage scaling and giving darkvision. I feel like blindsense is a bit much, but maybe that's just me.

We have a dragonborn fighter in our group and he's the only PC without darkvision, which has put him in an awkward spot a lot of the time as the rest of us are getting by without any light source, having to direct him where to go.

Also while the rest of us would be on the lookout for sweet magic items, he just wants the Goggles of Night so he can finally see in the dark.

[flyenemu]

MunkeeGamer,

I too would normally just accept the groups opinion and move on, but the campaign will be broken up so that every other chapter will be DMed by my wife. This makes it so the dragonborn sorcerer that I am now rather fond of is my character... and thus I am no longer without bias. This is also joined by the fact that there might be others with more experience with 5th ed who have better input then my newb group. Thank you for your support, and views ^.^ they are greatly appreciated.


I started a thread a while back right after the PHB came out basically coming to the same conclusion. I was going to be playing a Paladin, and was drawn to dragonborn (thinking a paladin of Bahamut in HotDQ would be perfect). I then looked at half-elf and from an optimization standpoint I never looked back.

As you've pointed out several other races gain similar traits (for instance tiefling gets fire resistance, a cantrip+two other spells and darkvision on top of what you pointed out with the elf).

Long story short I think dragonborn are underpowered, and from a balance perspective I'd say you're right on to adjust the recharge rate but keep the damage scaling and giving darkvision. I feel like blindsense is a bit much, but maybe that's just me.

We have a dragonborn fighter in our group and he's the only PC without darkvision, which has put him in an awkward spot a lot of the time as the rest of us are getting by without any light source, having to direct him where to go.

Also while the rest of us would be on the lookout for sweet magic items, he just wants the Goggles of Night so he can finally see in the dark.

Socko,

Thank you for your perspective. The blindsense was something I truly struggled with, due to my bias in the matter. My only support is his life-span is the second lowest of the starter races, must sleep a full 8 hours (unlike the contending elven races), and... well.. half-dragons get it. I was thinking of playing a half-dragon template on a human, but that breath attack simply is not fair for PCs to have. I am glad to see that I am not the only one crazy in finding this!:smallsmile:

[Dralnu]

I think they're a wee bit underpowered but nothing to worry about. Going with the paladin example, yeah I think Half-Elf brings overall more to the table, but I prefer having the bigger STR bonus, so that's something.

I think the breath weapon should scale better. 2d6 is a fine start, but I'd add an extra dice at each other damage increase (4d6 at 6th, 5d6 at 11th, etc).

Other than that, yeah darkvision could've been nice, maybe some sort of bonus when conversing with scaley folk that share your alignment, or chrome/metallic dragons based on your heritage. A little bit of extra fluff.

Certainly not at a significant disadvantage compared to other races though. I'd still happily pick a dragonborn for a smashy smash paladin, especially at level 1-4 range where that breath weapon is quite useful.

EDIT: Your suggestions seem totally fine by the way. I forgot to mention that! Recharge chance on breath without increasing damage is good, adding two skill proficiencies is good, yup yup. Darkvision, fine. My only gripe is the blindsight. That's a huge boon, albeit situational which is good, but still, I don't think a racial bonus should negate invisibility as an afterthought. Darkvision is more than enough.

[GiantOctopodes]

Friends,

First I would like to wish all a happy holiday season. May the stressors of the end of the year dwindle down to allow you to enjoy what is there. My true reason for this post is stated in the title; is the dragonborn underpowered? As I was working on building a LOZ mod for 5th edition, I came to the opinion that the dragonborn are vastly underpowered compared to their PC brothers and sisters. My group has built characters for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen campaign that I will be running next month, and so I too made a character to test my theory... the results were sadly alarming.

My goal was to make a dragonborn controller, and with a bonus to charisma, I decided on sorcerer. It only made sense to go with the 'draconic bloodline', and the picture of a dragonborn on the adjacent page gave me some confidence that I was not too off from what the +1 to Cha was thought to be used for by the authors. My initial discovery was that I already knew draconic, and my level 6 boon of resistance to electric damage (blue-dragon/draconian) was also a bust. It seemed as if the dragonborn did not have a niche as a sorcerer... which was confusing. I then looked at other builds, and found that it only fit well into the role of paladin. All other races surpassed my sad scaly friend. I then abandoned this method of deducing the problem with draconian, and looked strictly at it compared to the other races (primarily an elf), and found the following:

* Dragonborn: Breath weapon per rest cycle, Resistance to energy type, +2str +1cha

* A cantrip (unlimited use, and possible to gain by 2 other races) far surpasses the breath weapon with regards to usefulness and damage output, 4 other races gain some type of resistance, and the +2,+1 to ability scores is the standard configuration across the board.

