How to adjudicate a mass battle of an army vs a dragon, and statting a dragon in E6

[Melkior]

Hey GitP, I'm running an E6 campaign set the kingdom of Camelot. One of the PCs intends to take control of the kingdom and use an army to kill the strongest creature in the campaign setting: A 1000 year old gold dragon. Now for actual crunch purposes, I decided that to be the fearsome creature it is meant to the dragon must be at least gargantuan size, so that means "Old". which would be a CR 21 fight... in an E6 game. That seems like it might be overkill, but maybe not. I ask you for advice on how I should stat it out. Of particular note is the dragon's dr 10/magic, which would render it impervious to damage from arrows (which do 1d8 +1) or crossbow bolts (1d8 or 1d10) shot from the weapon of an army conscript. This seems unfair, considering the lowerthannormal amount of magic in an E6 game. The mass combat rules linked below do mention that armies do structural damage to buildings due to the overwhelming force of their attack, causing them to bypass hardness.

Relevent to the balacing of the dragon is mechanics its enemy will use to fight it. For mass battles in this campaign I'm using the rules found here. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/7851118/d20-Open-Mass-Combat-System#scribd)
Unfortunately these rules were not built with my purpose in mind, and they are inadequate here. I need to have a way for an army can fire hundreds of arrows at this dragon and have an amount of damage calculated. Due to the scale of the battle I am willing to totally average out the aggregate attacks, and assume an equal number of rolls land on every side of the 20 sided die, but I think I and my players would prefer it if there were still attacks rolls involved of some kind. At the same time making one attack roll and having it miss would mean the unit of 100 archers all just missed their shot, which seems silly. Idk how to handle this and would like suggestions.

So my questions are as follows: 1) what rule or formula should I follow to determine damage done to the Dragon by a unit of soldiers.
2) Should I just use the stats for an Old Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon)? If not, how should I modify the stats to make the dragon a formidable opponent for an army, but not world breaking?

[Renen]

Well, the arrows can always crit...
Though to be honest... The dragon cant lose. Even if it STARTS losing, he can just fly away, and they can do jack to stop him.
Oh, and thats even if you just use his physical stats, with flyby breath attacks. He is also a lvl 11 sorcerer with enough SR to make most spells cast against him fail. A lvl 11 sorcerer played well can kill alot of things even if he is human.

[animewatcha]

What kind of archers is this army? Resources available. Composite bows can be available ( add str modifier to damage roll ). Dragon mag has variant of fighter that adds dex to ranged damage. Believe there is also a feat in dragon compendium for dex to damage as well..

Magic weapon itself, IIRC, can be done on 50 units of ammo at once. How are you on cinematic-ey stuff. An alchemist fire ( there a frost/acid/etc. version of this? ) arrow won't do much for gold dragon, but if enough go off in his eyes...maybe blinded for a little bit and wind up flying into a building for a little damage.

[Renen]

Yeh. Because 1000 year old dragons put themselves into a situation where arrows fly into his eyes. You dont live to be 1000 by not having contingencies for your contingencies.

[Vhaidara]

Yeh. Because 1000 year old dragons put themselves into a situation where arrows fly into his eyes. You dont live to be 1000 by not having contingencies for your contingencies.

You do in low magic E6 worlds. When the worst a caster can do is chuck a fireball at you, life is good.

[animewatcha]

Yeh. Because 1000 year old dragons put themselves into a situation where arrows fly into his eyes. You dont live to be 1000 by not having contingencies for your contingencies.

I am speaking like Lord of the Rings settings. Arrows flying everywhere.

[Renen]

You do in low magic E6 worlds. When the worst a caster can do is chuck a fireball at you, life is good.

So... you are saying that arrows dont worry you?

Speaking of... is an old dragon still a lvl 11 sorcerer in e6?

[Vhaidara]

So... you are saying that arrows dont worry you?

Speaking of... is an old dragon still a lvl 11 sorcerer in e6?

Because Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon)

It just gets 11th level sorc casting, not 11 levels of sorc. It has 29HD

Considering I've had the following since I left home (Young Adult)
1. Flight
2. DR 5/magic
3. Over 200 HP
4. AC 27
No, arrows don't scare me.

