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mvpmack
2014-12-23, 06:34 PM
Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. I've done a lot of forum searching and picked up a wealth of useful info on the topic, but all of it seems geared to higher level parties and stronger dragons.

I'm a player in an E6 party, and we have the opportunity to make a large difference in our gameworld by slaying or capturing (latter somewhat unlikely) a Large white dragon. The encounter is optional at this point, so if you guys think it'd be too difficult we may just back out until we have better preparation.

There are a fair number of houserules and I'll try to cover as much relevant info as I can to help you guys out.

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The scenario is that our party is leading a company of soldiers (approx. 100 fighting men and women, plus support) into a foreign country. The company is financed by a wealthy ex-diplomat/lawyer/aristocrat, and led by the party's fighter.

The country in question is similar to North America prior to European intervention, meaning relatively uncivilized tribals. The country is in the far south, and the climate is similar to real-world northern Russia or Alaska. The time of year is mid-winter. The overall "feel" of the people is a sort of Inuit or Eskimo type of vibe.

The country is in the middle of a civil war. There are two major tribal alliances; one is isolationist and wants to cut ties with the outside world. They're also militant and the aggressors in the war. The other alliance wants to build ties with the outside. If you've ever played Dragon Age, the whole situation seems similar to the Bhelen/Harrowmont faction war in the dwarven lands, except that the hostilities are open and span a region roughly the size of Alaska. Our DM has never played Dragon Age, so I found this particular correlation amusing.

Our player characters are outsiders, and their home country is at war with a third, northern country (meaning, closer to the equator in our case). The players have decided that a hostile force on a second front is a worst case scenario and have decided to intervene to make sure that the militant isolationists don't win the war.

We've arrived at an outpost/town of the friendly tribes and have offered our assistance. As it turns out, an enemy outpost that our convoy snuck past (using the fighter's exceptional knowledge skills to avoid likely patrol areas, she rolled a 35, wow) is a dire threat to the town. The town has a garrison of about 200 fighting men (plus a larger civillian population). The enemy outpost has approximately 400 fighting men. The catch is that they also have a white dragon. We only have a rough guess of how big it is: either M or L, and probably L. It goes without saying that if a L white dragon battles a conventional military force that the dragon will completely decimate the enemy. The outpost can hold -- the enemy won't risk the losses, including the dragon, of attacking into an entrenched force, so they primarily are using raiding parties to cripple supply lines and harass patrols. It is a losing proposition for our future allies if the situation cannot be dealt with in a few months.

This is an E6 world. The only way to deal with that dragon is with another dragon or a team of superheroes.

The currently brainstormed plan is to use the fighter's superior strategic knowledge to ambush an enemy patrol using only the PC party and deal enough damage (by killing people) to force the patrol to retreat. The patrol will then relay the information about a small group of well-armed raiders, and hopefully the dragon will go to deal with us. Then, we kill the dragon. Once we've done that, we can hopefully mount a counteroffensive and start cutting down enemy raiding parties with planned military action and/or PC badassery.

The problem is, well, killing the dragon. It isn't going to be a typical "uberdragon" relative to other campaigns; it's likely not very smart and has little or no casting ability, but we can expect it to have magic items of some kind. He may have some support from enemy troops, but due to his massive 300ft flight speed (much faster than cavalry), I suspect we have a good chance that it will act alone.

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There are 3 player characters and 3 NPCs. The party is honestly not ideal, and we may not have the composition or availability of counters to a dragon. We have a slight lean-upwards and limited gestalt version of E6. Our DM is also very generous when it comes to giving out freebie feats, skill points, and other rewards for accomplishing goals, either personal goals or storyline goals.

