I'll NEVER Die! (A Guide to the 5E Barbarian)

[NeoSeraphi]

Seen guides pop up the last few weeks for rangers, wizards, clerics, paladins, and warlocks, but I don't think there's one for the 5E barbarian yet. Seeing as it's so straight forward, I feel like it might not be needed, but because it's so straight forward, it's also really easy for me to make it, so here you guys go:

The Barbarian

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/018/b/4/A_Barbarian_II_by_Vehemel.jpg
Note the huge axe, lack of a shirt, and manly chest. All of these are mandatory.


The Color Code:

Light Blue - Mantastic. Take this option or you will be a sissy girly man.
Blue - Manlier than most. Usually a good option, but you may find something better.
Black - Manverage. You won't be losing anything here, but you won't be gaining much either.
Purple - Not optimal. You won't be busting down many doors if you take this option.
Red - Oddly enough, the manliest color is reserved for the girliest options. Don't be a wuss.

[NeoSeraphi]

Role

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080813052235/diablo/images/c/cd/Fem_barbarian.jpg
For some reason, most acceptable art of female barbarians includes them wearing some kind of fur or animal skinned bra, even though 75% of all actual in-game barbarians (either NPCs or players) will continue to wear nothing above the waist.


Tank - A barbarian is a different kind of tank than a fighter or a paladin. Instead of tanking with lots of armor and Lay on Hands, barbarians tank with their buff, manly chests. With a d12 hit dice and the Bear Totem features, you will laugh off any damage coming your way. And unlike a fighter or a paladin, if the enemy tries to ignore you, you'll just kill them instead!

Damage - A barbarian gets scaling bonus to their damage while they rage, as well as easy access to advantage on attack rolls and a capstone that literally lets them break the rules on capped stats. It doesn't matter. Rogues? Not as accurate. Fighters? Not as high damage. Paladins? Still not as fast as you in that bulky armor. Barbarians are the kings of melee damage in D&D.



The Chassis

HD - You get the highest HD in the game. In fact, the d12 might as well have been created just for barbarians, since its only uses are the beastly greataxe and the barbarian HD.
Skills and Tools - You get 2 skills from a small list, but Perception is on that list so what does it matter? Skills are so easy to pick up in this game anyway. You get two free ones from your background and more from your race. You get no tool proficiencies.
Armor - You get proficiency with everything except heavy armor, so no sky blue here, but still better than average.
Weapons - Everything. Go crazy.
Saving Throws - Strength saves aren't that common, but when they do come up they're usually meant to get you away from something that you should be beating the crap out of, so it's nice that you get a bonus to avoid that. Con saves kill you, and if you're dead that cuts in to your face-smashing time, so make sure you roll high.




The Class Features

Unarmored Defense: You get to use your chest as armor. Immensely flavorful, to the point that I wish it was a thing in 3.P so that I could have had it then too. It just seem so...core to the barbarian identity. It's not as good as full plate, obviously, but if you want to play a true, shirtless barbarian, you won't be gimped for doing so.

Rage: This is why you play a barbarian. And somehow, even though it's lost the traditional ability score bonuses, rage has become even more manly. Advantage on Str saves and Str checks. You rage, you're going to break that door down and no wimpy monk is going to be pushing you back. You get a bonus to damage, which means that your damage will always be higher than someone else who has 20 Str. Very good. And you get resistance to physical damage. At level 1. This is ridiculous. Your chest will literally break arrows while you have to make an Int check to even notice you were attacked. Which you will fail, because you are a man.

Rage does have a weird restriction now, but that isn't enough to push it below sky blue.

Reckless Attack: Rogue/barbarian multiclass anyone? (A rogue has to use a finesse weapon to Sneak Attack, but they don't need to use the finesse quality if they don't want to, so you could use a dagger with your Strength and still Sneak Attack). Like I said, a barbarian tanks with his health, not his AC, so making sure people hit you (and then halving the damage you take) in order to make sure you hit them is ridiculous. This doesn't even take an action to use and as long as you're doing your job and dropping the enemies in one round you won't even feel the penalty.

If your DM allows it, you can also use Reckless Attack to disarm your opponents more easily (by making an attack roll against the target's Athletics or Acrobatics check) and then using your object interaction to pick the item up and deny it to the enemy.

Danger Sense: Dex saves are very common, and while you don't get proficiency with them, advantage on them is arguably better anyway. If you take the Resilient (Dexterity) feat this becomes sky blue.

Extra Attack: You do more damage than a paladin, ranger or monk, and you still get the same number of attacks as them.

Fast Movement: I'm honestly not sure what inspired this in the first place. To me, this should be part of a totem (lion possibly) if the intended flavor is that some barbarians try to emulate fast animals. It's a decent ability, to be sure, and you'll be glad for it most times, but generally DMs will build encounters around the standard move speed because the rest of your party will be slower, so you might not notice this.

Feral Instinct: Advantage on initiative checks? That's amazing! And you get to act normally during surprise rounds when you're raging. Combined with Reckless Attack and Fast Movement, I really do have to wonder if WotC does want to see Barbarian/Assassin Rogue multiclasses. Someone get on that already.

Brutal Critical: This is amazingly flavorful, and helps to emulate that original greataxe feel, but considering that it still only has a 5% chance of occurring it's not that useful in game. But when it does come up, you will feel more like a barbarian than you ever have.

Relentless Rage: You can, by making a DC 10 Con save, literally keep fighting even when you would die. Considering that orcs are not a playable race and half-orcs can only do this once per long rest, this is basically the only way in the game to emulate that old school Ferocity ability. Not that it matters, since it's on the only class that needs it.

Persistent Rage: It's certainly a welcome ability, but it's the removal of a restriction that was only added this edition, and if you play correctly you should never end your rage prematurely anyway (unless your DM is intending for that to happen). A decidedly meh ability at a level where you should really be feeling much manlier.

Indomitable Might: Seriously, my friends and I can't read this ability without laughing out loud. If you roll less than 20 on a Strength check you can take 20 on that check instead. The best part is, of course, that you can still roll the dice first, so if you roll higher than 20, you keep that roll.

Primal Champion: You get to have more Strength than anyone else at the table. Period. But what if - no. The capstone for barbarians literally lets them break the rules of capped stats. And gives them the 4 Str and Con on top of that. Mannificient.



Primal Paths

Path of the Berserker

Frenzy - It's so disappointing. Such a great ability that is ruined by the system, not the ability itself. The problem here is that levels of exhaustion can only be removed one at a time by the greater restoration spell, which is only available to clerics and druids, costs 100 gp per cast, and consumes a 5th level spell slot (so you only get it at 9th level and onward). So in a game where you are expecting to run into 6 encounters a day at all levels, wearing yourself out is not something you want to do, ever.

Mindless Rage: You become fearless and can't be swayed by charm when it matters most. You can also enter a rage to suppress any fear or charm that is currently on you. An excellent feature especially at the level it comes online.

Intimidating Presence: Very flavorful, but it comes online a little late, and it scales off your Charisma, which is probably your fourth highest stat (Str>Con>Dex>Cha>Wis>Int).

Retaliation: A beautiful capstone that rounds out an all around not so beautiful path. This is the only class feature a Path of the Berserker will have that uses his reaction, so there is nothing other than feats that prevents you from doing this and nothing else every round.


Path of the Totem Warrior

Spirit Seeker: Who says a barbarian can't scout? The beast sense spell is amazing, and being able to cast it as a ritual without taking a feat is both flavorful and ridiculously useful. Speak with animals will more than likely also have its shining moments in any game. Honestly, the only problem I have with this feature and this path in general is that it feels so perfect for an outlander warrior that it invalidates the ranger more than the ranger does.

Totem Spirit (Colors based on choice)

Bear: You get resistance to all damage while you are raising (except psychic). Someone drops a fireball on you? Half damage. Get poisoned? Half damage. Dragon breathes lightning on you? Half damage. The single greatest tanking ability, not only in this entire book, but in any tabletop RPG period, and it comes online at 3rd level. Man up and be a bear.

Eagle: Don't get me wrong, mobility is nice. But again, you are a barbarian. 9 times out of 10, you're going to be getting hit anyway, and if you took Bear, you'd be taking half damage from those OAs even if they were magic or silver weapons, so it's just not that great an ability comparatively speaking.

Wolf: Reckless Attack for everybody! Seriously, advantage on all attack rolls (and more importantly negative disadvantage on all attack rolls) for your allies is beyond amazing. Of course, this is melee only, so if you're the only melee character in the party, this becomes red, but even just one rogue or paladin in the group brings it back up to black. (The skyblue rating is assuming you have 2 other melee characters in the party, which is the most common time you'd take it).


Aspect of the Beast

Bear: Your carrying capacity is doubled, when you already have 20 Strength. You gain advantage on some Strength checks, which rage already gives you. Admittedly, this lets you get that advantage without having to burn a daily use of rage, which is what keeps it from being red, but still. There are better options.

Eagle: You can see up to a mile away from you at all times, and dim light doesn't give you disadvantage on Perception checks. These are both hilariously good scouting abilities.

Wolf: Seriously, did someone at WotC just say "you know what, to hell with it, let's just make barbarians the new rangers"? I'm not entirely sure if you retain this ability while you are using your beast sense ritual (that's probably an ask your DM question) but if you do, then this becomes sky blue.



Spirit Walker: So flavorful. I personally love commune spells, as they give me insight into the DM's lore and mindset, and the idea of a talking bear showing up out of nowhere to tell me things that a ranger would have to roll skill checks for is great.


Totemic Attunement.

Bear: This has to compete with Retaliation, and it does. If Path of the Berserker is the best damage dealer, Bear Totem Warrior is the best tank. This is similar a 3.5 crusader's ability, except it's disadvantage so it's way better.

Eagle: You can fly in short bursts while you rage. Essentially this equates to "I will jump into the air to hit that flying enemy, then land on the ground so if it wants me, it has to come get me!" Not as useful as a regular flight speed, but it fixes the problems melee has with flying enemies, which is good enough.

Wolf: You can use your bonus action to knock Large or smaller creatures prone when you hit them with a melee attack while you rage. There's no save, which is nice, but it's still nothing compared to the other two.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ability Scores

Strength: Literally half of the class features in a barbarian have to do with Strength. You want at least a 16 in this at level 1, but this is a stat that you should shoot to have 20 as soon as possible.

Dexterity: If you're not going to wear armor, you should try to have this up a little, as your tertiary stat. Dex saves are common, but you get advantage on them anyway. Put at least a 12 in here and move on. If you're a Dex-based barbarian, this is sky blue and you want to replace your Str with it.

Constitution: Rage no longer gives you hit points, so get that Con as high as possible. At least a 14 in here, preferably higher.

Intelligence: Wizards were too strong in 3.5. Let's nerf them by making Int the worst stat in the game! Seriously, for every class except wizard, bard, and arcane trickster/knowledge cleric/eldritch knight should have a "Please put your 8s here" sign in front of Int.

Wisdom: Other than Perception and Survival, and Wisdom saves, you're not going to use this at all. That said, Perception does come up pretty often. A 10 would be nice, but if you roll 2 8s, you roll 2 8s.

Charisma: Since there's a line in the skill section that specifically calls out using your muscles to intimidate can replace Charisma with Strength, you should dump this as well. But hey, the DC for your Intimidating Presence is Charisma-based (though if you're a Path of the Berserker, you're also basically immune to charm, which makes Charisma even worse for you). I'd personally throw a 10 here.



Races

http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/63/r169_457x256_11546_For_the_Horde_2d_fan_art_fantas y_orc_barbarian_picture_image_digital_art.jpg
The original barbarian. Note his orcish features. I swear, orcs better be in the next book.

Dwarves: You get a bonus to Con, darkvision, advantage on saves against poison and resistance to poison damage. A very good race.

Hill Dwarf: You get +1 Wis, which is meh, but you get more HP per level, on top of +2 Con. Really strong.

Mountain Dwarf: +2 Str, along with everything else a dwarf gets. Mountain Dwarf is one of the two best barbarian races, period. Don't listen to anyone who talks about variant humans, a barbarian needs Strength much more than he needs feats.

Elves: You get +2 Dex (meh), Darkvision, proficiency in Perception (which is great) and advantage on saves against charm/immunity to sleep. Plus you get that weird elf trance ability, so you can stay up for four hours watching everyone else in the group sleep like a creep. If you want to play a Dex barbarian, this is blue.

High Elf: Okay, elf is already a meh choice, but high elf gives you NOTHING that you want. +1 Int, proficiency with weapons you already have proficiency with, a cantrip based on a dump stat and an extra language. The least manly choice of all the races.

Wood Elf: +1 Wis, redundant weapon training, faster move speed and more pretending to be a ranger. If you wanted to be a ranger and decided to be a totem warrior barbarian instead, this is the race for you. A Dex-based barbarian would prefer this race.

Drow: Well, at least it's not high elf. +1 Cha, Superior Darkvision, Disadvantage on attack rolls in sunlight, some SLAs and some proficiencies. The orange rating is assuming you will be in the Underdark. If you're not, then this becomes red because disadvantage on all attack rolls cancels out your best class feature, Reckless Attack.

Halflings: Oh man, Lucky is just too damned good. Plus, even if you have disadvantage on all heavy weapons, greatclubs are two-handed and not heavy, and they only lose an average of 2 damage from the greataxe. Advantage on saves against being frightened is icing on the cake there.

Lightfoot Halflings: Charisma bonus is mildly useful, but hiding behind others is not manly at all.

Stout Halflings: +1 Con, advantage on saves against poison, resistance to poison damage. Beautiful. The only thing that keeps this from being sky blue is the disadvantage with heavy weapons.

Human/Variant Human: +1 to all stats is meh. +1 to Str and Con and a feat is slightly better, but it's not as awesome as it would be for other classes who have fewer ability scores they'd like to maximize. Variant human is an inherent risk for barbarians, and it involves a trade off between early offense and early defense. Abilities like Reckless Endurance and racial resistances keep your character alive to the mid level, as well as a higher Con bonus. Feats are much more offensively based, so getting one early would be good in certain situations (particularly if you are starting the game at a higher level where you don't need to worry about the early game). That said, barbarians really don't need more than one or two feats, and the sheer number of racial features you give up for a single proficiency and feat is a little underwhelming.

Dragonborn: +2 Str, +1 Cha, a breath weapon and resistance to an energy type. The save for your breath weapon is Con-based. It's an interesting idea, and I'd certainly like to see it happen. You also know how to speak Draconic, which is a nice feature all on its own.

Gnome: +2 Int, small size, advantage on saves against mental magic. Really nothing special here.

Forest Gnome: Bonus to Dex, illusions at will and speaking with animals, which barbarians get as a ritual. Yawn.

Rock Gnome: +1 Con (the only reason this is purple) and expertise on some History checks, which you aren't proficient with. The Tinker ability is awesome, but it's not for barbarians.

Half-Elf: +2 Cha, and +1 to Str/Con, along with advantage on saves against charm, immunity to sleep, darkvision and 2 skill proficiencies. It's not the best option, but it's a lot better than most. This is for anyone who wants to be a 'pretty' barbarian (aka not a dwarf or a half-orc).

Half-Orc: +2 Str, +1 Con. Darkvision, proficiency with Intimidate, improved crits that stack with Brutal Critical and a free daily use of Relentless Rage. Hilariously, all of a half-orc's racial abilities are just light versions of barbarian abilities, that stack with those abilities. So of course, the half-orc is by far one of the best choices for a barbarian in the game. It's got more abilities than a dwarf barbarian, but if you don't like the redundancy, go Mountain Dwarf instead.

Tiefling: Bonuses to Int and Cha, darkvision, resistance to fire, and a few cantrips. Fire is very common, but if you want resistance to fire be a red dragonborn instead. This race is bad, but it's not small like gnomes and Charisma is more useful than Dex so it's better than elves too.



Skills:

Animal Handling: You can speak with animals, so this isn't really necessary, unless you're playing a 'ranger', in which case this becomes blue.
Athletics: Athletics can be used for lots of cool combat tricks like shoving, grappling, tripping and climbing onto larger creatures. You get advantage with it while you rage, and with Indomitable Might you can't roll less than a 20. You won't regret proficiency with this skill.
Intimidate: What the hell is the point of walking around deflecting arrows with your pecs if people don't faint in fear at the sight of you?
Nature: Lore is always good.
Perception: Just get proficiency in it. Seriously, don't whine. Someone has to. Might as well be you. Plus, you get full actions during the surprise round.
Survival: Assuming you got one or both Intimidate and Perception from your race and background, Survival and Athletics are the skills you want after that.


Feats:

Feats are cool and shiny in 5E, but honestly the barbarian class is full of so much good that feats just don't improve it that much.

Alert - The bonus to init checks is nice, but you already have advantage on them. And creatures gain advantage on their attack rolls against you already due to Reckless Attack. The only real bonus here is that you can't be surprised, which stacks well with your normal actions during surprise rounds, but assuming you have proficiency in Perception and your party plays smart, you won't be surprised more than once or twice a week anyway, not worth burning a feat on.

Athlete: If you have an odd Strength score, go ahead and pick this up. Lots of nice little quirks to your physical activity.

Actor: You're not a face.

Charger: It gives damage, which is a decent use of your ASIs after you cap Str and Con, but only in situations where you couldn't reach the creature with your full move speed of 35'-45' (if you Dash + Attack instead of just move and attack you don't get your extra attack). If your DM likes putting lots of space between you and your enemies, take it.

Crossbow Expert: If you want to play a Dex barbarian, getting extra attacks with your crossbow is nice.

Defensive Duelist: If you're wielding a rapier and a shield, this feat works pretty well.

Dual Wielder: A bonus to AC (you don't wear armor anyway), two one-handed weapons (not as good as one two-handed weapon) and you can draw two weapons with the same action. No.

Dungeon Delver: Here we go. This is an actual use of a feat slot that I would consider after capping Str and Con. It increases your out of combat usefulness in a meaningful way. If you don't have someone to search for traps in the group, the person with the most hit points is designed to trigger them anyway, getting resistance to their damage makes you better at that.

Durable: I'm not sure what the second part of the feat refers to, must be something I'm not seeing in the rules. It sound good though.

Elemental Adept: You don't qualify.

Grappler: Grappling is a classic barbarian strategy. If you want to feel more like a barbarian, take this feat. It's not terrible, but you still can only grapple up to Large sized creatures.

Great Weapon Master: More damage. More attacks when you kill dudes. Good feat. Take it.

Healer: If you are playing a low-magic game or just a game where no one has healing magic, you are probably the character who can stand to burn a feat the easiest on this. True men help their team.

Heavily Armored: Gives you +1 Str and heavy armor. If, for some reason, you really want heavy armor, this is the way you get it. Personally, with all the ways you can reduce damage and soak it up, plus again, Reckless Attack heavily invalidating your AC, I don't see it as a great option. Especially since you also lose all your benefits of Rage while you're wearing it.

Heavy Armor Master: If you take Heavily Armored, go ahead and grab this. This does not stack with Rage (Thank you Mechaviking), but it does stack with Bear Totem barbarian. So it's a very specific combination and still eats up 2 feats to essentially give you slightly higher AC and DR 3.

Inspiring Leader: Once per long rest, you can spend ten minutes giving your team up to 25 temporary hit points. It's nice. But it's not that nice.

Keen Mind: Int is a dump stat.

Lightly Armored: You already have this.

Linguist: If you want the cipher feature, get someone else to take this.

Lucky: Why is this a thing? This is not advantage, so you can take this feat and then roll 3 attack rolls for when you really need to hit someone, or reduce the impact of the advantage against you by Reckless Attack when you really don't need to get hit.

Mage Slayer: Because casting spells isn't manly at all. This lets you stop paladins from Smiting you and prevents clerics from healing when you smash their faces.

Magic Initiate: Ugh. I guess this spell could technically give you decent options for when face-smashing isn't enough, like an attack cantrip.

Martial Adept: Battlemasters are cool. And an extra d6 to throw onto your attack/damage rolls isn't too bad.

Medium Armor Master: This is blue but only because there are some people out there who are paranoid about getting hit. If you want to play a Dex barbarian, this will give you lots of AC and help you scout better.

Mobile: Interesting feat. Makes you super fast. Not a good or bad option.

Moderately Armored: You have this.

Mounted Combatant: Free advantage on your attack rolls, period. You can tank for your mount, which you are awesome at doing. If you are a mounted barbarian, take this feat and become the scariest guy on a horse in the world.

Observant: If you are dead set on increasing your Int or Wis with a feat, this is the feat to take. +5 bonus to passive Perception checks is pretty good.

Polearm Master: This feat allows you to get a similar benefit to Frenzy (though with much lower base damage) without the risk of Exhaustion. If you're going Path of the Berserker and you expect to Frenzy a lot, this feat becomes black.

Resilient: +1 to a score. Proficiency in that score's saving throws. Works particularly well with Dex for Danger Sense.

Ritual Caster: It's a good feat, it gives you lots of out of combat utility, but it's completely dependent on the DM, which prevents it from being sky blue.

Savage Attacker: This feat is much better for barbarians than it is for fighters, seeing as barbarians only get two attacks instead of four, and a d12 can be very varied in its roll.

Sentinel: Combine this with Totem Warrior barbarian and make life hell for the guy who tries to hit your rogue instead of you. Give the rogue free advantage on attack rolls against him, impose disadvantage on the guy who attacks the rogue, and then spend a reaction to punch him in the face when he does attack the rogue.

Sharpshooter: If you are a Dex-based archer barbarian, this feat is as blue for you as GWM is for melee barbs.

Shield Master: This feat lets you shove as a bonus action. Unless you're in a Frenzy, you don't have many options for using your bonus action, and rage gives you advantage on Athletics checks. It actually turns a shield into a very offensive strategy for a barbarian.

Skilled: More out of combat usefulness.

Skulker: Eagle barbarians get the last feature for free, and Stealth isn't on your skill list. The part about missing with ranged weapons is kind of nice, but if you miss with your attack roll, you're screwed either way because you blew your surprise.

Spell Sniper: You don't qualify.

Tavern Brawler: It's a decent option, but not nearly as good as Great Weapon Master.

Tough: If you have to ask why this feat is awesome on barbarians, you clearly haven't read the title of this thread.

War Caster: You don't qualify.

Weapon Master: You already have proficiency with all weapons.

[Kyutaru]

Step 1: Choosing your Race

While dragonborn has nice resistances and decent strength upgrades, you should definitely select Zombie. Zombies may have a putrid odor and a ridiculously high dexterity penalty, but this is Dark Souls and Dragons so you don't care about non-strength stats. What you will get is Undead Fortitude, a racial ability that allows you to make a Constitution saving throw anytime you are reduced to less than 1 hp equal to 5+damage you just took. If you succeed, you survive with 1 hp.

This can go a VERY LONG WAY.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay and that's done! Let me know what you guys think!

[Giant2005]

I think you are seriously undervaluing Dexterity as an ability and overvaluing strength.
For example, using the standard array with your suggested abilities your strength Barbarian would wield a Greataxe, have a Str of 17 (+2 from Race), Dex 12, Con 14 for an AC of 13, a to-hit of +5 and damage of 1D12+5 (While raging). A Dex based Barb would wield a Rapier+Shield, have a Dex of 17 (+2 from Race), Con of 14 for an AC of 17, a to-hit of +5 and damage of 1D8+3.
Using this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10yg2FzwRl4RVi_h55MJ3okb4hV0TVe4fb_blArSOkMQ/edit#gid=1500553426) resource, you can easily determine that on average, the Strength Barbarian would inflict 5.6 points of damage per turn to the Dex Barb whereas the Dex Bard would inflict 5.1 points of damage to the strength Barb.
the strength Barb at level 1 has a minor advantage against the Dex Barb but that doesn't hold for long. When they get to level 8 and have enough ability score increases to bring the primary stat (Str or Dex) to 20, the Dex-based Barb really starts comparatively dominating with an average of 15.65 damage vs his strength-based counterpart's 14.35.

Essentially, a Dex-based Barbarian could beat the crap out of a Str-based Barbarian with relative ease (And has the advantage of multi-classing with Rogue much easier - which is an awesome combination). So any guide that throws away the concept of a Dex-based Barbarian while reinforcing the Str-based as the only real option isn't very accurate, or at the very least it sure isn't telling the entire story.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you have 20 Str and the Dex barb has 20 Dex, then their damage should be 1d12+7 vs 1d8+5. If you can't use Reckless Attack, and you can't use the Rage Damage bonus from Rage, then how on earth could he out damage the Dex barb?

Your spreadsheet doesn't answer the question. If, at level 5, I have a Str 20 barb who does 1d12+7 while raging, and a Dex 20 barb who does 1d8+5 while raging, there is no way the Dex barb is outdamaging the Str barb.

Edit: Oh, you're talking about a Dex barb versus a Str barb. I don't care about that. Why would two barbarians fight each other? I'm going off the assumption that you're fighting, you know, monsters. Like you would at a table. In that case, Dex doesn't help you do either of your jobs (tanking or DPS) better than a Str barb does.

[Mechaviking]

Also heavy armor mastery wont stack with rage since rage requires you to be wearing anything other than heavy armor(woe is me, I wanted a heavy armor barbarian).

That is unless you go Bearbarian in which case you sack the bonus damage and advantage on str checks for damage resistance, but still this is taking two feats to be a ****tier fighter(imo). Also you subtract 3 first then reduce by half meaning its only half as effective a feat(1.5 vs 3).

[odigity]

Seen guides pop up the last few weeks for rangers, wizards, clerics, paladins, and warlocks, but I don't think there's one for the 5E barbarian yet. Seeing as it's so straight forward, I feel like it might not be needed, but because it's so straight forward, it's also really easy for me to make it, so here you guys go:

There's one for 5e, but it's on the WotC forums: http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4138151

It's linked from the Guides thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491-Guides-Tables-and-other-useful-tools-for-5E-D-amp-D

However, it's always nice to have another guide, especially on these forums (much prettier and more accessible).

I'll go post in the Guides thread to add this guide to it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also heavy armor mastery wont stack with rage since rage requires you to be wearing anything other than heavy armor(woe is me, I wanted a heavy armor barbarian).

That is unless you go Bearbarian in which case you sack the bonus damage and advantage on str checks for damage resistance, but still this is taking two feats to be a ****tier fighter(imo). Also you subtract 3 first then reduce by half meaning its only half as effective a feat(1.5 vs 3).

Dang, I didn't see that line of text. Teach me to skim. I'll update the Guide, thanks for your help. :smallsmile:

[Giant2005]

Edit: Oh, you're talking about a Dex barb versus a Str barb. I don't care about that. Why would two barbarians fight each other? I'm going off the assumption that you're fighting, you know, monsters. Like you would at a table. In that case, Dex doesn't help you do either of your jobs (tanking or DPS) better than a Str barb does.

Yeah they will be fighting Monsters instead of each other in actual gameplay but having them fight each other is the only way to compare whether the trade of AC for damage is worth it in going Strength or Dex. The comparison tells us that trading that AC for more damage isn't worth it.
Basically if tankiness means nothing at all to you, then go ahead and go strength based but if you want are willing to sacrifice a little offense for a lot of defense, then go Dex based and be an overall more powerful character.

[NeoSeraphi]

Basically if tankiness means nothing at all to you, then go ahead and go strength based but if you want are willing to sacrifice a little offense for a lot of defense, then go Dex based and be an overall more powerful character.
An overall more powerful character when you're just taking half damage from everything? The damage I take based on what I fight is how I determine how powerful I am. If I'm dealing 30 damage and taking 15 regularly, then I'm doing fine. Your comparison assumes the barbarian is fighting a creature that resists his damage. That's not going to happen as often as the barbarian will resist the enemy's damage (which is always).

[Xetheral]

Yeah they will be fighting Monsters instead of each other in actual gameplay but having them fight each other is the only way to compare whether the trade of AC for damage is worth it in going Strength or Dex. The comparison tells us that trading that AC for more damage isn't worth it.
Basically if tankiness means nothing at all to you, then go ahead and go strength based but if you want are willing to sacrifice a little offense for a lot of defense, then go Dex based and be an overall more powerful character.

Reckless Attack only works with strength-based attacks. A dex-based barbarian is thus going to be hitting less often in addition to doing lower base damage.

[Giant2005]

An overall more powerful character when you're just taking half damage from everything? The damage I take based on what I fight is how I determine how powerful I am. If I'm dealing 30 damage and taking 15 regularly, then I'm doing fine. Your comparison assumes the barbarian is fighting a creature that resists his damage. That's not going to happen as often as the barbarian will resist the enemy's damage (which is always).