[Renen]

I used 11 levels of sorc to basically mean 11 levels of sorc casting.

So... my point stands

1000 year old dragons put themselves into a situation where arrows fly into his eyes.

If you have arrows flying into your eyes, that means the archer has managed to beat your AC, DR, Miss chance against arrows, and god knows what other stuff you got. I dont think 1000 year old dragons have such problems.

[animewatcha]

You are talking normal 1k year old DND dragons.. different than what OP wants to do.

Also, note that most of the AC from the gold dragon is from natural armor. Aka The thing hits, but not good enough clean hit to do damage ( before dr ). Do note that I said a special kind of arrow ( in this case alchemical fire or different element type if available ) in a cinematic kind of thing that not necessarily it hitting them exactly in the eye. There are also mass volumes of these being shot towards mr. dragon. Someone is bound to roll atleast a 20.

[Renen]

Yeh. Thats assuming a 1000 year old dragon puts himself in a situation where

There are also mass volumes of these being shot towards mr. dragon.

If you are 1000 years old, you know enough to NOT get into that situation. Heck, 1/2 the army will die before making it to the dragon, from all the possible booby traps he has.

[animewatcha]

Very understandable, but OP wants to differ atleast a little bit. XD

[Vhaidara]

If you are 1000 years old, you know enough to NOT get into that situation. Heck, 1/2 the army will die before making it to the dragon, from all the possible booby traps he has.

You see, this is where you aren't quite right. As I pointed out, in a low magic E6 world, the need for dragons to be careful and smart is significantly lower. The threats that they face in standard DnD worlds AREN'T THERE. They are always at the top of the food chain. They want to terrorize the capital city and eat the king, then they eat the capital city and eat the king.

[Renen]

You see, this is where you aren't quite right. As I pointed out, in a low magic E6 world, the need for dragons to be careful and smart is significantly lower. The threats that they face in standard DnD worlds AREN'T THERE. They are always at the top of the food chain. They want to terrorize the capital city and eat the king, then they eat the capital city and eat the king.

But the question here is the arrows. So it either completely ignores arrows, since they cant hurt it. Or they CAN hurt it, and the dragon knows it and avoids.

[Vhaidara]

But the question here is the arrows. So it either completely ignores arrows, since they cant hurt it. Or they CAN hurt it, and the dragon knows it and avoids.

Who's to say that people have every tried using alchemist's fire on the arrows? This sin't a normal village, this is an organized group being led by a master strategist. It's the difference between attacking an undeveloped village and attacking a major city.

[Renen]

Its been alive for 1000 years. I am pretty sure that in 1000 friggin years alot of "master" strategists got eaten by it.

[animewatcha]

And lots of developments amongst the peoples can happen over 1000 years. Like where it likes to hit, what strategies that 'master strategist # 543' should not try that 'master strategist #224' has tried and failed. Not to mention terrain, resources, etc. Remember OP wants to go beyond just straight stats.

[Melkior]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone. I should add a little more info in light of some posts. The game is set in the Kingdom of Camelot, and the wizard Merlin has the power to command this dragon due to a unique bond they have. The situation that one of my players fears is that if he should succeed in his goal of killing King Arthur and become king of camelot, Merlin will use the nuclear option and sick the dragon on him. I'm not even sure merlin would do that if it meant putting innocents in harms way, but its sufficiently possible to plan in advance for it.

Magic weapon working on stacks of 50 arrows was something I did not know, and that ought to make a significant difference in the battle. And alchemists frost (gold dragons take double from frost) does exist in this world (I expanded alchemy a good deal (using published supplements -- no homebrew) due to the fact that the setting is artificially low-magic due to in being punishable by death in Camelot and in about half of the surrounding kingdoms) and that would really improve the DPS of the archers.

[animewatcha]

Do note that I don't know 100% if Magic Weapon itself works on the ammo. Enchanting ammo works on a 50 ammo basis though, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#tableMeleeWeaponSpecialAbilities . Probably just easier to have a few kingdom approved hocus-pocus'ers. Let's not forget smoke bomb arrow things, etc. Again what resources and terrain are important. This massive army just straight fighter or ranger or what.