For kicks, I picked up my Monster Manual to see how a half-dragon stands up to this... and boy was I a little upset. The half-dragon template (able to be added to nearly any creature) has blindsence, darkvision, a recharge on their overpowered breath attack, and the same resistance that the dragonborns get... in fact chimera, true dragons, faerie dragons, gorgons, hellhounds, mephits... every single creature I found could recharge their breath attack, and every dragon (dragon sub-type) had enhanced senses. If dragonborn were created from dragons... why are they so different from them, and all things that are similar to them?

My group and I then agreed (after the above) to grant the dragonborn similar boons as the half-dragon (breath attack recharges at top of your turn 33.3% of the time [but did not change the scaling damage output], blindsight 10', and darkvision 60'). A member of my group also pointed out that they should be proficient with both intimidation and history based on how they were portrayed in 4th edition to be able to trace their bloodline back to Bahamut/Tiamat (I wasn’t too into 4th edition so I took his word). This was also supported due to the observation that most all other PC races have some type of innate proficiency(s).

What are your thoughts? Are dragonborn truly underpowered or do they have a niche that I missed? Are the homebrew rules listed above balanced, or do they overpower a PC race? Have you and your group run into this problem? Is there a thread where this discussion is already ongoing, and I simply did not find it? Thank you for reading and I look forward to your input.

So, the thing is, the Breath Weapon is the equivalent to a 1st level spell (burning hands) not a cantrip. Giving it a recharge will make it potentially overpowered, as no other class (other than ranger) has at will AOE damage, and certainly not with such nice damage. It is also already once per short rest, vs once per long, so it's essentially like you have a warlock spell slot which scales up to 3rd level, from that ability alone.

Also, the always on resistance to your draconic damage type is nothing to scoff at, especially as a sorcerer, who can then potentially drop AoEs on himself and laugh it off while his enemies fall around him. I will say this, though- the Dragonborn is best suited to a Barbarian. They already get resistance to non-magical weapons, adding in resistance to an elemental damage type makes them extremely durable. It also synergizes well with the +2 Strength. Paladins are also good, as are pact of blade warlocks- in short, anyone who is going to be on the front lines as a natural course of action, for whom the AoE attack has the most use, and for whom the resistance to damage type allows your team to friendly fire you with AoE effects, dealing *much* more damage to your enemies than to you, while you help keep the enemies in place.

Since you're not in an "optimal" use of that race, buffing you up slightly wouldn't necessarily hurt game balance. I will point out, though, that other than Tiefling (which is in fact strictly better) and half elf (whic is not especially more powerful, just more diverse in known skills), you could not have made a better choice. Even for you, Dragonborn ranks 3rd best in terms of options available, so it's not especially *under* powered by any means.

I will also point out that poison damage is the most easily resisted, and the least likely for your party to be slinging around (especially since it will be common for your enemies to have that as well). Fire resistance is far more valuable.

In terms of buffing it up, I would propose the following changes (if any):

- Add Darkvision
- Allow you, at 6th level as a draconic sorcerer, to add a second elemental damage resistance of your choosing, to avoid punishing players for not gaming the system, and reward them for picking the thematically appropriate draconic sorcerer of the same type as they already are.
- Increase the starting damage to 3d6, and increase all listed figures by 1d6 as levels are gained (so it would cap at 6d6 at 16th level)

Adding a recharge mechanic would in my humble opinion be overpowered, but hey, it's your game. Adding skills would be less overpowered, but I certainly wouldn't add two of them, as that would make them directly and meaningfully overshadow the half elf.

[odigity]

I think it should scale like a cantrip:

L1) 2d6
L5) 4d6
L11) 6d6
L17) 8d6

It's the only thing get for being a Dragonborn, and you should be encourage to use it, not feel like it's usually suboptimal.

As someone else pointed out, it's more poweful than a cantrip, but 1x short rest balances that.

You've got a frigging breath weapon. You should *want* to use it ever short rest. The lame damage progression incentivizes non-use, which is sad.

2d6 isn't that hot. It won't even take out orcs. Fine, levels 1-4 you shouldn't be able to that easily, but level 5? Come on.

[flyenemu]

I think they're a wee bit underpowered but nothing to worry about. Going with the paladin example, yeah I think Half-Elf brings overall more to the table, but I prefer having the bigger STR bonus, so that's something.