No I didn't even take damage resistance into account.
I'll come up with another example which might help you better (This time I will even take the resistance into account if that makes you feel better).
At level 8 an appropriate CR monster is the Werewolf (CR 3)
At level 8, the Strength-based Barb has Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14. = 1D12+7 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 13 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
At level 8, the Dexterity-based Barb has Dex 20, Con 14. = 1D82+5 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 19 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 4.45 damage per round, taking 18 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 23.8 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 18 rounds he will inflict an average of 428.4 damage before dropping.
Against the Dexterity-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 2.35 damage per round, taking 33 rounds to kill him. The Dexterity-based Barb inflicts an average of 16.6 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 33 rounds he will inflict an average of 547.8 damage before dropping.

Against enemies that are no threat, the difference doesn't really matter - both will finish their enemy without taking too much damage (Although the Dex-based guy will take less damage before killing his enemy than the Str-based guy) but against an actual challenging encounter, the Dex guy is more useful. The Dex guy survives longer and in doing so inflicts more damage than his strength-based counterpart.


Reckless Attack only works with strength-based attacks. A dex-based barbarian is thus going to be hitting less often in addition to doing lower base damage.

I didn't take that into consideration because that ability kind of sucks. Here is what the Strength-based Barb looks like against the Werewolf if he uses it:
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 6.3675 damage per round, taking 13 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 28.05 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 13 rounds he will inflict an average of 364.65 damage before dropping.
Basically, a Strength-based Barb is not only weaker than the Dexterity-based Barb by using that ability but he is also considerably weaker than a Strength-based Barb that isn't using that ability. It is rubbish.

[Pramxnim]

Reckless Attack only works with strength-based attacks. A dex-based barbarian is thus going to be hitting less often in addition to doing lower base damage.

Yep, and at that point you're just playing a Monk without Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows, with more hp and a shield.


No I didn't even take damage resistance into account.
I'll come up with another example which might help you better (This time I will even take the resistance into account if that makes you feel better).
At level 8 an appropriate CR monster is the Werewolf (CR 3)
At level 8, the Strength-based Barb has Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14. = 1D12+7 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 13 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
At level 8, the Dexterity-based Barb has Dex 20, Con 14. = 1D82+5 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 19 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 4.45 damage per round, taking 18 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 23.8 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 18 rounds he will inflict an average of 428.4 damage before dropping.
Against the Dexterity-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 2.35 damage per round, taking 33 rounds to kill him. The Dexterity-based Barb inflicts an average of 16.6 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 33 rounds he will inflict an average of 547.8 damage before dropping.

Against enemies that are no threat, the difference doesn't really matter - both will finish their enemy without taking too much damage (Although the Dex-based guy will take less damage before killing his enemy than the Str-based guy) but against an actual challenging encounter, the Dex guy is more useful. The Dex guy survives longer and in doing so inflicts more damage than his strength-based counterpart.

You're making several wrong assumptions about the two Barbarians here. The STR Barbarian, knowing he has low DEX, is going to equip the best medium armor he can find appropriate for his level, which in this case means he has a Breastplate, giving him 16 AC. The Werewolf also has 12 AC and should be hit 85% of the time by a Barbarian not using Reckless Attack, or 97.75% of the time if he does attack recklessly (stats taken from this site (http://onlinedungeonmaster.com/2012/05/24/advantage-and-disadvantage-in-dd-next-the-math/)). You've also given the Dex Barb a shield and neglected to assume that a STR Barbarian would consider using a shield and a one-handed weapon. If equipped with a shield, the STR Barbarian has 18 AC, so he has traded 1 AC for +2 to damage while raging and Reckless Attack, a very important tool that improves the STR Barb's damage per round significantly against foes with higher AC. Eventually, the DEX Barbarian can have up to 24 AC at level 20, and the STR Barbarian caps at 19 AC without feats or magic items (17 AC with no shield), but for most of their adventuring career, the STR Barb is not that far behind in terms of AC while being much more likely to hit his opponents when he needs to.

As for this particular example, let's assume the STR Barb uses a two-handed weapon that does 1d12+7 damage and 16 AC.
While using Recklessly Attack, he does an average of 26.4 damage per round, while taking an average of 4.53 damage per round from the Werewolf.
If not using Reckless Attack, he does an average of 22.95 damage per round, while taking an average of 2.93 damage per round from the Werewolf.

Meanwhile, the DEX Barb doesn't have the option of using Reckless Attack and doesn't enjoy the Rage damage bonus.
He does 16.15 damage per round, while taking an average of 1.95 damage per round from the Werewolf.

The Werewolf has +4 to hit bonus. It makes 2 attacks per round, dealing 6 and 7 average damage respectively.
It needs a 12 to hit the STR Barb, so its chance to hit is:

45% with no advantage. 45% of 13 is 5.85. Divide that by 2 gets us 2.93
69.75% with advantage. 69.75% of 13 is 9.07. Divide that by 2 gets us 4.53

It needs a 15 to hit the DEX Barb, so its chance to hit is 30%. 30% of 13 is 3.9. Divide that by 2 gets us 1.95. That's the complete breakdown of the damage the Barbarian and Werewolf would be dealing to each other.


Note that the STR Barbarian doesn't take that much more damage than the DEX one, while doling out significantly more damage on his own. I haven't even factored in the increased crit chance (9.75% compared to 5%) that the STR Barb enjoys, nor the benefits of Brutal Critical at higher levels, nor the fact that Reckless Attack allows for more effective usage of the Great Weapon Master feat.

All in all, the DEX Barb gets a higher initiative, slightly higher AC for a large portion of the adventuring career and better resistance to area of effect spells. It loses the use of a strong class feature in Reckless Attack as well as the Rage damage bonus and makes poor use of the Brutal Critical class feature.

The STR Barb enjoys a much higher damage potential, and fully utilizes its class abilities. Unless your campaign happens to allow the DEX Barb to pick up a Belt of Giant Strength later on, he will never deal as much damage as the STR Barb.

[NeoSeraphi]

No I didn't even take damage resistance into account.
I'll come up with another example which might help you better (This time I will even take the resistance into account if that makes you feel better).
At level 8 an appropriate CR monster is the Werewolf (CR 3)
At level 8, the Strength-based Barb has Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14. = 1D12+7 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 13 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
At level 8, the Dexterity-based Barb has Dex 20, Con 14. = 1D82+5 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 19 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 4.45 damage per round, taking 18 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 23.8 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 18 rounds he will inflict an average of 428.4 damage before dropping.
Against the Dexterity-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 2.35 damage per round, taking 33 rounds to kill him. The Dexterity-based Barb inflicts an average of 16.6 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 33 rounds he will inflict an average of 547.8 damage before dropping.

Against enemies that are no threat, the difference doesn't really matter - both will finish their enemy without taking too much damage (Although the Dex-based guy will take less damage before killing his enemy than the Str-based guy) but against an actual challenging encounter, the Dex guy is more useful. The Dex guy survives longer and in doing so inflicts more damage than his strength-based counterpart.

Your analysis does not take into account the Great Weapon Master feat (which a strength based barbarian will likely have by level 8), or the difference in accuracy from Reckless Attack. Not to mention the awesome boost from crits.

And yes, there will be no difference the majority of the time. Against a powerful enemy, you may take less damage as a Dex barbarian, but you deal much more reliable damage as a Str barbarian. Reckless Attack outweighs every one of your arguments, in my opinion. If I can choose between having advantage on 36 attacks over 18 rounds and not having advantage on 66 attacks in 33 rounds, I'd rather have advantage. Additionally, advantage means more of my successful attacks will be critical strikes than the Dex barb, and my crits deal more damage anyway (an extra 1d12 over 1d6) and if we take this one level higher arbitrarily, then the damage from rage goes up by +1 and the damage disparity from crits becomes much higher (2d12 instead of 2d6).

[Giant2005]

Reckless Attack only works with strength-based attacks. A dex-based barbarian is thus going to be hitting less often in addition to doing lower base damage.

I didn't take that into consideration because that ability kind of sucks. Here is what the Strength-based Barb looks like against the Werewolf if he uses it:
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 6.3675 damage per round, taking 13 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 28.05 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 13 rounds he will inflict an average of 364.65 damage before dropping.
Basically, a Strength-based Barb is not only weaker than the Dexterity-based Barb by using that ability but he is also considerably weaker than a Strength-based Barb that isn't using that ability. It is rubbish.


Reckless Attack outweighs every one of your arguments, in my opinion.

See above - Reckless Attack isn't an ability that either type of Barbarian should be using (Unless you have some kind of rider effect that needs applied like a knockdown or something).
I'm not really trying to convince you that Dexterity-based Barbarians are superior to Strength-based (Although mechanically they are), all I am trying to say is that they are far from a detrimental playstyle and your guide shouldn't be discounting them regardless of your own preferences.

[NeoSeraphi]

I didn't take that into consideration because that ability kind of sucks. Here is what the Strength-based Barb looks like against the Werewolf if he uses it:
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 6.3675 damage per round, taking 13 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 28.05 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 13 rounds he will inflict an average of 364.65 damage before dropping.
Basically, a Strength-based Barb is not only weaker than the Dexterity-based Barb by using that ability but he is also considerably weaker than a Strength-based Barb that isn't using that ability. It is rubbish.

...If the creature lives to attack him, yes. But there are presumably three other people helping you kill this target. In that case, Reckless Attack gains much more usefulness, because you can negate the penalty by reliably dealing your damage and having your party finish it off before its turn.

[Giant2005]

...If the creature lives to attack him, yes. But there are presumably three other people helping you kill this target. In that case, Reckless Attack gains much more usefulness, because you can negate the penalty by reliably dealing your damage and having your party finish it off before its turn.

Sure but if the encounter is that easy, then it doesn't really matter what kind of Barbarian you are or what class at all really. You are going to win regardless - the only variable is how much of a drain on your resources (HP) the fight will be. The Dexterity-based Barb will lose less resources in the fight than the Strength-based Barb would. If the Fight is challenging enough that the Strength-based Barb runs the risk of dying, the Dex-based Barb is not only safer but will deal more damage by out-lasting his Strength-based alternative.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm not really trying to convince you that Dexterity-based Barbarians are superior to Strength-based (Although mechanically they are), all I am trying to say is that they are far from a detrimental playstyle and your guide shouldn't be discounting them regardless of your own preferences.
Dexterity does not help a barbarian's class features (other than Danger Sense). It has no bearing in common lore, it goes against a barbarian's features (Rage, Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical), so...no. I'm not going to encourage players to play a Dex-based barbarian when they could be playing Dex-based rogues or Dex-based fighters and not using half their class features.

[Giant2005]

Dexterity does not help a barbarian's class features (other than Danger Sense). It has no bearing in common lore, it goes against a barbarian's features (Rage, Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical), so...no. I'm not going to encourage players to play a Dex-based barbarian when they could be playing Dex-based rogues or Dex-based fighters and not using half their class features.

Then you are willfully letting your personal bias prevent you from outlining and giving proper merit to all of the available options. That downgrades this guide from being a "guide about Barbarians" to a guide about "how NeoSeraphi thinks Barbarians should be played".
The former is obviously a more useful tool than the latter.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the dexterity Barbarian is dang near perfect. It only has two relevant stats (dexterity and constitution) and they are going to be maxed out. The dex Barbarian can take more feats as a result of having less need to boost stats (normal barbarian need strength, con and some dex.) They are much hardier (Starting AC of 20 at level 1, ends at AC 26 without magic items) and with crossbow feats can do fair damage.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then you are willfully letting your personal bias prevent you from outlining and giving proper merit to all of the available options. That downgrades this guide from being a "guide about Barbarians" to a guide about "how NeoSeraphi thinks Barbarians should be played".
The former is obviously a more useful tool than the latter.

A guide about barbarians should be about how to utilize your class features to your advantage, not "okay, so here is the class, now ignore all of it".

Let me ask you something then. If the character gains no benefit from the Rage feature, other than resistance to damage, and doesn't gain any benefit from Reckless Attack, then what is the point of even playing the barbarian? At that point, you might as well just dip barbarian for the resistance and go fighter to pick up a Fighting Style and more ASIs/features that you can actually use.

[Pramxnim]

No I didn't even take damage resistance into account.
I'll come up with another example which might help you better (This time I will even take the resistance into account if that makes you feel better).
At level 8 an appropriate CR monster is the Werewolf (CR 3)
At level 8, the Strength-based Barb has Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14. = 1D12+7 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 13 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
At level 8, the Dexterity-based Barb has Dex 20, Con 14. = 1D82+5 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 19 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 4.45 damage per round, taking 18 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 23.8 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 18 rounds he will inflict an average of 428.4 damage before dropping.
Against the Dexterity-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 2.35 damage per round, taking 33 rounds to kill him. The Dexterity-based Barb inflicts an average of 16.6 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 33 rounds he will inflict an average of 547.8 damage before dropping.

Against enemies that are no threat, the difference doesn't really matter - both will finish their enemy without taking too much damage (Although the Dex-based guy will take less damage before killing his enemy than the Str-based guy) but against an actual challenging encounter, the Dex guy is more useful. The Dex guy survives longer and in doing so inflicts more damage than his strength-based counterpart.

You're making several wrong assumptions about the two Barbarians here. The STR Barbarian, knowing he has low DEX, is going to equip the best medium armor he can find appropriate for his level, which in this case means he has a Breastplate, giving him 16 AC. The Werewolf also has 12 AC and should be hit 85% of the time by a Barbarian not using Reckless Attack, or 97.75% of the time if he does attack recklessly (stats taken from this site (http://onlinedungeonmaster.com/2012/05/24/advantage-and-disadvantage-in-dd-next-the-math/)). You've also given the Dex Barb a shield and neglected to assume that a STR Barbarian would consider using a shield and a one-handed weapon. If equipped with a shield, the STR Barbarian has 18 AC, so he has traded 1 AC for +2 to damage while raging and Reckless Attack, a very important tool that improves the STR Barb's damage per round significantly against foes with higher AC. Eventually, the DEX Barbarian can have up to 24 AC at level 20, and the STR Barbarian caps at 19 AC without feats or magic items (17 AC with no shield), but for most of their adventuring career, the STR Barb is not that far behind in terms of AC while being much more likely to hit his opponents when he needs to.

As for this particular example, let's assume the STR Barb uses a two-handed weapon that does 1d12+7 damage and 16 AC.
While using Recklessly Attack, he does an average of 26.4 damage per round, while taking an average of 4.53 damage per round from the Werewolf.
If not using Reckless Attack, he does an average of 22.95 damage per round, while taking an average of 2.93 damage per round from the Werewolf.

Meanwhile, the DEX Barb doesn't have the option of using Reckless Attack and doesn't enjoy the Rage damage bonus.
He does 16.15 damage per round, while taking an average of 1.95 damage per round from the Werewolf.

The Werewolf has +4 to hit bonus. It makes 2 attacks per round, dealing 6 and 7 average damage respectively.
It needs a 12 to hit the STR Barb, so its chance to hit is:

45% with no advantage. 45% of 13 is 5.85. Divide that by 2 gets us 2.93
69.75% with advantage. 69.75% of 13 is 9.07. Divide that by 2 gets us 4.53

It needs a 15 to hit the DEX Barb, so its chance to hit is 30%. 30% of 13 is 3.9. Divide that by 2 gets us 1.95. That's the complete breakdown of the damage the Barbarian and Werewolf would be dealing to each other.


Note that the STR Barbarian doesn't take that much more damage than the DEX one, while doling out significantly more damage on his own. I haven't even factored in the increased crit chance (9.75% compared to 5%) that the STR Barb enjoys, nor the benefits of Brutal Critical at higher levels, nor the fact that Reckless Attack allows for more effective usage of the Great Weapon Master feat.

All in all, the DEX Barb gets a higher initiative, slightly higher AC for a large portion of the adventuring career and better resistance to area of effect spells. It loses the use of a strong class feature in Reckless Attack as well as the Rage damage bonus and makes poor use of the Brutal Critical class feature.

The STR Barb enjoys a much higher damage potential, and fully utilizes its class abilities. Unless your campaign happens to allow the DEX Barb to pick up a Belt of Giant Strength later on, he will never deal as much damage as the STR Barb.

Reposting because the thread advanced quite a lot while I was typing this up. I agree with NeoSeraphi that playing a Dex-based Barb is sort of going against the grain of what a Barbarian feels like. Not that it's not a viable build, but it has its tradeoffs, and those are significant enough to not make it the obvious best choice for anyone playing a Barbarian.

You also seem to have quite the bias against Reckless Attack. It is a fantastic class feature, since advantage is a very powerful thing in 5e. Your attacks will enjoy a significant boost in accuracy, and it allows you to do what most high DPR builds in 4e did, which is critfishing. The Barbarian even has a class feature built in to take advantage of Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical. How can you say the feature is useless?

[Giant2005]

A guide about barbarians should be about how to utilize your class features to your advantage, not "okay, so here is the class, now ignore all of it".

Let me ask you something then. If the character gains no benefit from the Rage feature, other than resistance to damage, and doesn't gain any benefit from Reckless Attack, then what is the point of even playing the barbarian? At that point, you might as well just dip barbarian for the resistance and go fighter to pick up a Fighting Style and more ASIs/features that you can actually use.

Dipping Fighter wouldn't be a terrible idea (I think dipping 3 levels of Champion for the expanded crit range would be smart for the Strength-Barb too) but Dex-Barbs get a fair amount out of Barb levels too. Dex Barbs get more from Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense and Feral Instinct than their Strength counterparts do and if they are ranged fighters like TVtyrant suggested, they get more out of Fast Movement too. Almost all of the other abilities benedit the Dex-based Barbarian in the same way as it does the Str-based one, they also tend to offer more than the Fighter class would (Other than a l1,2 or 3 level dip) the only class with enough synergy that I would consider dropping a lot of Barb levels for would be Rogue.


You're making several wrong assumptions about the two Barbarians here. The STR Barbarian, knowing he has low DEX, is going to equip the best medium armor he can find appropriate for his level, which in this case means he has a Breastplate, giving him 16 AC. The Werewolf also has 12 AC and should be hit 85% of the time by a Barbarian not using Reckless Attack, or 97.75% of the time if he does attack recklessly (stats taken from this site (http://onlinedungeonmaster.com/2012/05/24/advantage-and-disadvantage-in-dd-next-the-math/)). You've also given the Dex Barb a shield and neglected to assume that a STR Barbarian would consider using a shield and a one-handed weapon. If equipped with a shield, the STR Barbarian has 18 AC, so he has traded 1 AC for +2 to damage while raging and Reckless Attack, a very important tool that improves the STR Barb's damage per round significantly against foes with higher AC. Eventually, the DEX Barbarian can have up to 24 AC at level 20, and the STR Barbarian caps at 19 AC without feats or magic items (17 AC with no shield), but for most of their adventuring career, the STR Barb is not that far behind in terms of AC while being much more likely to hit his opponents when he needs to.

These are all fair points but don't credit me with making those assumptions - those are the assumptions made by the guide and I went with it. Your alternative ideas just reinforce the fact that this guide was made with too many preconceptions about what a Barbarian should be.


You also seem to have quite the bias against Reckless Attack. It is a fantastic class feature, since advantage is a very powerful thing in 5e. Your attacks will enjoy a significant boost in accuracy, and it allows you to do what most high DPR builds in 4e did, which is critfishing. The Barbarian even has a class feature built in to take advantage of Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical. How can you say the feature is useless?

It isn't entirely useless, it is just inadvisable in most situations (As the math shows a few posts up). As you said, advantage is incredibly powerful - so giving it to your enemies is usually a really bad idea. It is even written in a way to maximize the penalties - all attacks against you have advantage but only your attacks during your turn have advantage (Meaning that all of the enemies attacks against you have advantage but only your attacks and bonus attack have advantage, your reactions do not). There are times where it makes sense to use but they are few and far between. It makes sense to use the ability when you have more attacks than the combined total attacks of the enemies int he encounter and when there is only one enemy and a single hit will kill him (denying him his advantage by virtue of being dead). In a standard encounter, using that ability will just have you walking away from the fight with less HP than you would if you didn't use the ability at all.

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, then I updated the guide with some tips and alternatives for Dex-based barbarians.

[Xetheral]

I didn't take that into consideration because that ability kind of sucks. Here is what the Strength-based Barb looks like against the Werewolf if he uses it:
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 6.3675 damage per round, taking 13 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 28.05 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 13 rounds he will inflict an average of 364.65 damage before dropping.
Basically, a Strength-based Barb is not only weaker than the Dexterity-based Barb by using that ability but he is also considerably weaker than a Strength-based Barb that isn't using that ability. It is rubbish.

See above - Reckless Attack isn't an ability that either type of Barbarian should be using (Unless you have some kind of rider effect that needs applied like a knockdown or something).
I'm not really trying to convince you that Dexterity-based Barbarians are superior to Strength-based (Although mechanically they are), all I am trying to say is that they are far from a detrimental playstyle and your guide shouldn't be discounting them regardless of your own preferences.

I'm going to disagree. From my perspective, Reckless Attack is one of the best abilities in the game. On-demand advantage (or disadvantage-cancelling) is incredibly potent. It provides a frequently-large bonus to hit (accordingly increasing the potential benefit from GWM) and it nearly doubles the chance of a crit (and rider effects on a crit). Also, using Reckless Attack completely negates any enemy advantage-gaining mechanic, and lets you effectively ignore an arbitrarily large number of disadvantage-imposing effects. Not having to worry about advantage and disadvantage opens up a wealth of tactical options since it effectively lets you ignore the DM's primary method for mechanically accounting for the drawback to "risky" ideas. (Although the flip side of this is having less to gain mechanically as a potential payoff, since you already have advantage.)

Additionally, because the raging barbarian takes half damage and has so many HP to begin with, attacking the Barbarian will frequently be an extremely poor tactical choice. This makes the downside to Reckless Attack function almost like a poor-man's sentinel, incentivizing enemies to attack the tank.

I don't have the Werewolf stats in front of me, so I can't comment directly on your math. However, damage-inflicted-until-inevitable-defeat is a very unusual metric, and one I'm having a hard time seeing the relevance of. If your numbers are correct, then damage-per-round goes up from 23.8 to 28.05 and damage-taken-per-round goes up from 4.45 to 6.37. That's a very worthwhile tradeoff in absolute terms, and a reasonable one in proportional terms. I see no reason to assume as you do that the fight would last until the Werewolf kills the Barbarian.

[Feldarove]

{scrubbed}

[NeoSeraphi]

{scrubbed}

It is a legitimate way to play the character, and while it seems a bit odd, there's no reason to not include it as an option in the guide.

[Giant2005]

I'm going to disagree. From my perspective, Reckless Attack is one of the best abilities in the game. On-demand advantage (or disadvantage-cancelling) is incredibly potent. It provides a frequently-large bonus to hit (accordingly increasing the potential benefit from GWM) and it nearly doubles the chance of a crit (and rider effects on a crit). Also, using Reckless Attack completely negates any enemy advantage-gaining mechanic, and lets you effectively ignore an arbitrarily large number of disadvantage-imposing effects. Not having to worry about advantage and disadvantage opens up a wealth of tactical options since it effectively lets you ignore the DM's primary method for mechanically accounting for the drawback to "risky" ideas. (Although the flip side of this is having less to gain mechanically as a potential payoff, since you already have advantage.)
These are good points and other reasons in which the ability is useful! If your enemy has advantage anyway, there is no reason not to use the ability and canceling disadvantage is more advantageous than giving yourself advantage, so if you have disadvantage, using the ability would probably be beneficial too.


I don't have the Werewolf stats in front of me, so I can't comment directly on your math. However, damage-inflicted-until-inevitable-defeat is a very unusual metric, and one I'm having a hard time seeing the relevance of.
It is relevant because there are two ways to end an encounter (Without fleeing or whatever) you can achieve victory or defeat. Unless you are just making throwaway characters than you don't care about, the only metric worth mentioning is which is better at not being defeated because as long as you aren't defeated, you are victorious. If the encounter is strong enough that defeat is an actual threat, then the Dex-based Barb has a better chance of victory by being able to deal more damage before his defeat condition is met.


If your numbers are correct, then damage-per-round goes up from 23.8 to 28.05 and damage-taken-per-round goes up from 4.45 to 6.37. That's a very worthwhile tradeoff in absolute terms, and a reasonable one in proportional terms. I see no reason to assume as you do that the fight would last until the Werewolf kills the Barbarian.
No. Just no. There is no way that anyone could consider a 17.86% increase in outgoing damage at the expense of a 43.15% increase in incoming damage a worthy trade. By increasing incoming damage by significantly more than outgoing damage, you are lowering your chances of meeting the victory condition.


Alright, then I updated the guide with some tips and alternatives for Dex-based barbarians.

Good man - I'll keep quiet now :smallbiggrin:.

[Demonic Spoon]

I think you're too harsh on Frenzy. An extra bonus action attack with, say, a greataxe is a huge advantage. It's not something you would use every fight, or even necessarily every day, but particularly tough fights can be made a lot easier. If you only do it once in a day, the penalty is disadvantage on ability checks which is harmful but tolerable if you don't do it at the beginning of the day.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think you're too harsh on Frenzy. An extra bonus action attack with, say, a greataxe is a huge advantage. It's not something you would use every fight, or even necessarily every day, but particularly tough fights can be made a lot easier. If you only do it once in a day, the penalty is disadvantage on ability checks which is harmful but tolerable if you don't do it at the beginning of the day.

Disadvantage on Perception means more getting surprised, which means less use of Feral Instinct (and also disadvantage on initiative which cancels out the other part of Feral Instinct). I don't know, voluntarily imposing disadvantage on all your skill checks seems like a horrible penalty to just get extra attacks for one minute.

[Rallicus]

I've found barbarian to be a pretty boring class. Theoretically it's pretty good but so is an eldritch blasting Warlock... except that said Warlock can do a ton more things other than EB. Meanwhile the barbarian can... rage and hit things. The weirdest thing is that totem barbs could have been awesome if they were made similar to 3e totemists, but instead they added 3 incredibly boring aspects.

I feel for my barbarian player.

[Felvion]

I'd like to add some things you've missed.
1)Grappling. It's actually a strength check now and guess... You have adv when you rage! This kinda makes athletics a must imho.
2)Shove. Combine it with grapple. Awesome results. Large may be the limit but once i did this to a dragon!
3)At early levels, before you skyrocket your con, some armor would help if you need to tank more. My experience is that you won't need to!
4)Since the dmg os out, i'd like to see an item section too.
Overall, good job man, you got the feeling right!

[Xetheral]

It is relevant because there are two ways to end an encounter (Without fleeing or whatever) you can achieve victory or defeat. Unless you are just making throwaway characters than you don't care about, the only metric worth mentioning is which is better at not being defeated because as long as you aren't defeated, you are victorious. If the encounter is strong enough that defeat is an actual threat, then the Dex-based Barb has a better chance of victory by being able to deal more damage before his defeat condition is met.

Except that there is no need to maximize damage before meeting the "defeat condition". All that is required is killing the opponents with sufficient damage... there is no value in dealing extra damage beyond that.


No. Just no. There is no way that anyone could consider a 17.86% increase in outgoing damage at the expense of a 43.15% increase in incoming damage a worthy trade.

That's indeed frequently a worthy trade. Consider:

The absolute values matter just as much as (if not more than) the proportional ones, and here you're talking about an increase of 4.25 damage dealt per round in exchange for taking an extra 1.92 damage per round. Shorter combats decreases the likelihood of enemy crits, and reduced enemy burst damage vastly decreases the risk of party fatalities. That extra damage is being taken by the tank, rather than even more damage being taken by someone squishier. Ultimately, if the extra damage doesn't kill you or use up vitally-needed healing resources, then taking extra damage doesn't matter. On the other hand, dealing extra damage can kill an opponent faster, leaving more actions free to attack other opponents or attend to other objectives.

By increasing incoming damage by significantly more than outgoing damage, you are lowering your chances of meeting the victory condition.

Not necessarily. One's chance of victory does indeed depend on both the rate one can deal damage to the opponent as well as the rate one takes damage. However, because both values only matter in comparison to the HP total of each character and the available healing, it is by no means universally true that an increase in the ratio of damage dealt/damage taken improves one's odds of victory.

[Rokku]

I think you're undervaluing Shield Master, especially for a tank. Consider: knocking people down is a strength (athletics) check. You get advantage on those. Then everyone gets advantage because the guy's on his ass. He's also not *going* anywhere. It's good normally, but with Rage, it's great.

[Slipperychicken]

For the 3rd level wolf totem power, I think it's worth mentioning that its usefulness is positively correlated with the number of other melee characters in your party. It's worthless if you're the only melee guy (nobody gets the free advantage), but awesome if you have 4 or 5 melee guys huddling around you for free advantage.

Also, you didn't mention Athletics' utility for combat maneuvers. It's used for Shove, Shove Aside, Grapple, Climbing-a-Bigger-Creature, plus most improvised actions you can think of. Barbarians rule at Strength(Athletics) checks because they get automatic advantage on strength checks while raging, and will have big strength scores anyway. Taking Athletics as a skill is practically a no-brainer, even for barbarians who aren't really focused on combat maneuvers, because its such a small investment that will really pay off when they decide to use it. Similarly, dipping rogue or bard for Expertise is a no-brainer for any barbarian who wants to do a lot of combat maneuvers.

