Help! Effigies are ruining my game!

[gogogome]

This player picked a generalist wizard. he got craft construct at level 6. At level 7 he used his entire WBL to craft a hydra effigy!

It has 5/adamantine damage reduction, can move and attack 7 times every round, has 78.5 hp, 18AC further boosted by mage armor, has a reach of 15ft, 80 damage every round on average, and its 7 attacks of opportunity ensures any spellcaster in his reach are annihilated, which he goes for first.

The wizard stacked a large number of repair damage spells.

This is completely outshining our party's fighter.

Any way to stop this monstrosity? :(

It only costed him 18,125gp and 17 days (he bought a scroll of fabricate)

edit: I don't want to destroy his effigy, but the game I setup is too easy for him now, and our party fighter is just twiddling his thumbs. So is there a way I can shape my encounters so the fighter has something to do?

[BWR]

Tell the player this is ruining the game you want to run and isn't fair to the fighter. Remove the effigy and let him either make a less powerful effigy or make him buy normal gear.
That's the best option.

Other than that.
- Flight. The effigy can't catch flying creatures easily.
- Ambushes. Make sure the terrain is such that the effigy can't reach the attackers. A giant pit trap which it tumbles down in can be enough to put it out of commission for the battle.
- Target the caster. Ranged weapons and spells that take out the wizard first.
- problems with local authorities. Not everyone wants what is basically a tank wandering around the countryside and into villages at whim. Throw lots of legal wrangling to be allowed to keep it, have him denied entry into towns and cities, have people run in fear, have it confiscated by authorities or destroyed by high-level operatives if he refuses, have it heavily taxed, etc.

[gooddragon1]

Tell the player this is ruining the game you want to run and isn't fair to the fighter. Remove the effigy and let him either make a less powerful effigy or make him buy normal gear.
That's the best option.

Other than that.
- Flight. The effigy can't catch flying creatures easily.
- Ambushes. Make sure the terrain is such that the effigy can't reach the attackers. A giant pit trap which it tumbles down in can be enough to put it out of commission for the battle.
- Target the caster. Ranged weapons and spells that take out the wizard first.
- problems with local authorities. Not everyone wants what is basically a tank wandering around the countryside and into villages at whim. Throw lots of legal wrangling to be allowed to keep it, have him denied entry into towns and cities, have people run in fear, have it confiscated by authorities or destroyed by high-level operatives if he refuses, have it heavily taxed, etc.

The first one and the taxed one I think. Also, consider the amount of effort the wizard put in on his own when assigning XP awards. Hmm... this gives me an idea of reducing XP awards to all classes that summon up help in fights.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Go around it and kill him. If he dropped his entire WBL on it then he has no defensive items and if he stacked most of his spell slots with repair damage spells then he doesn't have much in the way of defensive spells either. Kill him. Kill him dead. Then tell him, "don't do that again."

Of course, you could get by quite easily by simply putting an impasse for the effigy in the way. A narrow rickety bridge over a canyon should be impossible for the hydra effigy to cross. Narrow corridors in a dungeon can't allow a huge creature to move through. Sink it into the mud of a swamp or through the ice of a frozen lake. Hell, a simple pit trap will take the -mindless- brute out of the equation, it just needs a pressure sensitive trigger rated for a huge creature instead of medium ones.

Pit them against a real, eight headed hydra. The real one will shred the fake that's in its territory and guerrilla tactics will damn near guarantee the beastie victory, at least over the effigy. Naturally, you'll want it to "get cocky" after taking out the "other hydra" and just try to mindlessly maul the PC's while they cut it down. That or they flee and the effigy can't keep up. Either way it's going down.

Of course, this is all me playing devil's advocate here. Talking to the player is probably the best course.

[Yahzi]

If it's that cheap... why doesn't everyone have one?

Why don't the bad guys all ride around on these things? Sure it will turn your game into Mecha Warrior instead of D&D but apparently that's what your table wants. Just let the fighter "capture" one, and then they can ride into battle against other mechas, and victory will not be about who can roll the most damage dice but rather about tactics and strategy.

[gogogome]

Tell the player this is ruining the game you want to run and isn't fair to the fighter. Remove the effigy and let him either make a less powerful effigy or make him buy normal gear.
That's the best option.

Other than that.
- Flight. The effigy can't catch flying creatures easily.
- Ambushes. Make sure the terrain is such that the effigy can't reach the attackers. A giant pit trap which it tumbles down in can be enough to put it out of commission for the battle.
- Target the caster. Ranged weapons and spells that take out the wizard first.
- problems with local authorities. Not everyone wants what is basically a tank wandering around the countryside and into villages at whim. Throw lots of legal wrangling to be allowed to keep it, have him denied entry into towns and cities, have people run in fear, have it confiscated by authorities or destroyed by high-level operatives if he refuses, have it heavily taxed, etc.

Well, I don't want to shunt his creativity of using a feat or feature that no one ever uses. Haven't played with an effigy in my entire time playing this game. It's just that it's too darn powerful.

Oh and he has fly, which he casts on his effigy and rides it, so bridges, pit falls, they won't work. Really small human sized cave seems a bit unrealistic.

The effigy gives him cover. Our cleric is loving the effigy and is staying behind it too, and when they aren't in cover is when the effigy is annihilating his foes, so ranged attackers aren't an option :(


Go around it and kill him. If he dropped his entire WBL on it then he has no defensive items and if he stacked most of his spell slots with repair damage spells then he doesn't have much in the way of defensive spells either. Kill him. Kill him dead. Then tell him, "don't do that again."

See, that sort of thing would be evil. He was excited to play this character and if I just slam a hammer on his head, he won't have a good time. Of course, the fighter is having a horrible time too because he's doing nothing and the fights are ending so quickly. Every round it's a guarantee the enemy loses one guy, and because of the DR the thing is too damn tanky for anything other than melee guys, who gets slaughtered when they try to close the distance.


Of course, you could get by quite easily by simply putting an impasse for the effigy in the way. A narrow rickety bridge over a canyon should be impossible for the hydra effigy to cross. Narrow corridors in a dungeon can't allow a huge creature to move through. Sink it into the mud of a swamp or through the ice of a frozen lake. Hell, a simple pit trap will take the -mindless- brute out of the equation, it just needs a pressure sensitive trigger rated for a huge creature instead of medium ones.

Environmental obstacles might allow me to remove the hydra for an encounter or two. After all, it's perfectly reasonable for a part to venture into a cave that they can't bring heavy machinery into because it might cave in.