I think the breath weapon should scale better. 2d6 is a fine start, but I'd add an extra dice at each other damage increase (4d6 at 6th, 5d6 at 11th, etc).

Other than that, yeah darkvision could've been nice, maybe some sort of bonus when conversing with scaley folk that share your alignment, or chrome/metallic dragons based on your heritage. A little bit of extra fluff.

Certainly not at a significant disadvantage compared to other races though. I'd still happily pick a dragonborn for a smashy smash paladin, especially at level 1-4 range where that breath weapon is quite useful.

EDIT: Your suggestions seem totally fine by the way. I forgot to mention that! Recharge chance on breath without increasing damage is good, adding two skill proficiencies is good, yup yup. Darkvision, fine. My only gripe is the blindsight. That's a huge boon, albeit situational which is good, but still, I don't think a racial bonus should negate invisibility as an afterthought. Darkvision is more than enough.


Dralnu,

Thank you for your input. I was thinking of scaling the damage, but if you think about being able to do an average of 1d6 damage (1/2 damage) to up to 6 creatures no matter their AC. If you compare this with the spell damage scaling listed on pg 284 in the DMG, the scaling of the breath weapon is 1/2 the damage of the highest level spell that a caster character of that level can cast. With the recharge ability tacked on, we have a character with near the same average damage output as a wizard, and can do it more often. A race alone should not be able to do that by my opinion.

[flyenemu]

I think it should scale like a cantrip:

L1) 2d6
L5) 4d6
L11) 6d6
L17) 8d6

It's the only thing get for being a Dragonborn, and you should be encourage to use it, not feel like it's usually suboptimal.

As someone else pointed out, it's more poweful than a cantrip, but 1x short rest balances that.

You've got a frigging breath weapon. You should *want* to use it ever short rest. The lame damage progression incentivizes non-use, which is sad.

2d6 isn't that hot. It won't even take out orcs. Fine, levels 1-4 you shouldn't be able to that easily, but level 5? Come on.

Odigity,

Thank you for your input. I must point out that we are talking about an attack that WILL do damage, and can hit up to 6 enemies at once. I do not think there is a single cantrip out there with that power.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

* A cantrip (unlimited use, and possible to gain by 2 other races) far surpasses the breath weapon with regards to usefulness and damage output, 4 other races gain some type of resistance, and the +2,+1 to ability scores is the standard configuration across the board.

Way off base. Cantrips are typically single target. Dragonborn breath weapons are all AOE, and are not subject to effects like silence.

For example, if you compare Fire Bolt to Fire Breath; at level 6 it's 2d10 vs 3d6 per hit, or an average of 11 versus an average of 10.5. Similar, except the breath can easily hit more than one target, drastically improving its relative effectiveness.

Additionally, as a sorcerer you already gain a number of cantrips meaning that the most you would gain from Elf is a small amount of flexibility or a utility cantrip. You would already have a primary damage cantrip.

[Dralnu]

Odigity,

Thank you for your input. I must point out that we are talking about an attack that WILL do damage, and can hit up to 6 enemies at once. I do not think there is a single cantrip out there with that power.

Cantrips can be cast unlimited times. As most posters have said, the breath weapon recharges only after a short rest, so it should be more powerful than a cantrip. If you want to add a superior recharge rate then keep the damage as-is, but that's not what our suggestions were talking about.

[flyenemu]

So, the thing is, the Breath Weapon is the equivalent to a 1st level spell (burning hands) not a cantrip. Giving it a recharge will make it potentially overpowered, as no other class (other than ranger) has at will AOE damage, and certainly not with such nice damage. It is also already once per short rest, vs once per long, so it's essentially like you have a warlock spell slot which scales up to 3rd level, from that ability alone.

Also, the always on resistance to your draconic damage type is nothing to scoff at, especially as a sorcerer, who can then potentially drop AoEs on himself and laugh it off while his enemies fall around him. I will say this, though- the Dragonborn is best suited to a Barbarian. They already get resistance to non-magical weapons, adding in resistance to an elemental damage type makes them extremely durable. It also synergizes well with the +2 Strength. Paladins are also good, as are pact of blade warlocks- in short, anyone who is going to be on the front lines as a natural course of action, for whom the AoE attack has the most use, and for whom the resistance to damage type allows your team to friendly fire you with AoE effects, dealing *much* more damage to your enemies than to you, while you help keep the enemies in place.