For Reckless Attack: I don't see anything about its usefulness for disarm attempts (attack with free advantage -> enemy drops weapon -> use "free" object interaction to pick the weapon up yourself, thereby denying it to the enemy), or how its usefulness decreases when a lot of enemies are attacking you. If you give too many opponents advantage against you, that can go very badly despite your resistance to damage. Is that monster's big fancy weapon causing you problems? No problem! Just take his weapon for yourself (or use another attack action to throw it away). Same goes for mcguffins and magic accessories like wands and staves. If someone wants to take his weapon back? Good luck to them, because you have both advantage and a great modifier on your opposing roll.

[Feldarove]

It is a legitimate way to play the character, and while it seems a bit odd, there's no reason to not include it as an option in the guide.

I got warned for flaming because of calling the dex barbarian thought rubbish. So, Im sorry. I totally meant it as a joke. I thought it was obvious by using a silly word like rubbish. I was trying to debase a dex based barbarian for flavor, never actual mechanics. I think the mechanics actually look really awesome . And it just hurts me on the inside that it might outshine a strength barbarian ....and you know, hurting people hurt people. Once again, sorry if I upset anyone.

[WickerNipple]

And it just hurts me on the inside that it might outshine a strength barbarian .

It can't completely outshine the strength barbarian in all ways, but it's certainly good enough to be better in many situations.

Part of the reason I consider Barbarian such a terribly designed class is it IS entirely possible to ignore much of the class and still excel.

[Hyena]

Please consider changing orange colour to purple. In a lot of guides, orange is used as "mandatory".

[NeoSeraphi]

Please consider changing orange colour to purple. In a lot of guides, orange is used as "mandatory".

Okay then.


For the 3rd level wolf totem power, I think it's worth mentioning that its usefulness is positively correlated with the number of other melee characters in your party. It's worthless if you're the only melee guy (nobody gets the free advantage), but awesome if you have 4 or 5 melee guys huddling around you for free advantage.

Good point, let me update that.



Also, you didn't mention Athletics' utility for combat maneuvers. It's used for Shove, Shove Aside, Grapple, Climbing-a-Bigger-Creature, plus most improvised actions you can think of. Barbarians rule at Strength(Athletics) checks because they get automatic advantage on strength checks while raging, and will have big strength scores anyway. Taking Athletics as a skill is practically a no-brainer, even for barbarians who aren't really focused on combat maneuvers, because its such a small investment that will really pay off when they decide to use it. Similarly, dipping rogue or bard for Expertise is a no-brainer for any barbarian who wants to do a lot of combat maneuvers.

I will mention the first part of Athletics but I intentionally didn't mention anything about multiclassing (as a section) because I have no experience with 5E multiclassing, so I don't know how good dipping is at a table.



For Reckless Attack: I don't see anything about its usefulness for disarm attempts (attack with free advantage -> enemy drops weapon -> use "free" object interaction to pick the weapon up yourself, thereby denying it to the enemy), or how its usefulness decreases when a lot of enemies are attacking you. If you give too many opponents advantage against you, that can go very badly despite your resistance to damage. Is that monster's big fancy weapon causing you problems? No problem! Just take his weapon for yourself (or use another attack action to throw it away). Same goes for mcguffins and magic accessories like wands and staves. If someone wants to take his weapon back? Good luck to them, because you have both advantage and a great modifier on your opposing roll.

As far as I can tell the only way to Disarm is with the Battlemaster fighter maneuver. Even if you take Martial Adept you can only do it once per short/long rest.


I think you're undervaluing Shield Master, especially for a tank. Consider: knocking people down is a strength (athletics) check. You get advantage on those. Then everyone gets advantage because the guy's on his ass. He's also not *going* anywhere. It's good normally, but with Rage, it's great.

Yeah, for some reason when I read that feat I thought the "within 5' of you" text meant that you could only use the "shove 5' away" part of shove. I'll update, good catch.

[person29]

Im AFB but there is a way to disarm in the DMG. I believe it takes the part of an attack (but not attack action) and is opposed str-athletics checks I want to say. Someone with their book handy can correct me.

[Tvtyrant]

It can't completely outshine the strength barbarian in all ways, but it's certainly good enough to be better in many situations.

Part of the reason I consider Barbarian such a terribly designed class is it IS entirely possible to ignore much of the class and still excel.

Really, because this is why I think it is great. It is a class which can be made in completely different ways and still work, but it is not overpowered in any of them.

[Slipperychicken]

As far as I can tell the only way to Disarm is with the Battlemaster fighter maneuver. Even if you take Martial Adept you can only do it once per short/long rest.


It's in the DMG, page 271. Here's the first paragraph of that section.


A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon
or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker
makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength
(Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the
attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage
or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's in the DMG, page 271. Here's the first paragraph of that section.

Okay, updating.

[NeoSeraphi]

For Reckless Attack: I don't see anything about its usefulness for disarm attempts (attack with free advantage -> enemy drops weapon -> use "free" object interaction to pick the weapon up yourself, thereby denying it to the enemy), or how its usefulness decreases when a lot of enemies are attacking you. If you give too many opponents advantage against you, that can go very badly despite your resistance to damage. Is that monster's big fancy weapon causing you problems? No problem! Just take his weapon for yourself (or use another attack action to throw it away). Same goes for mcguffins and magic accessories like wands and staves. If someone wants to take his weapon back? Good luck to them, because you have both advantage and a great modifier on your opposing roll.

But...if you disarm someone with your attack, and then they can't hit you back...you'll end your rage.

[Demonic Spoon]

Disadvantage on Perception means more getting surprised, which means less use of Feral Instinct (and also disadvantage on initiative which cancels out the other part of Feral Instinct). I don't know, voluntarily imposing disadvantage on all your skill checks seems like a horrible penalty to just get extra attacks for one minute.


It's a 50% damage increase after 5, and double before 5. It can also be combined with reckless attack. 2 attacks/round at level 3 with advantage is very strong.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's a 50% damage increase after 5, and double before 5. It can also be combined with reckless attack. 2 attacks/round at level 3 with advantage is very strong.

Yes, and in exchange for that you A) can't use it the rest of the day unless you want to halve your speed (whereas totems are all day) and B) you get disadvantage on all skill checks and ability checks for the rest of the day.

[Slipperychicken]

But...if you disarm someone with your attack, and then they can't hit you back...you'll end your rage.

The quoted text explicitly says the disarm is a weapon attack. That satisfies the requirement for continuing the rage. Also, the opponent can always try to use unarmed strikes or natural weapons.

Additionally, from PHB 194:

If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack.

The disarm uses an attack roll, therefore it's a weapon attack.

[NeoSeraphi]

The quoted text explicitly says the disarm is a weapon attack. That satisfies the requirement for continuing the rage.


If you say so. Seems very open to DM fiat to me (especially since it's in the DMG, not the PHB) but this is a handbook so I have to go by RAW.

[Pramxnim]

Multiclassing is very simple in 5e, since they got rid of the clunky BAB system and instead rely on proficiency bonuses that scale with character level. The Barbarian makes a good dip class because of Reckless Attack, but it actually is horrible when it comes to dipping in other classes because of Rage's spellcasting restriction. Note that you really want to hit the power spike that Extra Attack gives at level 5, so it is often not recommended to multiclass before then.

With that in mind, I'll list the pros and cons of the 3 completely spell-less classes it can dip into:

The class brings with it too many restrictions (has to be unarmored, can't use a shield, must use monk weapons, limited resource pool) to properly make use of its class features.

You get a bonus action unarmed attack that adds your rage bonus damage, but the same thing can be obtained by using a reach weapon and taking the Polearm Master feat. Also, the monk's Ki pool is too limited if you're just dipping.

Verdict: Multiclassing into Monk is a trap.

A 1-level Fighter dip grants you a mediocre heal that is good for early levels but doesn't scale. 2 levels grant you an extra action once every short rest, but slows down your other class features. The extra action is not worth the two level investment, and since Barbarian and Fighter overlap on so many things, you don't gain a whole lot for such a small investment.

The only way to get a substantial gain is to invest 3 or more levels into Fighter. Champion is probably the best choice for the expanded critical range, since Eldritch Knight is an auto-no due to spellcasting and Battlemaster abilities become mediocre later on.

You could go the full 4 levels to not lose out on a feat, but often you slow your Barbarian progression too much for it to be worth it.

Verdict: At least 2 levels for Action Surge, maybe 3 for Champion archetype.


Ah, the rogue. This unlikely multiclassing choice is actually surprisingly good for a Barbarian, even if you don't use a finesse weapon for Sneak Attack. For this choice, you're sacrificing some Hp and either some weapon damage dice or sneak attack damage dice.

By switching to a rapier to take advantage of sneak attack, you lose up to 2.5 damage per attack, and more on crits, but you gain +3.5 damage per round per sneak attack dice. If you plan to invest more than 2 levels in Rogue, you'll end up using a Rapier to take advantage of Sneak Attack damage dice.

Here are some notable features you gain from dipping into Rogue:

1 level: You gain Expertise, a skill proficiency, proficiency in Thieves' Tools and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage. It's not worth it to switch to a finesse weapon yet, but Expertise in Athletics is a huge boon for Barbarians who desire more battlefield control through Grappling and Shoving people. You can use a versatile weapon to not lose too much damage while not grappling.

2 levels: Cunning Action lets you speed across the battlefield like a madman, and is in general a very powerful feature to have. You could also gain proficiency and Expertise in Stealth to make a sneaky Barbarian, which is a fun concept to explore.

3 levels: +2d6 Sneak Attack damage and a Roguish Archetype. Arcane Trickster is actually okay for out of combat utility, and Thief does provide a climb speed and an extra use for Cunning Action, but Assassin is the archetype that will let you turn your sneaky Barbarian into a death machine against surprised foes. Even if you don't surprise enemies, Assassinate gives advantage on attack rolls against enemies that act after you on the first turn of combat, and you can go first reasonably often thanks to Feral Instinct.

4 levels: This level allows you to not lose out on your normal feat progression.

5 levels: Uncanny Dodge makes you even tankier against big attacks, and +3d6 sneak attack damage is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can trigger it whenever you want with Reckless Attack.

[numerek]

A 1-level Fighter dip grants you a mediocre heal that is good for early levels but doesn't scale. 2 levels grant you an extra action once every short rest, but slows down your other class features. The extra action is not worth the two level investment, and since Barbarian and Fighter overlap on so many things, you don't gain a whole lot for such a small investment.

The only way to get a substantial gain is to invest 3 or more levels into Fighter. Champion is probably the best choice for the expanded critical range, since Eldritch Knight is an auto-no due to spellcasting and Battlemaster abilities become mediocre later on.

You could go the full 4 levels to not lose out on a feat, but often you slow your Barbarian progression too much for it to be worth it.

Verdict: At least 2 levels for Action Surge, maybe 3 for Champion archetype.


I'm not sure why you didn't mention fighting styles, gwf is an obvious one for barbarians, with the great axe it adds .833 to average damage. But dueling is even better for a sword and board barbarian, since it gives starting rage bonus to damage even when not raging. There really isn't a bad fighting style if it goes with your character concept. Also if you start with fighter that gives heavy armor proficiency which works with bear totem.

[Pramxnim]

I'm not sure why you didn't mention fighting styles, gwf is an obvious one for barbarians, with the great axe it adds .833 to average damage. But dueling is even better for a sword and board barbarian, since it gives starting rage bonus to damage even when not raging. There really isn't a bad fighting style if it goes with your character concept. Also if you start with fighter that gives heavy armor proficiency which works with bear totem.

I totally forgot about Fighting Styles, but yes Great Weapon Fighting is a shoe-in for Barbarians, and the other ones are good as well. Unfortunately, Heavy Armor proficiency is wasted on a Barbarian, because his Rage requires that he wear no more than medium armor.

[numerek]

I totally forgot about Fighting Styles, but yes Great Weapon Fighting is a shoe-in for Barbarians, and the other ones are good as well. Unfortunately, Heavy Armor proficiency is wasted on a Barbarian, because his Rage requires that he wear no more than medium armor.

They don't require not wearing heavy armor, they just grant those 3 bullet points in benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor, no other rage related ability requires not wearing heavy armor. Though the fast movement also requires not wearing heavy armor.

[MaxWilson]

RE: Frenzy. Greater Restoration removes one level of exhaustion.

[NeoSeraphi]

RE: Frenzy. Greater Restoration removes one level of exhaustion.

Okay, so it can be partially alieved with a 5th level spell slot available to only 2/12 classes, costs 100 gp in material components, doesn't come online until 6 levels after you get Frenzy, yeah, no. Still red. Will update the description though.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, so it can be partially alieved with a 5th level spell slot available to only 2/12 classes, costs 100 gp in material components, doesn't come online until 6 levels after you get Frenzy, yeah, no. Still red. Will update the description though.

Agree on the verdict. There are better ways to get a bonus action attack anyway, especially since you're already planning on taking GWM.

[MeeposFire]

Multiclassing is very simple in 5e, since they got rid of the clunky BAB system and instead rely on proficiency bonuses that scale with character level. The Barbarian makes a good dip class because of Reckless Attack, but it actually is horrible when it comes to dipping in other classes because of Rage's spellcasting restriction. Note that you really want to hit the power spike that Extra Attack gives at level 5, so it is often not recommended to multiclass before then.

With that in mind, I'll list the pros and cons of the 3 completely spell-less classes it can dip into:

The class brings with it too many restrictions (has to be unarmored, can't use a shield, must use monk weapons, limited resource pool) to properly make use of its class features.

You get a bonus action unarmed attack that adds your rage bonus damage, but the same thing can be obtained by using a reach weapon and taking the Polearm Master feat. Also, the monk's Ki pool is too limited if you're just dipping.

Verdict: Multiclassing into Monk is a trap.

A 1-level Fighter dip grants you a mediocre heal that is good for early levels but doesn't scale. 2 levels grant you an extra action once every short rest, but slows down your other class features. The extra action is not worth the two level investment, and since Barbarian and Fighter overlap on so many things, you don't gain a whole lot for such a small investment.

The only way to get a substantial gain is to invest 3 or more levels into Fighter. Champion is probably the best choice for the expanded critical range, since Eldritch Knight is an auto-no due to spellcasting and Battlemaster abilities become mediocre later on.

You could go the full 4 levels to not lose out on a feat, but often you slow your Barbarian progression too much for it to be worth it.

Verdict: At least 2 levels for Action Surge, maybe 3 for Champion archetype.


Ah, the rogue. This unlikely multiclassing choice is actually surprisingly good for a Barbarian, even if you don't use a finesse weapon for Sneak Attack. For this choice, you're sacrificing some Hp and either some weapon damage dice or sneak attack damage dice.

By switching to a rapier to take advantage of sneak attack, you lose up to 2.5 damage per attack, and more on crits, but you gain +3.5 damage per round per sneak attack dice. If you plan to invest more than 2 levels in Rogue, you'll end up using a Rapier to take advantage of Sneak Attack damage dice.

Here are some notable features you gain from dipping into Rogue:

1 level: You gain Expertise, a skill proficiency, proficiency in Thieves' Tools and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage. It's not worth it to switch to a finesse weapon yet, but Expertise in Athletics is a huge boon for Barbarians who desire more battlefield control through Grappling and Shoving people. You can use a versatile weapon to not lose too much damage while not grappling.

2 levels: Cunning Action lets you speed across the battlefield like a madman, and is in general a very powerful feature to have. You could also gain proficiency and Expertise in Stealth to make a sneaky Barbarian, which is a fun concept to explore.

3 levels: +2d6 Sneak Attack damage and a Roguish Archetype. Arcane Trickster is actually okay for out of combat utility, and Thief does provide a climb speed and an extra use for Cunning Action, but Assassin is the archetype that will let you turn your sneaky Barbarian into a death machine against surprised foes. Even if you don't surprise enemies, Assassinate gives advantage on attack rolls against enemies that act after you on the first turn of combat, and you can go first reasonably often thanks to Feral Instinct.

4 levels: This level allows you to not lose out on your normal feat progression.

5 levels: Uncanny Dodge makes you even tankier against big attacks, and +3d6 sneak attack damage is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can trigger it whenever you want with Reckless Attack.


Rogue is fantastic with the barbarian (very conan actually). Damage can be excellent though I prefer a heavier rogue emphasis and a group of 5 barb levels for the extra attack. One thing I did not see is that putting expertise in athletics combos with your rage and shield master to make bonus action near automatically successful shoves. Hard to beat an advantage+double prof bonus+high str bonus.

[The Shadowdove]

I respect the Manliness of barbarian!

I'm starting my first 5e as a player next weekend, and we roll instead of pointbuy.


My dm watched me roll stats for our next campaign and just sweared when I told him I'm going barbarian instead of warlock.

He threw his hands up and went to help our cleric make their character sheet when I told him I am going to use a Portable Ram as my main weapon, and a Greataxe when I feel like it.


Sooooo.... following your colorful advice

Half-orc who refuses to wear a shirt.

str: 16+2 (because 18 easily becomes 20)
dex: 15 (for rolling around and looking cool while dodging fireblasts)
Con: 18+1 (for early con)
wis: 11 (because ...why not run in and smash things?)
Int: 13 (because we know a thing or two)
Cha: 14 (For scaring away ogres while flexing)


Totem Spirit(Bear)--I want to laugh at things that hit me

Aspect(Bear)--I dont need stealth bonuses, I want to break things and look buff doing it

Attunement(Wolf)--I want to knock things down for free. Then beat them up.


Feats:

4: Great Weapon
8: Sentinel
12: Tough
16: Con+Dex +1
19:str+2


I think this will make me Man enough to let Ogre clubs bounce off of my pectoral muscles while I laugh.

Grant me your suggestions, oh Enlightened one.

what should I do to be more man!?!?

[NeoSeraphi]

That build does indeed look pretty manly, though I would take the Str bonus at level 4 and then continue your build as you've described it. Since the Strength boost gives you accuracy while Great Weapon Master takes it away, it's better for you to take the accuracy boost first and the damage boost later (when things are easier to kill but harder to hit early, and things are easier to hit but harder to kill later).

Additionally, you should totally get a pet ram, and train the ram to break down doors when you tell it to, and then beast sense into the ram while it's breaking down doors.

[numerek]

Feats:

4: Great Weapon
8: Sentinel
12: Tough
16: Con+Dex +1
18:str+2
20:dex+2

Ability Score Increase levels are 4, 8, 12, 16, 19. Add 6 and 14 if fighter, add 10 if rogue. Never 18 or 20 and this means only 5 feats for barbarians.

[numerek]

He threw his hands up and went to help our cleric make their character sheet when I told him I am going to use a Portable Ram as my main weapon, and a Greataxe when I feel like it.

I don't know what you have worked out with your dm but portable ram is not a weapon, if you wanted it say that it is a weapon it would probably be a greatclub(actually it would be over 3 greatclubs by weight), the die of which is only a d8. If you are agreeing that it is not a weapon but an improvised weapon then you don't get your proficiency bonus regardless of the damage dice.

Alternatively, I think a maul is just as manly and does 2d6, you can even fluff that you ram things with it.

[silveralen]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.

Which also leads to polearm master, with barbarian's flat damage bonuses the ability to make up to two additional attacks per round (always active bonus action+another potential reaction) gives it some real mileage.

I'm also not sure why dex barbarian is even being discussed in the guide, it seems to be trying to be an attempt to play a monk.... badly. Being hard to kill from HP and Dex sounds great till you realize lot of casters can beat your melee damage with cantrips. (2d8+10<3d10+5). Sure you are hard to kill... which won't matter because your enemies will ignore you due to your complete inability to threaten anything in a meaningful way. Maybe if your DM tends to just accept you are the "tank" and therefor all the monsters charge you it works, but if the enemies use strategy or are played intelligently, you get targeted after everyone else in the party is down.

[Mechaviking]

Multiclassing is very simple in 5e, since they got rid of the clunky BAB system and instead rely on proficiency bonuses that scale with character level. The Barbarian makes a good dip class because of Reckless Attack, but it actually is horrible when it comes to dipping in other classes because of Rage's spellcasting restriction. Note that you really want to hit the power spike that Extra Attack gives at level 5, so it is often not recommended to multiclass before then.

With that in mind, I'll list the pros and cons of the 3 completely spell-less classes it can dip into:

The class brings with it too many restrictions (has to be unarmored, can't use a shield, must use monk weapons, limited resource pool) to properly make use of its class features.

You get a bonus action unarmed attack that adds your rage bonus damage, but the same thing can be obtained by using a reach weapon and taking the Polearm Master feat. Also, the monk's Ki pool is too limited if you're just dipping.

Verdict: Multiclassing into Monk is a trap.

A 1-level Fighter dip grants you a mediocre heal that is good for early levels but doesn't scale. 2 levels grant you an extra action once every short rest, but slows down your other class features. The extra action is not worth the two level investment, and since Barbarian and Fighter overlap on so many things, you don't gain a whole lot for such a small investment.

The only way to get a substantial gain is to invest 3 or more levels into Fighter. Champion is probably the best choice for the expanded critical range, since Eldritch Knight is an auto-no due to spellcasting and Battlemaster abilities become mediocre later on.

You could go the full 4 levels to not lose out on a feat, but often you slow your Barbarian progression too much for it to be worth it.

Verdict: At least 2 levels for Action Surge, maybe 3 for Champion archetype.


Ah, the rogue. This unlikely multiclassing choice is actually surprisingly good for a Barbarian, even if you don't use a finesse weapon for Sneak Attack. For this choice, you're sacrificing some Hp and either some weapon damage dice or sneak attack damage dice.

By switching to a rapier to take advantage of sneak attack, you lose up to 2.5 damage per attack, and more on crits, but you gain +3.5 damage per round per sneak attack dice. If you plan to invest more than 2 levels in Rogue, you'll end up using a Rapier to take advantage of Sneak Attack damage dice.

Here are some notable features you gain from dipping into Rogue:

1 level: You gain Expertise, a skill proficiency, proficiency in Thieves' Tools and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage. It's not worth it to switch to a finesse weapon yet, but Expertise in Athletics is a huge boon for Barbarians who desire more battlefield control through Grappling and Shoving people. You can use a versatile weapon to not lose too much damage while not grappling.

2 levels: Cunning Action lets you speed across the battlefield like a madman, and is in general a very powerful feature to have. You could also gain proficiency and Expertise in Stealth to make a sneaky Barbarian, which is a fun concept to explore.

3 levels: +2d6 Sneak Attack damage and a Roguish Archetype. Arcane Trickster is actually okay for out of combat utility, and Thief does provide a climb speed and an extra use for Cunning Action, but Assassin is the archetype that will let you turn your sneaky Barbarian into a death machine against surprised foes. Even if you don't surprise enemies, Assassinate gives advantage on attack rolls against enemies that act after you on the first turn of combat, and you can go first reasonably often thanks to Feral Instinct.

4 levels: This level allows you to not lose out on your normal feat progression.

5 levels: Uncanny Dodge makes you even tankier against big attacks, and +3d6 sneak attack damage is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can trigger it whenever you want with Reckless Attack.



So let me get this straight:

Barbarian 5/Rogue 5/Fighter 2

That´s Conan the Barbarian...Right?

[Gwendol]

So let me get this straight:

Barbarian 5/Rogue 5/Fighter 2

That´s Conan the Barbarian...Right?

That's pretty much it. Perhaps a bit too heavy on the rogue side of things, but to each his own (Conan).
I also agree that the DEX-barbarian, while not devoid of merit, will be lacking offensive power. Specifically, grappling, disarming, and shoving; three areas in which the STR-barbarian reigns supreme, are not being fully developed. These are three very potent tactical options, besides smashing face, that shouldn't be neglected.

[numerek]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.

Which also leads to polearm master, with barbarian's flat damage bonuses the ability to make up to two additional attacks per round (always active bonus action+another potential reaction) gives it some real mileage.

I'm also not sure why dex barbarian is even being discussed in the guide, it seems to be trying to be an attempt to play a monk.... badly. Being hard to kill from HP and Dex sounds great till you realize lot of casters can beat your melee damage with cantrips. (2d8+10<3d10+5). Sure you are hard to kill... which won't matter because your enemies will ignore you due to your complete inability to threaten anything in a meaningful way. Maybe if your DM tends to just accept you are the "tank" and therefor all the monsters charge you it works, but if the enemies use strategy or are played intelligently, you get targeted after everyone else in the party is down.

2d8+10 which is 19 vs 3d10+5 which is 21.5 (which is only achievable by draconic sorcerer and evocation wizard) yes warlock can do 3d10+15 with 30' push back which is 31.5 but that is their thing and even with armor of agathys the warlock isn't going to be as effective as a tank as the dexbarian is trying to be especially since the warlock would need to crossbow feat to use eldritch blast effectively in melee and then with point buy he would have to be variant human to have 20 charisma at 11th level. Also those ranged spell casters can kite the creatures while the dexbarian keeps getting in their way and getting attacks of opportunity against the creatures that are using strategy and intelligence.

[silveralen]

2d8+10 which is 19 vs 3d10+5 which is 21.5 (which is only achievable by draconic sorcerer and evocation wizard) yes warlock can do 3d10+15 with 30' push back which is 31.5 but that is their thing and even with armor of agathys the warlock isn't going to be as effective as a tank as the dexbarian is trying to be especially since the warlock would need to crossbow feat to use eldritch blast effectively in melee and then with point buy he would have to be variant human to have 20 charisma at 11th level. Also those ranged spell casters can kite the creatures while the dexbarian keeps getting in their way and getting attacks of opportunity against the creatures that are using strategy and intelligence.

First off, the caster comparison was to illustrate how hilariously bad a dex barbarian is at damage. If your best attack can be compared to a non warlock cantrip, you are barely even a factor in combat.

Yes, with his AoO each round the barbarian barely manages to edge out a dragon sorcerer throwing fire bolt, but loses to a warlock. That's.... so underwhelming it hurts. That's literally his max damage at lvl 20 losing to a lvl 11 warlock's cantrip. I don't know how you expect such a character to accomplish anything, literally just a sack of hit points that contributes almost no damage.

The dex Barbarian can't tank. Period. He is a complete non threat with his AoO unless he grabs sentinel, which makes his damage more laughable as he delays ability increases. If his attack hits, he deals 9.5 damage max. That's right, a dex barbarian's max AoO damage is under 10 points. A strength barbarian actually gives enemies incentive to hit him, yet he is likely to survive, and an enemy trying to move away could take 15-30 points of damage in the process. That's how you actually tank, you make enemies want to stay near and punish them for trying to get away. Dex barbarian is useless for that, like most things.

I'll say it again, dex barbarian is useless. Full stop. He has no purpose, no useage, no reason to exist. His damage is pathetic, he can't hold aggro, his only upside is being hard to kill, which simply increases the time it takes a TPK to occur once his teammates get overwhelmed. He literally contributes nothing another class wouldn't offer more of.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.
The benefits of these feats are not nearly as useful at level 1-3 before you get a feat at level 4. Taking -5 to attack rolls at that level is a good way to ensure you miss. Polearm master is nice sure, but I'd rather have..you know...features.

Let's compare: GWM is something you can get at any time. So is Polearm Master. In exchange for this, you give up +1 to Str and Con for a Mountain Dwarf, or +1 Str for a half-orc. So in essence, you're trading +1 to two stats for a feat...how is this a good thing? This is what you could do with the feat slot later anyway, but higher stats is just plain better early because it gives you more accuracy and more HP, period.

Not to mention, the racial features cannot be replicated by taking a feat. I could either get an extra feat by giving up stats (which I will then have to make up later by spending a feat slot to cap my stats) or I could get advantage on saves against poison, resistance to poison damage, extra critical damage, Reckless Endurance (which is probably the second best racial ability in the book honestly, behind Lucky).

Is Variant Human good? Sure. But seeing as you want your stats capped as soon as possible, and then you might want two or three feats to augment your power...it's really not sky blue. It's barely blue.

[Yoroichi]

I respect the Manliness of barbarian!

I'm starting my first 5e as a player next weekend, and we roll instead of pointbuy.


My dm watched me roll stats for our next campaign and just sweared when I told him I'm going barbarian instead of warlock.

He threw his hands up and went to help our cleric make their character sheet when I told him I am going to use a Portable Ram as my main weapon, and a Greataxe when I feel like it.


Sooooo.... following your colorful advice

Half-orc who refuses to wear a shirt.

str: 16+2 (because 18 easily becomes 20)
dex: 15 (for rolling around and looking cool while dodging fireblasts)
Con: 18+1 (for early con)
wis: 11 (because ...why not run in and smash things?)
Int: 13 (because we know a thing or two)
Cha: 14 (For scaring away ogres while flexing)


Totem Spirit(Bear)--I want to laugh at things that hit me

Aspect(Bear)--I dont need stealth bonuses, I want to break things and look buff doing it

Attunement(Wolf)--I want to knock things down for free. Then beat them up.