[Renen]

Well, the DPS is nice and all. But the dragon has 400 hp (nearly).
So lets see here...
Say you have 10,000 archers. (And I really really doubt the players will)
And lets say they ALL can shoot it (none of them are blocked by the way the dragon positions himself, since 10k people definitely dont stand in one square)
First, only 1 in 20 of them will hit, because they'd hit only on natural 20.
so we are down to 500 who can hit it
Then we have 50% of those miss due to Displacement
so we are down to 250
Then... lets assume that they are shooting 1d10 crossbow bolts. Sadly, i dont think you'd be able to equip 10k people with magic arrows, so id say you have 1/2 of them with magic arrows, and thats also generous for a low magic campaign.

So we have 125 shooting against DR and 125 shooting w/o the problem of DR

Lets look at the ones who are shooting vs DR 1st.
They cant do any damage unless they crit. But only 1 in 20 will confirm so...
Only 6 (rounded down) will confirm crit. Of them... they have a 4 in 10 chance of doing 2 or more damage, since multiplier is 2, and they gotta roll a 6 or more to pass DR.

Now lets look at those not shooting against DR:
You got 125 shots, each doing 5.5 in average. thats 687.5 damage. Enough to kill...

However thats taking into account a giant army of archers.
The fact that the dragon was NOT invisible
The fact that the dragon didnt have some additional DR
And so on...

[nosirrahyalc]

Player from the campaign here (the one who wants to fight the dragon, in fact).

So here is some possibly relevant information:

1) This is Camelot we're talking about. Even taking into account the amount of soldiers who may desert after the current ruler is overthrown, I will still have a very sizable army at my control. The best in England, I'd wager. Also, the current king led a war on dragon-kind. A successful war. So these troops must have some experience killing drakes and are presumably decent at it already.
2) We will not be alone. When the current ruler is overthrown, I will legalize the use of magic again, gaining the favor of mages and druids across the land. They will surely come to our aid, bolstering our numbers even further and bringing special tactics to the table (troupes of druids have been hiding out in the wilderness of Camelot for years, they must be doing something special). On top of that, one of our party members comes from a band of mercenaries. I'm sure his friends will come to our aid and even if it is for a price, Camelot is rich- I'm sure we could afford it. Also possibly relevant is the fact that my character has a literal god on his side; perhaps that will give us some advantage. Not only that, but we will possibly have the support of a neighboring kingdom which nears the power of Camelot itself.
3)This dragon isn't as smart or powerful as it seems. Its not a regular D&D dragon- it's being adapted from an established character. In the lore, it was tricked and has been imprisoned for years. A toll has likely been taken on its health and power.
And, finally: 4) You guys seem to be assuming that we are going to go track this dragon down and fight it straight up. We aren't. The likely scenario, as previously described by the DM, is that the dragon will be called upon to assault the city of Camelot. If that is the case, we will likely have some time to prepare (a dragon can't just get the jump on you). We will be able to utilize siege weapons such as catapults and ballistae which could be modified to bring down a dragon. Say we launched two arrows from ballistae which were connected by a chain. The arrows hit the dragon or just fly past it and it could be pinned to the ground. The dragon is still just one creature, it can't possibly deal with multiple ranks of skirmishers, mages, archers, and siege weapons at once. Something will surely get past it and it will be brought to the ground. We aren't going to fight this thing straight up.

With that cleared up, hopefully we can get to the issue at hand: how should the DM build the dragon, instead of arguing over weather or not it will be beatable.

[Renen]

Assuming you got a dragon that (while fooled) is still knowledgeable to a degree, that is backed by the most powerful sorcerer in the world (With morgana being a far second), this is how the DM should have the dragon go:
Dragon appears. He is invisible, has all the standard mage armor, and shield spells, stoneskin he also has Displacement. He is supplied by information by Merlin that either changed his appearance and just walked all over your encampments, and listened to you making plans, or just divined it.