Since you're not in an "optimal" use of that race, buffing you up slightly wouldn't necessarily hurt game balance. I will point out, though, that other than Tiefling (which is in fact strictly better) and half elf (whic is not especially more powerful, just more diverse in known skills), you could not have made a better choice. Even for you, Dragonborn ranks 3rd best in terms of options available, so it's not especially *under* powered by any means.

I will also point out that poison damage is the most easily resisted, and the least likely for your party to be slinging around (especially since it will be common for your enemies to have that as well). Fire resistance is far more valuable.

In terms of buffing it up, I would propose the following changes (if any):

- Add Darkvision
- Allow you, at 6th level as a draconic sorcerer, to add a second elemental damage resistance of your choosing, to avoid punishing players for not gaming the system, and reward them for picking the thematically appropriate draconic sorcerer of the same type as they already are.
- Increase the starting damage to 3d6, and increase all listed figures by 1d6 as levels are gained (so it would cap at 6d6 at 16th level)

Adding a recharge mechanic would in my humble opinion be overpowered, but hey, it's your game. Adding skills would be less overpowered, but I certainly wouldn't add two of them, as that would make them directly and meaningfully overshadow the half elf.

GiantOctopodes,

Thank you for your input, I had not looked at the breath weapon as a level one spell. I had associated it with a high-end cantrip with a different save. I then went through and looked at your example of burning hands, and found that the level 1 spells do more damage than the breath weapon. Most characters are not maxing out their CON making the save against it lower than your good level 1 spell.(DMG outlines that the dc save and damage scales with ECL rather than lvl) Adding the extra 1d6 as you recommend does in fact help this out, but the problem lies in the true limitation of the breath attack. My level 1 magic spell can be altered by my sorcerer's metamagic, or enhanced by my wizards favored school. The breath weapon is stronger than a cantrip, yes, but limited because it is unable to be bolstered or altered by the same mechanics that are set up for spells. By giving the dragonborn a 33% or even 16.6% chance to recover per round you are acknowledging the limits of the breath weapon without boosting it to the state of a spell that would still lack all other bonuses associated with spells.

Bringing up the idea behind the poison resistance was something I had not thought of. I had always equated the elf immunity to sleep paired with resistance to charm as the contender or even superior (sleep is rather powerful at low levels due to the lack of a save). I would still point out that a high-elf still retains greater boons then a dragonborn, and you can nearly pair ability bonuses up one for one.

[odigity]

Odigity,

Thank you for your input. I must point out that we are talking about an attack that WILL do damage, and can hit up to 6 enemies at once. I do not think there is a single cantrip out there with that power.

1) will do damage, but often half-damage because of saves
2) up to 6 enemies is optimal, and rarely achieved; with a cone you'll usually get 2-3, with a line you're not getting more than 1-2 unless in a narrow hallway
3) 2d6 is still just 7hp... just enough to kill a goblin who fails the save. If your breath weapon can't even kill a goblin, what's the point?

I suggest the cantrip scaling schedule because it's well known, follows the game's power progression (cantrips, extra attacks, and spell levels 3/6/9 all happen on that schedule of 5/11/17), and seems like a good fit.

In other words, don't change the base damage (2d6), but boost it at the same levels cantrips get boosted, and by the same multiplication factor (+1 at each step).

[flyenemu]

Cantrips can be cast unlimited times. As most posters have said, the breath weapon recharges only after a short rest, so it should be more powerful than a cantrip. If you want to add a superior recharge rate then keep the damage as-is, but that's not what our suggestions were talking about.

Dralnu,

The standard 33% recharge rate felt a good fit when given the blindsight 10' and darkvision. The breath will do as much/more damage than most cantrips, so too great a recharge makes the race alone out-shine a caster's at-wills.

[GiantOctopodes]

Dralnu,

The standard 33% recharge rate felt a good fit when given the blindsight 10' and darkvision. The breath will do as much/more damage than most cantrips, so too great a recharge makes the race alone out-shine a caster's at-wills.

Darkvision seems only logical, but I will strongly caution against blindsight- it's available only in extremely limited ways to PCs, and only at high levels (Rogue 14 or Ranger 18, Druid Wildshaping or Pact of Chain Warlock using an Invocation). 10' Blindsight is actually outright superior to the Rogue Blindsense, and is effectively the equal of the Ranger level 18 ability. If given Blindsight, the best party, mechanically, would *always* be an all Dragonborn party, since then you just need to drop a fog cloud and now you are advantaged vs your foe and they are disadvantaged vs you, in the vast majority of encounters. Blindsight is more powerful than it might initially appear, and rare for a reason.