Pit them against a real, eight headed hydra. The real one will shred the fake that's in its territory and guerrilla tactics will damn near guarantee the beastie victory, at least over the effigy. Naturally, you'll want it to "get cocky" after taking out the "other hydra" and just try to mindlessly maul the PC's while they cut it down. That or they flee and the effigy can't keep up. Either way it's going down.

Yeah this is good advice. Pit the party against another group of enemies who has a giant monster. So the monsters fight each other and the non-monsters fight each other.



Of course, this is all me playing devil's advocate here. Talking to the player is probably the best course.

If there's no real solution here, then I guess I'll tell the player I didn't expect the effigy to be that powerful, so at least for this game pick a weaker effigy, and I'll design the next game to make sure without the hydra your party will fail.


If it's that cheap... why doesn't everyone have one?

Why don't the bad guys all ride around on these things? Sure it will turn your game into Mecha Warrior instead of D&D but apparently that's what your table wants. Just let the fighter "capture" one, and then they can ride into battle against other mechas, and victory will not be about who can roll the most damage dice but rather about tactics and strategy.

It's not that our table wants it, its that the wizard player wants to own a "biolith army" (his words, from the eye of judgement game. Apparently it's a card game on the PSP and the main antagonist made an army of robots in a magical setting and took over the place.)

These are all great advices but I guess I should've been more clear. I was hoping for some advice to shape the encounters in a way to give the fighter something to do. Preventing the wizard from using his effigy would ruin the game for him, and he'll probably have some qualms with playing with me again.

If you have dealt with effigies in your games before, please share what happened.

His plan is to create a new hydra effigy at level 12, maybe at 10 if the 7 headed one doesn't last until then. Then he's gonna make a golem and spend the rest of the game improving its HD, which apparently you can do because they're like magic items and you can improve existing magic items.

[OttoVonBigby]

Yeah, with that kind of party level, I'd be thinking about higher-level villains who hear about this monstrosity (because word's gotta get around) and decide they want to steal it, or kidnap and enslave its creator--as a "reward" for his ingenuity.

And on preview, if the character is that much of a megalomaniac, well... such people always have direct competitors. Cripes, if I was the king? I'd want this dude in my dungeon.

My approach wouldn't so much be to punish the player, but rather to teach the character/player that there are in-game consequences for being ridiculous. (Assuming, of course, that the player is mature enough to embrace story-suitable challenges to his Grand Scheme... and assuming this is a standard setting where Mecha-Hydras aren't commonplace!)

[RoboEmperor]

When i did that stuff this is what happened.

1. First time I did it our resident fighter walked the game.

2. Second time I did it I walked the game. More accurately, the DM pulled a guy with disintegrate which oneshotted the damn thing and with my entire WBL sunk into the 12 headed hydra, I died shortly after. Had to sit out until the next campaign.

After that I stuck with enslaving demons. At least they're expendable.

It's not very helpful but... i'm sharing my experience XD.

[Quirp]

You could split encounters without using an opposing group + monster approach by having at least some part of the battle take place in Locations that are not easily reached by the Hydra.
If there is an ambush in a canyon there might be attackers from the rear and up front (hydra handles those), while some archers shoot at the party from a narrow ledge or are hiding in a tower (fighter handles those). Another solution could be to ask the wizard to focus on buffing the fighter, since the hydra seems to be powerful enough to handle threats (fighter flies, hydra handles ground threats).

[ace rooster]

This player picked a generalist wizard. he got craft construct at level 6. At level 7 he used his entire WBL to craft a hydra effigy!

It has 5/adamantine damage reduction, can move and attack 7 times every round, has 78.5 hp, 18AC further boosted by mage armor, has a reach of 15ft, 80 damage every round on average, and its 7 attacks of opportunity ensures any spellcaster in his reach are annihilated, which he goes for first.

The wizard stacked a large number of repair damage spells.

This is completely outshining our party's fighter.

Any way to stop this monstrosity? :(

It only costed him 18,125gp and 17 days (he bought a scroll of fabricate)

edit: I don't want to destroy his effigy, but the game I setup is too easy for him now, and our party fighter is just twiddling his thumbs. So is there a way I can shape my encounters so the fighter has something to do?

5ft corridors. flight. Don't get within reach (20ft move speed), or fast running battles. Improved sunder for standard anti hydra tactics, only without the heads regrowing. Greater invisibility, using the fact that it is mindless and so will not make guesses as to where their attacker is. Illusions, again using the fact it is mindless and can believe anything. Kobolds throwing oil flasks at it. Traps. DR 10 almost completely nulifies it's attacks, so is worth looking out for.

Just a few ideas, though I don't think there is any way for the fighter to be a better fighter than it other than picking up a bow. That is just how the game works. :smallfrown: My only thought would be to make encounters that cannot just be smashed through, requiring the fighter to actually think.

Hydras only have 10ft reach according to the SRD, so that helps slightly. Generally I regard a caster that has ended up in range of a melee combatant to have already lost, (usually wrong, simply because of the vast power gap between casters and non casters, but a decent starting point) and from that perspective the hydra's abilities are not a problem (again with the 20ft move speed. 50ft is really not a large attack radius except indoors, where huge size makes things complicated).

Finally, I would certainly rule that an effigy's body (unlike a golem, which cannot be fabricated because it is required to be "treated" during construction) is not entirely "one material", and as such not a valid use of fabricate. Fabricate is not a catch all for any craft check. Hope this helps.

[gogogome]

You could split encounters without using an opposing group + monster approach by having at least some part of the battle take place in Locations that are not easily reached by the Hydra.
If there is an ambush in a canyon there might be attackers from the rear and up front (hydra handles those), while some archers shoot at the party from a narrow ledge or are hiding in a tower (fighter handles those). Another solution could be to ask the wizard to focus on buffing the fighter, since the hydra seems to be powerful enough to handle threats (fighter flies, hydra handles ground threats).

That's a very good idea. Or oppositely fighter handles ground, hydra handles air, since I'm pretty sure the wizard wants to buff his summon instead of a fighter.


5ft corridors. flight. Don't get within reach (20ft move speed), or fast running battles. Improved sunder for standard anti hydra tactics, only without the heads regrowing. Greater invisibility, using the fact that it is mindless and so will not make guesses as to where their attacker is. Illusions, again using the fact it is mindless and can believe anything. Kobolds throwing oil flasks at it. Traps. DR 10 almost completely nulifies it's attacks, so is worth looking out for.