Feats:

4: Great Weapon
8: Sentinel
12: Tough
16: Con+Dex +1
19:str+2


I think this will make me Man enough to let Ogre clubs bounce off of my pectoral muscles while I laugh.

Grant me your suggestions, oh Enlightened one.

what should I do to be more man!?!?

Those are great rolls!!

I wouldnt pick up GFW so early, since it is kinda risky. you should wait for yours second attack at lvl5 before gfw, imo.

Also tough,i dont really like, it gives you 40hp at lvl 20, which is not a big deal, you might even benefit more from a dex increase for a +1 to AC,or a boost to your saves.

Personally i have picked up tavern brawler because it is so jard to use your bonus action as a totem barb,then again im going eagle on lvl14 so what do i know :)

I d recommend taking the lucky feat, i picked it up an d next session our DM banned it from play so im goona go with GFW now, lucky can help with GFW, with saves and with anything else you can think of

[Gwendol]

Tavern brawler is good for grappling, hence good for the barbarian.

[silveralen]

The benefits of these feats are not nearly as useful at level 1-3 before you get a feat at level 4. Taking -5 to attack rolls at that level is a good way to ensure you miss. Polearm master is nice sure, but I'd rather have..you know...features.

Let's compare: GWM is something you can get at any time. So is Polearm Master. In exchange for this, you give up +1 to Str and Con for a Mountain Dwarf, or +1 Str for a half-orc. So in essence, you're trading +1 to two stats for a feat...how is this a good thing? This is what you could do with the feat slot later anyway, but higher stats is just plain better early because it gives you more accuracy and more HP, period.

Not to mention, the racial features cannot be replicated by taking a feat. I could either get an extra feat by giving up stats (which I will then have to make up later by spending a feat slot to cap my stats) or I could get advantage on saves against poison, resistance to poison damage, extra critical damage, Reckless Endurance (which is probably the second best racial ability in the book honestly, behind Lucky).

Is Variant Human good? Sure. But seeing as you want your stats capped as soon as possible, and then you might want two or three feats to augment your power...it's really not sky blue. It's barely blue.

The problem is half orc and and mountain dwarf don't guarantee you a higher effective stat in your strength. If you use point buy or standard, and if you roll which is better depends entirely on if you roll even or odd. Plus, you trade one stat point now, rather than two later.

None of those racial features is very good. Resistance to poison damage is rolled into bear totem rage if you really need it, and redundant if you go that route. Advantage on poison saves... you have prof in con saves with a +2 at least, unless your DM has a hard on for poison using monsters, that's a horrible waste. Extra critical damage is strictly worse as a rider than the cleave portion of GWM. Reckless endurance.... you mean the thing you get at lvl 11 anyways, only restricted to once per long rest? Which is actually kinda funny, those "special" things that can't be replicated... are totally replicated by the class itself already, or shown up by feats.

Variant human does not slow down capping of your main stat at all for 2/3 forms of character creation, and only does 50% of the time for the third. So that's 5/6 times where a half orc or dwarf caps their strength at the same level as the human. It slows down capping your secondary stat... which isn't a problem. You probably aren't going to cap con. You probably shouldn't be trying to. There are a lot of better things to be doing with your ability increases than HP, the resilient feats or lucky being the biggest contenders even if you look at it from a pure defensive perspective.

Unless I roll stats and my highest is a 14, 16, or 18, I'm going human for barbarian. It's just hard to find anything that compares.

Now, if we were talking about a charisma or intelligence magic user? The value of feats go down, the usefulness of the racial abilities goes up. Half elf i amazing, and gnome has permanent advantage on saving throws versus magic Honestly, the last feature makes the race viable across a ton of combinations, even things like eldritch knight or arcane trickster. Dex based character? Lucky is a strong racial ability that's not even the majority of what halfing offers. The fact you put reckless endurance near that same level, when the hill dwarf's HP bonus results in a similar toughness increase, is truly odd to me.

There are races with really strong racial abilities. Those are not mountain dwarf or half orc. They are halfling and gnome.

[NeoSeraphi]

Reckless endurance.... you mean the thing you get at lvl 11 anyways, only restricted to once per long rest? Which is actually kinda funny, those "special" things that can't be replicated... are totally replicated by the class itself already, or shown up by feats.

Damn straight I mean that. I get it at level 11, which is HALFWAY THROUGH THE CLASS. If the game lasts that long!

I'd much rather not die once per day than get a feat 3 levels earlier.

[silveralen]

Damn straight I mean that. I get it at level 11, which is HALFWAY THROUGH THE CLASS. If the game lasts that long!

I'd much rather not die once per day than get a feat 3 levels earlier.

Really? Odd to say the least.

You trade a +10 damage and free attack on a crit, which only get better when you realize how constant advantage really benefits both aspects due to the lower cost of the attack penalty and higher chance of a crit, for the ability to take one extra hit, of one damage, per day?

Same with polearm master, you get a great extra reaction attack and an extra attack every round that benefit from your rage damage bonus and high strength, which beats occasionally taking a single extra hit to put down.

The best defense for barbarian is a good offense, and being able to put down enemies quickly and efficiently prevents the barbarian from getting into bad situations a lot of times. I've only seen the barbarian in my group drop twice, and it wouldn't have made any difference if he had reckless endurance, he was in situations where he was overwhelmed by enemies pretty heavily. Whereas, I've seen his extra damage and attacks from GWM really shift the way the battle goes, often ending the fight 1-2 turns before it normally would've, greatly increasing everyone's chance of survival. The chance of reckless endurance providing that sort of gain, when it is going to keep you upright an extra turn at best, is unlikely.

The class feature is much better, giving you 2-3 extra hits on average per short rest. That's a significant increase in longevity, reckless endurance is not.

It's a mediocre ability that becomes redundant by mid levels, those feats are useful at every single level. Not to mention, even if you want to build for survivability you'd be better grabbing resiellent (wis) to cover one of your bigger weaknesses.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't play a half Orc barbarian, but claiming it is the best choice optimization wise is wrong. At the very least the two choices are equally viable, and I'm inclined to think half Orc should not be sky blue.

[Mechaviking]

Also as I mentioned in another barbarian thread, the Polearm master feat basically gives you two versions out of 4 features of the berserker barbarian and you can get them at lvl 1 if your a human which is insane value.

I know this since I played a Nature cleric with Shillelagh and polearm master and I was doing comparable damage as a monk at early levels, which means it is INSANE for a Barbarian.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll echo the Polearm Master love. It is the best feat for damage in the game, especially once you start factoring in the (many) extra OAs as long as you position yourself right. My variant human fighter is loving it, and fighter isn't even as well suited to it as Paladin or Barbarian.

To be honest 5e shares a lot of qualities with 3e. One of these things is, if you want to be a real tank, you have to threaten a large area and have brutal OAs. Polearm Master + Sentinel: Accept no substitute. If you want at least one of these feats ASAP (and you do), Variant Human can actually cap out STR faster than anyone else, as implied by silveralen's analysis.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm not convinced. I'll see if I can get some tabletop experience with Polearm Master, but I don't want to take GWM before 8, usually if ever. The only time I'd want to take GWM at 4th is if I rolled really high and I don't want it at 1st ever.

[silveralen]

I'm not convinced. I'll see if I can get some tabletop experience with Polearm Master, but I don't want to take GWM before 8, usually if ever. The only time I'd want to take GWM at 4th is if I rolled really high and I don't want it at 1st ever.

Wait, not take GWM as a barbarian? Ever? You always take it as barbarian. Unless you are shield user I suppose.

The thing is, you want it eventually, and human variant is actually the best way to get it by level 8 without delaying an ability increase.

Unless your highest roll is a 16 or 18, human variant maxes strength at the same moment a half Orc or Dwarf would. For point buy and standard array, a variant human never delays their main stat, only a secondary stat. The +2 isn't actually a boon to your main stat, what it offers is the ability to set you stat to 14 and bump to 16, freeing up points/higher bonuses for other stats. A half orc or mountain dwarf's strength is rarely going to beat a humans if both are properly optimized, but they likely have a higher con or dex.

Polearm master is a different story, being amazing from lvl 1 onward. You gain what amounts to duel wielding mechanically, plus a reaction attack that triggers fairly consistently. Plus, it can be later boosted by mixing it with GWM. Three attacks with a flat damage bonus of 20 each is a great start for damage (rage+strength+GWM) and constant advantage is what makes it work so well.

An optimized barbarian build that isn't beserker is likely going to include polearm and great weapon master eventually, and human variant is the best way to do so for 2/3 character generation method.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait, not take GWM as a barbarian? Ever? You always take it as barbarian. Unless you are shield user I suppose.

The thing is, you want it eventually, and human variant is actually the best way to get it by level 8 without delaying an ability increase.
I said, I'll take it by 8, not usually by 4, and I'd never want it at 1.



Unless your highest roll is a 16 or 18, human variant maxes strength at the same moment a half Orc or Dwarf would. For point buy and standard array, a variant human never delays their main stat, only a secondary stat. The +2 isn't actually a boon to your main stat, what it offers is the ability to set you stat to 14 and bump to 16, freeing up points/higher bonuses for other stats. A half orc or mountain dwarf's strength is rarely going to beat a humans if both are properly optimized, but they likely have a higher con or dex.
Yes...and if you only want one or two feats, having the higher ability score is mechanically better. The advantage on saves against poison is very good. Yes, you should be able to make a save against poison, but not getting screwed by the dice is better than getting screwed by the dice, especially against an ability that is basically designed to kill characters.

And, I just heard back from a table that my friends are running. Two of their 4 players are now dead after their first encounter at level 2. Crits. That's why I value Reckless Endurance. Go ahead and keep theorycrafting, I'm speaking from experience. People die, both due to poor positioning and bad luck. Not dying because a DM rolled a 20 is much more valuable to me than Polearm Master. Can't get extra attacks if you're dead.



Polearm master is a different story, being amazing from lvl 1 onward. You gain what amounts to duel wielding mechanically, plus a reaction attack that triggers fairly consistently. Plus, it can be later boosted by mixing it with GWM. Three attacks with a flat damage bonus of 20 each is a great start for damage (rage+strength+GWM) and constant advantage is what makes it work so well.

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.

[silveralen]

Yes...and if you only want one or two feats, having the higher ability score is mechanically better. The advantage on saves against poison is very good. Yes, you should be able to make a save against poison, but not getting screwed by the dice is better than getting screwed by the dice, especially against an ability that is basically designed to kill characters.

And, I just heard back from a table that my friends are running. Two of their 4 players are now dead after their first encounter at level 2. Crits. That's why I value Reckless Endurance. Go ahead and keep theorycrafting, I'm speaking from experience. People die, both due to poor positioning and bad luck. Not dying because a DM rolled a 20 is much more valuable to me than Polearm Master. Can't get extra attacks if you're dead.

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.

I mean, let's look at it from "how often will this occur" stance. Feat I use every round in combat, advantage versus poison that might come up in one encounter per session if my DM really really really loves poison.

Reckless endurance wouldn't have helped unless the encounter ended the turn after the crits. They would've had one HP left. Anything would have knocked them down. That's why it's crap. Unless you mean the critical pushed them so far into negative HP they instantly died, in which case reckless endurance literally does nothing. It only helps if you aren't killed outright but are reduced to negative HP, ie prevents knockouts not death. Read the racial ability, if the crit dealt enough to outright kill them, they were still dead, and trotting around with one HP rarely helps at all.

Being able to kill an extra goblin per turn, or consistently kill a goblin every turn rather than one every other turn, cuts down on the damage your party takes dramatically. It ends combat entire rounds faster. That's a huge deal for survival, low lvl pcs cannot slug things out over multiple rounds.

No, the orc or dwarf actually has a lower/the same con/dex and the same feats at high levels, as the human only payed half an ability increase for his feat. Look at standard array.

Human
STR: 15+1=16
CON: 14+0=14
DEC: 13+1=14

H/Orc
STR: 14+2=16
CON: 15+1=16
DEX: 13+0=13

Eventually the human gets a +2 con and the half orc gets a feat, and the human has a higher dexterity.

With point buy, the difference is non existent at high levels... sort of

Human:
STR:15+1=16
CON: 15+1= 16
DEX: 14+0=14
INT: 8+0=8
WIS: 10+0=10
CHA: 8+0= 8

H/Orc:
STR:14+2=16
CON: 15+1= 16
DEX: 14+0=14
INT: 8+0=8
WIS: 12+0=12
CHA: 8+0= 8

In that case the human eventually bumps wisdom when the half orc takes, assuming its worth bumping wisdom. Which, given that feats are allowed, it probably isn't. The human can take resiellent wisdom instead as his last feat/ability score increase (or earlier if you prefer that to maxing con).

In fact, one has to question whether putting ability score increases in con or dex is ever worth it when feats exist. There are probably better usages, as two solid feats to boost offense, plus boosting an important save or two via the feat, plus maxing strength already stretches you pretty far.

[NeoSeraphi]

See, and that's the difference between you and me silva. You value feats in this edition, and I don't. I think the large majority of feats aren't worth taking, especially for non-casters, and I'd rather just pick up GWM and then bump all my stats to high heaven (maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatant if I want, probably Skilled because it's nice).

If you think feats are good, then variant human is alright. I don't, and it's my guide. I value Reckless Endurance, poison resistance, and higher ability scores over feats.

[silveralen]

See, and that's the difference between you and me silva. You value feats in this edition, and I don't. I think the large majority of feats aren't worth taking, especially for non-casters, and I'd rather just pick up GWM and then bump all my stats to high heaven (maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatant if I want, probably Skilled because it's nice).

If you think feats are good, then variant human is alright. I don't, and it's my guide. I value Reckless Endurance, poison resistance, and higher ability scores over feats.

Okay, that's fine and all, but this is an optimization guide. It isn't what you like, its what actually is good. You seem to have trouble comparing the value of certain abilities

Reckless endurance is a crappy ability. It will rarely if ever prevent someone from going down in a fight, it just gives them (maybe) a turn to do something, failing that it just allows them to force one enemy to waste an attack putting them down that normally would've been directed at a party member. If the DM is smart and someone has an AoE that deals damage even on a save, it won't even accomplish that much. It can do this once a day. It is unlikely to ever, in the entire campaign, actually make a noticeable difference in the outcome, mainly because it can't actually protect you from massive damage at low levels and save or die effects at high levels.

Whereas, a feat like resilient wisdom can turn a saving throw that succeeds 10% of the time to one that succeeds 30-40% of the time. Suddenly your barbarian isn't helpless if an enemy spellcaster has hold person prepared. God forbid you try to compare that feat to just increasing your wisdom score.

Remember talking about how you liked talking about advantage vs poisons? That's, at best, a 25% increase to one specific subset of constitution saves. Resilient is roughly that big an increase... for every single save for that attribute.

Feats are really strong, and you are heavily undervaluing them, while heavily over valuing very mediocre things like a 12 vs 10 wisdom or reckless endurance.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, that's fine and all, but this is an optimization guide. It isn't what you like, its what actually is good. You seem to have trouble comparing the value of certain abilities

Reckless endurance is a crappy ability. It will rarely if ever prevent someone from going down in a fight, it just gives them (maybe) a turn to do something, failing that it just allows them to force one enemy to waste an attack putting them down that normally would've been directed at a party member. It does that once a day. It is unlikely to ever, in the entire campaign, actually make a noticeable difference in the outcome.

Whereas, a feat like resilient wisdom can turn a saving throw that succeeds 10% of the time to one that succeeds 30-40% of the time. Suddenly your barbarian isn't helpless if an enemy spellcaster has hold person prepared. God forbid you try to compare that feat to just increasing your wisdom score.

Remember talking about how you liked talking about advantage vs poisons? That's, at best, a 25% increase to one specific subset of constitution saves. Resilient is roughly that big an increase... for every single save for that attribute.

Feats destroy racial abilities this edition. By a wide margin.


I'm giving the advice I think is important. This edition is brutal, especially early, and variant humans are weaker than dwarves or orcs early, while they average out to about the same mid-late.

The race is good. I gave it a blue rating. It's just not as good as half orcs or mountain dwarves, because they are harder to kill in the early game and have the same strong offense and defense later.

You think variant humans are good, and I agree for classes that need feats. Barbarians need stats. Variant humans have lower stats, particularly when you don't use point buy. If your highest roll is a 14, you want +2 to your Strength. If your highest roll is a 16 or 18, you still want a +2 to your Strength. You seem to be under the impression that point buy should be the standard set here. I am not under that impression because that's not what I see at my tables. Generally speaking, you have a better chance of rolling an even score than an odd score (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 is six chances, while 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 is only five). A +1 to two scores is worse than a +2 to two scores, or even a +2 to 1 and a +1 to the second. Period.

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, the OP has sold me on what I will play if I get a chance (I am DMing and having fun with that, but there is a 5e DM shortage in these parts, so playing ain't an option for me yet!).

I wanna try a half-orc barbarian berserker (only using the frenzy once per day max, and usually saving it for the "boss monster") outlander, so I can do "Barbarianish" stuff of super-crit and not dying right from level 1. If I used the standard array, I could get Str and Con up to 20 eventually, and then at 19th take Resilient (to bring dex up to 14, and also get proficiency in dex saves, which would make all my physical saves awesome!). No armor or shield, ever. Skills would include Intimidate (free), perception, stealth, althletics and survival. Extra language should be giant, because I like to shout! :smallbiggrin: Greataxe and ready to go! A natural 20 on an attack roll will be glorious! Keth SMASH! :smallfurious:

[NeoSeraphi]

For what it is worth, the OP has sold me on what I will play if I get a chance (I am DMing and having fun with that, but there is a 5e DM shortage in these parts, so playing ain't an option for me yet!).

I wanna try a half-orc barbarian berserker (only using the frenzy once per day max, and usually saving it for the "boss monster") outlander, so I can do "Barbarianish" stuff of super-crit and not dying right from level 1. If I used the standard array, I could get Str and Con up to 20 eventually, and then at 19th take Resilient (to bring dex up to 14, and also get proficiency in dex saves, which would make all my physical saves awesome!). No armor or shield, ever. Skills would include Intimidate (free), perception, stealth, althletics and survival. Extra language should be giant, because I like to shout! :smallbiggrin: Greataxe and ready to go! A natural 20 on an attack roll will be glorious! Keth SMASH! :smallfurious:

If you want to take Resilient (Dex) I suggest you take it earlier than 19th, as Dex saves are more relevant early when damage is much harder to deal with (especially since you aren't going bear totem). Maybe your 12th level feat? You'll get more enjoyment out of that proficiency the longer you have it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.Killing your foes before they attack is pretty good defense. And "Oh, you don't need to take this optimal feat at level 1 because the DM won't throw mean scary monsters at you" is pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect from an optimization thread. I've personally needed it at level 1, facing down a bunch of guards with no caster AoE to speak of. You don't even really need to experience it in play. Just note that you can trigger the OA by essentially spring attacking from a distance, and add in the extra damage from the inevitable OA and the bonus action attack. Compare that to the extra damage from, say, +2 STR. I already did.

I'll let silver speak for GWM, but for a STR-based meleer I would always get Polearm Master in exchange for a stat point and some crummy racial features.

[Mechaviking]

I also heard about a group running the first premade adventure path with a human variant fighter with GWM and he was wrecking so much face that the paladin was reduced to really high ac and 1 longsword attack each round.

Likewise from my own group a variant human with marksmanship is by far the most reliable source of damage in the group(and he´s a beastmaster ranger!).

Also getting something at lvl 1 which is normally available until lvl 4 is HUGE.

We can crunch the numbers later on(if you want), but I guess polearm barbarian is going to increase his lvl 1 damage by about 30% without the OA and 70% with it(yes it is that good).

[silveralen]

Killing your foes before they attack is pretty good defense. And "Oh, you don't need to take this optimal feat at level 1 because the DM won't throw mean scary monsters at you" is pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect from an optimization thread. I've personally needed it at level 1, facing down a bunch of guards with no caster AoE to speak of. You don't even really need to experience it in play. Just note that you can trigger the OA by essentially spring attacking from a distance, and add in the extra damage from the inevitable OA and the bonus action attack. Compare that to the extra damage from, say, +2 STR. I already did.

I'll let silver speak for GWM, but for a STR-based meleer I would always get Polearm Master in exchange for a stat point and some crummy racial features.

If you plan to use polearms I certainly would as well. It's an excellent choice early on. It's really hard to argue with polearm master as the best way to play barbarian as well. The feat is just amazing at every level.


I'm giving the advice I think is important. This edition is brutal, especially early, and variant humans are weaker than dwarves or orcs early, while they average out to about the same mid-late.

The race is good. I gave it a blue rating. It's just not as good as half orcs or mountain dwarves, because they are harder to kill in the early game and have the same strong offense and defense later.

You think variant humans are good, and I agree for classes that need feats. Barbarians need stats. Variant humans have lower stats, particularly when you don't use point buy. If your highest roll is a 14, you want +2 to your Strength. If your highest roll is a 16 or 18, you still want a +2 to your Strength. You seem to be under the impression that point buy should be the standard set here. I am not under that impression because that's not what I see at my tables. Generally speaking, you have a better chance of rolling an even score than an odd score (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 is six chances, while 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 is only five). A +1 to two scores is worse than a +2 to two scores, or even a +2 to 1 and a +1 to the second. Period.

No, variant humans are far stronger early on. Heck, if you really wanna compare, a +1 to strength is 1 damage per hit and a 5% increased chance to hit. Polearm master is an extra chance to hit each turn with 1d4+3 damage. That's going to win on damage every single time, before we even factor in rage damage boost occuring twice, the fact you can gain advantage easily, and the reaction attack each round.

Low levels are brutal, but neither race helps much. It isn't like low levels are brutal due to poison, and I'm not going to type up again why half orcs endurance ability is so awful and unlikely to change anything. 1 HP or 1 AC isn't enough shift the flow of battle like 1-2 extra attacks every single round will.

Keep in mind, variant human can have a +2 to str or con if they choose.

If your highest roll on a 4d6 drop the lowest set is 15 or 17, variant human every single time. If it was 16 or 18, then you have to make a descion. Which is why I have trouble with the idea of half orc beating variant human, you need a specific roll to even consider taking anything else, and an 18 strength I could easily still see myself going variant human and waiting till lvl 4 to max it out, as polearm master helps more 1-4 than an extra +1 str mod.

I don't think you realize how game changing these feats are. Polearm master is a better version of the lvl 11 and lvl 3 abilities of frenzied beserker, that is how powerful feats are this edition. Variant human is always sky blue for any class this time, just like human has been for a while.

[NeoSeraphi]

Likewise from my own group a variant human with marksmanship is by far the most reliable source of damage in the group(and he´s a beastmaster ranger!).

Marksmanship isn't a feat...are you talking about Sharpshooter? :smallconfused:

[Mechaviking]

Marksmanship isn't a feat...are you talking about Sharpshooter? :smallconfused:

Duh! yes that :D AFB syndrome, sorry ;)

[odigity]

It seems like NeoSeraphi and silveralen aren't actually arguing about the value of Polearm Master, but rather the value of strong offense vs defense at early levels.

So, couldn't we resolve this by including both points of view in the guide, and then NeoSeraphi can add the opinion that defense is better early on, but if the reader disagrees, at least they know the best way to enhance offense?

[Particle_Man]

If you want to take Resilient (Dex) I suggest you take it earlier than 19th, as Dex saves are more relevant early when damage is much harder to deal with (especially since you aren't going bear totem). Maybe your 12th level feat? You'll get more enjoyment out of that proficiency the longer you have it.

If I were using something other than the standard array, yes, but I wanna max out str/con ASAP. Half the reason I took resilient was to "even out" the 13 on the third stat in the array (a minor clean up, as ending with an odd stat would to me be like a sentence with a preposition after).

[NeoSeraphi]

If I were using something other than the standard array, yes, but I wanna max out str/con ASAP. Half the reason I took resilient was to "even out" the 13 on the third stat in the array (a minor clean up, as ending with an odd stat would to me be like a sentence with a preposition after).

Ah, well, if you're taking it for the Dex and not the proficient save then it makes more sense. :smallsmile:


So, couldn't we resolve this by including both points of view in the guide, and then NeoSeraphi can add the opinion that defense is better early on, but if the reader disagrees, at least they know the best way to enhance offense?
Alright then. Let me update. I'll put that note where Variant Human is (but I'm still not changing the rating).

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, I've added some advice to the Variant Human section and upgraded Polearm Master to sky blue.

[silveralen]

Alright then. Let me update. I'll put that note where Variant Human is (but I'm still not changing the rating).


Alright then. Let me update. I'll put that note where Variant Human is (but I'm still not changing the rating).

So, what is your worry at low levels? Lay out some times you think reckless endurance helps keep characters alive. Just so I can make some comparisons.

Because on consideration, for barbarian the tough feat is far more likely to keep you alive. It also protects against criticals dropping you past your negative max HP in a way reckless endurance doesn't.

[Particle_Man]

Btw, I was looking through the DMG and there is one racial option that might be useful for Barbarians.

No I don't mean the Aasimar or the Eladrin (although the teleportation feature is nice for a meelee character that otherwise can't get into meelee).

I mean the Skeleton. Skeletons are specifically immune to exhaustion (I think that they are the only NPC race listed on p.282 that are) and NPC skeletons can be built as PCs as an option. Now they have the vulnerability that all undead have to turning/control by clerics and necromancers, but a barbarian (berserker) skeleton can frenzy every time they rage, without penalty. That has got to be worth at least a mention. Even if not open to players, it is a nasty trick for a reusable monster in the DM's toolbox.

Mind you, I guess they don't match the title of the thread, having already died. :smalltongue:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You know what's a good way to not die? Prevent enemies from attacking you. Consider a Barbarian with PB or Standard Array (PB is friendlier to the half orc actually), facing off against a melee enemy with regular reach.

The Half Orc who pumped stats enjoys a +1 to hit, damage, AC, and HP/level, along with slightly better crits and the ability to negate a part of one hit once per short rest.

The Variant Human who took Polearm Master and Sentinel can OA the enemy before he attacks, setting his movement to zero, preventing the enemy from engaging in melee at all. This can negate many attacks entirely every single encounter. He also gets that OA and a bonus action attack, which adds up to much more DPR in spite of the slight STR disadvantage.

Potential counterpoints:
Not all enemies are meleers with 5' reach. Fine, but many are, especially when you consider that large groups of weak enemies being a viable, tough fight is part of what separates 5e from the rest of the D&D crowd. And you still often get reactions against foes with 10' reach, as long as they have to approach you. Not only that, but as I show below you could get 0 extra OAs and still come out ahead in DPR just because of the bonus action attack!
You could have better things to do with your bonus action. I'll admit that the shove from the Shield Master is a competitive option, especially on Barbs since they'll win the contest often enough. Frenzy certainly is not a competitive option (unless you're a skeleton, I guess?), considering the exhaustion and the fact that you lose out on totem features. Frenzy is correctly labeled Red, but it makes the whole path at best Purple IMO.
Not everyone wants to use a polearm. Whatever happened to the slobbering half orc with a giant club or axe? Yeah, I didn't want to use a Spiked Chain in 3e because it seemed dumb. But I admitted it was mechanically superior. Please do list out options for people who don't want to deal with tactical movement and action denial and all that jazz. Some people, especially barbarian players, just want to hit things and hit them hard. But it's a disservice not to point out that the gold option is polearm master.Consider the poor noob who has to join a game with an optimized party of moon druids and scorching ray sorcerers and bardlocks and such, who came to read your guide to figure out how to compete. He may completely read over variant human and polearm master because the former has the same rating as half elves, and the latter is hidden among eight feats given a light blue rating with half the benefit of the feat (more OAs) missing from the description.

Actually, a lot of this could be solved with a build stub section.

Some maths for the above, assuming no advantage or disadvantage (the stat boosts are LESS useful with advantage due to you already being super accurate):d = base damage before stat bumps using a glaive
c = chance to hit before stat bumps
d = regular average damage
b = bonus action damage = d-3
a = average # of OAs per round
p = additional # of OAs per round given polearm master
n = number of attacks per attack action (1 or 2, depending on level)

The Half-Orc's DPR is (n+a)(c+0.05)(d+1)
The Polearm Master's DPR is (n+a+p)cd+c(d-3)

To make this clearer, let's calibrate it with an example.
c = 0.5
d = 11.5 (glaive, 16 str for human and 18 for orc, 3 rage bonus)
n = 2 (level 5)
a = 0 (intelligent enemy engaging the barbarian)
p = 0.8 (5' reach and not right next to the barbarian, but sometimes the barb can't move optimally)

So the Half Orc's DPR is (2)(0.55)(12.5)=13.75
And the PM's DPR is (2.8)(0.5)(11.5)+(0.5)(8.5)=20.35

That's too much DPR to ignore. Set p=0, i.e. a dumb brute not even using most of Polearm Master's value, and the DPR is still 15.75.