[Amnoriath]

Yes it is but this is taking it a little overboard. The closest race by comparison is the Tiefling. It gets a very common resistance while having a non-scaling cantrip and single daily spells as it advances as well as Darkvision. Unlike what you are saying it is like a 1st level spell if not more. Spells only increase in damage if cast in a higher slot so the Breath Weapon becomes better than a base Burning Hands. Dragons are no longer masters of magic in 5e so a cantrip simply doesn't make sense. What does make sense is Darkvision and a 1 minute recharge. I would also consider dropping it to a 1d8 adding your constiution modifier while increasing them at level 5, 10..etc. The 1 minute recharge balances in that you are only doing once an encounter since most creatures with them don't rely on them usually and the modifier to damage helps give it a better base damage as well as scales better.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Cantrips can be cast unlimited times. As most posters have said, the breath weapon recharges only after a short rest, so it should be more powerful than a cantrip. If you want to add a superior recharge rate then keep the damage as-is, but that's not what our suggestions were talking about.

this is meaningless. a sorceror already has cantrips.

[odigity]

The closest race by comparison is the Tiefling.

I think Tiefling sucks, too. It's the only class that gets its stat bonuses to two different spellcasting abilities -- the one combo you will almost never benefit from. The only benefit worth mentioning is fire resistance. The cantrips/spells are so minor in the grand scheme of things compared to always-on benefits like stats, proficiencies, immunities, speed boost, darkvision, etc.


Spells only increase in damage if cast in a higher slot so the Breath Weapon becomes better than a base Burning Hands.

It's a breath weapon. It *should* eventually be better than a 1st lvl spell, especially since you can only use it 1/short rest, unlike Burning Hands.

[flyenemu]

Darkvision seems only logical, but I will strongly caution against blindsight- it's available only in extremely limited ways to PCs, and only at high levels (Rogue 14 or Ranger 18, Druid Wildshaping or Pact of Chain Warlock using an Invocation). 10' Blindsight is actually outright superior to the Rogue Blindsense, and is effectively the equal of the Ranger level 18 ability. If given Blindsight, the best party, mechanically, would *always* be an all Dragonborn party, since then you just need to drop a fog cloud and now you are advantaged vs your foe and they are disadvantaged vs you, in the vast majority of encounters. Blindsight is more powerful than it might initially appear, and rare for a reason.
AND

EDIT: Your suggestions seem totally fine by the way. I forgot to mention that! Recharge chance on breath without increasing damage is good, adding two skill proficiencies is good, yup yup. Darkvision, fine. My only gripe is the blindsight. That's a huge boon, albeit situational which is good, but still, I don't think a racial bonus should negate invisibility as an afterthought. Darkvision is more than enough.
Dralnu & GiantOctopodes,

I nearly fell out of my chair upon the realization of what that little ability had meant. I simply cut and pasted it on over from Half-Dragon with the idea of “that’ll be a cool trick for Fog and such). I have been DMing for half my life and I forgot something so basic a thing as invisibility. *quickly scratches it off list* I would attempt to blame a lack of sleep (due to 12 hour shifts), but the blunder still has been stated. Thank you both for pointing that out.


Way off base. Cantrips are typically single target. Dragonborn breath weapons are all AOE, and are not subject to effects like silence.

For example, if you compare Fire Bolt to Fire Breath; at level 6 it's 2d10 vs 3d6 per hit, or an average of 11 versus an average of 10.5. Similar, except the breath can easily hit more than one target, drastically improving its relative effectiveness.

Additionally, as a sorcerer you already gain a number of cantrips meaning that the most you would gain from Elf is a small amount of flexibility or a utility cantrip. You would already have a primary damage cantrip.
&

1) will do damage, but often half-damage because of saves
2) up to 6 enemies is optimal, and rarely achieved; with a cone you'll usually get 2-3, with a line you're not getting more than 1-2 unless in a narrow hallway
3) 2d6 is still just 7hp... just enough to kill a goblin who fails the save. If your breath weapon can't even kill a goblin, what's the point?

I suggest the cantrip scaling schedule because it's well known, follows the game's power progression (cantrips, extra attacks, and spell levels 3/6/9 all happen on that schedule of 5/11/17), and seems like a good fit.