Just a few ideas, though I don't think there is any way for the fighter to be a better fighter than it other than picking up a bow. That is just how the game works. :smallfrown: My only thought would be to make encounters that cannot just be smashed through, requiring the fighter to actually think.

Hydras only have 10ft reach according to the SRD, so that helps slightly. Generally I regard a caster that has ended up in range of a melee combatant to have already lost, (usually wrong, simply because of the vast power gap between casters and non casters, but a decent starting point) and from that perspective the hydra's abilities are not a problem (again with the 20ft move speed. 50ft is really not a large attack radius except indoors, where huge size makes things complicated).

Finally, I would certainly rule that an effigy's body (unlike a golem, which cannot be fabricated because it is required to be "treated" during construction) is not entirely "one material", and as such not a valid use of fabricate. Fabricate is not a catch all for any craft check. Hope this helps.

Repair damage arguably repairs heads, otherwise we might get into the whole regrowing heads is not listed as a SU EX or SLA so my effigy gets it thing. But still, sunder might be a great way to weaken the thing. So at the start the hydra shines, then after a lot of sunders, the fighter takes over as the hydra retreats.

These are all great ideas.

Enemies with DR is also a great suggestion to limit the hydra's effectiveness.

[sorcererlover]

Polymorph the fighter into a hydra.

[Incorrect]

Maybe all their enemies begin to get wise to the idea. They get their own monsters. After a while, all groups have some kind of giant monster with them, or are prepared to summon one.
Your campaign evolves to monster vs monster, but the groups are also fighting each other. Will they use the hydra defensively or offensively? against the other monster or against the group? Certainly the other group will also have melee brutes for your fighter to battle against.
You get to have fun creating thematic groups with monsters.

A giant crocodile grapples the hydra, while brutes engages the party in melee.
Godzilla! with a group of buffers
Mecha-godzilla! a mirrorparty perhaps?
A huge swarm envelops the party while the enemy group uses hit and run tactics.

[Jermz]

What about some giants? They've got reach, lots of HP and do a significant amount of damage that shouldn't be too adversely affected by the DR 5/adamantine. They're also smart - invisible boulder-hurling giants, for example. You can also go with a whole bunch of ogres to surround the thing. They do a relatively high amount of damage, also have reach, and can be mown down easily enough by the fighter, making him feel useful.

Also, regarding the 7 attacks of opportunity - I don't think that you can AoO the same character more than once per round, such as an enemy spellcaster getting in range. Do effigies get feats like real hydras, such as Combat Reflexes? Otherwise, he won't be able to use all 7 of his heads for AoOs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One point of clarification that I feel needs to be made: effegies aren't the problem here. It's the hydra. If it was a real one under charm monster you'd be having the exact same problem. Maybe worse, since he wouldn't have to spend any spells to maintain it.

[RoboEmperor]

One point of clarification that I feel needs to be made: effegies aren't the problem here. It's the hydra. If it was a real one under charm monster you'd be having the exact same problem. Maybe worse, since he wouldn't have to spend any spells to maintain it.

a LOT less spells since the thing heals like 17hp a round. Too bad hydras are core :P

But where you gonna find and charm a hydra?

[Bronk]

This player picked a generalist wizard. he got craft construct at level 6. At level 7 he used his entire WBL to craft a hydra effigy!

It has 5/adamantine damage reduction, can move and attack 7 times every round, has 78.5 hp, 18AC further boosted by mage armor, has a reach of 15ft, 80 damage every round on average, and its 7 attacks of opportunity ensures any spellcaster in his reach are annihilated, which he goes for first.

The wizard stacked a large number of repair damage spells.

This is completely outshining our party's fighter.

Any way to stop this monstrosity? :(

It only costed him 18,125gp and 17 days (he bought a scroll of fabricate)

edit: I don't want to destroy his effigy, but the game I setup is too easy for him now, and our party fighter is just twiddling his thumbs. So is there a way I can shape my encounters so the fighter has something to do?

Well, I'd say remember all the thing's weaknesses... it's slow, it's a big target, it's vulnerable to spells that deal damage to objects, and it has all poor saving throws. Basically, it's super vulnerable to common fireball spells (saves) and scorching rays and other rays (poor touch AC), and any enemy spellcaster can just continue to back up a ways, then cast.

My suggestion would be to, in the course of a regular encounter, remember to incidentally target the big construct too, whether by being the big obvious target or by catching it in the edge of an area affect spell targeting your PCs. Since the thing is destroyed at 0HP, if it gets low they should retire it or give it a support role. Have more than one encounter per day so that the wizard runs out of repair spells. Have your enemies in more than one spot, and have them keep backing up.

That should limit the effectiveness of the effigy hydra, while letting the fighter do more as he runs around picking off the enemies while they play keepaway.

It's also vulnerable to being swarmed by enemies with reach weapons all at once, since attacks of opportunity are only triggered when leaving a square (regular, non reach weapons would trigger attacks of opportunity when they close from 10' to 5'). You could have a few encounters like this, where almost but not quite enough attackers get through, sort of a scare to the wizard and a heads up to be careful how he uses his pet. Oh, plus remember that the size of the effigy hydra is 15', and the reach is only 10'.

BTW, where did the .5 hp come from? Also, did the wizard remember to pay the XP cost? Otherwise, the gold value per HD doubles to 2000 gold. Oh, and the people hiding behind it would only be getting 'soft cover', which is only a +4 boost to AC.

[RoboEmperor]

BTW, where did the .5 hp come from? Also, did the wizard remember to pay the XP cost? Otherwise, the gold value per HD doubles to 2000 gold. Oh, and the people hiding behind it would only be getting 'soft cover', which is only a +4 boost to AC.

He probably forgot to round down the .5hp when calculating its average hp, which all created constructs have.

But... what? There's an option to not pay the XP cost? o_O?

[Bronk]

But... what? There's an option to not pay the XP cost? o_O?

Well not if you make it yourself, I was just asking because it wasn't mentioned in the original post. The extra cost is for if you just go out and buy one.

[Flickerdart]

As the PCs approach the bridge that takes them across the border, they see a hastily made sign erected in front of it. "Beware," it says, "rust monster infestation ahead. Adventure at own risk." A DC20 Listen check will reveal roaring far off in the distance that the wizard identifies as coming from at least one Rust Dragon.

