Abyssal heritor and two weapon defence feats questions.

[Michael7123]

I have a few questions regarding which set of feats would be the most optimal for my low level teifling rouge.

At this point in the campaign, our DM wants level three characters. Considering I'm going to be a teifling, I'll be at level 2, which means I have really low health compaired to the rest of the party, so I'd like to have a moderately high AC to compensate.

I can get a feat at next level. I'm already set on using two handed weapons, so that isn't going to change.

The way I see it, I have two options.

1. At 3rd level, go for two weapon defense. At sixth level, go for improved two weapon defense. My question about this build is if the two feats stack, giving me a total of +3 to shield AC?

-or-

2. At 3rd level, I could go for demonic skin, giving me a +1 bonus to natural armor AC, and gives me an additional +1 bonus to AC for every two abyssal heritor feats I have. At sixth level I would go for demonic sneak attack, which I think would would give me up 2 sneak attack dice re-rolls, and would give me a total of +2 natural armor.

So, which is better? Does going straight for two weapon defense net me a overall higher AC? And even if it does, is the 1 AC trade off I would get from taking the abyssal heritor feats worth the improved sneak attack feats?

For the record, as it stands, my AC is 19. +5 from dex bonus (rolled an 18, so happy about that), and +4 from a mithril shirt.

Thanks for reading!

[Greenish]

Burning a feat for +1 AC is a pretty bad trade either way.

[Fenryr]

If you really want AC you could get Improved Buckler Defense. It's a -1 on attack but it's possible to get a +1 Buckler or higher.

[Michael7123]

If you really want AC you could get Improved Buckler Defense. It's a -1 on attack but it's possible to get a +1 Buckler or higher.

Yes, but he's just a rouge. I thought rouges aren't proficent with bucklers.

[Fenryr]

Yes, but he's just a rouge. I thought rouges aren't proficent with bucklers.

Masterwork buckler has 0 ACP. No problem.

[Greenish]

Masterwork buckler has 0 ACP. No problem.Imp. Buckler Defense requires Shield Proficiency. Having 0 ACP won't help you any there.

[Fenryr]

Imp. Buckler Defense requires Shield Proficiency. Having 0 ACP won't help you any there.

Oh, forgot that. My bad.

[Michael7123]

Burning a feat for +1 AC is a pretty bad trade either way.

Well, if Thats the case, do you have any other good ideas for what my third (and sixth) level feat(s) should be?

[Greenish]

Aside from being a dual-wielding tiefling, what do you want to do, and which source books can you draw upon to do it?

[Michael7123]

Aside from being a dual-wielding tiefling, what do you want to do, and which source books can you draw upon to do it?

I'm willing to draw from any sourcebook. Long term, I plan on going into the Assasin prestige class. At this point, my character is chaotic evil and a pretty terrible humanoid.

I'm basucally looking to kill people fast and quickly. The two weapon fighting is more of a symbolic thing that would take a long time to explain.

So, any feats that have to do with assassination would be good.

[Greenish]

At this point, my character is chaotic evil and a pretty terrible humanoid.If he were humanoid, you could get rid of the pesky LA. Since he's outsider, well, presumably he's a fairly decent one, given he's not an actual, literal embodiment of the concept of Evil like more than a few outsiders. :smalltongue:


I'm basucally looking to kill people fast and quickly.Craven (CoR) is the first feat to come to mind. A swordsage dip and Shadow Blade (both ToB) should also come in handy. Education (ECS) leads nicely to Knowledge Devotion (CChamp.) and allows for Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (PH) for Pride Domain power (SC) which is a far better defensive feat than TWD or Demonic Skin by leaps and bounds.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) handbook is a pretty decent starting point.

[Michael7123]

If he were humanoid, you could get rid of the pesky LA. Since he's outsider, well, presumably he's a fairly decent one, given he's not an actual, literal embodiment of the concept of Evil like more than a few outsiders. :smalltongue:


He's not a literal embodiment of evil. Wouldn't call him decent by any stretch of the imagination, at least at this point. How would I get rid of the LA though?