PC#1
Homebrew half-fey bard 6 - Medium fey (Elf) - Neutral
The bard is my character. He's probably of the least value in the battle mechanically, and I suspect his main use will be his very high level of UMD. He is on the path towards gestalt wizard, so he may have a familiar and some level 0 wizard slots by the time this battle occurs (he is very close to a bonus feat).
Noteworthy spells for this situation:
Daze (lol), Ghost Sound, Silent Image, Inspirational Boost, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Alter Self, Invisibility, Haste. His spell slots are 3/4/3/2.
Noteworthy feats:
Extend Spell, Arcane Preparation, Melodic Casting (plus he has third level slots, lol), and Favored Enemy: Dragon (+4).
The favored enemy feat was a storyline bonus feat. It differs slightly from the traditional Favored Enemy in that he gets the bonus on spell penetration checks rather than damage (he has dealt 0 points of lethal damage during the entire campaign, and only 4 nonlethal), which will let him get through a young adult's SR16 on a roll of 6 or better.
Noteworthy items:
His WBL is bloated with trash (+1 rapier? wtf?). Blame the DM.
+1 rapier, +1 chain shirt, masterwork light crossbow, cloak of comfort +1, ring of silent spells, tome of worldly memory, type 1 bag of holding, plus some miscellaneous scrolls and potions. He has an air elemental gem, but I would REALLY prefer to trade it to people involved in the war effort (and get something useful) rather than use it here.
Noteworthy skills:
Perform (sing) over 9000, Diplomacy over 9000, UMD +15/+19 with scrolls, KS: Arcana +10, bardic knowledge +11.
Defenses:
36 hp (wow!), +6 Ref, +7 Will. His AC is "hope I don't get attacked." He has no special defense against frightful presence, but being shaken only hurts his saves against breath weapons since SR penetration checks aren't skill or ability checks, and forcing save DC isn't either. It will hurt his ability to use UMD a bit.

PC#2
Human fighter 6/gestalt rogue 1 - Medium humanoid (human, dragonblood) - Chaotic Good
Fighters are slightly buffed due to their general UP-ness in E6. They possess the warblade's ability to change weapon style feats, and level 6 fighters automatically qualify for fighter level 8/BAB+8 feats without having extra feat tax. She has a lot of skill points, but her STR is kind of low (only 14 with no buff items). She is also fully a 1st level rogue and has all 1st level rogue class features, including evasion and sneak attack +1d6.
Noteworthy feats:
Dragontouched, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Acrobat, plus all level 1 Rogue class features.
Noteworthy items:
+1 humanbane small longsword, masterwork longsword, masterwork composite longbow +2STR, 10x +1 dragonbane arrow, white dragon scale breastplate, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 cloak of resistance, armor crystal of arrow deflection: least. She can also use the tome of worldly knowledge. The small longsword has been regripped to avoid the -4 size penalty. DM specifically gave it to her so that she could use one weapon focus/spec (longsword) for both main and off hand, and ruled that longsword focus applies to both. How nice of him! She's made exactly one attack against one enemy for which humanbane applied. Less nice :(
Noteworthy skills:
Tumble +14, KS: Warfare (campaign version of martial lore; more oriented towards military strategy) +10, Jump +12. Stealth +9 (houserule; stealth and perception skills are merged, similar to PF)
66 HP, AC 20 (+1 dodge), Ref +5, Will +1.
Houserule (or interpretation): Dragonblooded characters are immune to frightful presence of dragons, so her awful Will save isn't so bad. This is not RAW, but due to the reading of dragonblood subtype, the DM agreed that the subtype should be considered "dragon" for frightful presence resistance, considering that dragonbane weapons and similar items harm dragonblooded characters (as RAW).