The dragon proceeds to fly over your army doing breath attacks that fry pretty much anything that isnt a PC, and being generally scary (his frightful presence). If you happen to reveal him, Merlin jumps in to help, and conjures strong winds via any number of spells that can do so. Suddenly all your arrows cant fly at all. The dragon is too big to care, and keeps breathing on you, casting an occasional save or die spell with a large area of effect. All your magical help is sad because any direct attacks vs him fail, due to the SR. If the dragon takes too much damage (probably more than 200), Merlin tells it to fly away, and just return tomorrow, with fresh buffs.

Thats how I'd build him. Not unbeatable, but flying + breath attacks is the main problem. And invisibility. And of course any support Merlin might provide (how powerful is he?)

And also, assuming the setting draws from Arthurian lore alot (which im sadly not fluent in), you might also have to contend with Knights of the Round table, any angry militia/other humans that actually LIKED Arthur. Then there's magical beings that might back Merlin, like the lady of the lake.

So... be nice to Arthur maybe?

[nosirrahyalc]

The whole point of the campaign is to overthrow Uther (arthur isn't in power yet) lol. And presumably the DM won't build Merlin to be ridiculously OP. He should still abide by the rules. If that's the case he and Morgana shouldn't be too far off.
Also, I assume we will deal with the Kort when we take over

[Renen]

If Merlin is also max lvl 6, then I guess you'll have abit less problems.

[Melkior]

Merlin will be a 6th level sorcerer who is well optimized with some nice magic items but not cheesy. He is dangerous because he sneaky and cunning, and he is very knowledgeable because the dragon invests heavily in knowledge skills and divinations (not much else to do when you're immortal and chained in a dungeon) and tells Merlin things. Merlin also used Arcane Disciple to get some healing spells, and made a dragon pact with Kilgarrah(the dragon) for some SLAs. Morgana has the same potential power as Merlin, but doesnt apply it as well.

[Melkior]

Perhaps a way to bring the dragon into an E6 setting properly would be to nerf its sorcerer casting ability. I do want it to have that high caster level because its my excuse for making Excalibur better than a 6th level could make, and because in the source I'm taking the campaign idea from the dragon simply does have more magical power than even Merlin. That said, the dragon coming in invisible, displaced, protection from normal missile'd, etc doesnt feel... appropriate to what I had in mind.

[Renen]

Well, being atleast invisible is something the dragon definitely should do.

Also, since he IS immortal and chained up in a dungeon, and is a high level sorcerer, he likely figured out just how great divination magic is. Therefore any "plan" the PC's come up with, consider the dragon knowing about it weeeell in advance.

Also, if 1/2 the rebel (aka the player's) army isnt poisoned by Merlin who transformed into a little old lady, and put arsenic into everyone's soup I will also be sad.

[nosirrahyalc]

Merlin might not even be free. He can call the dragon from anywhere because of their bond. He could be chained up in my dungeon and call for it and it would come from miles away.

[Renen]

So... in the rare case where you actually manage to beat the most dangerous sorcerer ever... you will just chain him up?

[nosirrahyalc]

Lol, I'm not sure what we'll do with him. It's just something to consider. Everyone in this thread seems to assume Merlin will be riding in on the dragon, blasting dudes away along side him.

[Renen]

Thats not quite how I pictured him. I pictured him sitting somewhere behind your army, casting any large scale battle field control spells. Maybe even having some magical super-beasties ready to flank you.

[Yogibear41]

Use a Sunwyrm from the Fiend Folio instead, CR 14 so they stand more of a chance, the listed dr is 3.0 based and would probably be something like 10/magic or 5/magic in 3.5

If you want it to be bigger than it is just change its size.

Crossbows should be useless against a dragon. You have an army, make use of it. Ballistas and catapults and other siege weapons do 4d6 and stuff.

Or take an Ibrandlins from monsters of Faerun, and slap a winged template on it.

[Yahzi]

Ballistae.

Touch attacks.

That is all.

Oops I see that was finally brought up.

As for army units, create troops. Make a single critter out of 100 ordinary guys. It has 100HD, attacks twice per round at +9 over its normal bonuses (thanks to Aid Another). This assumes the dragon is stupid enough to engage them in melee.