You might argue that GWM + Advantage is a more realistic setup; fine, but I'm pretty sure that change favors the Polearm Master, given his extra attacks taking advantage of the +10.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe there should be different rating systems? One for technical superiority, one for simplicity?

[Slipperychicken]

Regarding uses for bonus actions: You can just use one of your normal attacks for a combat maneuver instead (any combat maneuver, not just shove), at the same bonus, and still use your bonus action to make the extra attack. Polearm Master is more versatile than shield master.

Of course, that's no reason to ditch the shield. Just dip fighter for dueling, then "stick-n-board" (sword and board, only with a quarterstaff instead of a sword) to have a great AC while putting out almost as much damage as a two-handed weapon. The only things you miss out on are reach and the GWM power attack.

[NeoSeraphi]

Regarding uses for bonus actions: You can just use one of your normal attacks for a combat maneuver instead (any combat maneuver, not just shove), at the same bonus, and still use your bonus action to make the extra attack. Polearm Master is more versatile than shield master.


Yes, but then you miss out on Dodge, Disengage, Hide and Dash...you know, the other things you can do with your bonus action, all of which have excellent combat application?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Dodge, Disengage, Hide and Dash normally take an action, not a bonus action. Perhaps you can discuss dipping Rogues in a separated section?

[NeoSeraphi]

Dodge, Disengage, Hide and Dash normally take an action, not a bonus action. Perhaps you can discuss dipping Rogues in a separated section?

Rogue or monk. But I'm not going to discuss multiclassing, like I said, because I haven't done it at a table yet. Though I am starting a new game tomorrow (much excite) so I might update it again after a few sessions once I really get a strong feel for the pace of the multiclassing system.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Eh, I intentionally left off monk because the dodge option is Ki intensive, and dipping means you'll barely have any. Not to mention the complete lack of synergy between the two classes. If you're going to dip it's probably Rogue and/or Fighter, though I haven't looked much into that.

[Slipperychicken]

Yes, but then you miss out on Dodge, Disengage, Hide and Dash...you know, the other things you can do with your bonus action, all of which have excellent combat application?

You don't miss out on them because nothing forces you to spend your bonus action one way or the other. When a round comes up where you'd rather do those than use the extra attack, you can do that.

The point I'm trying to make is that polearm master is better than shield master because it lets you do the same routine which shield master does (regular number of attacks, plus shove), but it also gives the option to make the regular attack routine with an extra attack.

[NeoSeraphi]

You don't miss out on them because nothing forces you to spend your bonus action one way or the other. When a round comes up where you'd rather do those than use the extra attack, you can do that.

The point I'm trying to make is that polearm master is better than shield master because it lets you do the same routine which shield master does (regular number of attacks, plus shove), but it also gives the option to make the regular attack routine with an extra attack.

You can't argue that Shield Master is better than Polearm Master just because Polearm Master lets you get an extra attack. Shield Master lets you use a shield, it's improving your AC. So I could just as easily reply that Shield Master lets you get the same number of attacks plus shove, but also gives you a shield bonus to your AC, which Polearm Master does not do unless you use a quarterstaff.

[Balor777]

Ok guys first post here!(Sorry if my english "sound" weird)
I didnt want to make a new thread about Barbarian and since the discusion is nice here ill give you my 2 cents
on how ill play my Berserker at about a week when the session will start.

At the begning i really liked the Totem Barbarian because i actually actually made
a totem barbarian Character class from the nice totem barbarian(Tyrant from Lineage2).For the 3.5.

This time im gonna make a Berserker barbarian tho.
Ill start by saying that i dont find SUPER the Totem barbarian at all.
The only super nice ability is the 3rd lvl Bear.Other than that the others are so-so.
And i somehow feel that TotemBarb 3/Fighter "X+" will be better at everything especialy if you choose Half-orc.

On the other hand ill give you my build.
Race: Dragonborn fire subtype.
STR 15(17racial) DEX 13 CON 15 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 8 (9 racial)
Feat at 4th level -> Resilient Dexterity
Battleaxe + shield + scale mail. -> AC 17 (18 at 4th level)

What this gives you.
Permanent passively fire resistance.
I believe you are likely overating the elemental resistance bear gives you.
Many of the times spellcasters will attack while invisible and you will probalby
be out of rage against a spell/elemental trap.
For all these cases passive 50% elemental damage reduction from lets say fire is nice.
Plus you cant stack this nice dragonborn ability with anything to get lets say 75% or elemental immunity.

Key ability:Mindless Rage.Unless your dm plays spellcasters like creeps you WILL need this SO BAD that in
my humble opinion that will save your party more times than 50% less damage from spells while at rage.
A charmed/feared Barbarian/Fighter/ranger is bad to your party.And the Bezerker will resist this at will.


Frenzy.Ok this should not be red imo.Exhastion is OK to me not that bad.You will use that extra attack(Frenzy)
at the 1-2 last BIG fights.If stacked with reckless attack while holding a shield for that +2 AC you get 2 times you rage damage(2x attacks) at reduced recless cost (18+ AC) .Someone can do the math but 18AC with disadvantage might be like 15AC without disadvantage.
So with recless attack 2d8+10(advantage) damage at 18ac(disadvantage)vs 2d6(or 1d12) +5 damage at lets say 16 AC.
Its 19 vs 12 damage till 5 level without taking into accound the extradamage from advantage.
At 5 level its 3d8+15 vs 4d6+10 or 24 vs 17 damage again without taking into account extra damage from advantage.

Now some may say that the totem 2hander can attack with recless attack too but imo it is too dangerous at 16 AC.
And if he chooses to use shield to use safer the recless attack the damage gained will be low because he will still have
1 attack less.

Retaliation is defensive whirwind attack.3 people manage to hit you?3 extra attacks.Are you flanked like hell from 6 enemies?6 extra attacks.

Also take in mind that weapon hit die play less and less role as the character gets stronger.At lvl 3 a maul barbarian with 17 str in rage has +5 damage. Thats 60% damage from weapon (average 7) snd 40 % from str + rage.
A 20 str 16lvl barbarian with the same maul deals +9 damage from str + rage and 7 avarage damage from the weapon.
This time its 40% from weapon die and 60% from str+rage.

a)Resilient(DEX)+Mindless Rage vs b)Great weapon master + Bear 50% DR to everything.
In my opinion if like my character you choose fire subtype dragonborn a is better.
Key spell: Dominate person.If your barbarian fails the save(low wis+ low "will" saving throw = he will probably fail), "Here i am, rock you like a hurricane"
this is PURE GORE to the party,your Raged Totem barbarian attacks your wizard. OHH FUUAAARK!
As i see it with Mindless rage + resilient DEX + Danger sence + fire ressistance you have a
character that will be ressistant against CON/WIS/DEX/STR spells/saving throws and will probably take not 50%
but 0 damage from that fireball or meteor swarm even while sharpening his axe or talking to his cellphone.

Fire breath + Extra attack(Frenzy):
You can use your breath weapon and attack a poor guy at the same round.Your wizard throws a fireball you will probably succed the reflex.1 or 2 or 3 people dead.

Another thing i like with the Berzerker with shield is that he can effectively tank
or deal some extra damage with frenzy, or manage to attack a high armor class enemy witout loosing too
much survivability or attack with Frenzy + recless attack because that dam wizard must die NOW or we are all dead.

Thats my 2 cents.Once again sry about my english.
Again im not trying to say totem is BAD but i find it more tankish than what we have in mind as a barbarian.
Again a lvl 3 totem/+++ fighter half-orc is SUPER.But this is not barbarian.

[silveralen]

Shield master is a good ability, but I'm not sure it really caters to barbarian.

Barbarians, as a class, suffers from really poor damage. Early on it isn't too noticeable, he has rages while ranger, paladin, and fighter rely on their fighting styles and various benefits (smites, hunter's mark/hunter features, and action surge/manuevers or crits). But by the mid levels, the gap starts to widen a bit.

Paladin's 11th level damage boosting ability offers as much as max rage damage, plus he can burn spells to smite, use haste, hunter's mark. Fighter is getting three attacks, as well as his archetype boosters. Ranger struggles as well, but has a decent list of spells to draw from, and TWF/archer+hunter's mark is still on par with what a barbarian can put out.

Barbarian just has extra damage on criticals, which can be very very inconsistent, and advantage so he at least hits consistently. Works together alright, but amazing really. What really makes barbarian work is something like polearm master for more attacks, or great weapon master so his accuracy starts paying dividends. Frenzied berserker can work, but is problematic. All of which makes shield master, and even using a shield, unappealing.

Remember, barbarian is going to get hit a lot. That's why you have damage resistance. Trying to boost AC on a barbarian is just going to result in a toothless turtle, you'll be forced away from using many of your features and the synergies they contain.

[Particle_Man]

Mind you, a Totem Barbarian that takes the mid-level bear ability can make all sorts of "You lifting? Nah, this is lifting" jokes. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I think that you can't use your reaction to hit all 6 people that hit you, because you can only use the reaction when you take damage from one of them (to his "that creature"), and you don't get a second reaction until the start of your next turn (under the rules for reactions).

Btw, from the berserker point of view potions of vitality are wonderful. And I think that a ring of spell storing would lovely too, if there is a high level bard, cleric or druid in the party. Even without those items and just the latter casters, that makes the berserker more feasible, since if the party judges it worth it, the berserker could frenzy more often on a particularly gruelling game day. So if you are a berserker, be *extra nice* to the player of the bard, cleric or druid. :smallsmile:

[Balor777]

Mind you, a Totem Barbarian that takes the mid-level bear ability can make all sorts of "You lifting? Nah, this is lifting" jokes. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I think that you can't use your reaction to hit all 6 people that hit you, because you can only use the reaction when you take damage from one of them, and you don't get a second reaction until the start of your next turn.

Starting at 14th level, when you take damage from
a creature that is within 5 feet o f you. you can use
your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against
that creature.
>Are we sure that you only have one reaction per round?

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, page 190 of phb under reactions (also in BASIC D&D Players' Book pdf version 0.2, on page 70). I am sorry.

[silveralen]

Actually, lets talk about a tanky barbarian for a bit. How does one work?

A tanky barbarian wants enemies to attack him, he wants to absorb damage for his teammates, yet he wants to survive. Thus, reckless attacks. Enemies are encouraged to attack,as they are likely to hit, yet your rage seriously cuts down on damage received. The high chance of hitting, plus rage damage, makes his attacks consistently threatening as well. Any source of healing effectively goes twice as far for a barbarian, as do any sources of extra HP, due to the resistance, especially if you go with a bear barbarian.

That's the perfect way for a tank to work: soaks damage, benefits most from healing, can threaten enemies, and doesn't discourage enemies from attacking.

However, if you focus on boosting AC over damage, the dynamic changes. Enemies have a hard time landing blows, and no real incentive to try. You aren't a real threat behind your shield compared to anyone else in your party. You deal mediocre damage, and don't even hit more consistently without sacrificing that AC. If you want to boost your damage, your only option is frenzied berserker, as a shield locks you out of most damage boosting feats, and that doesn't help you except once, maybe twice a day.

So you need to find a way around those issues if you go this route. The easiest path is polearm master. You can then rock an extra attack with quarterstaff each round. It isn't ideal, you are losing damage due to the small crit dice. The other benefit is being able to switch between one handed and two handed later on, as needed.

A champion fighter dip to three/four gets you action surge, dueling, and an expanded crit range for your high damage crits. With shield master and a DM with a lenient interpretation of bonus action order (allowing you to shield bash before your attacks), you can mitigate the need for reckless attack. It works fairly well.

[Balor777]

Barbarians, as a class, suffers from really poor damage(...)
Barbarian just has extra damage on criticals, which can be very very inconsistent, and advantage so he at least hits consistently. Works together alright, but amazing really. What really makes barbarian work is something like polearm master for more attacks, or great weapon master so his accuracy starts paying dividends. Frenzied berserker can work, but is problematic. All of which makes shield master, and even using a shield, unappealing.

I agree that damage wise Barbarian is on the low side, yes.Frenzy helps tho.
As for the shield.I feel that i would trade 2 AC for 2,4 damage per hit at this version of the game, at least for now.
I didnt say i would take the shield master feat. :)

[NeoSeraphi]

Frenzy.Ok this should not be red imo.Exhastion is OK to me not that bad.You will use that extra attack(Frenzy)
at the 1-2 last BIG fights.If stacked with reckless attack while holding a shield for that +2 AC you get 2 times you rage damage(2x attacks) at reduced recless cost (18+ AC) .Someone can do the math but 18AC with disadvantage might be like 15AC without disadvantage.
So with recless attack 2d8+10(advantage) damage at 18ac(disadvantage)vs 2d6(or 1d12) +5 damage at lets say 16 AC.
Its 19 vs 12 damage till 5 level without taking into accound the extradamage from advantage.
At 5 level its 3d8+15 vs 4d6+10 or 24 vs 17 damage again without taking into account extra damage from advantage.


You use Frenzy the last two fights in a day? Okay. So now you have 2 levels of exhaustion. You need to take a long rest immediately or you will be fairly useless in the next fight, especially before you get Fast Movement. And even when you wake up, you have disadvantage on all ability checks. That means you have disadvantage on initiative, on all skill checks, on shoving and grappling and everything else. You have disadvantage on literally every roll you want to make other than attacking or saving.

And now you have to go a full day without using Frenzy, or you'll halve your speed again.

No, a class feature that you can literally only use once per long rest (and even then it penalizes you for the rest of the day, so it's even worse than your standard once per long rest like Action Surge), or it penalizes you for the next full day (and only if you skip using it again that day, otherwise the penalty becomes worse and extends another day) is nothing less than red. It's disgusting, I don't care how much damage it adds.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Shield Master would allow you to shove opponents prone (within limits), gaining/granting advantage in melee without the needing Reckless Attack or Wolf totem. This is the same advantage as other Barb features, but with different costs (A ASI and a bonus action instead of granting advantage to opponents, and it allows for a different totem choice). Depending on how the DM rules on using a bonus action between attacks, this means you'd lose out on advantage on the first attack, or for the round.
Further it enhances Dex saves.

So if the goal is to be very tough and have some control, it's good. Suitable for specific builds. But not all. Worthy of blue, but maybe not sky blue.

[Balor777]

However, if you focus on boosting AC over damage, the dynamic changes. Enemies have a hard time landing blows, and no real incentive to try. You aren't a real threat behind your shield compared to anyone else in your party. You deal mediocre damage, and don't even hit more consistently without sacrificing that AC. If you want to boost your damage, your only option is frenzied berserker, as a shield locks you out of most damage boosting feats, and that doesn't help you except once, maybe twice a day.

I think you are making a mistake presuming either that:
a)A barbarian with a shield attacking recklesly is more difficult to be hit than a barbarian with a 2h without reckless attack.
or
b)A barbarian with a 2h attacking recklessly can tank with 16 AC.A minor enemy with +4 to the attack roll will probably hit this
barbarian every time he attacks.If 2 or more guys are hitting you, you will be in trouble fast.

A barbarian using a shield and Recless attack WILL hit and maybe it wont be hitted back
A barbarian with a 2hander witout reckless attack have good chances to hit and also maybe wont be hitted back with half the chances
to deal a critical hit.
A barbarian with a 2hander with recless attack WILL hit and WILL be hited back most of the times but he wont be able to do it
without be healed.Getting healed cuts attacks/spells from cleric/druid.

A frenzied barb with a 2h does 7,5 more damage per round than with shield.But at the end of the second round he will cut offensive
action from the lets say cleric to heal him.

Now on damage boosting feats, polearm master is nice altho its better with TotemBarb and it does not work well with feral instict because you will be the one that goes into the melee first.Great weapon master +10 damage at -5 to attack means you will miss probably one of your attacks this makes it not that attractive to me.

[Balor777]

You use Frenzy the last two fights in a day? Okay. So now you have 2 levels of exhaustion. You need to take a long rest immediately or you will be fairly useless in the next fight, especially before you get Fast Movement. And even when you wake up, you have disadvantage on all ability checks. That means you have disadvantage on initiative, on all skill checks, on shoving and grappling and everything else. You have disadvantage on literally every roll you want to make other than attacking or saving.

And now you have to go a full day without using Frenzy, or you'll halve your speed again.

No, a class feature that you can literally only use once per long rest (and even then it penalizes you for the rest of the day, so it's even worse than your standard once per long rest like Action Surge), or it penalizes you for the next full day (and only if you skip using it again that day, otherwise the penalty becomes worse and extends another day) is nothing less than red. It's disgusting, I don't care how much damage it adds.

Well think of it like this.
For the levels 3 and 4 once per day you will deal more damage than your enemies should be able to handle making that difficult encouter
probably a lot easier.At level 5 to ~7 this abillity is almost bad.From 8+ you can prety much afford potions of restoration and can be healed with greater restoration.Wich is not that BAD as a strategy.Every Frenzy use is about lets say +100 damage per minute.
A cure wounds casted as a 5th level spell is ~25-30 hp healed.Mass cure wounds is ~18 hp x3.
Anyway we dont have to argue.I was trying to say that this abillity should be Black not red. :)

[NeoSeraphi]

Well think of it like this.
For the levels 3 and 4 once per day you will deal more damage than your enemies should be able to handle making that difficult encouter
probably a lot easier.At level 5 to ~7 this abillity is almost bad.From 8+ you can prety much afford potions of restoration and can be healed with greater restoration.Wich is not that BAD as a strategy.Every Frenzy use is about lets say +100 damage per minute.
A cure wounds casted as a 5th level spell is ~25-30 hp healed.Mass cure wounds is ~18 hp x3.
Anyway we dont have to argue.I was trying to say that this abillity should be Black not red. :)

Really? Because I'm fairly certain most DMs won't just allow you to buy magic items whenever you want in this edition, considering magic items are supposed to be priceless and no one can afford them or sells them. Where would you buy them from?

[Particle_Man]

Reckless attack is also nice for barbarians as it gives more chances to roll a 20 and crits are fun for half-orcs and high level barbarians..

I think part of the frenzy appeal later on will depend on whether the party also contains a druid/cleric/bard, because once they can cast 5th level spells, then when you need to frenzy more often, and the caster agrees that it is more useful than a different 5th level spell would be, then it is available as an option.

[NeoSeraphi]

Reckless attack is also nice for barbarians as it gives more chances to roll a 20 and crits are fun for half-orcs and high level barbarians..

I think part of the frenzy appeal later on will depend on whether the party also contains a druid/cleric/bard, because once they can cast 5th level spells, then when you need to frenzy more often, and the caster agrees that it is more useful than a different 5th level spell would be, then it is available as an option.

And you have to shell out 100 gp every time it happens.

[silveralen]

I agree that damage wise Barbarian is on the low side, yes.Frenzy helps tho.
As for the shield.I feel that i would trade 2 AC for 2,4 damage per hit at this version of the game, at least for now.
I didnt say i would take the shield master feat. :)

The problem is, you are only trading that level of damage if you exclude feats (though without feats I would agree with you and pack a shield).

Once you factor in feats, single weapon damage drops off much more steeply.


I think you are making a mistake presuming either that:
a)A barbarian with a shield attacking recklesly is more difficult to be hit than a barbarian with a 2h without reckless attack.
or
b)A barbarian with a 2h attacking recklessly can tank with 16 AC.A minor enemy with +4 to the attack roll will probably hit this
barbarian every time he attacks.If 2 or more guys are hitting you, you will be in trouble fast.

A barbarian using a shield and Recless attack WILL hit and maybe it wont be hitted back
A barbarian with a 2hander witout reckless attack have good chances to hit and also maybe wont be hitted back with half the chances
to deal a critical hit.
A barbarian with a 2hander with recless attack WILL hit and WILL be hited back most of the times but he wont be able to do it
without be healed.Getting healed cuts attacks/spells from cleric/druid.

The thing is, barbarian doesn't mind getting hit. Damage resistance, healing potions and short rests with his large hit dice let him take hits. Barbarian is unique in that he doesn't need to avoid being hit as much.

[Particle_Man]

And you have to shell out 100 gp every time it happens.

Yeah, but at 9th+ level it is not that big a deal, given the random treasure associated with monsters and the lack of other things to spend it on (really, if you are not buying magic items, and 5e seems to lean against buying magic items, then spells are the other big ticket items to spend the money on anyhow).

[Aramis Rhett]

Haven't read the entirety of the thread, and seeing as many posts are very long I most likely will not, I will suggest a change to the race portion concerning halflings. Yes, great clubs are 2handed and not heavy, and do 1d8. Warhammers, longswords, and battleaxes are all 1d8 and 1handed, as well as being versatile. Meaning a halfling can still rock a 1d10 2hander, or a 1d8 + shield.

[MeeposFire]

Haven't read the entirety of the thread, and seeing as many posts are very long I most likely will not, I will suggest a change to the race portion concerning halflings. Yes, great clubs are 2handed and not heavy, and do 1d8. Warhammers, longswords, and battleaxes are all 1d8 and 1handed, as well as being versatile. Meaning a halfling can still rock a 1d10 2hander, or a 1d8 + shield.

That may very well be true BUT the value of the two handed weapon is less the damage die and more the heavy quality that allows them to get bonus damage from the great weapon fighting feat.

[Aramis Rhett]

Either way, the greatclub isn't heavy, so no bonus. Any of the others I mentioned do the same damage in one hand. For a feat, sentinel (if you pass the bear totem ability that has a similar function) or savage attacker. Rerolling a 1 on a damage roll is pretty sweet. And it is usable once per turn. Pretty good, but somewhat lackluster overall. But given the choices as a halfling, the good choices are gimped due to size.

[MeeposFire]

Either way, the greatclub isn't heavy, so no bonus. Any of the others I mentioned do the same damage in one hand. For a feat, sentinel (if you pass the bear totem ability that has a similar function) or savage attacker. Rerolling a 1 on a damage roll is pretty sweet. And it is usable once per turn. Pretty good, but somewhat lackluster overall. But given the choices as a halfling, the good choices are gimped due to size.

Right but that is why two handed weapons are not really worth it for the small races. I just don't think the small difference in damage dice is worth the loss in AC when you don't get things like the great weapon fighting bonus damage.

[Aramis Rhett]

Right but that is why two handed weapons are not really worth it for the small races. I just don't think the small difference in damage dice is worth the loss in AC when you don't get things like the great weapon fighting bonus damage.

That's the awesome about the weapons I mentioned. Keep the 1d8, and pick up a shield. Use the shield when you need to, stow it away and go to 1d10 when you don't.

Edit: Which I said in the last sentence of my first post. Just noticed it after posting.

[NeoSeraphi]

Sword and Boarding is sub optimal for a barbarian due to the existence of Fighting Styles. If you really want to use a sword and shield, you'd be better off going fighter or paladin for the Dueling Fighting Style, which on its own is equivalent to having a low level barbarian's Rage damage bonus always up. Missing out on that by going barbarian seems like a waste to me.

[MeeposFire]

Sword and Boarding is sub optimal for a barbarian due to the existence of Fighting Styles. If you really want to use a sword and shield, you'd be better off going fighter or paladin for the Dueling Fighting Style, which on its own is equivalent to having a low level barbarian's Rage damage bonus always up. Missing out on that by going barbarian seems like a waste to me.

Well a straight up barb keeps it easy by not having those styles. For a barb going sword and board means on average you will deal about 2 points of damage less per hit (assuming great axe vs long sword) and with two attacks that is about 4 damage per round versus having 2-5 points more of AC +possible other magical benefits.

Now this calculation changes significantly if you allow the great weapon fighting feat which clearly pushes two handed ahead in damage by far. However in this conversation we are talking about small races who cannot use that feat very well and cannot use the best weapons. In this case I think S+B is very competitive since without access to those weapons and feats I just don't see how the damage difference is really great enough to offset the survivability.

[Uthgar21]

I created an Uthgardt Barbarian (simple human race, berseker path) and it's really fun!!I tank amazingly, most of the times I am alone swarmed by enemies while my stupid allies argue about who must spend what for this or the other spell. :P Of course I almost died twice but I am still here so no problem!!I put 3 16s in Str,Con,Dex and 3 9s in the others.Now that I approach the 4th lvl I am thinking of boosting Con because I will have bonus both in AC and the HP.What do you think?

[Felvion]

I created an Uthgardt Barbarian (simple human race, berseker path) and it's really fun!!I tank amazingly, most of the times I am alone swarmed by enemies while my stupid allies argue about who must spend what for this or the other spell. :P Of course I almost died twice but I am still here so no problem!!I put 3 16s in Str,Con,Dex and 3 9s in the others.Now that I approach the 4th lvl I am thinking of boosting Con because I will have bonus both in AC and the HP.What do you think?

If you play with heavy weapon (i assume you do) pick great weapon master feat. it will be a great offensive boost and will help finish your enemies before they kill you! In case you care more about defences con boost is nice and if you get hit by mind-affecting spells often you should also consider resilient (wis).

[Uthgar21]

If you play with heavy weapon (i assume you do) pick great weapon master feat. it will be a great offensive boost and will help finish your enemies before they kill you! In case you care more about defences con boost is nice and if you get hit by mind-affecting spells often you should also consider resilient (wis).

Yes, I use a greatsword!!I look into that, sounds good! :)

[Balor777]

He doesnt need resilient wis.He is a berzerker.
If i would tell you that at 4 you can get one of the following:
+2 point to put werever you want
1 feat of your choice.
Or one +1 weapon.
What would you choose?+1 weapon probably right?
If yes, put your 2 points at strength.

If you want to use reckless more safe,get +2 to attack rolls and +2 to AC ,dip a level in fighter and get duelist style.
+2 to attack rolls is a big bonus.Combine that with advantage to attack rolls and +2 AC and you will hit 90% of the time and 18AC with disadvantage is hardly the same with as 15AC without dissadvantage.You also get 1d10 +1 heal which is nice too.
Thats what i would do.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well a straight up barb keeps it easy by not having those styles. For a barb going sword and board means on average you will deal about 2 points of damage less per hit (assuming great axe vs long sword) and with two attacks that is about 4 damage per round versus having 2-5 points more of AC +possible other magical benefits.

Now this calculation changes significantly if you allow the great weapon fighting feat which clearly pushes two handed ahead in damage by far. However in this conversation we are talking about small races who cannot use that feat very well and cannot use the best weapons. In this case I think S+B is very competitive since without access to those weapons and feats I just don't see how the damage difference is really great enough to offset the survivability.

Yes, but that doesn't discount my point, which is that the smaller race who wants to use a sword and board should pick a different class, for both the higher damage and survivability. A weaker weapon, such as a long sword, does not benefit from powerful abilities such as Brutal Critical nearly as much, you can't take Great Weapon Master, and your AC bonus is negligible if you use Reckless Attack (and if you do not, then you are ignoring one of the best features about being a barbarian).

Meanwhile, if the halfling goes fighter or paladin, he gets Heavy Armor Proficiency, allowing him to grab Heavy Armor Master and have his AC significantly higher, along with getting the Dueling fighting style and Smites/Action Surge. This is much more optimal and efficient. So barbarian is a sub optimal choice for this playstyle, that's why I have not included a discussion about it in my guide.

[Uthgar21]

He doesnt need resilient wis.He is a berzerker.
If i would tell you that at 4 you can get one of the following:
+2 point to put werever you want
1 feat of your choice.
Or one +1 weapon.
What would you choose?+1 weapon probably right?
If yes, put your 2 points at strength.

If you want to use reckless more safe,get +2 to attack rolls and +2 to AC ,dip a level in fighter and get duelist style.
+2 to attack rolls is a big bonus.Combine that with advantage to attack rolls and +2 AC and you will hit 90% of the time and 18AC with disadvantage is hardly the same with as 15AC without dissadvantage.You also get 1d10 +1 heal which is nice too.
Thats what i would do.

I usually use two-handed weapons so I wouldnt be able to use the dueling style.Perhaps If I used a longsword and a shield to use the style you are proposing it could be fun because I would use reckless in every turn and with rage even if they pass my 18 AC the damage would be halved.And then I would have the heal to get it all back.Its a nice idea, havent thought of it!!
Also I liked the idea of the Great Weapon Mastery which combined with reckless attack I would hit most of the times and deal tons of damage (22 average I think) but then I would only have a 16 AC with disadvantage.Of course in the 5th lvl with frenzy and extra attack it would be certain that in my turn one enemy (at least) would die... :D
Or I could take +2 Con to have 17 AC and use reckless atk more safe.(I think that this is the worst idea of the 3 though)

[NeoSeraphi]

Great Weapon Mastery is likely the option you want to take if you are a Berserker. End fights quickly, get +20 to your damage rolls each round, and +30 when you hit 5, it's a very strong option.

[Uthgar21]

Great Weapon Mastery is likely the option you want to take if you are a Berserker. End fights quickly, get +20 to your damage rolls each round, and +30 when you hit 5, it's a very strong option.