PC#3
Aasimar cleric 6/gestalt paladin 1 - Medium outsider (native) - Lawful Good
There is a significant homebrew cleric nerf in play: Clerics (and druids) get spells known as SRD clerics (or druids); if they want to know other spells, they must lose a SRD spell from their list of spells known. There are a few spells known that are freebies for the campaign setting. Domain spells are separate from known spells; a cleric can cast a domain spell even if it's not on his spells known (our cleric does not know Magic Weapon, but can cast it via his domain slot). Also, our cleric has a single smite pool, which he can use for either his domain smite or his paladin smite evil as he wishes. He is a battle cleric and follows a Neutral Good war deity. He has all abilities of a 1st level paladin.
Domains: War, Destruction. DM ruled that the deity's favored weapon is bastard sword (technically not a martial weapon). I suggested it was assault rifle (she's a very pragmatic goddess) but he said that, given the circumstances of the world (assault rifles haven't been invented), bastard sword is the most appropriate choice. Also, the cleric's 3rd level domain spell for Destruction is the level 3 Inflict spell rather than Contagion (destroying enemy combatants and structures is the domain theme for her).
Noteworthy spells:
Impede, Wieldskill (spell compendium), Elation, Sound Burst, Knight's Move, Bladebane (houseruled to have no material component), Summon Monster (all 3 levels), Holy Storm, Resist Energy (mass), plus most useful SRD spells; I noted Summon Monster because it's part of my theoretical strategy.
Noteworthy feats:
Weapon Focus/EWP Bastard Sword (domain), Combat Casting, Shielded Casting, Power Attack.
Noteworthy items:
+1 bastard sword, masterwork composite longbow +2STR, masterwork full plate, +1 large shield, tunic of steady spellcasting, amulet of natural armor, healing belt.
His only noteworthy skill is KS: Religion +7, which will only be useful if the dragon or its help has divine caster class levels.
55 HP. His character sheet is so cluttered I have no idea what the hell his saves are. He has fear immunity since he's a first level paladin, so he's immune to frightful presence.

NPC#1
Lizardfolk sorcerer 5 - Medium humanoid (reptilian, dragonblood) - Chaotic Good
Note, he's not level 6 and doesn't have level 3 spells. He doesn't have racial HD. He's the draconic sorcerer variant, so he does not have a familiar and instead has Draconic Heritage (silver). I don't have his full character sheet so I don't know his exact stats.
Noteworthy spells: mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, grease, invisibility, glitterdust
Noteworthy feats: draconic heritage (silver), silver dragon lineage, draconic resistance (lot of cold resist), multiattack.
Noteworthy items: cloak of charisma +2.

NPC#2
Human sorcerer 4 - Medium humanoid (human, dragonblood) - Lawful Evil
He's an aristocrat looking to stake a claim in the war. He's a sorcerer (high CHA) so he is generally well-liked, except for the two paladins in the company (party cleric and a level 1 paladin) who have evildar. He is a blaster sorc, and we won't be keeping him around long-term. Still, please refrain from suggesting we sacrifice him to the dragon or something; my bard is banging his sister and his dad is a pretty big deal. Plus, you know, friends in high places and all that. I have never seen his character sheet and we only know what he's capable of by what he has used in previous encounters. He is also a dragonblooded sorcerer and doesn't have a familiar.
Noteworthy spells: scorching ray. We've seen him cast sleep too, but I don't think that will be helpful. He also has mentioned that he has color spray, and all spellcasters have prestidigitation.
Noteworthy feats: point blank shot, precise shot, draconic heritage (red). He might have weapon focus (ranged touch) too, but I don't know. He has never missed with scorching ray, though part of that might be inspirational boosted bardsong talking.
Noteworthy items: bracers of armor +2, cloak of resistance +2, three fireball scrolls. He also has at least one metamagic rod, but I don't know what feat it is. I suspect it's Empower, but he has never used it or even pulled out the rod for us to see. He is filthy rich and probably has many more items than this. Again, please refrain from "sacrifice the human sorcerer" plots.
Noteworthy skills: He has enough KS: Arcana to aid the bard; I think he's +8 or so. His spellcraft is also fairly good, though I don't know.

NPC#3
Human rogue 4 - Medium humanoid (human) - Chaotic Good
Out of everyone in the party, he has the most problems with frightful presence. We may need a remove fear potion or something, since he will panic if he fails a save and his Will save is not good (probably +1 Wis bonus). I may just lend him my cloak of comfort and use the lizard sorc's cloak of charisma, I dunno. He is not fully trusted by anyone except the bard (who is a significant character in the rogue's backstory), but the other players are warming up to him since he has done nothing but good, loyal actions.
Noteworthy feats: point blank shot, precise shot. He might have others, I don't know.
Noteworthy skills: Very high stealth (I think around +9 or +10) and perception (+8, which is how I guessed his WIS bonus). Good or better in most other rogue skills.
Noteworthy items: masterwork shortbow, masterwork chain shirt, +1 flaming arrows of unknown quantity, +1 dragonbane arrows of unknown quantity.