Craven (CoR) is the first feat to come to mind. A swordsage dip and Shadow Blade (both ToB) should also come in handy. Education (ECS) leads nicely to Knowledge Devotion (CChamp.) and allows for Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (PH) for Pride Domain power (SC) which is a far better defensive feat than TWD or Demonic Skin by leaps and bounds.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) handbook is a pretty decent starting point.


Which handbooks are all of those? I know tome of battle, complete champion, and players handbook, but I don't know the other ones.

[eggynack]

Which handbooks are all of those? I know tome of battle, complete champion, and players handbook, but I don't know the other ones.
Champions of ruin, eberron campaign setting, planar handbook, and spell compendium, in order.

[Greenish]

He's not a literal embodiment of evil. Wouldn't call him decent by any stretch of the imagination, at least at this point. How would I get rid of the LA though?Lesser planetouched are detailed in Player's Guide to Faerûn. Basically, you'll become Humanoid but still be vulnerable to all the stuff that affects outsiders, but in return you'll be +0 LA.

[WeaselGuy]

Lesser planetouched are detailed in Player's Guide to Faerûn. Basically, you'll become Humanoid but still be vulnerable to all the stuff that affects outsiders, but in return you'll be +0 LA.

Yeah, I was going to suggest Lesser Tiefling Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 with Two Weapon Fighting at level 1, then, honestly, going either Scout or Rogue for the next 2 levels, taking either Improved Skirmisher or Craven at level 3. I would suggest Scout, and being a dual wielding melee pounce skirmisher. Every time you move more than 20 feet, you deal 2d6 skirmish damage (at level 3) with each weapon. Check out the Scout Handbook over at brilliantgameologists, they have a bit more detail :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Well, if Thats the case, do you have any other good ideas for what my third (and sixth) level feat(s) should be?

Travel Devotion. This allows you to move + full attack for 10 straight rounds 1/day. If you want it more than once, take it more than once, or dip Cleric 1 for Turn Undead. For anything involving sneak attack, I grab Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) as soon as I can... so 1st or 3rd for the former and probably 9th-ish for the latter. I'm also fond of Combat Reflexes/Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) for two attacks on AoOs.

For 6th level... evil doesn't seem to be a problem for you, so maybe consider Maiming Strike (Exemplars of Evil) to convert your sneak attack into Charisma damage.

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?27907) has more advice, but some other things to consider:

If Forgotten Realms material isn't allowed, try the Savage Progression Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) instead of the Lesser Planetouched Tiefling. Since you're still an Outsider instead of a humanoid, you get proficiency with all martial weapons (if you don't have it already) and maybe access to alter self/polymorph shenanigans.

If you're dead-set on spending a feat to buff your AC, I'd start with Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt (Magic of Incarnum) for a +2 Natural Armor bonus. If you want to spend another feat on it, taking the Bonus Essentia feat after 6th level can increase this to +4 NA, much more efficient that Abyssal Heritor feats.

[Dread_Head]

Yeah, I was going to suggest Lesser Tiefling Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 with Two Weapon Fighting at level 1, then, honestly, going either Scout or Rogue for the next 2 levels, taking either Improved Skirmisher or Craven at level 3. I would suggest Scout, and being a dual wielding melee pounce skirmisher. Every time you move more than 20 feet, you deal 2d6 skirmish damage (at level 3) with each weapon. Check out the Scout Handbook over at brilliantgameologists, they have a bit more detail :smallbiggrin:

Improved Skirmish requires +2d6 / +1 AC skirmish which you can't get til scout 5.

In terms of increasing your AC I would suggest spending money rather than feats on it if that's what you want. +1 enhancement AC for 1000gp, then +1 NA for 2000, +1 deflection for 2000, bump the enhancement bonus up to +2 for 3000 gp then go for a +2 Dex item for 4000 gp. Feats tend to not improve your AC very much for the investment compared to items and you'd be better off going for the Mercantile Background feat (Players Guide to Faerun) to buy items cheaper.

Edit: Although AC isn't the best defence you could have, try finding a way to get damage reduction or a miss chance.

Some other cheap and useful defensive items are:
Amulet of tears (Magic Item Compendium) 2300gp: Temporary hp as a swift action 3 times per day.
Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark) 5500gp: +1 deflection to AC and 3/day teleport away from an attack as an immediate action.
Ironward Diamond (MIC): various prices for scaling damage reduction on 10 attacks per day.