In other words, don't change the base damage (2d6), but boost it at the same levels cantrips get boosted, and by the same multiplication factor (+1 at each step).
&

Yes it is but this is taking it a little overboard. The closest race by comparison is the Tiefling. It gets a very common resistance while having a non-scaling cantrip and single daily spells as it advances as well as Darkvision. Unlike what you are saying it is like a 1st level spell if not more. Spells only increase in damage if cast in a higher slot so the Breath Weapon becomes better than a base Burning Hands. Dragons are no longer masters of magic in 5e so a cantrip simply doesn't make sense. What does make sense is Darkvision and a 1 minute recharge. I would also consider dropping it to a 1d8 adding your constiution modifier while increasing them at level 5, 10..etc. The 1 minute recharge balances in that you are only doing once an encounter since most creatures with them don't rely on them usually and the modifier to damage helps give it a better base damage as well as scales better.
DeadlyShoe, Amnoriath & Odigity,

Thank you all for your input. I find two ideas conflicting here. One is to make it recharge closer to a cantrip, and scale like one, while the other is to make it closer to a lvl1 spell and scale like one. I do accept that dragonborn are not as magically innate as previous versions, and simply tried to tie it in with other such PC abilities. I would be more apt to increasing the damage and giving it a 1 min recharge (per encounter attack like 4th ed), or keep the lower damage, change it to increase along with cantrips and other such progressions, and have it recharge 33% of the time. I would personally like to see more breathing of fire, lighting, etc. in both combat, and outside for it (RP, Puzzles, etc.). If you increase the damage too much and keep it with a short rest, you will end up with party members wanting to short-rest after every battle more often so the wizards, warlocks, and dragonborn can recharge. I feel that either way, there is a place for each idea. Perhaps a more battle/kick-in the door play style would want greater damage with fewer usages, while more puzzle/controllers would desire a bit less damage with more usages. Thoughts?

[odigity]

Thank you all for your input. I find two ideas conflicting here. One is to make it recharge closer to a cantrip, and scale like one, while the other is to make it closer to a lvl1 spell and scale like one. I do accept that dragonborn are not as magically innate as previous versions, and simply tried to tie it in with other such PC abilities. I would be more apt to increasing the damage and giving it a 1 min recharge (per encounter attack like 4th ed), or keep the lower damage, change it to increase along with cantrips and other such progressions, and have it recharge 33% of the time. I would personally like to see more breathing of fire, lighting, etc. in both combat, and outside for it (RP, Puzzles, etc.). If you increase the damage too much and keep it with a short rest, you will end up with party members wanting to short-rest after every battle more often so the wizards, warlocks, and dragonborn can recharge. I feel that either way, there is a place for each idea. Perhaps a more battle/kick-in the door play style would want greater damage with fewer usages, while more puzzle/controllers would desire a bit less damage with more usages. Thoughts?

I don't think you should change the frequency. Leave it as a short rest power, as intended by the designers. It's not supposed to be a substitute for class abilities, just a nice racial bonus that adds fun and excitement and a little versatility.

The only thing I propose is changing the damage scaling, and even though, only a minor tweak. The original rule is:


A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.

I'm proposing changing it to:


A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 4d6 at 5th level, 6d6 at 11th level, and 8d6 at 17th level.

Slightly increased damage progression (2/4/6/8 instead of 2/3/4/5), and slightly different levels (1/5/11/17 instead of 1/6/11/16).

Why the level tweaks? Because that's the intended progression the game was designed around (see cantrips, extra attacks, spell levels, etc), so it works with the game's skeleton and is also easier to remember.

Why the damage tweaks? So that the ability scales at roughly the same rate as the rest of people's abilities, and so remains consistently relevant. It's not like you can retrain your racial abilities later...

EDIT: To put the damage in perspective, at level 17, that'd be 8d6, which is 28 on average (14 on a save) in a 15' cone (not much, lucky to get 3-4 medium creatures in that) once per short rest. Now, we're talking about a 17th level hero with a breath weapon -- the sole benefit of taking Dragonborn. Surely that doesn't seem unreasonable?

[Feldarove]

Note: I really wanted to post on this thread, but only skimmed the replies.

I think the dragonborn is a bit under powered compared to other races.

What people mentioned in their replies seem like good fixes for balance if you are into that sort of thing.

I would go with.


Darkvision: I think it should have darkvision. Regardless of balance, a freaking dragon-like creature should have darkvision!

Breathweapon: Definitely needs a bump. The sentiment that it should feel awesome to use it every rest is spot on, bump it, tweak it. See what works best.

Resistances: This for the race is completely balanced. With regards to playing a sorcerer, just play a dragonborn type that differers from your sorcerer origin

Ex: I black dragon that has flecks of gold in its skin. Boom! Looks cool, can make for a cool backstory. Good and Evil in the same creature! Oh, what chaos!