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A lone CR8 creature would be a fairly dangerous challenge for this group, which leads me to believe we're either facing a L young adult white dragon or a M juvenile white dragon with support (metagaming, ho!). Our first step is definitely to use Wieldskill, the tome of worldly knowledge, the human sorc's aid another and the bard's +10 KS: arcana to identify as much as we can about this specific dragon. Since the plan came together late last session, we did not have time to do that, hence the many unknowns about the dragon itself.

My tentative plan is to use the cleric's Summon Monster III and a scroll of Summon Monster III (ideally with augment summoning or something, but that would be lucky) to summon a pair of celestial bison. They have cold resistance and enough HD to get DR/magic, which allows them to bypass the dragon's DR, plus a lot of damage on their gore attacks. Once we get the dragon on the ground, we box it in with the cleric, fighter, and two bison and DPS it down; haste, scorching ray, sneak arrow attacks and smites should get it down very quickly.

The plan is also to use Shield Other and Spiritual Vestment on the fighter so that the fighter and cleric share HP totals. She's wearing a white dragon breastplate, she is extremely loud and arrogant, and younger white dragons are not very smart. Hopefully she can goad the dragon into coming down and facing her, upon which she will likely eat a few full attacks before the dragon dies. Shield Other will help her stay alive. Obviously, we'll use resist energy (mass) to help weather the breath weapon storm until the dragon comes down. Our cleric can also attempt to use holy storm after the dragon is boxed in. The problem with that is that the dragon might not be evil; unlike the stat block, white dragons are not always evil in this setting.

We will need to somehow get the fighter's longsword magical. I'm thinking that an oil or scroll of greater magic weapon (caster level 6) would be most ideal since the cleric only has a few level 3 slots. The same is true for the rogue's bow. Though he has magic arrows, they are expensive and this battle isn't in a vacuum. Also, he isn't fully committed to the party cause and might not want to spend his dinero cash dollars just because we ask (although he'd likely be compensated anyway, so it might not be that big of a deal).

We will need fear protection for at least the rogue, and ideally also the bard. The bard has inspire courage to help (with inspirational boost, so +2), but that is not really protection. If the rogue fails his save, he's out of the fight unless we can get to him and break the fear before he gets out of range.

Here's the big elephant in the room, though. How do we get the dragon to come down if he doesn't want to come down willingly? I saw Downdraft (in spell compendium, I think?) which is CLR3/DRD3 and will put the dragon on ground level if he gets in range to use his breath weapon. The main issue with that is that it takes up the cleric's valuable actions to use, and his actions will be very important early on. Also, the cleric is not as good as penetrating SR as the bard. The bard could UMD it, but there's the issue of possibly failing a frightful presence save plus he only has 12 WIS, thus he has to pass a very hard DC28 check to emulate 13 WIS. I'll have to bring a potion of owl's wisdom (or get buffed by the cleric) if I plan on doing that.

Scrolls, potions, and other ideas from 3.5 and PF are both fine. WotC books are OK; Dragon is not. Anything not SRD has to be approved by DM, but as you've probably already noticed, he's a nice guy and is willing to work with players. We may not have a lot of access to specialty magic items, so simple/SRD is best for solutions.

Also, what are some possible feat builds for the dragon? Give me some worst-case scenarios please! Thanks in advance guys!

Blackhawk748
2014-12-23, 06:51 PM
As a heads up White Dragons have the Highest AC for their CR among base dragons. Also, while they may not be incredibly intelligent White Dragons are Alpha Predators when they hit Large, so if it is Large it knows it is the biggest and baddest thing around. This is not arrogance, this is fact. There is very little that can take on a White Dragon straight up, and the things it cant fight (and its usually smart enough to be able to tell) it can out run.

As a side not dont forget that White Dragons have 4 movement speeds, Land, Swim, Flying and Burrow. Watch out for that last one as its 30 ft so its pretty hard to get away from it.

As for tactics, get into some trees if you can find them, it will make you harder to spot and may make the dragon land, on top of this get a scroll of entangle so that when he is on the ground he doesnt move. Finally try to get your hands on some dust of sneezing this stuff is just plain awesome as it will stun lock the thing so you can wail on it.