While they debate whether or not to leave, halflings steal the legs off the hydra and leave it on cinder blocks.

[Tvtyrant]

Sounds like you should either talk to the Fighter about upgrading their character or talk to the Wizard about downgrading theirs. A Fighter should be able to beat a hydra if they take the right feat routes (Shocktrooping madness.)

[strangebloke]

The problem isn't the effigy. Its your wizard.

I understand that he's *excited* to play a super powerful wizard, but frankly?

If killing the hydra is enough to make him upset, then he's not being a team player. He's in this game for the power trip, and while n other campaigns that's fine, you have a fighter in the group. You need to do something about the effigy.

If he's upset... tough! What's the fighter supposed to do, just suck it up and not do anything so that the wizard can feel awesome? Especially if the wizard isn't willing to buff the fighter.

Don't be cheap about this, though. Don't surround them with rust monsters. Make it touching. Have it get stolen by a group of the baddies, and when the group finds it again, have it help them kill the boss, only to sputter and die from some hidden curse. (contingent disintegrate that the big bad put on it when visiting his minions.) Make the last moments touching and sad. Fill the wizard's heart with anger at the big bad.

Then, have him find plans for super-awesome constructs he can forge. Home-brew if you want. But the new plans he finds, while really cost effective are more party-friendly. Little helicopter constructs that hover around him and buff people. Mech armor. If he likes big things, what about a giant flying construct that doesn't have great offensive capablities, but can fly the party everywhere and offer cover in combat. If he absolutely HAS to be the number one DPSer... He's being a ****.

Oh, and be nice to the fighter. He's going to need help

[(Un)Inspired]

The problem isn't the effigy. Its your wizard.

I understand that he's *excited* to play a super powerful wizard, but frankly?

If killing the hydra is enough to make him upset, then he's not being a team player. He's in this game for the power trip, and while n other campaigns that's fine, you have a fighter in the group. You need to do something about the effigy.

If he's upset... tough! What's the fighter supposed to do, just suck it up and not do anything so that the wizard can feel awesome? Especially if the wizard isn't willing to buff the fighter.

Don't be cheap about this, though. Don't surround them with rust monsters. Make it touching. Have it get stolen by a group of the baddies, and when the group finds it again, have it help them kill the boss, only to sputter and die from some hidden curse. (contingent disintegrate that the big bad put on it when visiting his minions.) Make the last moments touching and sad. Fill the wizard's heart with anger at the big bad.

Then, have him find plans for super-awesome constructs he can forge. Home-brew if you want. But the new plans he finds, while really cost effective are more party-friendly. Little helicopter constructs that hover around him and buff people. Mech armor. If he likes big things, what about a giant flying construct that doesn't have great offensive capablities, but can fly the party everywhere and offer cover in combat. If he absolutely HAS to be the number one DPSer... He's being a ****.

Oh, and be nice to the fighter. He's going to need help

It sounds like the hydra isn't the problem. The problem is the fighter. The wizard made a strong character and is having fun. The fighter's player chose to make a very weak character and consequently isn't having fun.

Offer to let him retrain into a Warblade or a cleric so he can beat the vinegar out of his enemies better than the effegy can.

[Solaris]

Or strong-arm the wizard into making a mecha-suit (adapt the rules from d20 Future, if you like) for the fighter, if he doesn't want to retrain into warblade. If nothing else, that'll help him keep up with Mecha-Hydra.

Sure, it's a bit anime-esque, but there's something innately awesome about giant robots-vs-monsters in D&D.

[Flickerdart]

Or strong-arm the wizard into making a mecha-suit (adapt the rules from d20 Future, if you like) for the fighter, if he doesn't want to retrain into warblade. If nothing else, that'll help him keep up with Mecha-Hydra.

Sure, it's a bit anime-esque, but there's something innately awesome about giant robots-vs-monsters in D&D.
Apply necessary shenanigans, UPD a power stone of True Mind Switch, now the fighter is the robo-hydra.

[ace rooster]

Oh and he has fly, which he casts on his effigy and rides it, so bridges, pit falls, they won't work. Really small human sized cave seems a bit unrealistic.


I missed this earlier, and this is worth looking at. An effigy is mindless, which means that it cannot learn new skills or facts. In particular this means that if you give it a new ability that it is not programed to be able to use it does not modify it's behavior to use it. The fly spell explicitly requires concentration, (though only as much as walking) and so using it is a new skill that ordinarily hydras do not possess (even if an int of 1 is enough to master it. I believe there are rules for teaching animals to use fly spells somewhere). Casting fly on it will not make it understand that it can fly, and as such it will not try to. You might be able to make it fly with an epic ride check, but I don't think that is really relevant. Incidently there is no reason to expect it to respond to (pre epic) ride checks at all! Horses and the like have to be trained to, which effigies cannot be.

Mindless is a really massive thing, so make sure you hold it to it.


A natural cave might not be human sized, but a human mine probably would be. Doors often will be too, and breaking your way through is not always an option. The entire world being set up to accomidate elephants seems a bit more unrealistic.


The main problem you are having is actually with minionmancy in general. It is only common sense to take as large an army as possible with you if you are fighting in an open field (or herding cattle through a dungeon), and even a commoner can make a fighters DPS look very silly if he employs 200 archers instead of buying a +4 sword. The trick is to make adventures for which a large party is a problem, otherwise there is no reason for the considerable party wealth to go toward backup. Stealth is one way, and confined spaces are another. Speed of travel and lack of availability are the other main obstacles, and the only one that doesn't apply to the hydra is availability.

[Flickerdart]

I missed this earlier, and this is worth looking at. An effigy is mindless, which means that it cannot learn new skills or facts. In particular this means that if you give it a new ability that it is not programed to be able to use it does not modify it's behavior to use it. The fly spell explicitly requires concentration, (though only as much as walking) and so using it is a new skill that ordinarily hydras do not possess (even if an int of 1 is enough to master it. I believe there are rules for teaching animals to use fly spells somewhere). Casting fly on it will not make it understand that it can fly, and as such it will not try to. You might be able to make it fly with an epic ride check, but I don't think that is really relevant. Incidently there is no reason to expect it to respond to (pre epic) ride checks at all! Horses and the like have to be trained to, which effigies cannot be.
There is a link between an effigy and its creator that allows the hydra to be commanded without needing to be taught tricks. There's no reason to assume that "fly over there" is not covered by the "commands must be simple" rule because by your own admission, flying is no more complex than walking.