As far as speaking in Draconic. and gaining it in sorcerer.

The PHB states that if you already have profiencency, and something else grants you that same proficiency, pick a new one. My group totally abuses this in character creatition, hand picking stuff to get what you want. If being a dragonborn gives you draconic, and sorcerer gives you it, just pick another languages....

[odigity]

Resistances: This for the race is completely balanced. With regards to playing a sorcerer, just play a dragonborn type that differers from your sorcerer origin

Ex: I black dragon that has flecks of gold in its skin. Boom! Looks cool, can make for a cool backstory. Good and Evil in the same creature! Oh, what chaos!

Sure, anything is possible in D&D, including a creature with bloodlines to two different dragon types. But it's kind of stretching things. I think most people would want to strengthen the flavor by more strongly embodying the dragon type they are obviously quite genetically related to already, in which case adding a second resistance doesn't work.

If I were DMing, I'd let the player pick something else that seemed appropriate and of equiv power. Could be a lot of things.


As far as speaking in Draconic. and gaining it in sorcerer.

The PHB states that if you already have profiencency, and something else grants you that same proficiency, pick a new one. My group totally abuses this in character creatition, hand picking stuff to get what you want. If being a dragonborn gives you draconic, and sorcerer gives you it, just pick another languages....

Agree with that.

[flyenemu]

Note: I really wanted to post on this thread, but only skimmed the replies.

I think the dragonborn is a bit under powered compared to other races.

What people mentioned in their replies seem like good fixes for balance if you are into that sort of thing.

I would go with.


Darkvision: I think it should have darkvision. Regardless of balance, a freaking dragon-like creature should have darkvision!

Breathweapon: Definitely needs a bump. The sentiment that it should feel awesome to use it every rest is spot on, bump it, tweak it. See what works best.

Resistances: This for the race is completely balanced. With regards to playing a sorcerer, just play a dragonborn type that differers from your sorcerer origin

Ex: I black dragon that has flecks of gold in its skin. Boom! Looks cool, can make for a cool backstory. Good and Evil in the same creature! Oh, what chaos!

As far as speaking in Draconic. and gaining it in sorcerer.

The PHB states that if you already have profiencency, and something else grants you that same proficiency, pick a new one. My group totally abuses this in character creatition, hand picking stuff to get what you want. If being a dragonborn gives you draconic, and sorcerer gives you it, just pick another languages....

Feldarove,

Glad you could join our conversation, and thank you for your input. I agree with your idea as well as Odigity's.

Sure, anything is possible in D&D, including a creature with bloodlines to two different dragon types. But it's kind of stretching things. I think most people would want to strengthen the flavor by more strongly embodying the dragon type they are obviously quite genetically related to already, in which case adding a second resistance doesn't work.

If I were DMing, I'd let the player pick something else that seemed appropriate and of equiv power. Could be a lot of things.
My own style is an attempt to keep with the base idea of the rules while allowing fun to run wild. My only real rule is that is must make sense. My question is how would you get black and gold dragon blood into the same creature. Outright NOs tend to kill imagination rather than foster it. Thank you both again for your input.

[odigity]

Feldarove,

Glad you could join our conversation, and thank you for your input. I agree with your idea as well as Odigity's.

My own style is an attempt to keep with the base idea of the rules while allowing fun to run wild. My only real rule is that is must make sense. My question is how would you get black and gold dragon blood into the same creature. Outright NOs tend to kill imagination rather than foster it. Thank you both again for your input.

I never said you shouldn't allow it. I said I think most players would be more interested in reinforcing their Dragonborn heritage with their Draconic Sorceror, in which case another solution is needed besides "add a second energy resistance".

[Kane0]

For what its worth, i've altered dragonborn to give:

+2 STR
+1 Cha
Darkvision 60' (Elves and half elves get it, dragonborn have no excuse)
Energy Resistance based on lineage
Breath weapon based on lineage (1/Rest, 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6 at levels 1, 5, 11 and 17). Im tempted to make it a bonus action too
Draconic Language
History as bonus skill proficiency, and i'll probably replace this with a cool flavor trait once I or my group comes up with one.

[odigity]

For what its worth, i've altered dragonborn to give:

+2 STR
+1 Cha
Darkvision 60' (Elves and half elves get it, dragonborn have no excuse)
Energy Resistance based on lineage
Breath weapon based on lineage (1/Rest, 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6 at levels 1, 5, 11 and 17). Im tempted to make it a bonus action too
Draconic Language
History as bonus skill proficiency, and i'll probably replace this with a cool flavor trait once I or my group comes up with one.