Why +20, i thought it was giving only +10? Btw I can use the extra attack when I beat someone to 0 HP as many times as I want or only once per turn?I think I can use it as much as I like during my turn, it could be fun if there are a lot of enemies with low HP.

[NeoSeraphi]

Why +20, i thought it was giving only +10? Btw I can use the extra attack when I beat someone to 0 HP as many times as I want or only once per turn?I think I can use it as much as I like during my turn, it could be fun if there are a lot of enemies with low HP.

It's +10 per attack, and you get 2 attacks with Frenzy, 3 attacks with Extra Attack. Frenzy increases your damage output considerably, but even moreso when you factor in Great Weapon Fighting.

[Uthgar21]

It's +10 per attack, and you get 2 attacks with Frenzy, 3 attacks with Extra Attack. Frenzy increases your damage output considerably, but even moreso when you factor in Great Weapon Fighting.
Yes it would be great, but I dont like the exhaustion that you get in the end of your rage.It would be bad If the fight is not over when rage ends or if we get into another encounter before rest.But I dont have a real problem with that because without it it would be too OP I guess.

[Aramis Rhett]

Of course, it is worth noting that frenzy does allow an extra attack, it also gives you one level of exhaustion each time you enter frenzy. A big drawback, especially if you use it more than twice a day.

[Uthgar21]

Of course, it is worth noting that frenzy does allow an extra attack, it also gives you one level of exhaustion each time you enter frenzy. A big drawback, especially if you use it more than twice a day.
Perhaps it would be better to use frenzy in the late stage of the encounter so that the enemies would already have lost some of their owns and you will be able to play again during the same rage and therefore to use the second attack more than once.

[Aramis Rhett]

Perhaps it would be better to use frenzy in the late stage of the encounter so that the enemies would already have lost some of their owns and you will be able to play again during the same rage and therefore to use the second attack more than once.

True, but many DMs work several encounters (6+) per game day. That may leave many barbaric folks nervous about when to use it try to make exhaustion have the least impact on the adventuring day.

[Balor777]

It's +10 per attack, and you get 2 attacks with Frenzy, 3 attacks with Extra Attack. Frenzy increases your damage output considerably, but even moreso when you factor in Great Weapon Fighting.

You DO realise that "power attack" even with recless attack you will hit a 16 AC enemy about 50% of the time right? A sword shield with duelist style attacks the same target with around 85% probability.
Its still higher dpr with powerattack greay weapon but it definately NOT free 10 damage.
Its actualy more like 2 points more damage per round
(18STR barbarian rage +2prof using greatsword vs 1handed with duelist style.Both attacking reclessly a 16AC enemy)

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes it would be great, but I dont like the exhaustion that you get in the end of your rage.It would be bad If the fight is not over when rage ends or if we get into another encounter before rest.But I dont have a real problem with that because without it it would be too OP I guess.

How would it be bad if the fight didn't end before you got exhausted? One level of exhaustion doesn't affect your combat ability that much, just any skill checks you make during it.

Obviously, Frenzy is red. That's why I put it as red in the list. But I figured if you were playing a Path of the Berserker you were doing it so you could Frenzy, so I figured I'd encourage you to take the good option for it, which is GWM.


You DO realise that "power attack" even with recless attack you will hit a 16 AC enemy about 50% of the time right? A sword shield with duelist style attacks the same target with around 85% probability.
Its still higher dpr with powerattack greay weapon but it definately NOT free 10 damage.

Yes, but with Frenzy, you have extra opportunities to hit that 50% chance. It's not 10 free damage this early, certainly, but it's quite a lot, especially when you factor in other bonuses that this player may have, such as Combat Inspiration from his party bard, or bless. I'm talking about a character, not TO here. We don't know what his party consists of, but assuming there's at least one buff machine, his chance to hit is higher than 50%.

[MeeposFire]

Yes, but that doesn't discount my point, which is that the smaller race who wants to use a sword and board should pick a different class, for both the higher damage and survivability. A weaker weapon, such as a long sword, does not benefit from powerful abilities such as Brutal Critical nearly as much, you can't take Great Weapon Master, and your AC bonus is negligible if you use Reckless Attack (and if you do not, then you are ignoring one of the best features about being a barbarian).

Meanwhile, if the halfling goes fighter or paladin, he gets Heavy Armor Proficiency, allowing him to grab Heavy Armor Master and have his AC significantly higher, along with getting the Dueling fighting style and Smites/Action Surge. This is much more optimal and efficient. So barbarian is a sub optimal choice for this playstyle, that's why I have not included a discussion about it in my guide.

You are being far too limited in your views. A player that wants to play durable warrior that can tank better than most anybody and wants to play a small race should play a barbarian. Going with a shield the character will still get solid offense along with great durability. You are not going to get that from other classes as well.

Further for a small race the difference between two handed and using s held is tiny. We are talking on average of 1 point of damage per hit which for a small race is going to be at most 2-4 damage per round on average (and this is assuming you are going the lackluster frenzy path where you are using the bonus action attack and you also get the reaction attack which is not always true. For most barbs they will be only damage ahead).

Yes reckless attack diminishes the value of the shield but you don't use reckless attack at all times and even so I still think its bonus is overall comparable to an average 4 points of damage a round or less.

Seriously though for a small character what should you play if you want to play a fantastically durable warrior type character? Fighters, paladins, and rangers are certainly warriors but are far less durable. You seem to be hung up on maximizing damage but that is only one part of being a barbarian and the other is being fantastically durable which a sword and shield barb is while still being nasty enough offensively to be an effective melee force in the party.

[NeoSeraphi]

Paladins are certainly not "less durable" than barbarians. Barbarians take less damage, but paladins heal like crazy, not to mention they get hit far less often with no Reckless Attack and heavy armor. Plus, again, Heavy Armor Master is an excellent feat that allows you to absorb a lot of punishment, just like rage. And since Oath of the Ancients paladin gets resistance to all spell damage, they can soak a lot of damage just as well as barbarians can, only they have Lay on Hands and cure wounds in addition to their heavy armor and Heavy Armor Mastery.

[goto124]

Should this guide be recommended to a player who's never played a tabletop before?

[NeoSeraphi]

Should this guide be recommended to a player who's never played a tabletop before?

Hmmm...I think so? I tried to keep it as basic as possible. Of course I'm not the best person to ask, as I have a personal bias.

[Malifice]

He doesnt need resilient wis.He is a berzerker.
If i would tell you that at 4 you can get one of the following:
+2 point to put werever you want
1 feat of your choice.
Or one +1 weapon.
What would you choose?+1 weapon probably right?
If yes, put your 2 points at strength.

If you want to use reckless more safe,get +2 to attack rolls and +2 to AC ,dip a level in fighter and get duelist style.
+2 to attack rolls is a big bonus.Combine that with advantage to attack rolls and +2 AC and you will hit 90% of the time and 18AC with disadvantage is hardly the same with as 15AC without dissadvantage.You also get 1d10 +1 heal which is nice too.
Thats what i would do.


Duelist gives +2 to damage not to hit, and it doesnt work with 2 handed weapons. I have no idea where the +2 to AC is coming from.

[Uthgar21]

Duelist gives +2 to damage not to hit, and it doesnt work with 2 handed weapons. I have no idea where the +2 to AC is coming from.

He means to be a duelist wielding longsword and shield.The shield will give the +2 AC (without negating my Unarmored Defence) and since I will have only one one-handed weapon I will get the +2 damage which combined to the +2 from the rage is not bad.
However I think personally I will go with Heavy Weapon Mastery, its more barbarianny! :D

[Balor777]

He means to be a duelist wielding longsword and shield.The shield will give the +2 AC (without negating my Unarmored Defence) and since I will have only one one-handed weapon I will get the +2 damage which combined to the +2 from the rage is not bad.
However I think personally I will go with Heavy Weapon Mastery, its more barbarianny! :D

Yes Thats it.The +2AC comes from shield AC.
Its a very good setup because you WILL hit more often and wont be geting hit often.
Also your attacking/defensive capabilities can change and adapt the fight like a chameleon.
Need defence?Dont use anything other than rage.
Need some more damage?Attack recklessly.
Need even more damage?Drop the shield and attack recklessly with both hands using that axe, for D10 damage.
That +2 to the attack roll is like attacking with 5 level higher proficiency.Its a BIG bonus.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes Thats it.The +2AC comes from shield AC.
Its a very good setup because you WILL hit more often and wont be geting hit often.
Also your attacking/defensive capabilities can change and adapt the fight like a chameleon.
Need defence?Dont use anything other than rage.
Need some more damage?Attack recklessly.
Need even more damage?Drop the shield and attack recklessly with both hands using that axe, for D10 damage.
That +2 to the attack roll is like attacking with 5 level higher proficiency.Its a BIG bonus.

As stated, the duelist style does not give you +2 to attack rolls. The only fighting style that grants bonuses to attack rolls is archery. Duelist gives +2 to damage. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Balor777]

As stated, the duelist style does not give you +2 to attack rolls. The only fighting style that grants bonuses to attack rolls is archery. Duelist gives +2 to damage. I don't know what you're talking about.
Wow ****!Ive been playing like this for 3 sessions!Both me and the DM lost it(others didnt get books yet)
Its strange tho.
1d8 +2 is almost equal (0.5 difference) to 1d12 with reroling 1-2s.
Anyway thanks for pointing out.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow ****!Ive been playing like this for 3 sessions!Both me and the DM lost it(others didnt get books yet)
Its strange tho.
1d8 +2 is almost equal (0.5 difference) to 1d12 with reroling 1-2s.
Anyway thanks for pointing out.

Yes but it is weaker than 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s, and 1d12 will always be higher than 1d8+2 when you factor in crits.

[Aramis Rhett]

Which is why, me myself and I will use a Maul :)
More flavorful imo opinion for a Bear Totem Barbarian (weapon will essentially look like a "bear totem")
But I'll also have my trusty waraxe/shield for when more longevity is required.

[silveralen]

Yes but it is weaker than 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s, and 1d12 will always be higher than 1d8+2 when you factor in crits.

The critical feature is probably my least favorite part of barbarian, so I can see how some people would be wary of trusting it.

[NeoSeraphi]

The critical feature is probably my least favorite part of barbarian, so I can see how some people would be wary of trusting it.

Even without Brutal Critical, just comparing Duelist to Great Weapon Fighting, you deal more damage because of how crits work.

[silveralen]

Even without Brutal Critical, just comparing Duelist to Great Weapon Fighting, you deal more damage because of how crits work.

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

[NeoSeraphi]

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

I don't think you understand what a 'noticeable' difference is. The Brutal Critical feature is a textbook example of a noticeable difference, because it rarely occurs, but when it does, it is a huge power spike. It is a pitiful increase to your overall average damage not because it itself is a poor ability, but because of how rare it is.

When you Brutally crit, you notice it. Your damage increases from 1d12 to 2-5d12. You roll more dice, much more than you would at any other time, and much more than any other player would when they crit (unless they are a rogue or a paladin).

Now, perhaps the increase in your average damage is something you will fail to appreciate in the long run if you are theorycrafting, but that's not what the ability is for. It is specifically designed for thematic appreciation. The player at the table will not think about Brutal Critical when he's not rolling natural 20s, but when he does and he gets that devastating crit it will be the high point of his night. It is a hugely noticeable ability.

[silveralen]

I don't think you understand what a 'noticeable' difference is. The Brutal Critical feature is a textbook example of a noticeable difference, because it rarely occurs, but when it does, it is a huge power spike. It is a pitiful increase to your overall average damage not because it itself is a poor ability, but because of how rare it is.

When you Brutally crit, you notice it. Your damage increases from 1d12 to 2-5d12. You roll more dice, much more than you would at any other time, and much more than any other player would when they crit (unless they are a rogue or a paladin).

Now, perhaps the increase in your average damage is something you will fail to appreciate in the long run if you are theorycrafting, but that's not what the ability is for. It is specifically designed for thematic appreciation. The player at the table will not think about Brutal Critical when he's not rolling natural 20s, but when he does and he gets that devastating crit it will be the high point of his night. It is a hugely noticeable ability.

Again, a few points:

1. I was discussing the difference between a one handed weapon and two handed. A one handed weapon still spikes for a large chunk of damage, just not as much as greataxe.

2. Average damage is to help weigh how often those criticals occur and the helpful the damage difference they create is against the benefits of a one handed weapon, such as a shield.

3. One of the main problems with criticals as source of burst damage is they aren't controlled. You can easily get a critical in a situation where it benefits you little, if any. The average I gave is actually biased towards the greataxe, as it will often overkill the enemy, resulting in lost damage, and in many situations a one handed critical, or even a normal hit, would have finished the enemy off. It could even trigger when fighting an enemy so weak any hit would kill them. Or you could get two criticals in a row on the BBEG and barely kill him. It might be useless, it might be helpful, which is why we look at averages. And, on average, the difference between a greataxe and battle axe isn't going to be that significant from brutal critical alone.

It's a mediocre ability, due to the uncontrolled nature. It isn't awful, but it isn't stand out, for much the same reason crit range was more important than crit mulitplier. The best way to actually exploit it is to boost number of attacks, to spread it out more evenly. Without feats, I'd tend towards sword and board at low levels changing to duel wielding at higher levels.

[Balor777]

I mean... yes. An additional 2.7 (that is assuming you reroll crit damage using the style) damage on an average critical. Even accounting for barbarin's constant advantage that's a .27 increase to average damage. It's just not a significant difference. Even with the barbarian feature, it barely becomes a noticeable difference by the upper levels.

The point is to get it and forget it.Dont count on in.but WHEN it comes it is battle tied.
An average of 5 attacks per encounter gives 25% to apply.If you attack recklessly its 50%.If you are
playing with 2weapons its 50% to 100% with recless attack but with lower spike damage.
People think that champions 19-20 to crit at 3rd lvl is nice but Barbarian gets it at level 2 with the far superrior ability to attack with advantage.
As i said you should not count on it BUT, i would still get a greataxe to actualy make that enemy, hit by a crit, die.
At least when you get the first brutal critical bonus(1st level if half orc or 9 level if other race).
Every class has some +/-.You cant have it all.Fighter at 11 level gets the third attack, barbarian at 9 level deals 2 attacks with +3 damage each from rage.Has almost the same chances to deal crit(rec.att) with double the chances to hit(rec.att again) for increased crit damage.Plus effectively double hp with the bear resistance.

The game is balanced so brutal critical is one of many little things barbarian has.
EDIT: I agree with silveralen on the one handed weapon setup.If you combine it with rec.att you will probably hit everytime while higher AC helps you not beeing hit often as you would be without a shield.

[silveralen]

But, again, we are discussing whether the extra damage from multiple weapon dice justifies using a two handed weapon over a single handed, or as you mention two one handed weapons. The larger dice helps more when you crit, but is the larger damage worth the tradeoff elsewhere?

[Balor777]

But, again, we are discussing whether the extra damage from multiple weapon dice justifies using a two handed weapon over a single handed, or as you mention two one handed weapons. The larger dice helps more when you crit, but is the larger damage worth the tradeoff elsewhere?

The problem with barbarian lies in the "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you arent wearing heavy armor"
While a fighter can get 20 AC at 4-5 level with a shield and full plate,Barbarian will have to invest 18 at Dex and Con to get 20AC.
The soonest this would happen is at 8 level if my calculations are correct, but with the cost of haviing 16 STR.
Its not bad if you use recless attack for the advantage and you get the +2/3 damage from rage.,But still at the same setup
The fighter will have probably 20STR(+2 at rolls +2 damage more than the BArb) instead of 16 and 3 DR from heavy armor master without disadvantage VS the enemy attack rolls but with around 20 hp less and without the +4 from DEX to the reflexST.
It needs more time to do the math but it can happen and at the end barbarrian will deal a little less damage for more survivability.
Attacking with 2 weapons needs a 1lvl dip in fighter to get the style and one feat but you get your rage damage one more time.
Plus at 5th lvl+ you will have 30% to crit per round with recless attack.If your DM gives you magic 2 weapons TWF gets really good later with barbarian imo.

[Uthgar21]

The problem with barbarian lies in the "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you arent wearing heavy armor"
While a fighter can get 20 AC at 4-5 level with a shield and full plate,Barbarian will have to invest 18 at Dex and Con to get 20AC.
The soonest this would happen is at 8 level if my calculations are correct, but with the cost of haviing 16 STR.
Its not bad if you use recless attack for the advantage and you get the +2/3 damage from rage.,But still at the same setup
The fighter will have probably 20STR(+2 at rolls +2 damage more than the BArb) instead of 16 and 3 DR from heavy armor master without disadvantage VS the enemy attack rolls but with around 20 hp less and without the +4 from DEX to the reflexST.
It needs more time to do the math but it can happen and at the end barbarrian will deal a little less damage for more survivability.
Attacking with 2 weapons needs a 1lvl dip in fighter to get the style and one feat but you get your rage damage one more time.
Plus at 5th lvl+ you will have 30% to crit per round with recless attack.If your DM gives you magic 2 weapons TWF gets really good later with barbarian imo.
And that's why the Barbarian is a tank and the fighter an offtank! :smallwink:

[Balor777]

And that's why the Barbarian is a tank and the fighter an offtank! :smallwink:
I highly believe barbarian will deal more damage from the fighter with the -5attack+10damage attacking reclessly.
Lets see withouth the "power attack"
Both 20STR at 8 level with Maul attacking a Chain devil(CR8 AC16)
Both attack with +8 to attack roll +5 to damage(barb +2 from rage)
They miss for rolls 1 to 8 on the D20(at 8 level).
For the sake of math both have silvered weapons. :)
Barbarian attacks with recless attack.
Barbaian:
1-(8/20)x(8/20)=84% to hit and deals 2d6+7 for average 14 damage per swing -16% miss chance= 11.7per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 23.5 damage per round.
At 11 level 88% to hit +1 extra damage from rage -...->26.4 per round

Fighter: 1-8/20=60% to hit dealing 2d6 +5 reroling 1-2s for ~14 damage per swing -40% miss chance= 8.4 damage per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 16.8 damage per round.
At 11 level 65% to hit +1 extra attack -...->27.3 per round



The Chain Devil now:
+8 to hit 2 attacks per round for 2d6+4 damage.
Fighter has 18AC(full plate) barbarian has 16AC.

Vs the barbarian who has disadvantage(reckless attack)
1-(8/20)x(8/20)=84% to hit and deals 2d6+4 for average 11 damage per swing -16% miss chance= 9.25 per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 18.5 damage per round - 50% from rage ressistance 9.25 per round suffered.

Vs the fighter
1-10/20=50 to hit and deals 2d6+4 for average 11 damage per swing -50% miss chance= 5.5 per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 11 damage per round suffered.

Without power attack barbarian deals AND suffers less damage.Till fighter gets extra attack.
Now with power attack at 11 level
Barbarian:
1-(13/20)x(13/20)=58% to hit and deals 2d6+18 for average 25 damage per swing -42% miss chance= 14.5per swing
x2 for 2 attacks per round= 29 damage per round.
Fighter 1-13/20=35% to hit and deals ~24 damage per swing - 65% miss chance = 8.4 per swing.
3x attacks per round =25.2 damage.

Im not taking into accound Action surge( and criticals) cause its once per short rest for one attack or frenzy that is 1 minute per day.
In fact 8lvl barbarian on Frenzy will take out that CR8 chain devil solo at 3 rounds EASY while the rest of the party can tie their shoe laces or fix their hair etc.

[CrusaderJoe]

So at what level would one suggest giving a Frenzy Barbarian an ability or magic item which can reduce levels of exhaustion for free, a limited times per day of course.

I absolutely hate Frenzy because of all the reasons stated by others. I figured if I ever get around to DMing again then doing something with the Frenzy barbarian might make it more appealing.

[silveralen]

So at what level would one suggest giving a Frenzy Barbarian an ability or magic item which can reduce levels of exhaustion for free, a limited times per day of course.

I absolutely hate Frenzy because of all the reasons stated by others. I figured if I ever get around to DMing again then doing something with the Frenzy barbarian might make it more appealing.

lvl 8-12 personally.

The idea being that, by that point, other classes have a chance to get their bonus action attack from a feat, if they choose, so barbarian getting to do it a few times per day seems fine.

Personally I'm inclined to simply let him use frenzy when raging for free at some point. You still have a cap on the free usage due to the cap on rages. Bit powerful to get at lvl 3, I might outright replace the level 10 feature with this. Or let him make a relentless rage check (which does increase DC, so not too powerful) at the end of a rage to avoid exhaustion. Just some spitball ideas.

[CrusaderJoe]

lvl 8-12 personally.

The idea being that, by that point, other classes have a chance to get their bonus action attack from a feat, if they choose, so barbarian getting to do it a few times per day seems fine.

Personally I'm inclined to simply let him use frenzy when raging for free at some point. You still have a cap on the free usage due to the cap on rages. Bit powerful to get at lvl 3, I might outright replace the level 10 feature with this. Or let him make a relentless rage check (which does increase DC, so not too powerful) at the end of a rage to avoid exhaustion. Just some spitball ideas.

Oh yeah, eventually free frenzy would be nice. Of course level 20 means they never run out of frenzies... But by that level something that powerful would be fine...

[Balor777]

To add in your guide if you like.
A question i made to MikeMearls via twitter:

QUESTION: @mikemearls If the weapon is one size larger from the creature using it the attack has disadvantage.(DMG)This applies for for PCs? Thanks!


ANSWER:@KasapisLefteris I'd use that rule, but also stipulate that the PC cannot gain advantage with that weapon.

We have Green light on the barbarian for 2d12 Large Greataxe using recless attack.

[CrusaderJoe]

To add in your guide if you like.
A question i made to MikeMearls via twitter:

QUESTION: @mikemearls If the weapon is one size larger from the creature using it the attack has disadvantage.(DMG)This applies for for PCs? Thanks!


ANSWER:@KasapisLefteris I'd use that rule, but also stipulate that the PC cannot gain advantage with that weapon.

We have Green light on the barbarian for 2d12 Large Greataxe using recless attack.


Not really.

Mike has already stated for rules questions the main head hancho is The Sage. So if The Sage agrees with Mearles then yeah but if the Sage doesn't then the Sage overrides Mearles by Mearles own words.

2d12 Greataxe sounds fun

[Balor777]

Mike has already stated for rules questions the main head hancho is The Sage. So if The Sage agrees with Mearles then yeah but if the Sage doesn't then the Sage overrides Mearles by Mearles own words.

Who is this Sage?

[NeoSeraphi]

If you can't gain advantage with the weapon then you can't use Reckless Attack with it. :smallconfused:

Also where would you even get a Large greataxe? No one could craft one reliably.

[CrusaderJoe]

Who is this Sage?

Jeremy Crawford (I keep forgetting his real name haha).

[Balor777]

If you can't gain advantage with the weapon then you can't use Reckless Attack with it. :smallconfused:

Also where would you even get a Large greataxe? No one could craft one reliably.

I dont think thats what he meant.At the end you dont get advantage with rec.att. when you are attacking with disavantage.You are canceling the disadvantage.He probably mentioned you cannot gain advantage at attacking.

At he end its more like a RP rule cause if you look at my post yesterday the same STR same LVL fighter/Barbarian
Barbarrian has a good 25% more chances to hit from the fighter due to advantage.When you will be using large weapon you will attack WITHOUT advantage anymore. To actualy make the same barbarrian (20str 8lvl) to attack with 85% probability without advantage that chain devil (16AC) you need to be at least 17 level with a +2 weapon...Actualy attacking with recless attack eaquals roughly a +4/+5 to attack bonus.Its PERFETLY balanced to loose 4/5 attack roll to get +~7 damage on hit.Its actualy less powerfull from the -5+10 you get from the feat as it should cause its not a feat.

It is not a buff rule.It an RP/fluff rule.


[QUOTE=CrusaderJoe;18691622]Jeremy Crawford (I keep forgetting his real name haha).
I asked Jeremy to but he didnt answered :)


About the weapon sizes 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d12/2d6->2d12/4d6 you cant equip bigger than Large size weapons.
You allways equip 1 damage size larger.You wont wield a large 2d8 longsword in one hand probably the biggest you will wield onehand is GSword/GAxe.And double that two handed.Like the usual 1d6+1d6 TWF equals 1d12 or 2d6 2handed.You MAY let players to wield a large 2d8 battleaxe in each hand with the dual wielder feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's not how it works. If you always have disadvantage you can never gain advantage anyway. Two advantages and one disadvantage always cancel each other out. His rule about not being able to gain advantage sounds more to me like you can never cancel the disadvantage.

[Balor777]

He replied again:

Q:@mikemearls Im sure you undestood that i had Barbarian in mind. :)
So Large longsword(2d8) or Maul as biggest one-hand?
Big thank you.


A:@KasapisLefteris i think that's reasonable - keep in mind that's not an official rule, just what i'd use at my table.

His opinion and the reality of math make this rule work in my table aAlltho i highly believe you could still
do better loosing that +4/+5 extra chance you get from recless attack by using -5+10 from the feat.Its a better use.

As i said its more like a fluff/style/RP rule :)

[Uthgar21]

A:@KasapisLefteris

Ela mwri patrida! :P

[Balor777]

Χαχα απιστευτο!

[NeoSeraphi]

He replied again:

Q:@mikemearls Im sure you undestood that i had Barbarian in mind. :)
So Large longsword(2d8) or Maul as biggest one-hand?
Big thank you.


A:@KasapisLefteris i think that's reasonable - keep in mind that's not an official rule, just what i'd use at my table.

His opinion and the reality of math make this rule work in my table aAlltho i highly believe you could still
do better loosing that +4/+5 extra chance you get from recless attack by using -5+10 from the feat.Its a better use.

As i said its more like a fluff/style/RP rule :)

It's not a rule, period. It's not in the DMG or the PHB, and thus I will not encourage players to bug their DMs about it. That's against the spirit of this new game, which is Rule 0 over Player Agency. If it works at others' tables, that's fine, but this handbook is for everyone.

[CrusaderJoe]

It's not a rule, period. It's not in the DMG or the PHB, and thus I will not encourage players to bug their DMs about it. That's against the spirit of this new game, which is Rule 0 over Player Agency. If it works at others' tables, that's fine, but this handbook is for everyone.

Well I agree that something like that shouldn't be in a guide (a tweet on a obscure meh ruling). I mean it isn't like the tweet is about changing frenzy to something... Good. Then yeah that would need to be in a guide.

Anyways I'm about to go into the pages of math but I figured I would ask my question before doing so but...

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian 18 (or whatever). Take twf from the fighter style and take the Duel Wielder feat (say from human varient).

You will get three attacka per turn. All three will gain all modifiers to damage (rage and modifier) 3d8+27 each round (not including crits) for when you wield two battle axes... 33 - 51 dmg.

I know there was math on Dex versus Str but did anyone do the math on this?

[Balor777]

What about Fighter 2/Barbarian 18 (or whatever). Take twf from the fighter style and take the Duel Wielder feat (say from human varient).

He deals awesome damage actualy.I just would only dip 1 level in fighter so i wont delay by another level ASI/FEATS rage damage etc.

Look at the math i did because ive read many times that barbarian is mediocre at damage dealing.
You will be surprised by the results.I calculated also critical change(19-20 for the fighter)+brutal crit(non half orc)+damage+miss chance.
At character level 11 when the fighter gets the extra attack.The dual wielder combinations have the feat for D8 weapons.The GS fighter has
the great weapon style calculated.Barbarian with GS/GA does not have this.But the dual wielder/duelist barbarian has 1 lvl dip for these styles.
Average hit chance is +24% for the recless attack.
Check the average damage per round(all attacks) for each class combination.
output (6d{1..2:2,3..6:8}+15+d6*30/100)*60/100 named "Great Sword w/ GWF lvl 11 fighter 19-20 CRIT"
output (4d8+20+d8*40/100)*60/100 named "DUAL WIELDER lvl fighter 11 19-20 CRIT"
output (4d6+16+2d6*20/100)*84/100 named "GS barbarian 11 +rage+recless attack"
output (2d12+16+2d12*20/100)*84/100 named "Great Axe barbarian lvl 11+rage+recless attack "
output (3d8+24+2d8*30/100)*84/100 named "DUAL WIELDER 1LVLFighter(TWF)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack "
output (2d8+20+2d8*20/100)*84/100 named "DUELIST STYLE1LVLFighter(DS)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack"
output (3d8+30+2d8*30/100)*84/100 named "DUELIST STYLE Frenzy 1LVLFighter(DS)/10lvlbarbarian+rage+recless attack"
output (3d12+24+2d12*30/100)*84/100 named "GrAxe frenzyBerzerker 11lvl+reclessatt"
output (6d{1..2:2,3..6:8}+24+2d6*30/100)*84/100 named "GreatSword w/GWF lvl1fighter LVL10BARB +FRENZY +RAGE +RECATTACK"

http://postimg.org/image/liijs1iud/

Edit: the last one with "GreatSword w/GWF lvl1fighter LVL10BARB +FRENZY +RAGE +RECATTACK" deals massive damage.Almost double(~95%) from the fighter at the same level with the same style/weapon.
Its 42.1 damage per round for the SUPER 421 damage per frenzy duration,again misses/crits included. Frenzy is not bad at all.Its like an insurance against that "final boss-i may die battles".What could you ask more?
The same goes for the totem TWF barbarian.He deals VERY good damage.Its actualy the best DPR non Berzerker setup you can make

http://postimg.org/image/liijs1iud/

[Ralanr]

I've been thinking on my character build lately and I'd like some manly advice. I just hit level 6 on my barb and I'm not liking my sword and board style. I decided at level 8 I'd pick my first feat and it'd be a weapon specialty feat. Problem is that I can decide to go two handed (and if that should be great axe or greatsword/maul) or dual wielding. Dual wielding gives me a bit more freedom to grapple people (or put a weapon away and draw a throwing weapon) but two handed gives my more reasons to use reckless attack (I'm playing it safer than I should).