[Baroknik]

It sounds like the hydra isn't the problem. The problem is the fighter. The wizard made a strong character and is having fun. The fighter's player chose to make a very weak character and consequently isn't having fun.

Offer to let him retrain into a Warblade or a cleric so he can beat the vinegar out of his enemies better than the effegy can.

See, I disagree with this sentiment. Neither player is individually at fault. No one optimization level is "playing right." The problem isn't that the fighter is too weak, the problem is that the power gap between the wizard and the fighter is too large. While the conversations on this forum may make one think this is always the case, that isn't true. While the optimization ceiling for wizard is much higher than that of the fighter, they can still occupy the same optimization space (that is, the wizard's floor is below the fighter's ceiling).

Really the problem comes from mixed expectations of appropriate power within the group. If the fighter wants to be more powerful, look at buffing him; but if the party is happy at their current optimization level (assuming it's below that of the wizard), the. Talking to the wizard about downplaying his hydra may be best.

Like most things in D&D with problems, having an adult conversation about the problems and addressing them in a mature, out-of-game way is probably the best way to deal with behavior/expectation based problems. The solution may well be a fix in-game, but getting everyone on the same page is probably the smart play before tweaking their characters.

[StoneCipher]

It's not being mean to the caster if you have someone attack him instead of his effigy. You could have a normal bowguydude start popping off arrows at the caster and since he stacked repair spells he just can't do much about it.

Like he is literally a sitting duck when separated from this thing. That's the weakness he voluntarily chose. It's not mean to use it against him if the situation calls for it. If you were to say have someone with a bow in every encounter and all bow users automatically targeted the mage, that's a bit more on the mean side, but to ACTIVELY not use a character's weakness against them is being silly and you might as well hand the fighter a chair.

[strangebloke]

It sounds like the hydra isn't the problem. The problem is the fighter. The wizard made a strong character and is having fun. The fighter's player chose to make a very weak character and consequently isn't having fun.

Offer to let him retrain into a Warblade or a cleric so he can beat the vinegar out of his enemies better than the effegy can.

My maxim is, make players face the consequences of their in-character choices in character, but not their OOC choices. Certainly, don't make them face the other players' OOC choices.

Guy wants to play a fighter. Cool, but as DM you're going to have to work to keep him relevant. Other guy wants to play a wizard? Cool, but he needs to play nice. Any wizard who optimizes can trivialize any other party member that doesn't, even high tier ones. This is why so many DMs outright ban large lists of spells.

The guy here didn't optimize that much. But clearly the rest of the table is even worse. Still, his decisions shouldn't force another guy at the table to play something that he doesn't want to. Some people don't like warblades, and clerics do not feel like fighters.

So give the fighter something. Magic boots of flying or some other magic item that lets him keep up for a while. Give mech-mage something that's cool, but not as mean to the fighter.

In general, yeah, I would not have let a fighter in the same party as a wizard and cleric, unless I had a lot of faith in the guy. But forcing someone to re-roll a character leads to a lot of hurt feelings, in my experience.

Of course, if I could, I'd force everyone to play tiers 3 or 4.

[lord_khaine]

Really the problem comes from mixed expectations of appropriate power within the group. If the fighter wants to be more powerful, look at buffing him; but if the party is happy at their current optimization level (assuming it's below that of the wizard), the. Talking to the wizard about downplaying his hydra may be best.

Like most things in D&D with problems, having an adult conversation about the problems and addressing them in a mature, out-of-game way is probably the best way to deal with behavior/expectation based problems. The solution may well be a fix in-game, but getting everyone on the same page is probably the smart play before tweaking their characters.

I support this solution as the best fall back option that would leave everyone at the table happy.

And at the root of everything the fighter is by default a bit weak, especially when it sounds like the wizards player is a lot better at optimizing than the fighter, or else the wizard just stumbled across a pretty powerfull feat.

There is still also a lot of things that can be done initially to try and adjust things inside of the game first though.. initially letting the fighter turn into a warblade or a psychick warrior might help a lot, but it could be it was not a option for a lot of different reasons.

So alternatively some different strategies might help deal better with the Hydra.
As other people have already mentioned it has a lot of weak attacks, so things with a high damage reduction could mainly ignore its attacks, while the fighter might be able to shine if he had the right weapon in his inventory.
Besides that is is pretty weak against CC spells, things like grease or glitterdust should have a decent chance of taking it out of the combat entirely

And its also a Huge monster, something as simple as a fight indoor with a low celling might mean it had to squezee itself around, giving it a nice penalty to attack that might curb its damage output.

[DoomHat]

Like most things in D&D with problems, having an adult conversation about the problems and addressing them in a mature, out-of-game way is probably the best way to deal with behavior/expectation based problems. The solution may well be a fix in-game, but getting everyone on the same page is probably the smart play before tweaking their characters.

Someone finally hit the nail on the head.

It's a little gross how everyone is assuming the worst in this wizard's motives.
Not every twink wizard is actively looking to outshine everyone with their omnipotence. Sometimes people play wizards because they want to feel cleaver! Sometimes the results are wacky schemes like this Hydra.

The best thing you could have done, and or can do going forward, is talk to the wizard and hash out this thing's limitations. Fuel requirements, terrain restrictions, weather proofing, that sort of thing. Where's it stored between adventures?

What are it's maintenance requirements? This is basically a magical tank. Real world tanks require a hell of a lot of maintenance, and generally a significant amount of crew to operate.

Over all, as a few people have pointed out I think, the best solution is to make it clear this thing is really only appropriate for special occasions. Write up a massive battle or castle siege for this thing to shine in, and make most of the campaign stuff that happens inside building (like dungeons for instance), where this thing will be most inappropriate.

All that said, I hate the fighter mechanics. Homebrew some wacky go nuts EX ability feats for him so that he can play the sort of thing you see Fighters do in action movies and shows. Regardless of this Hydra, he's going to get progressivly more useless anyway. Such is the curse of the d20 Fighter; they're just not supposed to be useful.

[(Un)Inspired]

See, I disagree with this sentiment. Neither player is individually at fault. No one optimization level is "playing right." The problem isn't that the fighter is too weak, the problem is that the power gap between the wizard and the fighter is too large. While the conversations on this forum may make one think this is always the case, that isn't true. While the optimization ceiling for wizard is much higher than that of the fighter, they can still occupy the same optimization space (that is, the wizard's floor is below the fighter's ceiling).