Fouredged Sword
2014-12-23, 07:02 PM
Ok, pick up some alchemical items. Tangle foot bags will keep it where your bisons can do some serious damage.

See if you can get your hands on some scrolls of Fireball. This is a nice long range spell that will seriously hurt the dragon. They shouldn't be TOO expensive, and half your group can UMD or at least has it on their spell list to throw around.

Sith_Happens
2014-12-23, 07:13 PM
The good news is a Large White will be a Sorcerer 1 at most, the bad news is it'll hit like a truck. Your biggest problem is movement; White Dragons can fly, swim, burrow, and Spider Climb on ice, which means if you don't pick the arena very carefully the fight is going to look like something out of a horror movie.

Oh, and make sure you have access to decent cold resistance, that should be obvious.

JDL
2014-12-23, 09:08 PM
Dust of Sneezing and Choking, as was mentioned, is a wonderful item. Unfortunately it lists CL 7th, which in an E6 game doesn't exist. By RAW the item doesn't actually require CL a 7th character to create it, merely the spell and feat (which could be managed by a 6th level Druid) but I doubt it'll be possible to find in this DM's campaign.

If this was me I'd be aiming for Dex: 0 to take out the dragon.

Entangled: -4 to Dex. Tanglefoot bag is the go-to method here.
Exhaustion: -2 to Dex. Ray of Fatigue spell. You can guarantee it'll make its save 95% of the time since you're probably going to scroll this one.
Other: Ray of Clumsiness spell (SpC p166). 1d6+1 per 2 caster levels. May take one or two hits to work after the two above.

If we're using purely consumables here instead of casting the spells you'll want your two Sorcerers to have scrolls or wands of Ray of Fatigue and Ray of Clumsiness ready. Start with Ray of Fatigue first, once it lands switch to Ray of Clumsiness. Your other four characters should focus on throwing tanglefoot bags and defending the sorcerers.

If Ray of Clumsiness is unavailable due to ban by DM you're gonna have a hard time of it. The next best option is to have everyone throwing alchemist's fire flasks vs. the dragon's touch AC. Don't forget that if your rogue gets sneak attack against the dragon you can add the sneak attack dice, and all that damage is fire type.

mvpmack
2014-12-24, 12:17 AM
Thank you very much everyone for your replies!

Dust of sneezing and choking could probably be available, and unseen servant is on both all 3 arcane spellcasters' lists. However, the DM and I have a sort of unwritten agreement that says I will not ruin his game with silly BS. There's a pretty good chance he will just look at it and say "uhm no dude," even though it is actually quite possible to cast Poison at CL7 in an E6 setting. I've already disallowed myself from using Shivering Touch for this reason, even though the campaign uses quite a bit of Frostburn content.

Regarding ray of clumsiness, it is probably OK. The problem with it is that it cannot lower DEX below 1. Ray of Exhaustion would work (fatigued is -2, exhausted is -6), plus the Entangled status effect would lower a typical dragon's 10 DEX to 0. Ray of Exhaustion would have to get through SR to work, though and we might have to hit twice with it. Once it's down though we'd have 2 rounds per tanglefoot bag to land the win, which should be more than enough. If the dragon has even 1 DEX over that (via items or racial stat variance) we'd be in trouble.

The tanglefoot bag idea has some merit, but we have a minor issue in that it is a ranged touch attack with a 10 foot range increment. Throwing it 40 feet (the range of its breath weapon) would be rather difficult. It also has a fairly low reflex save DC of 15 and a young adult dragon has +9 on reflex saves.

Countering burrow might not be a huge issue. A dragon moving underground still needs to breathe, and if it's moving at combat speeds it probably will be limited by the number of rounds it can hold its breath. Since burrowing displaces the ground (at least, it would in real world physics), it would be fairly easy to follow, especially since PCs can run and the dragon can't. The dragon also doesn't have tremorsense so it can't know what is above it until it comes back up.

Regarding the battlefield: We will have a fair amount of choice as to where we fight the dragon but it will have to be on open ground. The landscape is hilly, but there is little vegetation (think winter in Alaska). Most nearby trees have been logged, due to the presence of two local settlements. We can see what we can do about finding an advantaged terrain of some kind, but there is really nothing we can do without game mechanics (spells or items) to get it to land.