Here are my stats: I'm a white dragonborn
Str:18
Dex:16
Con:18
Int:12
Wis:14
Cha:16

Totem barbarian, bear and aspect of bear.

My feat plan is:
8: weapon feat
12: max strength
16: resilient or savage attacker
19: opposite of 16

I have no desire to use a polearm.

Also, think it's ok to shove a guy with the handle of the weapon?

[MustacheFart]

Then you are willfully letting your personal bias prevent you from outlining and giving proper merit to all of the available options. That downgrades this guide from being a "guide about Barbarians" to a guide about "how NeoSeraphi thinks Barbarians should be played".
The former is obviously a more useful tool than the latter.

I honestly figured this out from his first post when I saw all the "manly" stereotypical crap. It's evident that, like many others, he falls into the same pitfalls of barbarian backed by ridiculous assumptions made by people over the years supported only by mis-interpretations of rules and notions of non-existent rules.

As someone trying to fight such stereotypes I appropriately dismissed this guide as incomplete and invalid.

[Enoan]

My current character is Erarod, the lawful good Dragonborn Barbarian-8 and Rouge-2. Got some fun abilities, as a totem warrior of the goat, a totem my DM home brewed, I get some nice things. It is working out well, and, depending on situation, weild either my greataxe or a rapier. Totem of the goat seem inferior to the other totems, but is a lot of fun (includes wallwalker).

[MaxWilson]

Inspiring Leader: Once per long rest, you can spend ten minutes giving your team up to 25 temporary hit points. It's nice. But it's not that nice.

Once per short rest. It's approximately as good as Healer.

[PoeticDwarf]

Why is frenzy red, one niveau goes away when you finish a long rest. It is THE ability of a berserker, if you want to be the damage dealer. You go for variant humand with GWM, and go for a possible damage of 6d6+48, with reckless attack...

[LordVonDerp]

Why is frenzy red, one niveau goes away when you finish a long rest. It is THE ability of a berserker, if you want to be the damage dealer. You go for variant humand with GWM, and go for a possible damage of 6d6+48, with reckless attack...

Two reasons.
One, the penalty is too high, exhaustion is a serious penalty and fixing it is a waste of spells. So the only time you'll really use it is when you know you can rest afterwards.
Two, most barbarians worth their salt already have a guaranteed bonus action attack anyway, so the benefit from frenzy is somewhat pointless.

[Squeak]

New barbarian player here. I was thinking of making a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian with a 27 point initial stat layout of:

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 12
CHR 8

This would let me take two level -ups in stats to end up with STR 20 and CON 16 (before capstone) while still allowing me to have 3 juicy feats. My first thought was Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master but I am not sure what might be a good final feat - perhaps Lucky, Sentinel or Mageslayer or even just another +2 into CON. I also considered going Dwarf for 3 Feats with 18 CON and 10 WIS, or Human where I could get 4 feats with 16 CON.

Any thoughts or advice?

[Strill]

New barbarian player here. I was thinking of making a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian with a 27 point initial stat layout of:

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 12
CHR 8

This would let me take two level -ups in stats to end up with STR 20 and CON 16 (before capstone) while still allowing me to have 3 juicy feats. My first thought was Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master but I am not sure what might be a good final feat - perhaps Lucky, Sentinel or Mageslayer or even just another +2 into CON. I also considered going Dwarf for 3 Feats with 18 CON and 10 WIS, or Human where I could get 4 feats with 16 CON.

Any thoughts or advice?

Swap STR and CON. 14+2 STR and 15+1 CON. It gives you extra health earlier with no drawbacks.

[MaxWilson]

New barbarian player here. I was thinking of making a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian with a 27 point initial stat layout of:

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 12
CHR 8

This would let me take two level -ups in stats to end up with STR 20 and CON 16 (before capstone) while still allowing me to have 3 juicy feats. My first thought was Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master but I am not sure what might be a good final feat - perhaps Lucky, Sentinel or Mageslayer or even just another +2 into CON. I also considered going Dwarf for 3 Feats with 18 CON and 10 WIS, or Human where I could get 4 feats with 16 CON.

Any thoughts or advice?

Lucky and Sentinel are both great defensive picks for a barbarian--but also consider Tough for the hilarity of a barbarian who simply will not die.

[Naanomi]

Hilldwarf level 20, can end up with 24/14/24 physical stats under standard point buy and still have toughness feat... Max HP go!

[dropbear8mybaby]

Had a half-orc barbarian in a game the other day that just refused to die. As the cleric in the party, I'd given him the benefit of Aid & Bless, so a second-level PC with 30 hit points and hitting things for 1d12+5 and 5 + 1d4 to hit. He managed to crit three times in one encounter doing 3d12 damage each time due to being a half-orc. Got dropped to -17 in one hit but of course, Relentless Endurance kicked in. Then he got knocked down again and I healed him back up with a Healing Word. Hit stuff, got knocked down. Rolled a natural 20 on a death saving throw, got back up. Then he got knocked down again and I used my entire Channel Divinity: Preserve Life on him to heal him up to 15. Kicked ass. Got knocked down again (he was soloing a massive earth elemental that was doing a ton of damage). Rolled a natural 20 on a death saving throw again.

It was hilarious :)

[Squeak]

New barbarian player here. I was thinking of making a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian with a 27 point initial stat layout of:

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 12
CHR 8

This would let me take two level -ups in stats to end up with STR 20 and CON 16 (before capstone) while still allowing me to have 3 juicy feats. My first thought was Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master but I am not sure what might be a good final feat - perhaps Lucky, Sentinel or Mageslayer or even just another +2 into CON. I also considered going Dwarf for 3 Feats with 18 CON and 10 WIS, or Human where I could get 4 feats with 16 CON.


Swap STR and CON. 14+2 STR and 15+1 CON. It gives you extra health earlier with no drawbacks.

Great point, thanks!


Lucky and Sentinel are both great defensive picks for a barbarian--but also consider Tough for the hilarity of a barbarian who simply will not die.


Hilldwarf level 20, can end up with 24/14/24 physical stats under standard point buy and still have toughness feat... Max HP go!

I hadn't actually thought of the Tough feat and this could lead to hilarious situations - I think a 20th level Hill Dwarf with maxed 24 CON and racial benefits would end up, using the standard 7HP level ups, on:

(12+7) + 19*(7+7) + 40 = 325 HP

and effectively double that given rage, for an insane 650 EHP during combat. Ancient Red Dragons will have nothing on this barb. Well, except flying :frown: and even then there is always the Totemic Attunement of the Eagle :smile: ...


Also how dangerous is failing a WIS save, and how common are they at higher levels?


Because a more resilient(!) variant that occurred to me was a Mountain Dwarf with Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master and Resilient (WIS) with starting stats:

STR 15+2
DEX 12
CON 15+2
INT 8
WIS 13
CHR 8

This would end up at 20 STR 18 CON and 14 WIS before the capstone. Are WIS saves dangerous enough that this is a good idea? Because in this case I was thinking a Dwarf Fighter (I know shame on me) for 3*Indomitable might be a better choice. Or alternatively a Mountain Dwarf Barbarian going

STR 15+2
DEX 12
CON 15+2
INT 8
WIS 13
CHR 8

and ending up at 20 STR, 18 CON, 14 WIS but getting both Resilient (WIS) and Lucky.

So it really depends on how dangerous failing a WIS save is at higher levels, and how common they are. Any thoughts?


P.s. That was a hilarious story, dropbear8mybaby....

[Malifice]

Also how dangerous is failing a WIS save, and how common are they at higher levels?

Highly dangerous, and extremely common.

Doiminate effects and so forth. Anything that takes your mind over or makes you act against your will is wisdom.

It's the most important save alongside Con.

[NeoSeraphi]

Resilient (Wis) is always worth the feat, in my opinion.

[Squeak]

Also how dangerous is failing a WIS save, and how common are they at higher levels?



Highly dangerous, and extremely common.

Doiminate effects and so forth. Anything that takes your mind over or makes you act against your will is wisdom.

It's the most important save alongside Con.


Resilient (Wis) is always worth the feat, in my opinion.


So it looks like I should really get Resilient (WIS) then.

Then the question becomes is having the Lucky feat in addition the best choice or would I be better served by another +2 CON (so 16->18 CON) or +4 DEX (So 8->12 DEX)?

[endur]

lucky> resilent in my opinion.

This will vary depending on level and how much you do between long rests.

For a single die roll, lucky is better than resilient until you hit level 20.

Yes, lucky is restricted to only three die rolls, but how often do you take more than three will saves between long rests?

The other advantage of lucky is you can use it for anything. On days when you don't take will saves, lucky is still useful. It is particularly relevant for reducing enemy critical hits, helping with death saving throws, and just about anything else that could be going wrong.

[Squeak]

lucky> resilent in my opinion.

This will vary depending on level and how much you do between long rests.

For a single die roll, lucky is better than resilient until you hit level 20.

Yes, lucky is restricted to only three die rolls, but how often do you take more than three will saves between long rests?

The other advantage of lucky is you can use it for anything. On days when you don't take will saves, lucky is still useful. It is particularly relevant for reducing enemy critical hits, helping with death saving throws, and just about anything else that could be going wrong.

Interesting point - my perhaps naive assumption would be that at high levels enemy casters will have a DC around 8+prof+casting stat = 19.

Now a Barb without Resilient (WIS) would most likely have a WIS 14 (or less) so a Will save bonus of +2. So basically a 80% fail rate even with 14 WIS. And with lucky you get two chances so that the fail rate is still 64%.

However, a Barb with Resilient (WIS) and a WIS of 14 would have a Will save bonus of +8. So a 50% fail rate, which is not great but still noticeably better than with Lucky.

Of course a good point you raised is that lucky can use be used for anything, not just will saves. Still I assume saves tend to be the most vital application, and a Barb should really not be failing CON saves much while DEX saves (AFAIK) are mainly damage and with their insane HP, Danger Sense advantage on DEX rolls, and 50% damage reduction this shouldn't be a huge issue. So the question is do people think Lucky is worth getting in addition to Resilience(WIS) if this means that my CON is 'only' 16 before capstone?

Of course if I do get Lucky and Resilience (WIS) the only way to get 4 feats and still max STR is, as far as I know, to go variant human with

STR 15+1
DEX 12
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 13
CHR 8

[Arial Black]

I'm considering a variant human Bar2/Ftr1, with TWF style, Dual wielder feat and two longswords with reckless attack and rage.

Is it worth it?

I plan on increasing Bar to level 5, then Ftr to level 4 (Champion or Battlemaster?), then Bar all the way.

[endur]

Interesting point - my perhaps naive assumption would be that at high levels enemy casters will have a DC around 8+prof+casting stat = 19.

Now a Barb without Resilient (WIS) would most likely have a WIS 14 (or less) so a Will save bonus of +2. So basically a 80% fail rate even with 14 WIS. And with lucky you get two chances so that the fail rate is still 64%.

However, a Barb with Resilient (WIS) and a WIS of 14 would have a Will save bonus of +8. So a 50% fail rate, which is not great but still noticeably better than with Lucky.


level 17-20 (prof +6) is an edge case. To understand the real benefit of lucky vs. resilience, you need to look at the comparison at each level, including easy, typical, and hard saves. It is actually a distribution, see the example below where I treated lucky as advantage, where lucky is usually better than resilience for levels 1-12, and resilience is usually better for levels 13-20. Of course, this will itself depend on what sort of DCs your GM sends at you. Of course, you don't face many saving throws at low levels (so lucky's other uses are also more important -- you might take lucky at low level and take resilient at higher level when you face more saving throws). Your campaign might start at high level (in which case take resilient) or it may never reach high level (in which case lucky is clearly better).

Lucky is further restricted by only 3 per long rest, but you get to decide whether to use it after you roll the first die roll, so that alleviates the three per day restriction (i.e. decide after your roll low). EDIT: Also the numbers below aren't quite right -- Lucky isn't really advantage, you use it after you fail the first roll, so the real benefit of lucky is that you get your base success chance after failing the first time. i.e. if you fail the first time on a 20% success chance, you get another 20% success chance to succeed. It works out to seeming like the numbers below, but it is slightly different. There is also the possibility that you don't know what the DC is and lucky could result in you having a worse result when you re-roll a number you shouldn't re-roll.

Example (IF LUCKY WAS ADVANTAGE):
Very Hard: If the base saving throw is 20%, then lucky is worth a 16% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-8 and worse then resilience at levels 9-20.

Hard: If the base saving throw is 30%, then lucky is worth a 21% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-12 and worse then resilience at levels 13-20.

Typical: If the base saving throw is 40%, then lucky is worth a 24% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-12 and worse then resilience at levels 13-20.

Easy: If the base saving throw is 50%, then lucky is worth a 25% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-12, same at lvl 13-16, and worse then resilience at levels 17-20.

Very Easy: If the base save is 60%, then lucky is worth a 24% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-12 and worse then resilience at levels 13-20.

Super Easy: If the base saving throw is 70%, then lucky is worth a 21% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-12 and worse then resilience at levels 13-20.

Super, Super, Easy: If the base saving throw is 80%, then lucky is worth a 16% increase.
Lucky is better for levels 1-8 and worse then resilience at levels 9-20.

[Squeak]

Thanks for the detailed calculations, endur - it does seems that Lucky is probably better for the first 12 levels for Will Saves and has many other uses too.

I'll probably go for Resilient (WIS) simply because the extra +1 will get me an even score in WIS, but otherwise I can see your point that Lucky may well be the better option.

[Scroofy]

Hey everyone,

I am playing in my second campaign in a couple of weeks and want to play a barbarian. I was thinking of going mountain dwarf since it's a race that really appeals to me. I would like to run my starting build off and get some advice moving forward. I have the same dm as last game so I would expect to get to Lvl 15 or so. I plan on using a great axe and no armor for as long as it makes sense.

Str: 16+3
Dex: 14+2
Con: 16+3
Int: 8-1
Wis: 12+1
Cha:10+0

Should go for feats, or add to my ability points? Was thinking going gwf since everyone here seems to say it is good.

Cheers!

[Squeak]

Hey everyone,

I am playing in my second campaign in a couple of weeks and want to play a barbarian. I was thinking of going mountain dwarf since it's a race that really appeals to me. I would like to run my starting build off and get some advice moving forward. I have the same dm as last game so I would expect to get to Lvl 15 or so. I plan on using a great axe and no armor for as long as it makes sense.

Str: 16+3
Dex: 14+2
Con: 16+3
Int: 8-1
Wis: 12+1
Cha:10+0

Should go for feats, or add to my ability points? Was thinking going gwf since everyone here seems to say it is good.

Cheers!


Polearm Master is the highest DPS boost you can get for an ASI, as you get an extra attack with full damage modifiers per round which is a huge boost, not even mentioning its other goodies. Now if your STR and CON were both odd values, then maybe you could make a so-so case for boosting them by 1 each, but as it is definitely get the feat.

[Scroofy]

Polearm Master is the highest DPS boost you can get for an ASI, as you get an extra attack with full damage modifiers per round which is a huge boost, not even mentioning its other goodies. Now if your STR and CON were both odd values, then maybe you could make a so-so case for boosting them by 1 each, but as it is definitely get the feat.

Do I have to be wielding a pole-arm to take advantage of that feat or can it be anything?

[Squeak]

Do I have to be wielding a pole-arm to take advantage of that feat or can it be anything?

You have to be using a Polearm, so 1d10 damage rather than 1d12 or 2d6 base damage but the extra attack and other benefits are worth it.

[Coidzor]

Do I have to be wielding a pole-arm to take advantage of that feat or can it be anything?

From what I recall, the weapons it works with are explicitly listed out in the feat itself. I believe the only non-polearm weapon it works with is the quarterstaff which is still a pole. Probably meant to represent fighting with both ends of it during combat or something, but it also works when wielding it one-handed and wearing a shield, too, IIRC.

[Scroofy]

Thanks for the replies! I think I will do the Polearm Master. It just makes the motor St sense bang for buck

[MeeposFire]

From what I recall, the weapons it works with are explicitly listed out in the feat itself. I believe the only non-polearm weapon it works with is the quarterstaff which is still a pole. Probably meant to represent fighting with both ends of it during combat or something, but it also works when wielding it one-handed and wearing a shield, too, IIRC.

True but since we are talking about barbarians unless you are using a small character, in which case the quarter staff may just be your best weapon overall with a shield, you probably want to use a weapon with the heavy property since reckless attack really helps the great weapon feat.

[Asmotherion]

If you have 20 Str and the Dex barb has 20 Dex, then their damage should be 1d12+7 vs 1d8+5. If you can't use Reckless Attack, and you can't use the Rage Damage bonus from Rage, then how on earth could he out damage the Dex barb?

Your spreadsheet doesn't answer the question. If, at level 5, I have a Str 20 barb who does 1d12+7 while raging, and a Dex 20 barb who does 1d8+5 while raging, there is no way the Dex barb is outdamaging the Str barb.

Edit: Oh, you're talking about a Dex barb versus a Str barb. I don't care about that. Why would two barbarians fight each other? I'm going off the assumption that you're fighting, you know, monsters. Like you would at a table. In that case, Dex doesn't help you do either of your jobs (tanking or DPS) better than a Str barb does.

Because Barbarians are known to solve their diferences over a cup of tea...
This is hillarius in so many ways... like "why would two guys who's primary interest in life is bashing skulls would ever fight... they would probably sit on a table, and discuse their passion drinking tea and eating muffins" XD

Ok, I konw you mean that it won't happen on a regular table, but:

A) A lot of people make characters for duels.
B) Some DMs, myself included, build some NPCs as characters instead of taking them ready from the MM.
C) If two Barbarians are in the same party, what are the odds of them NOT fighting?

Still, I just wanted to make this comment, cause, when I saw it, I literally bursted into laughs. No critisicm or ill intention, just pure humor XD

[Coidzor]

True but since we are talking about barbarians unless you are using a small character, in which case the quarter staff may just be your best weapon overall with a shield, you probably want to use a weapon with the heavy property since reckless attack really helps the great weapon feat.

There is possibly something to be said for a one-handed quarterstaff wielded by a grappler barbarian who wants to get in more hits on an enemy after they've been grappled and shoved prone, or to get off extra attacks against non-grappled foes after locking down their grappled foe. Or a sword and board bearbearian who wants to consistently get a bonus action to use to attack with.

But for the most part, usually better to just go with one of the d10 polearm weapons between brutal critical and the like.

[MeeposFire]

There is possibly something to be said for a one-handed quarterstaff wielded by a grappler barbarian who wants to get in more hits on an enemy after they've been grappled and shoved prone, or to get off extra attacks against non-grappled foes after locking down their grappled foe. Or a sword and board bearbearian who wants to consistently get a bonus action to use to attack with.

But for the most part, usually better to just go with one of the d10 polearm weapons between brutal critical and the like.

Well except small characters cannot use those traditional polearms hence why I said for a small character the quarter staff is probably the best option since two handed weapons likely are not good enough without the great weapon fighting feat.

[Arcuriel]

A couple of comments:

1. Exhaustion goes down a level after each long rest. Frenzy isn't something to spam, but if you're fairly sure it's the last encounter of the day you don't really lose anything.

2. Mounted Combatant+Stout Halfling. Ride your friends. Force attacks on yourself. Even better with Retaliation, since you can guarantee the attack is going to you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1. Exhaustion goes down a level after each long rest. Frenzy isn't something to spam, but if you're fairly sure it's the last encounter of the day you don't really lose anything.The issue is that, for Frenzy to be competitive with totem features, it would have to provide its extra attack consistently. As is, you can get a bonus action attack with a feat, never suffer any exhaustion, and get cool totem features.
2. Mounted Combatant+Stout Halfling. Ride your friends. Force attacks on yourself. Even better with Retaliation, since you can guarantee the attack is going to you.Halfling is a little odd for a barbarian (no heavy weapons), and you wouldn't be making good use of half the benefit of the feat very well (advantage on melee attacks against foes smaller than the mount), but I can see how this gets fun if your mount friend takes Sentinel. Try to attack either character? You attack the raging halfling either way, and eat reaction attacks.

[Malifice]

The issue is that, for Frenzy to be competitive with totem features, it would have to provide its extra attack consistently. As is, you can get a bonus action attack with a feat,

A feat that the Frenzy barbarian used to pump his Str by +2.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A feat that the Frenzy barbarian used to pump his Str by +2.That's factored in. Polearm Master or GWM compare favorably to Frenzy (no exhaustion + other bennies), and the totem benefits compare favorably to +2 STR.

[Coidzor]

That's factored in. Polearm Master or GWM compare favorably to Frenzy (no exhaustion + other bennies), and the totem benefits compare favorably to +2 STR.

Also Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Mastery are both supposed to compare favorably to +2 Strength.

Tanking magic and environmental damage, giving allies consistent Advantage, and limited flight are all more situational than having a bonus action attack for an entire combat, but their effects seem to be in the same ballpark and better than Frenzy when their niche comes up.

[MaxWilson]

Also Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Mastery are both supposed to compare favorably to +2 Strength.

Tanking magic and environmental damage, giving allies consistent Advantage, and limited flight are all more situational than having a bonus action attack for an entire combat, but their effects seem to be in the same ballpark and better than Frenzy when their niche comes up.

Also, advantage on all Strength checks, ever, even when not raging is pretty fantastic.

[Coidzor]

Also, advantage on all Strength checks, ever, even when not raging is pretty fantastic.

Well, conceivably there's some way for there to be a Strength check that doesn't fall under the aegis of the Bear Totem's 6th level benefit, but it does cover most of the ones one would be interested in.

[MaxWilson]

Well, conceivably there's some way for there to be a Strength check that doesn't fall under the aegis of the Bear Totem's 6th level benefit, but it does cover most of the ones one would be interested in.

Whoops! I misremembered--forgot there was a qualifier. The most important Strength checks are the ones you make in combat when grappling/pushing, and Might of the Bear actually doesn't help with that (although Rage does). So never mind, it's not fantastic after all. My bad for posting when AFB.

[MasterMercury]

Where are the elemental evil races for Barbarian? Genasi would make great barbarians, with a +2 to constitution, a optional +1 to strength, and Constitution based spell casting! The spells can give the barbarian a much better utility, and the idea of a barbarian literally made of stone is awesome.

[MrGoodbytes87]

Role
Frenzy - It's so disappointing. Such a great ability that is ruined by the system, not the ability itself. The problem here is that levels of exhaustion can only be removed one at a time by the greater restoration spell, which is only available to clerics and druids, costs 100 gp per cast, and consumes a 5th level spell slot (so you only get it at 9th level and onward). So in a game where you are expecting to run into 6 encounters a day at all levels, wearing yourself out is not something you want to do, ever.



Not so, my good man. According to the PHB, a long rest removes a level of exhaustion, provided you've eaten and drank. Secondly, Bards also get Greater Restoration , although it's still not ideal to have them burn a high spell slot just to fix an exhaustion.) Also if you check through the DMG, there are different rest options, including 'Epic Heroism' wherein you can make a long rest in an hour (not how I'd run a game, but acceptable) AND, depending on your DM, it may be house ruled that a long rest completely removes all exhaustion levels (which I might do if it ever becomes an issue in my games). Finally, there's a rare item 'Potion of Vitality' which, among other things, can cure exhaustion.

Not that any of these (except DM houserulings) fix the issue with Frenzy, (it does still pale in comparison to the totem paths) but I think it might be enough to raise it from red to purple or black.

[Oramac]

Mobile: Interesting feat. Makes you super fast. Not a good or bad option.

Having played with a Barb using Mobile, I would honestly rate this Blue.

After 5th level, you've got 50 feet of movement, and if you attack an enemy, you don't provoke OA's from them. Since Extra Attack allows you to attack more than one target, you can literally attack one guy, run 50 feet to another enemy and attack it.

Or, you can get into combat faster than anyone else, stay in melee better than (almost) anyone else, and never provoke OA's as long as you attack the guy first.

[Klorox]

I love this guide, but I'd really like to see it edited to include the new totems from SCAG, as well as the battlerager.

[Arkhios]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I just realized something:

You can rage even while wearing heavy armor. You just won't benefit from the basic features under Rage itself (Advantage on strength checks and saving throws, bonus to melee weapon attacks, and resistance to bludgeoning/slashing/piercing damage); You'd still be under the usual penalties bestowed by rage, however.

The big thing I just noticed, is that most Primal Path features still work (except when mentioned otherwise) - even while raging and wearing heavy armor; From Player's Handbook alone, only the Totem Spirit (Eagle) still has a requirement of not wearing heavy armor. Others work just fine! (most noteworthy among them being Totem Spirit (Bear)!)

Frankly, only a handful of class features won't function while wearing heavy armor, and there are still core barbarian features that you can benefit from, even while raging.

For a pure barbarian wearing heavy armor is still sub-optimal choice, but for a few levels dip, especially for Bear Totem Barbarian, the loss of little extra damage is small compared to the resistance against almost every damage types!

[ShinigamiKenji]

I have a question about feat vs. ability score at low levels. Which seems better? (considering the traditional Half-Orc barbarian, Str, Greataxe and such)

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I have a question about feat vs. ability score at low levels. Which seems better? (considering the traditional Half-Orc barbarian, Str, Greataxe and such)

I personally think it's best to max out your strength to 20 before taking Great Weapon Master, you want your attack bonus to be as high as you can before taking GWM and using the -5 attack roll, +10 damage feature. Of course, you will probably always be recklessly attacking with that to get your hit in.

If you can get your Str and Con to 20 by level 20 and still get another feat in addition to GWM, consider Savage Attacker, that's really nice.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Great weapon wielding barbarians generally want Great Weapon Master as soon as possible. Reckless attack improves the -5/+10 trade off significantly, and the cleave effect is icing on the cake. After that, go ahead and max STR if you want, though you could very well take feats until level 20 and be fine.

I would avoid Savage Attacker, though.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Great weapon wielding barbarians generally want Great Weapon Master as soon as possible. Reckless attack improves the -5/+10 trade off significantly, and the cleave effect is icing on the cake. After that, go ahead and max STR if you want, though you could very well take feats until level 20 and be fine.

I would avoid Savage Attacker, though.

There is a stat thread out there about what bonuses advantage gives you, summarizing very basically it's worth +5 for rolls around 8-12 on a d20 and tapers lower than that the higher up you go. If your a tier one character with 16 strength and +2 proficiency, you're going to be missing a lot with GWM, even with advantage. Getting your Strength up to 20 as soon as possible is going to help both your attack and damage, obviously, but by then your proficiency plus your strength should be enough to give you a decent attack bonus with GWM and advantage from reckless attack.

Why would you avoid Savage Attacker??

[Afrodactyl]

So I'm currently devising a level 7 Half Orc Barbarian. Due to the fluff, it's going to be berserker barbarian; namely barb 5, fighter 2. I understand that the berserker barb is generally considered subpar to the totem barb, but fluff dictates that this half orc is very, very angry. About everything.

Fighter levels are for indomitable, action surge and a fighting style. However, I'm at a loss for the fighting style and the weapons to go with it.

I will either be going for battle-axe, shield and duelling fighting style, or greatsword and great weapon fighting style. Is there any kind of downside to the whole sword and board style over great weapons?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

So I'm currently devising a level 7 Half Orc Barbarian. Due to the fluff, it's going to be berserker barbarian; namely barb 5, fighter 2. I understand that the berserker barb is generally considered subpar to the totem barb, but fluff dictates that this half orc is very, very angry. About everything.

Fighter levels are for indomitable, action surge and a fighting style. However, I'm at a loss for the fighting style and the weapons to go with it.

I will either be going for battle-axe, shield and duelling fighting style, or greatsword and great weapon fighting style. Is there any kind of downside to the whole sword and board style over great weapons?