Really the problem comes from mixed expectations of appropriate power within the group. If the fighter wants to be more powerful, look at buffing him; but if the party is happy at their current optimization level (assuming it's below that of the wizard), the. Talking to the wizard about downplaying his hydra may be best.

Like most things in D&D with problems, having an adult conversation about the problems and addressing them in a mature, out-of-game way is probably the best way to deal with behavior/expectation based problems. The solution may well be a fix in-game, but getting everyone on the same page is probably the smart play before tweaking their characters.

I believe you're misunderstanding my sentiment. I don't believe either player is playing "right" or "wrong". I do believe, however, that when there's a power disparity the best solution tends to be empowering the underperformer rather than weaken the stronger member.

In addition to my belief that uplifting is typically better than downgrading; the fighter playing is the one who's not having fun. It's probably in everyone's best interest to have every player enjoy themselves. The wizard is enjoying himself, let him be. The fighter is not having fun, modify his character till he is.

[gogogome]

This is all great advice!

The wizard did pay the XP cost of 560 when creating the hydra

The wizard is not a power gamer or optimizer. Especially if you guys knew his history. Generalist wizard is pretty underwhelming compared to the other wizard builds I played with. But he did optimize on his effigy because he was worried the effigy would become a wasted investment.

It seems there are a few solutions:
1. Give the fighter magical equipment to be on-par with the hydra
2. Ask the wizard to pick a different effigy, at least for this game.
3. Have encounters fight on multiple fronts

[ace rooster]

There is a link between an effigy and its creator that allows the hydra to be commanded without needing to be taught tricks. There's no reason to assume that "fly over there" is not covered by the "commands must be simple" rule because by your own admission, flying is no more complex than walking.

"Fly over there" is a perfectly simple command if the target in question can fly. Hydras cannot.

It is analagous to riding. An effigy elf could be commanded to sit on a horse fine, but is "ride over there" a simple command? It does not require a check out of combat, and the actions required are no more complicated than those for walking. As a DM I would probably say that it is not simple, because any thinking creature would still have to work it out the first time. A goblin or other creature with a racial bonus I would probably allow though. DM call on that one, and is interacting with a fly spell any simpler?

hmm, effigy goblins with crossbows on effigy worgs. I think I have a new bandit force.

As a side note "requires no more concentration than" is not the same as "no more complex than". The difference is subtle and not relevant here, but I'm touchy about being misquoted. :smallredface:



Would it be a problem giving the fighter leadership and command of a small platoon? A couple of cart mounted ballistae and some guardsmen with crossbows, various arms, and oil flasks could out damage the hydra easily, and would generally be as mobile (if not more so) than the hydra. Any fight that the hydra is in, these guys will be in. If the PCs cause is important then a few deaths should not be a massive problem, and a good RP opening. Minionmancy for everyone! Probably do something to limit turn length though.

[RoboEmperor]

Quick question, if you PaO a rock into a 12 headed hydra, can it attack with all its heads without penalty or do they get a minus to their attack because they don't gain the multiattack feat?

edit: Hydras don't have that feat either... so this means yes? no attack penalties on PaO'd hydra effigies?

[Flickerdart]

It is analagous to riding.
No it isn't. Riding is a lot more complicated than walking (or flying) because you are controlling another creature instead of doing everything yourself. You might as well argue that a hasted hydra effigy wouldn't be able to move faster because it doesn't know it can.


Quick question, if you PaO a rock into a 12 headed hydra, can it attack with all its heads without penalty or do they get a minus to their attack because they don't gain the multiattack feat?

edit: Hydras don't have that feat either... so this means yes? no attack penalties on PaO'd hydra effigies?

Multiattack is only required for secondary weapons. All hydra heads are primary.

[RoboEmperor]

I'd argue fly works on constructs. They maybe mindless but not completely mindless. How does it know your language? How can it perform any task if it's mindless? Obviously it has some sort of mind, as you are binding an unwilling earth elemental inside it (at least that's the case for golems).

No concentration required. The spell was just saying flying is as easy as walking.

You can make a construct keep walking straight into a wall, and make it try to walk through the wall. Likewise you can make it try to fly even thought it can't fly, or swim even if it can't swim, etc.

This isn't peter pan's magical pixie dust. No emotions or feelings or whatever required.

But if you're the DM, it's your call. There's no reason why you can't impose this limit on players as an intentional balance measure.

[ace rooster]

No it isn't. Riding is a lot more complicated than walking; the reason you don't need a check outside of combat is because your concentration is not otherwise occupied and any idiot can manage it.

You can learn to ride passibly in minutes easily (point nice horse in direction, ask to walk, not fall off). How long did it take you to learn to walk? (stand up, take steps, not fall over). Walking requires significantly more active balance than basic riding (Dead people have been known to stay on horses. As far as I am aware, no dead body has been found standing). Either way, the fact that the analogy is not perfect does not stop it being informative, and you didn't answer the question. Can an elf effigy ride?



I'd argue fly works on constructs. They maybe mindless but not completely mindless. How does it know your language? How can it perform any task if it's mindless? Obviously it has some sort of mind, as you are binding an unwilling earth elemental inside it (at least that's the case for golems).




A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions.

It knows 'language' because it is preprogrammed to respond to certain instructions in certain ways. After creation this programming does not change (bar tampering, though I'm not aware of any method). The effigy definition is unclear about whether you specify the programming or whether it is a property of the form that you are crafting, so there is a DM call there. In the former an effigy could be created that can use the fly spell, provided it was built that way. In the latter case it is unlikely that the instruction "fly over there" would make any sense. As far as I am aware, no elementals were harmed in the creation of this effigy. :smalltongue:

[RoboEmperor]

It knows 'language' because it is preprogrammed to respond to certain instructions in certain ways. After creation this programming does not change (bar tampering, though I'm not aware of any method). The effigy definition is unclear about whether you specify the programming or whether it is a property of the form that you are crafting, so there is a DM call there. In the former an effigy could be created that can use the fly spell, provided it was built that way. In the latter case it is unlikely that the instruction "fly over there" would make any sense. As far as I am aware, no elementals were harmed in the creation of this effigy. :smalltongue:

If you know how to fly with the fly spell, surely you can tell your golem to do that. It has some learning potential, otherwise how would it memorize your order and perform it til all eternity? But we all know, if we bring in real world science stuff (memory and learning), d&d fails :P

So rather than going through all that and debating how a magical setting made for gaming fits with real world concepts, the spell lets the guy fly, so let it fly, unless you intentionally want its huge size to be a draw back in your game, then don't let it fly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But where you gonna find and charm a hydra?