Once it does land, if we box it in, it will not be able to fly again. It has poor maneuverability, and thus requires a jump to fly. A 15 HD dragon will probably have a significant number of ranks in Jump, but the DC for a standing high jump is very hard, Jump is a cross-class skill, and his STR bonus is probably no greater than +5 (base STR of 19, possibly higher with racial variance but I doubt our DM would raise his STR since his full attack is already very dangerous). It seems likely that damage dealt to a creature while jumping would impose a penalty on its Jump check, and with 4 creatures attacking I doubt that is desirable. Even with the Hover feat he has to be already flying, so any method of getting it down will keep it down unless it can take off before attackers get in position.

We have 3 scrolls of fireball in the human sorc's inventory. He might not want to give them up, but we should have at least two people who can use them (he probably won't let the lizardman use one, but the bard is very charming). These would be more of a last resort if the dragon somehow is able to flee (by dropping our cleric, probably).

Ruethgar
2014-12-24, 12:21 AM
White Dragons have horrible charisma and intelligence, diplomancy against one would be easy. That is the premise behind many a White Dragonspawn.

mvpmack
2014-12-24, 03:55 AM
White Dragons have horrible charisma and intelligence, diplomancy against one would be easy. That is the premise behind many a White Dragonspawn.

That would not be the first time the bard has seduced a dragon. Still, this is E6 so my diplomancy has limits. I only have like, +23, so it's hard to get a hostile to friendly or better disposition change with a rushed check, and would be harder within the context of a battle where there are penalties. It's possible that I could infiltrate the enemy camp and seduce/persuade the dragon to change sides. I fear the other players and the DM would lynch me if I attempted it though.

Coidzor
2014-12-24, 06:59 AM
So the bad news is that an Adult White Dragon would be basically auto-hitting you all if it gets off a full attack, especially if it nabs Multiattack or Improved Multiattack and most of you would fail the save against the breath attack quite often and its DPR is going to be ~51.5 for those it only misses on a Nat 1, dipping down to ~43.5 for the Cleric 6//Paladin 1 if their AC is 24.

You may want to lure it into an ambush where you could bring volley fire to bear against it, though its reflex save is pretty high, I can't recall offhand if the damage from massed or volley fire would be better than eating the misses and getting your Inspire Courage on.

Getting a bunch of nets and lassos on it would at least make it a bit more vulnerable and if it decided to shred the nets, well, that's an attack not directed at your party and any minions you can rustle up.

It's immune to Shivering Touch due to having the Cold subtype, so that's out for capturing/debilitating/killing the dragon. How's your access to poisons? Find out what sorta things it likes to eat and then figure out a way to dose them in a poison that will only get exposed once the dragon eats the bait.

Fascinate + Suggestion + a goat full of bottles of black lotus extract or a non-lethal poison may be a winning combo here. Even with a fairly high will save due to those Dragon HD, it'll have some difficulty beating your Perform Check, especially if your allies can buff you up there. I believe it'd take a while but you'd eventually be able to get a Suggestion through, since there seems to be no penalty for trying to use Suggestion over and over again. Although this is predicated on your being able to get through the spell resistance with the initial Fascinate and eventually getting through the SR with your suggestion, too.

I would definitely recommend doing reconaissance or asking around for any information you can get on its approach to combat to see if you can determine what feats it might be rocking in advance or at the very least its usual tactics. Going by standard MM blurbs, it'll probably favor getting as many full attacks on you as it can or fly-by-attacking you.

If it decides to grapple one of you, you'll not be able to do anything about it with that grapple bonus it's rocking, but I can't remember what access it might have to Improved Grab to take one of you away from the others, at least, since it would have to be Huge to get access to the Snatch feat, at least going by the MM1 version.

Assume it's pretty good at hiding(despite its size) and moving silently, especially with its burrow speed and terrain advantage if the DM gives circumstance bonuses for its camouflaging itself well, though at least it will have to invest in some ability to see very well while burrowing until it's close to the party as its blindsense only works one it has found you all.