Well, consider that when a Barbarian is raging that he's getting resistance to all physical damage, he's quite a bit of a tank without having to have a high AC. If you're unarmored defense isn't too high, you can always put on some half-plate. My point being that you can do a lot more damage with a great weapon with a barbarian than going sword and board, without having to be worried about having 2 less AC from not using a shield.

I've got a level 3 barbarian right now that has AC 17 from his unarmored defense and a shield. As soon as I can invest in some half-plate, I'm gonna put that on, have AC 17 and just start wailing away with a greatsword.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There is a stat thread out there about what bonuses advantage gives you, summarizing very basically it's worth +5 for rolls around 8-12 on a d20 and tapers lower than that the higher up you go. If your a tier one character with 16 strength and +2 proficiency, you're going to be missing a lot with GWM, even with advantage. Getting your Strength up to 20 as soon as possible is going to help both your attack and damage, obviously, but by then your proficiency plus your strength should be enough to give you a decent attack bonus with GWM and advantage from reckless attack.After doing the maths for a relatively standard level 4 barbarian, if you assume you don't actually KO enemies all that often, AC 17 seems to be the cutoff point of whether +2 STR is better or GWM (higher -> STR is better). That's pretty high for this level. If you start factoring in the extra attacks from cutting down foes - which, let's face it, will happen when you're doing 1d12+15 damage - then that part of the feature starts to outweigh other factors, and the cutoff AC goes up significantly.

Why would you avoid Savage Attacker??Because it just doesn't add enough damage to merit a whole ASI. Even +2 STR is better.

[MeeposFire]

One thing to note is that the feat is more likely to be noticed. For instance if you are in a campaign that uses a lot of hobgoblins the +2 str may be better but even then you will probably notice the feat more since it makes your damage spike, you choose to use it, and gives you multiple noticeable benefits. SO even if the math is better for the atribute if you enjoy making choices and getting the big hit the feat may be the better choice for you even if the math ends up being slightly behind (which often it doesn't unless you fight high AC enemies a lot since you get advatage on demand a lot).

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Because it just doesn't add enough damage to merit a whole ASI. Even +2 STR is better.

But if you're Strength is already capped or you are starting with variant human, a good feat I think.

[Afrodactyl]

Well, consider that when a Barbarian is raging that he's getting resistance to all physical damage, he's quite a bit of a tank without having to have a high AC. If you're unarmored defense isn't too high, you can always put on some half-plate. My point being that you can do a lot more damage with a great weapon with a barbarian than going sword and board, without having to be worried about having 2 less AC from not using a shield.

So survivability shouldn't really be too much of a concern? I'm just a bit worried about only having 15 AC if I roll with a great weapon.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

So survivability shouldn't really be too much of a concern? I'm just a bit worried about only having 15 AC if I roll with a great weapon.

Oh, I agree about the AC 15 part! Like I said, I currently have a barbarian walking around unarmored except for a shield, so he's got AC 17. As soon as I can afford some half plate, which will give him AC 17 with his Dex, I'm going to start using a great weapon.

Like all classes, Barbarians are more vulnerable at levels 1-4, so I think it's wise to wait until you can bump that AC up to 17 say before you start swinging a great weapon. No doubt there's going to be someone to chime in here about how you are mathematically stupid for not using a great weapon from level 1 up with AC 15.

[ShinigamiKenji]

So survivability shouldn't really be too much of a concern? I'm just a bit worried about only having 15 AC if I roll with a great weapon.

Raging halves most damage taken (even more with Bear Totem). Saved my Barbarian a couple of times.

Add in the highest hit die in the game and your (hopefully) high Con, and you have higher survivability than most classes already.

Got GWM, by the way, and oh boy, cleaving sure is cool. Nothing like killing an enemy and landing a critical with the bonus attack. Makes you really feel a Barbarian.

Not so sure about Savage Attacker, though, I feel I'd get more bang for the buck going Sentinel, or using Lucky for extra survivability (or better dice). Maybe if it added at least a point of Strength...

[Arial Black]

Just designed a 6th level PC: Ftr 1/Bar 5 (using TWF, challenging myself :smallsmile:) and originally went with the ASI, but changed my mind because higher numbers aren't something you do and I wanted to show off my mad skillzzz so I got Defensive Duellist instead (I'm using twin silvered kukris/re-skinned scimitars).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

But if you're Strength is already capped or you are starting with variant human, a good feat I think.It's really not a good feat. Take the greataxe on a regular hit. 1d12 average is 6.5, while 2d12k1 is roughly 8.5 on average, for a difference of 2 damage on a hit. Best case for Savage Attacker is probably level 1 on a Vuman with a greataxe, since you don't have multiple attacks (Savage is max 1 hit). Sentinel, which in no way is offense-oriented, grants extra attacks of opportunity. For it to help with damage more than Savage Attacker, it would have to grant an extra attack of opportunity every 5 or so rounds, less often when raging.

Also, I like feats for generic stuff like Lucky/Alert and defensive things like Resilient: WIS and +2 CON, which lets the Barbarian keep doing his thing.

[jas61292]

It's really not a good feat. Take the greataxe on a regular hit. 1d12 average is 6.5, while 2d12k1 is roughly 8.5 on average, for a difference of 2 damage on a hit. Best case for Savage Attacker is probably level 1 on a Vuman with a greataxe, since you don't have multiple attacks (Savage is max 1 hit). Sentinel, which in no way is offense-oriented, grants extra attacks of opportunity. For it to help with damage more than Savage Attacker, it would have to grant an extra attack of opportunity every 5 or so rounds, less often when raging.

Also, I like feats for generic stuff like Lucky/Alert and defensive things like Resilient: WIS and +2 CON, which lets the Barbarian keep doing his thing.

I tend to disagree on Savage attacker, because it is not about average damage. It is about actual damage. And unlike something like Advantage, it is not really Roll 2, Keep 1. It is roll 1, and if you don't like it, try again. You don't use it when you roll a 6 on your first attack. You use it when you roll a 1 or 2 on your first attack, or on your last attack if you have not used it yet.

Average damage is very overrated in practice. What matters is not whether you do 2 more damage on average. What matters is whether or not after you hit, your enemy is still standing, and the ability to add up to 11 extra damage when you roll bad, does a far better job of this, even than adding 1 damage to every attack through more strength.

Now, is this an amazing feat? No. But its pretty good, especially for someone using a d12 weapon (like a proper barbarian). I have seen it in action, and the impact it has had is surprising. It might not be my first pick, but I would never overlook it as a barbarian.

[ShinigamiKenji]

I tend to disagree on Savage attacker, because it is not about average damage. It is about actual damage. And unlike something like Advantage, it is not really Roll 2, Keep 1. It is roll 1, and if you don't like it, try again. You don't use it when you roll a 6 on your first attack. You use it when you roll a 1 or 2 on your first attack, or on your last attack if you have not used it yet.

Average damage is very overrated in practice. What matters is not whether you do 2 more damage on average. What matters is whether or not after you hit, your enemy is still standing, and the ability to add up to 11 extra damage when you roll bad, does a far better job of this, even than adding 1 damage to every attack through more strength.

Now, is this an amazing feat? No. But its pretty good, especially for someone using a d12 weapon (like a proper barbarian). I have seen it in action, and the impact it has had is surprising. It might not be my first pick, but I would never overlook it as a barbarian.

Thing is, I actually would prefer the extra points. Math not actually done, but the extra strength helps with actually hitting the enemy.

That's especially good in lower levels, when you have little attack bonus to spare for GWM. At higher levels, it just seems to lose some of the flavor.

[ShinigamiKenji]

Sentinel, which in no way is offense-oriented, grants extra attacks of opportunity. For it to help with damage more than Savage Attacker, it would have to grant an extra attack of opportunity every 5 or so rounds, less often when raging.

It was amazing when the paladin in my group took it. Probably will take for a nice melee combo.

Also, nice to protect your glass-cannon Rogue or Monk with it. I guess it depends on the group composition: 2 melee warriors already make this worthwhile.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I tend to disagree on Savage attacker, because it is not about average damage. It is about actual damage. And unlike something like Advantage, it is not really Roll 2, Keep 1. It is roll 1, and if you don't like it, try again. You don't use it when you roll a 6 on your first attack. You use it when you roll a 1 or 2 on your first attack, or on your last attack if you have not used it yet.

Average damage is very overrated in practice. What matters is not whether you do 2 more damage on average. What matters is whether or not after you hit, your enemy is still standing, and the ability to add up to 11 extra damage when you roll bad, does a far better job of this, even than adding 1 damage to every attack through more strength.

Now, is this an amazing feat? No. But its pretty good, especially for someone using a d12 weapon (like a proper barbarian). I have seen it in action, and the impact it has had is surprising. It might not be my first pick, but I would never overlook it as a barbarian.First off, if you're worried about consistent damage, the greatsword is right over there.

Secondly, you've emphasized the supposed importance of mooks - guys whose life or death commonly depends on a single damage die roll. In this case, Sentinel improves far more than Savage Attackers, because it'll generate far more AoOs. And that's nothing compared to the offensive benefits of Polearm Master (even more AoOs) or GWM (cleave, far better kill guarantee) against these same mooks. Even +2 STR looks better, as it increases kill reliability through both damage and accuracy.

Ancillary point: The fact that you can choose when to apply Savage Attacker doesn't stop it from being 2d12k1 when you only have one hit in a round. It merely mitigates the issues brought up when you have potentially multiple hits in a round.

[jas61292]

First off, if you're worried about consistent damage, the greatsword is right over there.

Secondly, you've emphasized the supposed importance of mooks - guys whose life or death commonly depends on a single damage die roll. In this case, Sentinel improves far more than Savage Attackers, because it'll generate far more AoOs. And that's nothing compared to the offensive benefits of Polearm Master (even more AoOs) or GWM (cleave, far better kill guarantee) against these same mooks. Even +2 STR looks better, as it increases kill reliability through both damage and accuracy.

Ancillary point: The fact that you can choose when to apply Savage Attacker doesn't stop it from being 2d12k1 when you only have one hit in a round. It merely mitigates the issues brought up when you have potentially multiple hits in a round.

I'm not saying its an amazing Feat, but I believe it it one that is constantly undersold. I've seen it in play a lot (as I have seen Sentinel), and they are just completely different beasts to me. You can't just compare the damage thy do in a vacuum. The situations where sentinel comes into play are great, but are limited (including sometimes needing an ally to potentially be hurt to actually get that extra damage). Savage Attacker is not limited at all.

And yeah, yeah, Polearm Master is better. But that's easy with it being so horribly unbalanced. But that's neither here nor there.

Also, for what its worth, I never said anything about mooks. It works just as well against strong enemies. The fact is that if you need to roll a 8 to kill something, and you roll a 3, nothing else is going to finish off the enemy. And if that is your last attack, well, that may just mean they get another full turn to hurt your party. My most recent experience with this feat was as DM when a barbarian using a greataxe took it. I can't even tell you how many times it turned a weak hit into a finishing blow. Theoretically boosting damage by 2 (or really 2.76 if used optimally with a two attack character) doesn't seem like much, but the instances where it turned a 2 to a 11, where why the player took it, and those were very impactful.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can't just compare the damage thy do in a vacuum. The situations where sentinel comes into play are great, but are limited (including sometimes needing an ally to potentially be hurt to actually get that extra damage). Savage Attacker is not limited at all.I wasn't even really thinking about the "attack ally" portion. I was thinking about forcing AoOs because they want to get away from you (or to someone else) and don't realize you have Sentinel because your DM doesn't metagame. But yeah, Sentinel might do less damage if they decide to trade blows... with the tanky barbarian. I call that a win.


And yeah, yeah, Polearm Master is better. But that's easy with it being so horribly unbalanced. But that's neither here nor there.Fair enough, but (from an optimization perspective) that's a feat slot. Barbarians want that, GWM, and probably max strength. After that, Savage Attacker is competing with stuff that prevents the Barbarian from not being in the fight; I know what I'm taking.


Also, for what its worth, I never said anything about mooks. It works just as well against strong enemies. The fact is that if you need to roll a 8 to kill something, and you roll a 3, nothing else is going to finish off the enemy. And if that is your last attack, well, that may just mean they get another full turn to hurt your party.Except that happens less often per swing against a strong enemy, since most hits just chip away at the ablative defense. Average damage matters more against big piles of HP, since you can reduce the # of hits required to kill far before that last one.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I wasn't even really thinking about the "attack ally" portion. I was thinking about forcing AoOs because they want to get away from you (or to someone else) and don't realize you have Sentinel because your DM doesn't metagame. But yeah, Sentinel might do less damage if they decide to trade blows... with the tanky barbarian. I call that a win.

Fair enough, but (from an optimization perspective) that's a feat slot. Barbarians want that, GWM, and probably max strength. After that, Savage Attacker is competing with stuff that prevents the Barbarian from not being in the fight; I know what I'm taking.

Except that happens less often per swing against a strong enemy, since most hits just chip away at the ablative defense. Average damage matters more against big piles of HP, since you can reduce the # of hits required to kill far before that last one.

Bah, just go listen to your Mr. Bungle.

[hegly]

Hello,

Great guide. Thank you.

I created a Barbarian based upon this guide and chose greataxe as my primary weapon. Another player in the group rolled a fighter and chose the Dual Wielder feat (which you discourage for the Barbarian). He uses two long swords. When I attack, I roll one d12 so my min damage is 1+ my strength bonus and my max damage is 12 + my strength bonus. When the fighter attacks, he rolls two d8, so his min damage is 2 + his strength bonus and his max damage is 16 + his strength bonus.

You state that one two-handed weapon is better than two one-handed weapons. Am I missing something? Is this because you only get one bonus action per turn, so once you start getting extra attacks two-weapon attacks become less valuable?

Also, would it not be better to use a maul or a greatsword as they use two d6 for damage instead of one d12? that way you maximize your minimum damage.

Thank you.

[bjj8383]

Glad to see the old "Guide to XXX" style hasn't died out.

[Devious Shelf]

Hello,

Great guide. Thank you.

I created a Barbarian based upon this guide and chose greataxe as my primary weapon. Another player in the group rolled a fighter and chose the Dual Wielder feat (which you discourage for the Barbarian). He uses two long swords. When I attack, I roll one d12 so my min damage is 1+ my strength bonus and my max damage is 12 + my strength bonus. When the fighter attacks, he rolls two d8, so his min damage is 2 + his strength bonus and his max damage is 16 + his strength bonus.

You state that one two-handed weapon is better than two one-handed weapons. Am I missing something? Is this because you only get one bonus action per turn, so once you start getting extra attacks two-weapon attacks become less valuable?

Also, would it not be better to use a maul or a greatsword as they use two d6 for damage instead of one d12? that way you maximize your minimum damage.

Thank you.

The damage becomes better with two-handed when you use the Great Weapon Master feat. Adds +10 to damage on each hit (but also a -5 to attack). Also, in your calculations you didn't add rage damage (but that would apply to one-handed as well as two-handed weapons for the barbarian). Since a pure barbarian doesn't get the Two-Weapon fighting style you can't add your STR to the off-hand weapon damage and you can't use Great Weapon Master with a one handed attack. ( you could dip a level into fighter to pick up Two-Weapon fighting style but then you lose your level 20 primal champion boost, unlimited rages per day, and obviously you wouldn't be using Great Weapon master for the extra 10 dmg per hit)

*None of my calculations are taking into consideration the double chance for a crit while using reckless attack and obviously the higher the base die the better the chance for higher crit damage especially when combined with Brutal Critical but that is something to consider when designing your character.

Variant Human at level 1 while raging: Great Axe Min: 13+STR Max: 24+STR (but -5 to hit hurts so you won't want to use it until level 2 minimum with reckless attack for the advantage on attack rolls)
Anyone else at level 4 while raging: Great Axe Min: 13+STR Max 24+STR (-5 to hit still hurts but at least you have advantage on attacks with reckless attack)

Great Sword has a higher minimum damage which gives you more consistent damage while a Great Axe has a higher chance of giving you max damage. (Great Sword requires two dice to roll max for max damage while Great Axe only requires one die to roll max damage.) Its a slight difference in play style but they are equivalent weapons. Pick higher minimum damage or higher chance for max damage

So to recap: Two-handed weapons do better damage than Two-Weapon Fighting for pure barbarians because of Great Weapon Master and the specific Two-hander you use is based on whether you want slightly higher average damage or slightly higher chance to get max damage.

Side note: it seems to be "optimal" to use a pole-arm with Pole-arm mastery and Great Weapon Master. Slightly less damage per hit (1d10 instead of 1d12) but you can use your bonus action to make a "1d4+STR+Rage+Great Weapon Master" attack (1d4+7 STR+4 Rage+10 for a minimum 22 dmg / max of 25 dmg at level 20 w/max STR) Obviously the efficacy of this route is open for debate as a large portion of this thread has been devoted to people arguing Pole-arm vs. regular Great Weapon vs. Sword and Board vs. Dex Barbarian but sheer damage output appears to be in the pole-arm masters favor. Unless you go Berserker in which case "Technically" a regular two-hander is slightly better.

[Devious Shelf]

My personal ideas of fun barbarian concepts would be a Half-Orc Crit focused barbarian or a Hill Dwarf for the insane number of HP you can get.



*Half-Orc: Fighter 3 "Champion" / Barbarian 17 "Berserker"
Wielding Great Axe, Max Str

Half-Orc: Savage Attacks: +1d12 on Crit
Champion: Crit 19-20 (plus action surge and other nice bonuses) 10% chance to crit instead of 5%
Barbarian: Reckless Attack: Advantage on attacks = double chance to crit due to two rolls for each attack. 20% to crit instead of 5-10%
- Brutal Critical: + 3d12 on Crit.
-Frenzy +1 attack for a total of 3 per round
-Rage: +4 dmg
Great Weapon Master for +10 dmg


Half-Orc has a 20% chance per hit to crit for 5d12 + 5 (STR) + 4 + 10

Minimum dmg per hit: 20 (Non-Crit)
Maximum dmg per hit: 31 (Non-Crit)
Minium dmg per Crit: 24
Maximum dmg per Crit: is 79

If all three hit that's a possibility of 237 Points of dmg in a round without taking action surge for an additional 2 attacks in one round (395 points if all attacks+action surge Crit)

Obviously the probability of all of your attacks critting is slight but the possibility is fun.




*Hill Dwarf: 20 Barbarian (+1 HP per Level)
Toughness (+2 HP per level)
"Bear Totem"
Max Con: 24 (+7 HP per level) (Max Con is not including using a Manual to up Con further so +1 per level per Manual)

IF (big "if" I know) you roll max HP on each level you end up with 440 HP and you only take half damage while raging (thanks to bear totem) enemies have to deal 880 points of damage to take the barbarian down. Lack of AC really isn't an issue when you're dealing with that kind of HP. you can reckless attack all day without worrying about dying too much and after a long rest you're all ready to go for another fun day of not caring what tries to eat you as you bash in it's face with your two-handed weapon of choice

[GlenSmash!]

Hello,

Great guide. Thank you.

I created a Barbarian based upon this guide and chose greataxe as my primary weapon. Another player in the group rolled a fighter and chose the Dual Wielder feat (which you discourage for the Barbarian). He uses two long swords. When I attack, I roll one d12 so my min damage is 1+ my strength bonus and my max damage is 12 + my strength bonus. When the fighter attacks, he rolls two d8, so his min damage is 2 + his strength bonus and his max damage is 16 + his strength bonus.

You state that one two-handed weapon is better than two one-handed weapons. Am I missing something? Is this because you only get one bonus action per turn, so once you start getting extra attacks two-weapon attacks become less valuable?

Also, would it not be better to use a maul or a greatsword as they use two d6 for damage instead of one d12? that way you maximize your minimum damage.

Thank you.

Two Weapon fighting is very strong until level level 4 (when you can pick up a feat) or level 5 (when you get extra attack). I'll echo the advice that was already given: Pick up the Great Weapon Master feat or Polearm Master feat at level 4 and you will now be at least matching a TWF fighter for sure. Get both and you will be the melee damage king.

I'm a little weird in that my low level barbs (as long as they are Variant Humans that start with a feat) use 2 hand axes as their main weapons, until they can pick up a bonus action attack from another source (like GWM or PM). I prefer 1d6+Str+rage and 1d6+rage to 1d12 +Str+rage or 2d6+str+rage. Essentially, until you pick up another source of bonus attacks you can get extra rage damage per round by dual wielding. It's only when you start adding extra attack, bonus GWM damage, and Bonus attacks with a 2 hander that pull ahead (and it pulls FAR ahead) of dual wielding.

[Specter]

I don't know if you were joking or not, but Barbarians can't hold a candle to Rangers in terms of exploration.

[Purespoo]

No I didn't even take damage resistance into account.
I'll come up with another example which might help you better (This time I will even take the resistance into account if that makes you feel better).
At level 8 an appropriate CR monster is the Werewolf (CR 3)
At level 8, the Strength-based Barb has Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14. = 1D12+7 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 13 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
At level 8, the Dexterity-based Barb has Dex 20, Con 14. = 1D8+5 damage (While raging), +8 to-hit, 19 AC and 77 HP (And takes half damage)
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 4.45 damage per round, taking 18 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 23.8 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 18 rounds he will inflict an average of 428.4 damage before dropping.
Against the Dexterity-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 2.35 damage per round, taking 33 rounds to kill him. The Dexterity-based Barb inflicts an average of 16.6 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 33 rounds he will inflict an average of 547.8 damage before dropping.

Against enemies that are no threat, the difference doesn't really matter - both will finish their enemy without taking too much damage (Although the Dex-based guy will take less damage before killing his enemy than the Str-based guy) but against an actual challenging encounter, the Dex guy is more useful. The Dex guy survives longer and in doing so inflicts more damage than his strength-based counterpart.



I didn't take that into consideration because that ability kind of sucks. Here is what the Strength-based Barb looks like against the Werewolf if he uses it:
Against the Strength-based Barb, the Werewolf inflicts an average of 6.3675 damage per round, taking 13 rounds to kill him. The Strength-based Barb inflicts an average of 28.05 per round to the Werewolf, so in those 13 rounds he will inflict an average of 364.65 damage before dropping.
Basically, a Strength-based Barb is not only weaker than the Dexterity-based Barb by using that ability but he is also considerably weaker than a Strength-based Barb that isn't using that ability. It is rubbish.




I think your math and your logic is a bit off but more so the logic. Let's be clear, I'm not trying to belittle your argument. I more want to point out that it seems like its being thought of from the wrong angle. To do that, I'll use numbers to compare.

First off, if you're making your assuming on how much damage your character can do before he drops, it will almost always be the case that a higher AC will seemingly outperform. What you're not asking yourself is, is my character feasibly going to have to fight that long, and how much quicker will more damage (now) drop the creature versus more damage (later) do. In that sense, Reckless Attack seems horribly de-evaluated.

On top of that, you're assuming a raw slugfest, versus the actual use of skill checks which the Strength based barbarian would potentially excel at.


So to reevaluate,
Strength based Barb AC +1 (12 dex) +2 (14 Con) = +3 + 10 = 13
Dex Based Barb AC +5(20 dex) + 2(14 Con) = 17 Not 19.. unless your assuming the shield so ok that's a 19 but your sacrificing dpr.

First lets compute the damage per round of each barbarian.
Strength Based 1d12 + 7 = 6.5 + 7 = 13.5 + (1/20 * 6.5) = 13.825
Dex Based 1d8 + 5 = 9.5 + (1/20 * 4.5) = 9.725

Werewolf has an 11 AC so presumably both types hit on 3-20 or (18/20) of the time.
This means for two attacks
Str: 13.825 * 2 * 0.9 = 24.885
Dex: 9.725 * 2 * 0.9 = 17.505

The werewolf has a +4 to hit on all of his attacks.
As such he has a 12/20 (9-20) chance to hit a strength based barbarian and a 6/20 (15-20) chance of hitting the dex based barbarian.

Assuming average damage of a bite and claw (13).
The werewolf should do an average damage of 0.6 * 13 = 7.8 / 2 = 3.9 to the strength based.
The werewolf should do an average damage of 0.3 * 13 = 4.9/2 = 2.45.
If we figure in crit damage 1/20 * (9.5) (5 claw + 4.5 bite) = 0.475 / 2 0 =0.2375 (This is the bonus damge from a crit).
So 4.1375 for strength
2.6875 for Dex

Now lets tie this together.
Knowing that a CR 3 werewolf has 58 hp on average, there's no way a werewolf will drop either of these barbarians assuming average damage in a slugfest.

So how long would it take for the Barbarian to drop the Werewolf.
Strength: That's 58 / 24.885 = 2.3 or 3 rounds.
Dex: That's 58/15.505 = 3.74 or 4 rounds.

Thus the argument above is grossly exaggerated. There is no reason to think of the fight going to the 30th round because if it does, a statistical anomally has occurred in your to hit or damage rolls.
Realistically the difference between strength and dex barbarians is this.
Strength based have a 30% easier chance to be hit due to lower AC, but their average damage is approximately 30% higher to make up for it. This means that they drop their targets 30% quicker on average. The 30% rounds that creature is dead makes up for the 30% lower AC they possess. However, lower AC does make them more susceptible to burst fluctations that healers may not be able to compensate for.

How much damage did the barbarian take.
4.1374 * 3 = 12.4
2.6875 * 4 = 10.75

So yes, while you took 1.65 less damage, than a Strength based Barbarian, the Strength based Barbarian finished his werewolf a round sooner and can move on to the next target dealing another 25ish damage that round where you were still trying to finish the first. Assuming one target the Dex survivability may seem better in terms of not being hit, but the Strength based barbarian wins hands down as he flat out finishes targets sooner. All in all, for 1.6 hit point difference per werewolf its a fairly even trade-off. If a barbarian cares about 1.6 hit points, there's something wrong. :)

Finally, it needs to be made clear that reckless attack is not as ineffective as its made out to be. The main difference comes in, how many opponents, the damage of my opponent, versus my damage.

For example,
Lets assume my same Strength based barbarian uses reckless attack but duel wields 1d10 and lets compare his damage with and without.

Assuming 1d10 duel wielding with reckless attack versus without.
With Reckless attack:
(1d10 + 7) * 0.990 + 0.098 * 5.5 =12.375 + .539 = 12.914 per main attack
Times 2 since you get 2 main attacks
25.828
+ the offhand attack = 1d10 * 0.990 + (0.098 * 5.5) = 5.445 + 0.539 = 5.984
31.8612 damage per round

Without reckless attack.
(1d10 + 7) * 0.900 + 0.05 * 5.5 =11.25 + .275 = 11.525 per main attack
Times 2 since you get 2 main attacks
23.05
+ the offhand attack = 1d10 * 0.9 + (0.05 * 5.5) = 4.95 + 0.275 = 5.225
28.275 damage per round

That's roughly a 3.6 damage increase, and that's before we consider the fact that this has a relatively low AC and we haven't even achieved brutal critical yet which doubles the small effective crit damage bonus.

We give up 4.1375 per round to the werewolf without disadvantage (same as above since we are assuming no shield).

Assuming average damage of a bite and claw (13).
The werewolf should do an average damage of 0.840 * 13 = 10.92 + 0.098 * (9) = 11.802 /2 = 5.901
So by giving the werewolf advantage to gain advantage ourselves we increased our DPR by 3.6 yet only increased the wolves dps by 1.77. On top of that, 58/31.8612 = 1.82ish round or 2 rounds. This is a full round faster than our 1d12 str example and 2 rounds faster than the Dex based example. So while we take extra damage per round, if we attack first, we only ever take one rounds worth of damage ..or 5.901.

You may notice that I used 1d10 instead of 1d6 in the offhand. Part of this is for simplicity assuming at later levels Two-Weapon fighting feat would be inevitable. But also consider that I did not add in the raw +2 barbarian bonus for damage that should be there regardless. If the full +7 were added Reckless Attack would outperform by about 6-7 instead of just 3.6.

Meanwhile the Str base example needing three rounds will take 12.4 damage and the Dex based shield barbarian will take 10.75. As such, this clearly outperforms the other 2 when fighting a werewolf and even more exemplifies how thinking the example above is a misrepresentation of optimal stats.

Finally, and I'll leave this for you, consider the rules on knocking a target prone and than backing out of range when they have to stand up. The werewolf is not proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics. Thus it has a +2 versus, the Barbarians +5(str) +3 (proficiency) if the barbarian decided to use an Athletics to knock the werewolf down. On top of that the Barbarian has advantage to strength checks. With advantage, a Barbarian would have nearly an 80% chance of achieving an 18. The werewolf would have 25% chance. The dex base would only have a 40% chance of achieving the same 18 result. With 2 attacks a Barbarian could almost guarantee the werewolf is knocked down. If he has another attack that turn he could attack with advantage (since the werewolf is prone).. Then use his movement to back out of the werewolves range. (Disadvantage to attack of opportunities while prone). When he decided to stand up, I could chase him down, rinse, repeat.