In a swamp. Says so right in the hydra entry; environment: warm marshes.

[Coidzor]

This is all great advice!

The wizard did pay the XP cost of 560 when creating the hydra

The wizard is not a power gamer or optimizer. Especially if you guys knew his history. Generalist wizard is pretty underwhelming compared to the other wizard builds I played with. But he did optimize on his effigy because he was worried the effigy would become a wasted investment.

It seems there are a few solutions:
1. Give the fighter magical equipment to be on-par with the hydra
2. Ask the wizard to pick a different effigy, at least for this game.
3. Have encounters fight on multiple fronts

That's the fun thing about Tier 1s, they can overpower others without planning on it.

I'd recommend going with beefing the Fighter up a bit and suggesting 1 or 2 other effigies for the wizard to have instead now.

[ace rooster]

If you know how to fly with the fly spell, surely you can tell your golem to do that. It has some learning potential, otherwise how would it memorize your order and perform it til all eternity? But we all know, if we bring in real world science stuff (memory and learning), d&d fails :P

So rather than going through all that and debating how a magical setting made for gaming fits with real world concepts, the spell lets the guy fly, so let it fly, unless you intentionally want its huge size to be a draw back in your game, then don't let it fly.

It has various local variables and states with fixed types to handle specific instructions. That is very different from learning potential. The definition of mindless is one of the few places where the rules are clear, concise, and precise. They are preprogrammed automota, and as such have defined responses to situations. Adding abilities does not extend the programming, so they will not use them.

Even without that, the obvious way to handle mindless is that they are dumb. Really, Really dumb. You say "fly over there", and it says "what's flying?". Unless the instruction is really obvious, and the creature has good reason to understand the instruction, they will not understand. An effigy hydra has no reason to understand what "fly" means, unless the programming comes from the creator rather than the concept "hydra", and the creator would have had to put it in deliberately.

[RoboEmperor]

It has various local variables and states with fixed types to handle specific instructions. That is very different from learning potential. The definition of mindless is one of the few places where the rules are clear, concise, and precise. They are preprogrammed automota, and as such have defined responses to situations. Adding abilities does not extend the programming, so they will not use them.

Even without that, the obvious way to handle mindless is that they are dumb. Really, Really dumb. You say "fly over there", and it says "what's flying?". Unless the instruction is really obvious, and the creature has good reason to understand the instruction, they will not understand. An effigy hydra has no reason to understand what "fly" means, unless the programming comes from the creator rather than the concept "hydra", and the creator would have had to put it in deliberately.

How do you fly when you get the fly spell cast on you? If you just think fly and you fly, then constructs can do that too.

"think fly up"
*construct flies up and hits the ceiling*
"That's how you fly, now think fly forward"
*construct flies into the wall*
"Now, fly over there and smash that bag"
etc.

[strangebloke]

I believe you're misunderstanding my sentiment. I don't believe either player is playing "right" or "wrong". I do believe, however, that when there's a power disparity the best solution tends to be empowering the underperformer rather than weaken the stronger member.

In addition to my belief that uplifting is typically better than downgrading; the fighter playing is the one who's not having fun. It's probably in everyone's best interest to have every player enjoy themselves. The wizard is enjoying himself, let him be. The fighter is not having fun, modify his character till he is.

I'll grant you that buffs are better than nerfs. I just know that generally, if people play a fighter, its because they want simplicity. 'Upgrading' their experience by forcing a re-roll into a class that's more complicated can be pretty painful for the player, and might not solve the issue at all.

Implementing one of the many fighter fixes like the ones seen on this forum would be a better solution than making him switch classes/archetypes entirely, IMO.

[Coidzor]

As the PCs approach the bridge that takes them across the border, they see a hastily made sign erected in front of it. "Beware," it says, "rust monster infestation ahead. Adventure at own risk." A DC20 Listen check will reveal roaring far off in the distance that the wizard identifies as coming from at least one Rust Dragon.

While they debate whether or not to leave, halflings steal the legs off the hydra and leave it on cinder blocks.

Well, at least you're not being so dirty as to introduce Kender into the setting just to get rid of it.

[atemu1234]

My maxim is, make players face the consequences of their in-character choices in character, but not their OOC choices. Certainly, don't make them face the other players' OOC choices.

Guy wants to play a fighter. Cool, but as DM you're going to have to work to keep him relevant. Other guy wants to play a wizard? Cool, but he needs to play nice. Any wizard who optimizes can trivialize any other party member that doesn't, even high tier ones. This is why so many DMs outright ban large lists of spells.

The guy here didn't optimize that much. But clearly the rest of the table is even worse. Still, his decisions shouldn't force another guy at the table to play something that he doesn't want to. Some people don't like warblades, and clerics do not feel like fighters.

So give the fighter something. Magic boots of flying or some other magic item that lets him keep up for a while. Give mech-mage something that's cool, but not as mean to the fighter.

In general, yeah, I would not have let a fighter in the same party as a wizard and cleric, unless I had a lot of faith in the guy. But forcing someone to re-roll a character leads to a lot of hurt feelings, in my experience.

Of course, if I could, I'd force everyone to play tiers 3 or 4.

That's fairly hypocritical. People shouldn't play samurai just because they're playing with a monk. He made as big an OOC choice by not optimizing as the wizard did by optimizing. Let him retrain. If he doesn't like that, oh well.

[Flickerdart]

You can learn to ride passibly in minutes easily (point nice horse in direction, ask to walk, not fall off).
Go teach a baby to ride a horse, and report back.

[ace rooster]

How do you fly when you get the fly spell cast on you? If you just think fly and you fly, then constructs can do that too.

"think fly up"
*construct flies up and hits the ceiling*
"That's how you fly, now think fly forward"
*construct flies into the wall*
"Now, fly over there and smash that bag"
etc.

What do you think mindless means? If there is one command that they definately cannot follow, it is "think". It is conceivable that you could communicate to it how to interact with the fly spell, but it really depends on how the fly spell works.

Also, your attempt to teach it what "fly" means would fail, as this is an example of learning, and any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#intelligence) At best it would ask "what does fly mean again?".