That sounds perfect, though I wouldn't make it a bonus action, and I'm not sure adding a skill proficiency is warranted after you've added Darkvision and fixed the Breath Weapon. There's nothing especially skillful about Dragonborn, and don't forget resistance to Fire is pretty dang great all by itself. Like, almost feat-worthy.

[Amnoriath]

I think Tiefling sucks, too. It's the only class that gets its stat bonuses to two different spellcasting abilities -- the one combo you will almost never benefit from. The only benefit worth mentioning is fire resistance. The cantrips/spells are so minor in the grand scheme of things compared to always-on benefits like stats, proficiencies, immunities, speed boost, darkvision, etc.



It's a breath weapon. It *should* eventually be better than a 1st lvl spell, especially since you can only use it 1/short rest, unlike Burning Hands.

1. While Thamaturgy pretty much only has outside use on mundane things it is still versatile, but seriously you are dissing Darkness and Hellish Rebuke? Maybe not from a pure SAD standpoint but for qualification into things that can help a bit whether it be multiclassing or feats. It also has a very useful resistance and Darkvision.
2. Yeah at that point it is only 1/day up to 4 at most. Besides you are cherry picking what I said and taking it out of context.

[Mellack]

Feldarove,

Glad you could join our conversation, and thank you for your input. I agree with your idea as well as Odigity's.

My own style is an attempt to keep with the base idea of the rules while allowing fun to run wild. My only real rule is that is must make sense. My question is how would you get black and gold dragon blood into the same creature. Outright NOs tend to kill imagination rather than foster it. Thank you both again for your input.

My understanding is that dragonborn are so interbred that it is very likely they have several different dragon types in their bloodlines. They have been interbreeding for thousands of years and often have a brownish color (a mixture of many colors makes brown.) It is much like people having generally have more than one ethnicity in their lineage. Genetics could easily have them display some traits of different dragon types.

[odigity]

...but seriously you are dissing Darkness and Hellish Rebuke?

Yes, I am. I find Darkness to only be really useful with the Warlock's Devil's Sight, and while I think Hellish Rebuke is cool in adding a minor Reaction attack, it's only 7 dmg and only once per day. Once per day you can kill a goblin after it hurts you. Yay.


Maybe not from a pure SAD standpoint but for qualification into things that can help a bit whether it be multiclassing or feats.

The only time you'd need both Int and Cha to MC is if you're mixing Wizard and (Bard|Paladin|Sorcerer|Warlock), which is rare (I've never seen any of those four pairs mentioned on this forum once) -- and in that instance I'd still prefer Half-Elf or Variant Human.


It also has a very useful resistance and Darkvision.

Yes; as I said before, the resistance is the one benefit worth mentioning.


2. Yeah at that point it is only 1/day up to 4 at most. Besides you are cherry picking what I said and taking it out of context.

I don't see how. I actually try very hard to never do this. I pride myself at being consistently good at avoiding this, though I suppose it's still possible occasionally.

[Amnoriath]

Yes, I am. I find Darkness to only be really useful with the Warlock's Devil's Sight, and while I think Hellish Rebuke is cool in adding a minor Reaction attack, it's only 7 dmg and only once per day. Once per day you can kill a goblin after it hurts you. Yay.



The only time you'd need both Int and Cha to MC is if you're mixing Wizard and (Bard|Paladin|Sorcerer|Warlock), which is rare (I've never seen any of those four pairs mentioned on this forum once) -- and in that instance I'd still prefer Half-Elf or Variant Human.



Yes; as I said before, the resistance is the one benefit worth mentioning.



I don't see how. I actually try very hard to never do this. I pride myself at being consistently good at avoiding this, though I suppose it's still possible occasionally.
1. It is an automatic debuff in which you just pointed towards a good class to take it in as it gives much needed extra slots. Also the Paladin could use the diversity.
2. Or if you are taking Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate.
3. You listed Darkvision treating as if they didn't have it.
4. You took out 2 sentences out of a paragraph of suggestions to fix the Dragonborn and you treated it as if somehow I was using the Tiefling as the basis and even that I somehow thought it was good as it. I clearly referred to Dragons and how a Darkvision as well as bit more of a consistent breath weapon is needed but not at will because not even Dragons do. So, don't tell me aren't when you aren't criticizing the suggestions otherwise you are just going off topic.