The issue with teaching babies to ride is not competance, but the fact that it is very difficult to seperate riding from heights. Would you rather teach your toddler to ride a 4ft pony on the ground, or walk, if they have to learn on a ledge 2ft wide with a 3ft drop either side? Riding is easier, but more dangerous. Most stables will refuse to put a child under 4 on a pony for insurance reasons, but it is not uncommon to see very young children on ponies among families that have them.

[Coidzor]

The problems of flying hydrae effigies are rather ancillary to the real issue, though. At the end of the day, they're exactly as capable as the DM wants them to be.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem is that it's a hydra, with the ridiculous "all heads attack as a single attack action" that, afaik, no other monster has. It makes them far more dangerous than other enemies of similar CR, so it's no wonder the fighter is getting overshadowed.

And that's something you need to take up with the wizard player, because that is NOT a roleplaying choice. That's pure optimization.
And while optimization is certainly not inherently bad it is rather rude to do it to that extent in a group with fighters or similarly weak classes.
A certain amount of restraint should be expected from the players who are better at optimizing, since the goal is for everyone to have fun. Not just him.

He'll still dominate with another effigy (because wizard), but at least the fighter won't feel totally useless. If that "ruins his fun" he's a munchkin, plain and simple.

And nobody needs a munchkin at their table, so if he threatens to walk over the issue i'd let him.

[zergling.exe]

The problem is that it's a hydra, with the ridiculous "all heads attack as a single attack action" that, afaik, no other monster has. It makes them far more dangerous than other enemies of similar CR, so it's no wonder the fighter is getting overshadowed.

And that's something you need to take up with the wizard player, because that is NOT a roleplaying choice. That's pure optimization.
And while optimization is certainly not inherently bad it is rather rude to do it to that extent in a group with fighters or similarly weak classes.
A certain amount of restraint should be expected from the players who are better at optimizing, since the goal is for everyone to have fun. Not just him.

He'll still dominate with another effigy (because wizard), but at least the fighter won't feel totally useless. If that "ruins his fun" he's a munchkin, plain and simple.

And nobody needs a munchkin at their table, so if he threatens to walk over the issue i'd let him.

This. Totally this.

My DM threw three 7 headed hydras at my group for a quest. After killing them I animated them as zombies. Got some use using them on their previous hag masters, but after that they haven't been used too much, mostly as carry the loot stuff. Currently they are carrying around display mannequins with ancient clothing on them.

The rest of my group consists of a fighter/paladin, a rogue/swashbuckler, a fighter/rogue and their fighter/rogue cohort, a scout/order of the bow initiate, and a straight monk. It really depends on how the player makes use of their hydra minion.

[lord_khaine]

In a swamp. Says so right in the hydra entry; environment: warm marshes.

Good luck finding the swamp that actually contains a Hydra and not just plenty of leeches and stirges.

[Coidzor]

I may have missed something, but constructs are very vulnerable to illusions, so a simple Silent Image spell could very well counter the hydra effigy.


Good luck finding the swamp that actually contains a Hydra and not just plenty of leeches and stirges.

Survival, Gather Information, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Nature, Hirelings, Divinations, calling the DM on not being upfront about things and being an ass if they block all of that. :smalltongue:

[Milodiah]

Look, if the party has made an enemy in the campaign that you as the DM expect to keep credible up until the endgame, then that enemy is scared ****less of this hydra aberration and is going to draw on all of his/her/its/their resources to smash it into oblivion. An average band of adventurers may not bother him/her/it/them enough to send an overleveled troubleshooter posse after them. An average band of adventurers with the D&D equivalent of an Abrams tank is going to provoke the D&D equivalent of a Warthog tank-buster. It really is as as simple as that to me. Then again I'm an evil GM.


And honestly, the way I handle tier-one magic antics is gauging the median cheesiness of the group in question (usually by not running the first D&D game of the group, though that's only hypothetical because I realize I have always run the first campaign) and then scaling the world in question to that level. I refuse to believe that the player characters are the first people in history to come up with all this RAW-exploiting absurdity. Think you're so clever selling the results of Wall of Iron? Please, that's how we get all our iron. Think your [insert magical minionmancy scheme here] is unique and powerful? Have a look at the King's military, your stuff is child's play. But on the other hand, if my casters are content to throw increasingly big fireballs at bad guys, then I avoid all this nonsense and keep it within 10% or so of that, depending obviously on the intended threat level of the NPC caster in question.

[Spindrift]

Think if it were me, I'd require a new repair spell that works like regenerate in order to fix the severed head issue, or lots of downtime manually repairing the machine. That way it can lose some heads that can't be fixed mid-adventure, but can be patched up during downtime between missions, or he has to shell out for a 7th level spell scroll to fix it faster. Even if it's knocked down to 1 head, it still has reach and provides just as much cover.

Incorporeal enemies would be immune to the effigy unless someone casts magic fang on it, I think. If the fighter finds a ghost touch weapon or some magic weapon oil of ghost touch it'd let him feel more useful there, and the cleric too, maybe.

A silence spell directed at the hydra or caster might make it impossible to give it further commands, causing it to do nothing once it's current command is completed.

Stormy weather could make it hard for the machine to hear the commands being shouted at it. I imagine the construct doesn't have a great listen modifier.

I wouldn't constantly throw things at the group that make the hydra useless though, cause it'll feel a lot like you're picking on the wizard.
Better to have some challenges where the hydra's strengths are less prominent, and some where they shine.

[Barbarian Horde]

Dungeons... can a huge type creature fit in it? Force the wizard to leave it behind.

this is from that template
Base Attack Bonus: As a construct, an effigy creature's base attack bonus is equal to 3/4 its Hit Dice (as a cleric).

Special Qualities: An effigy loses all the special qualities of the base creature, but it gains the special qualities given below.

Saving Throws: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/3 HD
It's saves are low. Cast crowd control magic. Such as blizzard. Use scrying to maintain vision on your party. Then have the wizards cast channel sound blast while their visibility is 0. Wall of thorns is also another spell. Honestly to me it wouldnt matter if it got to go first. :smallbiggrin: My method might just TPW them. I wouldnt give it a target for the first round.
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/effigy.shtml
Read through this and make sure all the stats, all its saves, everything in general it correct.

Though I would ask the player if they would compromise. If the party isn't getting to do anything at all it can't be fun. So ask if he is willing to switch to another effigy. Something that isnt so strong it cast a big shadow on the party.

[Spindrift]

If he agrees to swap to a less impressive construct, you could let him sell the current one for a profit, thus giving him funds to build a new minion and maybe put some wealth into other gear.